Why I Support Marty by Mark Bunker

Zhongjianren

Patron with Honors
Why I Support Marty by Mark Bunker

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/07/27/why-i-support-marty-guest-editorial/

Why I Support Marty by Mark Bunker

Posted on July 27, 2011 by martyrathbun09| 105 Comments


Whatever Mark Bunker’s views, and whatever I may think of them, Mark Bunker is a decent, honest guy. I thought so when I saw him in Clearwater in 2000 when he was the video guy for the Lisa McPherson trust. I thought so when I saw his famous video beseeching Anyonymous to tone it down a few years back (garnering him the handle Wise Beard Man – or Wisebeardman). I thought so when he volunteered to convert my original trashy one page webpage into a WordPress blog format. And I think so today. Bunker has kind of taken on the role of Little Switzerland, or Big Switzerland depending on your point of view, in the ecclectic community of ex-Radical Corporate Scientologists and never-Scientologists protesting corrupt cultic practices carried out in the name of Scientology.

Guest Editorial


by Mark Bunker, aka Wisebeardman


It may be surprising to some to see comments from me on Marty’s
blog but I feel kind of at home here as a visitor. I don’t agree
with everything Marty writes but I enjoy reading what he has to say
and I’ve learned a lot from following his posts. I’m also indebted
to him for exposing a lot of newsworthy stories since this blog
launched. It’s seems like virtually every day there’s some tidbit
that rumbles the ground at the Int Base. Enough tremors keep
happening and he might actually shatter the locks on the doors and
free people like Heber Jentzsch from captivity.


I’ve been speaking out about Scientology’s deceptive and abusive
side since 1999. In 2000 and 2001, I moved to Clearwater, Florida
to work with Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks at the Lisa McPherson
Trust. We may not have gone about it the best way possible (okay,
we didn’t) but we were there because we wanted to draw attention to
abusive practices like disconnection that are still hurting members
of Scientology today. Even then, we were open to working with
people like Greg and Debra Barnes who still believed in Hubbard and
the tech but wanted to get their message out that management was
squirreling the tech, forcing six-month sec checks on people doing
OT VII and declaring them Suppressive for daring to quote Hubbard’s
policy to back up their charges.


http://www.xenutv.com/blog/?cat=176

I bumped into Marty once during that time and encountered Mike
Rinder on several occasions, notably during the first picket the
LMT did after opening our doors. Bob’s message that night was
“Reform Scientology now. Dump David Miscavige.” Years later, Marty
would tell me that another message that stuck with him from that
time was “It’s Safe to Look, It’s Safe to Talk.”


Bob Minton faced a global assault from Scientology until he
couldn’t take it any more and caved. Bob made mistakes, as we all
do, and Scientology exploited those mistakes. I witnessed the
assault and the heavy toll it took on him. He was a good and
decent man and he was my hero. I recently sat down and interviewed
Mike Rinder who oversaw the campaign against Bob. Here’s a very
brief clip from that interview:


[video=youtube;l67gmnJScLA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l67gmnJScLA[/video]


There are many critics of Scientology who can’t forgive Mike and
Marty for their actions while in Scientology. I’m sure there are
many Scientologists who will never forgive me for speaking out
against Scientology. I’d rather look past that black and white
attitude and find a way to communicate and curb the abuses that
brought Bob Minton into this fight to begin with and that are now
being hurled against people like Mike and Marty.


I said I felt at home here at this blog. Part of the reason is
that I set this blog up for Marty. I did it because I wanted to
hear what he had to say. He had a webpage up that was hard to read
and I’m sure was hard for him to update. I took a couple hours one
Sunday afternoon just taking the information he had published and
putting it into this blog format. I sent him the link and told him
I’d be happy to walk him through using the site if he wanted to do
so. We had never talked or met and I wasn’t sure he would welcome
my intrusion but he liked the idea so for a couple weeks I answered
his questions and cleaned up the formatting on posts he made, then
the training wheels were off and he was up and running on his own.
Since then he has dwarfed my site’s readership and changed
Scientology’s landscape, and I learn new things almost every day.


I’m currently making a feature film documentary about Scientology
called Knowledge Report. The basic point of the film is that people
can believe anything they want but Scientology doesn’t have the
right to behave anyway it chooses. I’ve interviewed several
Independent Scientologists and plan to interview more soon. You
may not agree with every aspect of the film but I think overall you
should be happy with the finished product. Here’s a little sample
of some of the people who have agreed to be part of the film:


[video=youtube;UyVMwz51ybE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyVMwz51ybE[/video]


The film is being financed through donations at IndieGoGo.com. If
you’d be interested in helping, you can make a donation here:


http://www.indiegogo.com/knowledge-report


If you have suggestions for the film you can contact me at
[email protected]. I look forward to your feedback.


UPDATE 9:36 pm central: Village Voice weighs in:
http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/2011/07/scientology_apo.php
 

Veda

Sponsor
I'm pleased to see that Mark Bunker is making a new film. His earlier work has been excellent and I see no reason why his new work should not be excellent also.

I'm happy that Marty Rathbun has exposed (at least some of) Miscavige's abuses; I'm not happy that Marty Rathbun continues to lie so as to protect the "good name" of Hubbard, and the reputation of Hubbardism.
 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiO7zt83s0c&feature=related

This KR by James Randi on loaded language - is a complete waste of time and should not be in Marks otherwise fine KR film. The reason is the point he is making, that Hubbard is using a specialized language is a sign of a cult is completely off the mark.

Here - read this - it sounds just like cult speak.

"More ways to skin a cat. I gave you a simple one for these circumstances.
For instance:
1) You could use a section plane > Create Group from Slice > explode this group in proper geometrical context.
2) SU8-pro has extra 'Solid' tools to perform [Outer Shell / Intersect / Union / ISubtract / Trim / and Split] operations on two solid groups or components.
3) There are plugins that may help (boolean plugin)."

It is from an online help forum on a 3D drawing program called Sketchup. I guess you could call Sketchup users a cult, but any field of study has it's own language.

So Mark, please cut this guy out - it lessens your argument.

Mimsey
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
Much as I love Mark, I don't share his attitude to the two cultists, Rinder and Rathbun. For that reason I won't make any contribution to funding the film.

Cof$ = Cult
Freezone = Cult
Independents = Cult
Scientolgy = Cult
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiO7zt83s0c&feature=related

This KR by James Randi on loaded language - is a complete waste of time and should not be in Marks otherwise fine KR film. The reason is the point he is making, that Hubbard is using a specialized language is a sign of a cult is completely off the mark.

Here - read this - it sounds just like cult speak.

"More ways to skin a cat. I gave you a simple one for these circumstances.
For instance:
1) You could use a section plane > Create Group from Slice > explode this group in proper geometrical context.
2) SU8-pro has extra 'Solid' tools to perform [Outer Shell / Intersect / Union / ISubtract / Trim / and Split] operations on two solid groups or components.
3) There are plugins that may help (boolean plugin)."

It is from an online help forum on a 3D drawing program called Sketchup. I guess you could call Sketchup users a cult, but any field of study has it's own language.

So Mark, please cut this guy out - it lessens your argument.

Mimsey

I agree it's not a point that has much validity.
 

TrevAnon

Big List researcher
I must say I applaud Marty for letting through my own and others comments being more or less critic against the church policies.

http://markrathbun.wordpress.com/2011/07/27/why-i-support-marty-guest-editorial/#comment-137999 and below (had to simplify the layout and leave out a few things to be able to present it well here):

Michael | July 27, 2011 at 5:45 am | Reply

I do not share the openhearted welcome that Mark Bunker and his documentary is receiving here although I agree with the factual data (and know first-hand that it is true) and with the idea that we welcome all viewpoints. I welcome all viewpoints but there is still the concept of the optimal solution and the greatest good. Measured against those criteria Bunkers’ work is a flunk and he can count me out as his reader in the future. The data he is presenting in this documentary is true and it is terrible and must stop but the data is lopsided as one hugely important point is totally omitted: the workability of the Tech. The documentary simply discredits Scientology further. There is no concern for the individual people out there who could improve their lives with Scientology, for now using Independent auditors and courses. There is no mention of the enormous benefit of application of Scientology if it is properly used. Bunkers just wants to throw the baby with dirty water. What solution does he suggest? No solution. Just “lets kill Scientology”. I just attested Clear recently. I love it! Just because everybody can have their viewpoints it doesn’t mean I want to see them all or agree with anybody’s hidden agenda.

TrevAnon | July 27, 2011 at 1:46 pm | Reply
May I ask, have you seen anything of the documentary already besides the clips Bunkers has shown us on his own site or on YouTube?

Cat Daddy | July 27, 2011 at 3:46 pm | Reply
It is not Bunkers job to prove anything works. That task my friend is yours.

atcause | July 27, 2011 at 11:44 pm | Reply
It was proven many years ago that auditing, Dianetics & Scientology is true and works.

Mr. Fancy | July 28, 2011 at 5:21 am | Reply
For you atcause, perhaps. For the scientific community, it has not.

I respectfully suggest that you, and other Scientologists, start looking into what constitutes scientific proof, including repeatable results by independent parties. If something is truly there, then this should not be an insurmountable task.

But the work has *not* been done.

TrevAnon | July 28, 2011 at 6:40 am | Reply
Can you give as a link to an article in a scientific journal?

Cat Daddy | July 28, 2011 at 6:50 am | Reply
Lead by example, be the proof of it yourself. People onley tend to believe it when they SEE it.

Also posted here: http://forums.whyweprotest.net/threads/why-i-support-marty-by-mark-bunker.91531/page-3#post-1831080

LOL @valkov comments that were inserted after I made this post
 
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Captain Koolaid

Patron Meritorious
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiO7zt83s0c&feature=related

This KR by James Randi on loaded language - is a complete waste of time and should not be in Marks otherwise fine KR film. The reason is the point he is making, that Hubbard is using a specialized language is a sign of a cult is completely off the mark.

Here - read this - it sounds just like cult speak.

"More ways to skin a cat. I gave you a simple one for these circumstances.
For instance:
1) You could use a section plane > Create Group from Slice > explode this group in proper geometrical context.
2) SU8-pro has extra 'Solid' tools to perform [Outer Shell / Intersect / Union / ISubtract / Trim / and Split] operations on two solid groups or components.
3) There are plugins that may help (boolean plugin)."

It is from an online help forum on a 3D drawing program called Sketchup. I guess you could call Sketchup users a cult, but any field of study has it's own language.

So Mark, please cut this guy out - it lessens your argument.

Mimsey

I don't see anything wrong with it, the Scientology lingo is definitely used to indoctrinate. First of all: You can't compare Hubbardian verbal concoctions with special terms used in some particular field. Secondly, Hubbard changed the meaning of many regular terms to change the thought processes of Scientologists: Critical thought, individuation, reasonable. Language does indeed provide a very clear hint that some group is in fact a cult.
 

Student of Trinity

Silver Meritorious Patron
Technical disciplines use specialized language for specialized concepts, for which no convenient terminology exists within ordinary speech. Scientology uses some specialized language for its own specialized concepts, but it also uses a lot of special jargon for everyday concepts. That's the point. Scientologists end up describing perfectly ordinary activities using Scientology's esoteric vocabulary, to the point where it seems they can hardly use a restroom without reaffirming the genius of L. Ron Hubbard.
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
Technical disciplines use specialized language for specialized concepts, for which no convenient terminology exists within ordinary speech. Scientology uses some specialized language for its own specialized concepts, but it also uses a lot of special jargon for everyday concepts. That's the point. Scientologists end up describing perfectly ordinary activities using Scientology's esoteric vocabulary, to the point where it seems they can hardly use a restroom without reaffirming the genius of L. Ron Hubbard.

That's very true, but more of a point of amusement or bewilderment than something somebody should be alarmed about which is why I agreed with Mimsey. I was in Alabama last year and to hear people there greet each other with "Roll Tide" was also bizarre and baffling. But the only conclusion you can come up with is that people do stupid stuff.
 

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
This KR by James Randi on loaded language - is a complete waste of time and should not be in Marks otherwise fine KR film. The reason is the point he is making, that Hubbard is using a specialized language is a sign of a cult is completely off the mark.

Here - read this - it sounds just like cult speak.

"More ways to skin a cat. I gave you a simple one for these circumstances.
For instance:
1) You could use a section plane > Create Group from Slice > explode this group in proper geometrical context.
2) SU8-pro has extra 'Solid' tools to perform [Outer Shell / Intersect / Union / ISubtract / Trim / and Split] operations on two solid groups or components.
3) There are plugins that may help (boolean plugin)."

It is from an online help forum on a 3D drawing program called Sketchup. I guess you could call Sketchup users a cult, but any field of study has it's own language.

So Mark, please cut this guy out - it lessens your argument.

Mimsey

You need to read moar Mimsey.

Cultic language is designed to cut people off from their surroundings it all part of the milieu control that cults exercise to keep the flock from straying.

A specialized jargon to enable professionals is one thing - and inevitable. But Redefining common words, phrases into concepts that are foreign but related, minting new words and so on - yes, a vital part of cult control and very much should be in the movie
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
You need to read moar Mimsey.

Cultic language is designed to cut people off from their surroundings it all part of the milieu control that cults exercise to keep the flock from straying.

A specialized jargon to enable professionals is one thing - and inevitable. But Redefining common words, phrases into concepts that are foreign but related, minting new words and so on - yes, a vital part of cult control and very much should be in the movie

Like re-defining love as ARC, to remove it from the consciousness of the member. As we know, ARC is not love, but something entirely different...

"By 2050—earlier, probably—all real knowledge of Oldspeak will have disappeared. The whole literature of the past will have been destroyed. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Byron—they'll exist only in Newspeak versions, not merely changed into something different, but actually contradictory of what they used to be. Even the literature of the Party will change. Even the slogans will change. How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished? The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking—not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness."

-Orwell, 1984.
 

Thrak

Gold Meritorious Patron
You need to read moar Mimsey.

Cultic language is designed to cut people off from their surroundings it all part of the milieu control that cults exercise to keep the flock from straying.

A specialized jargon to enable professionals is one thing - and inevitable. But Redefining common words, phrases into concepts that are foreign but related, minting new words and so on - yes, a vital part of cult control and very much should be in the movie

I'm just looking at this from an editorial aspect Mick. It should be included IF you can prove that "Cultic language is designed to cut people off from their surroundings it all part of the milieu control that cults exercise to keep the flock from straying." You can't assume people know that or just state it as fact.

You would have to start with establishing that point based on a lot of precedents as opposed to opinions, and then it would make sense to give examples of looney Scio-Speak.

But still I watch that guy and can only come away with "look scientology is weird they use funny words". Just doesn't hold much water to me.
 

Smilla

Ordinary Human
SNIP:

But still I watch that guy and can only come away with "look scientology is weird they use funny words". Just doesn't hold much water to me.

I agree that the guy in the video didn't make a very convincing case, but the use of an altered language, and neologisms to manipulate people's thinking is real and quite well researched.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere_exposure_effect

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persuasion
 
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GoNuclear

Gold Meritorious Patron
And finally, here is another reason to support Mark Bunker ... you are a pair of jockey shorts in a plus size.

Pete
 
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