Why OTs behave so badly ?

[Gottabrain]

Yes, "these days" is just a turn of phrase but I think you'd have to admit that originally Auditors were only taking up Evil or Destructive Intentions ie. "Was there an Evil or Destructive Intention which prompted that overt?"

If the PC said something like "To be a good mother" in years gone by, the Auditor kept looking for the Evil Purpose, these days... I'm not so sure.

Panda, I was an FPRD comp a good year before I ever even went on the RPF, finished around 1984. THAT FPRD was fine except one glitch:
When I ran it on the 2D, problems in my marriage came up and I realized I didn't want to be married to my husband, wasn't in love.

It opened up an avalanche of emotions and things that got me in trouble at the time. No social restraints! And there was nothing wrong with the session!

I knew one RPFer who had miraculous, life-changing results on it. She was like a different person - better - stopped being a nasty battleaxe and was downright sweet.

But the majority had no long-term effect from it. It was torturous to me or anyone else who wanted to leave, though. I was the only one on the PAC RPF then who was already an FPRD comp on arrival. The bulk C/Sing of FPRD on all RPFers isn't about wins or gains.It is an administrative decision, aka, "if you are on the RPF, your FPRD must be faulty so we'll redo the whole thing plus hundreds of hours more and keep digging hard at it until you're a happy, compliant Ronbot again."

 

[Challenge]

Ergo those who left around 1980 were largely auditors. Those, who stayed, had done the PC route.

Carmelo, I think that is true.
I have had Flag NOTs people pick up my cans and begin telling me about their ARCx.
Pitiful, really.
Anyone who says they're an OT, Or even a Clear, who can't keep their own ruds in would have been better off doing something like Objectives, rather than OT levels.
( sorry, folks. That';s the way it is)

Challenge

 

[Panda Termint]

Sure, it may be true in some cases but you know what they say about generalities, right? Everyone in this house went the Training and Co Audit Route and we left in 2008. I suspect that the switch from accent on the Training Route to accent on the "Professional PC" Route has more to do with the CofS and it's greedy ways than it has to do with the individual scientologists. I know plenty of Auditor-Trained scios who have left the CofS as recently as the last few years.
Just sayin'... generalities won't do!

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Sure, it may be true in some cases but you know what they say about generalities, right? Everyone in this house went the Training and Co Audit Route and we left in 2008. I suspect that the switch from accent on the Training Route to accent on the "Professional PC" Route has more to do with the CofS and it's greedy ways than it has to do with the individual scientologists. I know plenty of Auditor-Trained scios who have left the CofS as recently as the last few years.
Just sayin'... generalities won't do!

's True, dat. I left in '81 and I was a 'pro-pc' as well as junior HCO staff at the mission.

I can also remember that as it seemed to me the active independent field back then contained a LOT of old timers, especially those who were already disaffected as of the late '70s. However many pro-auditors preferred to remain 'loyal' to the church & hubbard and demonstrated it by knuckling under to inqiuitous demands of the young toughs running the management takeover.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Leon]

Ergo those who left around 1980 were largely auditors. Those, who stayed, had done the PC route.

This is true.

 

[lotus]

Why OTs behave so badly ?​

Because they have gone OT ???​

Is it the right answer????

 

[RogerB]

Sure, it may be true in some cases but you know what they say about generalities, right? Everyone in this house went the Training and Co Audit Route and we left in 2008. I suspect that the switch from accent on the Training Route to accent on the "Professional PC" Route has more to do with the CofS and it's greedy ways than it has to do with the individual scientologists. I know plenty of Auditor-Trained scios who have left the CofS as recently as the last few years.
Just sayin'... generalities won't do!

Which or what generality, by whom, P?

I think Challenge was speaking in terms of an observation, as was I, of a generally observed scene. There are always little individual differences.

Challenge and I are talking, not about who has been leaving the Cof$, but issues of ease of case gain and why some folks get easier gains than others and what might be a likely why behind "OT bad behavior" due to screwed up or failed case handling.

As a general scene , what I have observed over the years, is that those who chose to take auditor training had a more causative attitude and mind-set about case . . . they know they could handle it in others and in/for self.

My observation, in general terms, is that those who took the PC route were more often effect of their case; and one key reason that I saw over and over again was that they lacked the underlying principles and data on what the hell they were trying to accomplish as well as how.

One OT who was my business partner in 1970 (original OT7) didn't know the Axioms, as an example much less any other tech truths he could have used, and wondered why he kept tripping on things.

But in many respects, it was an attitudinal thing I observed.

Auditors, generally, had the mind-set of being "solvers" . . . the PC route brigade were in the "solve me"/"fix me" mind-set.

It is no accident that the best management teams in the history of $cn were all trained auditors. The shit hit the management lines when those not trained as auditors were put in charge of managing. All of the successful GOWW in the '60's were at least old HPA's/HCA's plus many SHSBC grads. Ditto the old HASI Org and Continental managements. And this was the time of $cns greatest expansion.

The moment the SO un-auditor-trained management types took control and started dictating to the techie types, the stats of $cn expansion began to decline. Flag and/or AO stats stayed aloft only because if could feed off of the extant population.

DM, is noted as a poor student apart from not beginning his career as an auditor.

R

 

[Dulloldfart]

DM, is noted as a poor student apart from not beginning his career as an auditor.

R

He was on the IV internship at the age of 12/13.

I agree he wasn't an auditor in the SO.

Paul

 

[Panda Termint]

Which or what generality, by whom, P?

<snip...>

R

I was referring to this, Roger;

Originally Posted by CarmeloOrchards
Ergo those who left around 1980 were largely auditors. Those, who stayed, had done the PC route.

It may well be true as a personal observation but my comment about generalities (tongue-in-cheek, btw) stems from the use of the word "ergo" in the above sentence.

In Sydney, for example, some of the Auditors left in the 80s but most didn't. The people who seemed most "effect of scientological-conditions" at the time were the Professional PCs, my observation is that more of the PC-mentality dudes left at that time than did the Auditors.

I could be wrong, of course (and it wouldn't be the first time), I was too busy auditing to pay much attention to that namby-pamby, panty-waist dilettante stuff! (Joke!!!)

 

[RogerB]

I was referring to this, Roger;

Originally Posted by CarmeloOrchards
Ergo those who left around 1980 were largely auditors. Those, who stayed, had done the PC route.

It may well be true as a personal observation but my comment about generalities (tongue-in-cheek, btw) stems from the use of the word "ergo" in the above sentence.

In Sydney, for example, some of the Auditors left in the 80s but most didn't. The people who seemed most "effect of scientological-conditions" at the time were the Professional PCs, my observation is that more of the PC-mentality dudes left at that time than did the Auditors.

I could be wrong, of course (and it wouldn't be the first time), I was too busy auditing to pay much attention to that namby-pamby, panty-waist dilettante stuff! (Joke!!!)

Cool,

I'm with you on your's above and also on your observation.

It'd be interesting to be able to do a count of the type of folks that "left around '80" . . . . . and/or from where

Actually the blow up was following and because of the infamous mission-holder meeting in San Francisco, and while I was in NYC, the real exodus didn't occur till sometime around '82, and it was at that time mainly from the missions.

From what I could see at the time the staff at the missions were all hit by the Finance Police along with the mission execs . . . this led to departures including many mission public.

So, in actuality, it seems to me that at first glance it would look like the "techies" were the most vociferous departures but I would say the public folks eventually equaled or exceeded them in number. Particularly when Mayo set up to deliver on the West Coast.

In NYC when the Finance Police did their number in '83, it was the techies that stuck to their dedication and the PC type public that got out of the way and dropped off lines.

Rog

 

[Challenge]

Sure, it may be true in some cases but you know what they say about generalities, right? Everyone in this house went the Training and Co Audit Route and we left in 2008. I suspect that the switch from accent on the Training Route to accent on the "Professional PC" Route has more to do with the CofS and it's greedy ways than it has to do with the individual scientologists. I know plenty of Auditor-Trained scios who have left the CofS as recently as the last few years.
Just sayin'... generalities won't do!

"plenty of Auditor- Trained scios" is a generality. ( physician,heal thyself)
Also, training does not an Auditor make. Auditing makes an Auditor.
I know *plenty of* Checksheet completions who never audited more than the meager requirements for the completion on the Checksheet.
Just sayin'

 

[Panda Termint]

"plenty of Auditor- Trained scios" is a generality. ( physician,heal thyself)
Also, training does not an Auditor make. Auditing makes an Auditor.
I know *plenty of* Checksheet completions who never audited more than the meager requirements for the completion on the Checksheet.
Just sayin'

LOL, you're taking it seriously? OK! That was the gag I was making.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

"plenty of Auditor- Trained scios" is a generality. ( physician,heal thyself)
Also, training does not an Auditor make. Auditing makes an Auditor.
I know *plenty of* Checksheet completions who never audited more than the meager requirements for the completion on the Checksheet.
Just sayin'

IMHO academy training is a very good thing even if you are not going to be doing formal model session auditing. indeed i have a friend (currently awaiting trial for murder attempted murder and illegal possession of a firearm. jesus! i have acquired some interesting friends) plays saxophone who was telling me he'd buy a box of thirty reeds and be lucky if one of them was right and i've long thought you probably only get one real auditor out of thirty academy students. it's an art not a tech. many people can learn the technology of painting frescoes rare is the da vinci

sort of a moot point. if you haven't seen me say this on another thread i'll say it again. proper training is just fine but i would no more send someone into CoS than tell a horny dude to get fellatio from a cannibal

 

[Leon]

"plenty of Auditor- Trained scios" is a generality. ( physician,heal thyself)
Also, training does not an Auditor make. Auditing makes an Auditor.
I know *plenty of* Checksheet completions who never audited more than the meager requirements for the completion on the Checksheet.
Just sayin'

Ain't that the purest pure truth.

 

[RogerB]

In my view, the real issue is not only that they were trained: but the motivation and why behind their getting trained.

The trained auditors I refer to in my earlier posts here chose to get trained because they wanted to do something positive and help others, and such.

Some folks ended up "getting trained," for reasons other than to be part of the solution, and they still ended up as passengers in the system.

It's rather like the syndrome of those folks who joined staff to get their services and to be solved . . . . too often I observed them to be dead wood and the source of problems and hassles on staff. Whereas the guys who joined after they'd bought their own training and who were motivated as wanting to help and be solvers . . . these guys were the producers and never a problem.

Rog

 

[I told you I was trouble]

In my view, the real issue is not only that they were trained: but the motivation and why behind their getting trained.

The trained auditors I refer to in my earlier posts here chose to get trained because they wanted to do something positive and help others, and such.

Some folks ended up "getting trained," for reasons other than to be part of the solution, and they still ended up as passengers in the system.

It's rather like the syndrome of those folks who joined staff to get their services and to be solved . . . . too often I observed them to be dead wood and the source of problems and hassles on staff. Whereas the guys who joined after they'd bought their own training and who were motivated as wanting to help and be solvers . . . these guys were the producers and never a problem.

Rog

The solution to what?

What you are saying has been said by many for decades ... but only by scientologists to make themselves right for being wannabe therapists and of a cultic mindset prior to waking up and snapping out of it.​

 

[GreyLensman]

Scientologists don't find out BTs (Body Thetans) until the OT levels. Even then, your BTs have BTs and some BTs have drug problems and other stuff that make them hard to audit, especially when you are sitting alone in your locked room with confidential materials to audit your BTs on.

It is just so weird...you can't talk about any of this to anyone else, not even other OTs. You have to be sessionable (plenty of sleep and food so your metabolism is ok) and you really don't know how many BTs you have to audit or what is a BT or not.

I think the whole BT thing is a good way to blame all your problems on other entities infesting your body. I found it useful for avoiding responsibility and ducking security checks. Only OTs can audit OTs.

There are not many OT sec checkers around. Staff are at the bottom of the list for OT Sec Checks since there are OTs PAYing for 6 month checks. Sea Org (OT or PC) get the "I am not auditing you" gang bang security check so many have confirmed as black dianetics. (PC is sleep deprived and not fed; ie NOT SESSIONABLE per the cults own references). In most cases the E-meter is used as a lie detector by untrained
people who have no idea how to use it. In my opinion it is useless and the E-meter only works if you believe it can read your thoughts.

The idea you are infested with BTs (Body Thetans) who are responsible for every bad thought and action is a recipe for inducing "split personality" aka schizophrenia.

I think it was Ron's visualization of some phenomenon viewed through his (Schizophrenic???) look at life. I think whatever the fuck you are really doing certainly has an effect and maybe benefit.

But it may not be anything related to how the material is presented (the shore story... or the old man's delusion brought large and alive)

 

[Mark A. Baker]

The solution to what?

What you are saying has been said by many for decades ... but only by scientologists to make themselves right for being wannabe therapists and of a cultic mindset prior to waking up and snapping out of it.​

Try looking at it from a different perspective, one with a lengthy history spanning thousands of years: individuals of many cultures have for a very great time been concerned with their own spiritual development which they see as intimately involving the considerations & phenomena of mind which form the basis of their awareness & understanding. The pursuit of spiritual insight through self-examination of mental phenomena & personal considerations is an honest & honorable endeavor.

That is NOT something that 'professional therapists' have either a specialized or unique competence, nor a justifiable mandate for exclusive practice.



Mark A. Baker

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Try looking at it from a different perspective, one with a lengthy history spanning thousands of years: individuals of many cultures have for a very great time been concerned with their own spiritual development which they see as intimately involving the considerations & phenomena of mind which form the basis of their awareness & understanding. The pursuit of spiritual insight through self-examination of mental phenomena & personal considerations is an honest & honorable endeavor.

That is NOT something that 'professional therapists' have either a specialized or unique competence, nor a justifiable mandate for exclusive practice.



Mark A. Baker

My emphasis.

I'll try my very best Mark.

I promise.

​

 

[DagwoodGum]

If Scientology really delivered on the OT levels this is how badly OT's would be behaving. Imagine what DM could do if there was actually such a thing as OT?
Movie: Chronicle

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1810209515/info