Why Scientology and OTs are inherently fascist.

[wigee1]

dave , have realized this woman sillia has an amazing record collection , it just anit (sic )normal, who is this woman, grant

 

[Sindy]

dave , have realized this woman sillia has an amazing record collection , it just anit (sic )normal, who is this woman, grant

A record producer.

 

[wigee1]

I,m humble Grantt say no more, even if i spelt her name wrong,

 

[Enthetan]

The Nazis weren't socialist.

That was the name of the party when Hitler joined. It had about 30 members at the time.

After that it became his party and his agenda.

The Left that loved Hitler after the Ribbentrop/Molotov Pact was the Comintern, and this was done on direct orders from Stalin.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Hitler described his viewpoint as:

" ‘Socialist’ I define from the word ‘social’ meaning in the main ‘social equity.’ A Socialist is one who serves the common good without giving up his individuality or personality or the product of his personal efficiency.

"Our adopted term ‘Socialist’ has nothing to do with Marxian Socialism. Marxism is anti-property; true socialism is not. Marxism places no value on the individual, or individual effort, of efficiency; true Socialism values the individual and encourages him in individual efficiency, at the same time holding that his interests as an individual must be in consonance with those of the community. All great inventions, discoveries, achievements were first the product of an individual brain. It is charged against me that I am against property, that I am an atheist. Both charges are false.

​

While companies technically stayed in private hands, the government increasingly dictated how they were run, what they produced, and what wages they paid. Over time, the distinction between Nazi-regulated companies and Soviet-run companies became more and more academic.

In both systems, the individual was the property of the State, and was compelled to serve the interests of the State in all things.

Comparing the body counts between National Socialism and Communism, the Communists' hands had far more blood on them, and this was the case everywhere that Communism was tried.

 

[Enthetan]

but given the extremist libertarian attitudes frequently expressed by hubbard and many of the scientologists I've known who appeared to be parroting hubbard, I'd be more inclined to make an argument along such lines were I so motivated.


Mark A. Baker

I agree with most of what you said, but disagree on Hubbard being libertarian. He wanted to be free of government regulation, BUT he was unwilling to grant similar freedom to Scientologists to be free of HIS control.

 

[Enthetan]

Some of what you say above, I agree with but are you not mistaking Scientology's stated aims with its actual actions? I wish you would be so motivated as to make the argument that Scientology is more along the lines of Libertarianism. I would love to hear that argument.

I am not stating my political bent here but would be curious to know what libertarian views you find extreme.

It would have been more accurate if TAJ had said that Scientologists behaved like fascists rather than that they actually were fascists but isn't that splitting hairs? At the beginning of the OP he stated that he was over simplifying a more complex idea for the sake of discussion. Me, I can allow for less than a complete literal application of the ideas expressed and can relate.

It would be more accurate to say that Hubbard and Scientology were totalitarian in nature, in the sense of

totalitarianism, Mussolini, Benito [Credit: H. Roger-Viollet]form of government that theoretically permits no individual freedom and that seeks to subordinate all aspects of the individual’s life to the authority of the government. Italian dictator Benito Mussolini coined the term totalitario in the early 1920s to describe the new fascist state of Italy, which he further described as: “All within the state, none outside the state, none against the state.” By the beginning of World War II, “totalitarian” had become synonymous with absolute and oppressive single-party government.
​

Scientology, particularly after the creation of the SO, has been increasingly totalitarian in nature, in the expectation that individuals exist to serve the Group, that only the Group's goals are legitimate, and all the individual's time and assets are the property of the Group.

 

[Type4_PTS]

Scientology, particularly after the creation of the SO, has been increasingly totalitarian in nature, in the expectation that individuals exist to serve the Group, that only the Group's goals are legitimate, and all the individual's time and assets are the property of the Group.

I agree. It more like a libertarian's nightmare!

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

Hubbard also said the best government was a benevolent monarchy, but my question was when I read that was this: what do you have after the benevolent monarch passes away? I think in it's actions Scientology is a dictatorship, plain and simple. There are no rights given to the individual, they are suborned to the fearless leader's visionary goals.

Mimsey

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

I always wondered if Hubbard thought of himself as this benevolent monarch - and when I was in, I thought perhaps he was one. Such a fool was I. Mimsey

 

[Veda]

L. Ron Hubbard, speaking to Scientologists: "We own this planet."

I agree with most of what you said, but disagree on Hubbard being libertarian. He wanted to be free of government regulation, BUT he was unwilling to grant similar freedom to Scientologists to be free of HIS control.

Hubbard, himself, wanted to be free of government regulation and taxation, but also wanted to be the government.

In 1951 he published the Hubbard Chart of Human Evaluation and Tone Scale, adding (as a kind of 'fine print' asterisk, as he was prone to do in his sneaky teachings) that one handy way of identifying some one's position on the Hubbard Tone Scale is to note his or her attitude toward Dianetics (and Hubbard).

For those with a disapproving attitude, and who refused to change that attitude, isolation from society, and even extermination, would occur.

This would create a society free of the low toned, and allow the remaining up toned and Hubbard-approving population to enjoy greater freedoms.

That's a very novel form of "libertarianism."

"Somebody someday will say 'This is illegal'. By then be sure the Orgs say what is legal or not." L. Ron Hubbard, 1966

I can remember Scientotogists who thought of themselves as "Libertarians." They wanted less regulation for themselves and Scientology, and also wanted a Scientology planet, where the anti-Scientologists would be weeded out and removed from society, although that latter part was kept in the background, but it was always there as a condition of the "Libertarian" society they envisioned.

 

[Enthetan]

L. Ron Hubbard, speaking to Scientologists: "We own this planet."



Hubbard, himself, wanted to be free of government regulation and taxation, but also wanted to be the government.

In 1951 he published the Hubbard Chart of Human Evaluation and Tone Scale, adding (as a kind of 'fine print' asterisk, as he was prone to do in his sneaky teachings) that one handy way of identifying some one's position on the Hubbard Tone Scale is to note his or her attitude toward Dianetics (and Hubbard).

For those with a disapproving attitude, and who refused to change that attitude, isolation from society, and even extermination, would occur.

This would create a society free of the low toned, and allow the remaining up toned and Hubbard-approving population to enjoy greater freedoms.

That's a very novel form of "libertarianism."

"Somebody someday will say 'This is illegal'. By then be sure the Orgs say what is legal or not." L. Ron Hubbard, 1966

I can remember Scientotogists who thought of themselves as "Libertarians." They wanted less regulation for themselves and Scientology, and also wanted a Scientology planet, where the anti-Scientologists would be weeded out and removed from society, although that latter part was kept in the background, but it was always there as a condition of the "Libertarian" society they envisioned.

It's the collectivist fantasy. A world where the "planners" can set up their ideal world, free of constraints caused by needing the approval or consent of the people they intend to "plan" for.

A planned society will always be attractive to those with the arrogance to think that they will be invited to be members of the "planning" class. In real life, the collectivist "planning class" winds up consisting of those most willing to destroy anyone who stands in the way of their ambition.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Why Scientology and OTs are inherently fascist.

Scientology, in or out of the Church of Scientology, is inherently fascist.

To demonstrate my point I have to draw on something written in the late 1940s.

But it wasn’t written about Scientology or Dianetics.

In the late 1940s two philosophers asked this question: How come, just when civilization was at its most sophisticated, democratic and scientific level, did society produce the barbarism of fascism in general and Nazism in particular?

It was a deep work, but I’m going to try and cut to the chase and how it relates to Scientology.

Their idea is that the individual who seeks power, whether the aristocrats of the past or the leaders of capitalism today, or those in power or seeking power, must differentiate themselves from the others in society.

They have to maintain to themselves that “I am not like them” (meaning others).

Now I am over-simplifying a detailed work.

But the idea is that the one who seeks power must differentiate themselves from those they wish to control.

They must maintain a different idea of self-understanding.

The ruler must think “I alone am in control of myself. My ego or self or mind is in control of my body. That’s not the case for those that are beneath me.”

The problem is that modern scientific rationality has defined this rational ego or self, emptying it of concrete values, sentimental commitments, and religious metaphysics, leaving only a supremely powerful instrumentally rational center of power, whose sense of self flourishes in separating it from all others.

The person becomes an ego that can do anything but believes in nothing.

They go on to say that the more you base social order on reason alone, the more you discover than reason has nothing substantive to say morally.

The more the modern scientific consciousness becomes sophisticated, the more in believes in nothing.

And when it believes in nothing, it is led to use other human beings as objects for them to use to obtain their means.

This is how I view OTs and the idea of being above the other humans.

The moral beliefs of others are discounted and there is no restraint on the OTs or the Church in getting what they want.

And even those in the Church who are beneath them are objects to be used.

So long as you have a person who believes himself to be above others (not just better at things but above them in quality of being) you get someone whose operating basis will not be to work with others for consensus but instead will use others as a means toward his own ends.

It is what the Church of Scientology does; it is what OTs strive to be able to do.

You can see remnants on this board, even from exes and definitely from trolls, whose smug self-certainty about how much better they are than others.

But it is even clearer in the actions and activities of believers in the states of OT.

There are not all entirely fascists, but even the kind ones believe they are special and above the rest.

They may be of good manners, but I would argue that is their form of manipulation rather than a sincere belief in equality.

The Anabaptist Jacques

yes...

what you describe is of "the left hand path"

do you know anything of "the right hand path"?

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

L. Ron Hubbard, speaking to Scientologists: "We own this planet."

Hubbard, himself, wanted to be free of government regulation and taxation, but also wanted to be the government.

I don't know why, but that picture sure makes him look a lot like some head of state. The suit, the pose, the look of what, disdain? Grim determination? The hand on the globe. Doesn't make you all warm and fuzzy that this is man's best friend, does it? It is a self portrait isn't it? Mimsey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

I don't know why, but that picture sure makes him look a lot like some head of state. The suit, the pose, the look of what, disdain? Grim determination? The hand on the globe. Doesn't make you all warm and fuzzy that this is man's best friend, does it? It is a self portrait isn't it? Mimsey

head of state?

it makes him look like auric goldfinger

and i've always believed gert frobe won that role for his resemblance to ron and that one aspect of the screenplay was a poison pen examination of the character of our beloved founder

 

[Mimsey Borogrove]

You could be right! Mimsey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

i often see, and perhaps i am observing or perhaps i am projecting, the influence of ron's writings or other allusion and criticism of his work in flicks.

e.g. "the incredibles" with a closet superhero named freezone who can blow ice from his mouth and escaped danger blowing out an ice bridge which he crossed

 

[Commander Birdsong]

and there was some flick i just caught a piece of it in passing one day but the scene i saw caught my eye. there was some dude and a chick in a car and something going on with them and it cut to a weirdo scene in a warehouse with rows of common everyday people hung from a rack in a sort of transparent gauzy cocoon. waddling among the rows was a roly-poly clown who takes out a crazy twisted pipette, sticks it into one of the pods and sucks red through the tubes convolutions, gulps some down and smacks his lips with a big grin. then it cuts back to the car

there's no end to the bloodsucking clowns in this world but i still flashed on CoS. if anyone recognizes this scene and can tell me the name of the flick i'd like to further examine it

 

[Enthetan]

and there was some flick i just caught a piece of it in passing one day but the scene i saw caught my eye. there was some dude and a chick in a car and something going on with them and it cut to a weirdo scene in a warehouse with rows of common everyday people hung from a rack in a sort of transparent gauzy cocoon. waddling among the rows was a roly-poly clown who takes out a crazy twisted pipette, sticks it into one of the pods and sucks red through the tubes convolutions, gulps some down and smacks his lips with a big grin. then it cuts back to the car

there's no end to the bloodsucking clowns in this world but i still flashed on CoS. if anyone recognizes this scene and can tell me the name of the flick i'd like to further examine it

The movie was "Killer Klowns From Outer Space"

 

[Commander Birdsong]

The movie was "Killer Klowns From Outer Space"

thanx ET

have you seen the flick? does it click as a CoS spoof?

i believe the original "invasion of the bodysnatchers" was commentary on moscow's infiltration of american and western intelligentsia and i believe the recent remake was pointed at CoS

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Here is something I posted here a while back which expands on my point:


In 1995, Umberto eco gave a speech at Columbia Univesity commemorating the 50th anniversary of the defeat of fascism.

In the speech, he listed 14 indicators of what he called “Eternal Fascism” or Ur-Fascism”, that is, fascist traits which are common to all forms of fascism. Eco said that fascism in the future would be different from the past on specific points and issues, but these general points are common to all forms of fascism.

I have shortened the description of each point. The italics are his, and I have put his words in quotation marks.

When I read this for the first time about twelve years ago I realized that Scientology by its nature was fascist.

See if any of these points look like Scientology to you.

As Eco put it “But all you need is one of them to be present, and a Fascist nebula will begin to coagulate.”

1. “The first characteristic of Ur-Fascism is cult of tradition.” Traditionalism, he explains, is an idea older than fascism, but the cult of tradition combines religious ideas that contradict each other but all are said to reveal original truth. He then explains “Consequently, there can be no advancement of learning. The truth has already been announced once and for all, and all we can do is continue interpreting its obscure message.”

2. “Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism.” He goes on to explain that ideas like democracy and equality and freedom “and the Age of Reason were seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense, Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”

3. “Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action‘s sake. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes. …suspicion of intellectual life has always been a symptom of Ur-Fascism. The official Fascist intellectuals were mainly committed to accusing modern culture and the liberal intelligentsia of having abandoned traditional values.”

4. No form of [Ur-Fascism] can accept criticism. The critical spirit makes distinctions, and distinguishing is a sign of modernity. In modern culture, the scientific community sees dissent as a tool with which to promote the advancement of learning. For Ur-Fascism, dissent is betrayal.”

5. “Dissent is moreover a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows and seeks a consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference.”

6. “Ur-Fascism springs from individual or social frustration.” He goes on to say that it will “appeal to the frustrated middle classes.”

7. “At the root of Ur-Fascist psychology lies the obsession with conspiracies, preferable international ones. The disciples must feel they are under siege.”

8. The disciples must feel humiliated by the enemy’s vaunted wealth and power. But the disciples must none the less feel they can defeat the enemy. Thus, the enemy is at once too strong and too weak. Fascist regimes are doomed to lose their wars, because they are constitutionally incapable of making an objective assessment of the enemy’s strength.”

9. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, a ‘life for struggle.’ Pacifism is therefore collusion with the enemy.”

10. Scorn for the weak. Ur-Fascism cannot do without preaching a ‘popular elitism.’ Every individual belongs to the best people in the world, party members are the best citizens, and every citizen can (or ought to be) become a party member. The leader, who is well aware that his power has not been attained by delegation but was taken by force, also knows his power is based on the weakness of the masses, who are so weak as to need and deserve a ‘dominator.’ Since the group is organized hierarchically (along military lines), each subordinate leader looks down on his inferiors, and each of his inferiors looks down in turn on his own underlings.”

11.“From this point of view, everyone is trained to be a hero.” He talks here about the idea of giving your life to the cause.”

12. “The Ur-Fascists transfer his will to power onto sexual questions. This is the origin of machismo (which implies contempt for women and an intolerant condemnation of non-conformist sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality).”

13. “Ur-Fascism is based on ‘qualitative populism.’ In a democracy the citizens enjoy individual rights…For Ur-Fascists individuals have no rights.”

14. “Ur-Fascism uses newspeak. ‘Newspeak’ was invented by Orwell in 1984. All the Nazi and scholastic texts were based on por vocabulary and elementary syntax, the aim being to limit the instruments available to complex and critical reasoning.”

The Anabaptist Jacques

nice OP taj

and this is required reading list material as well

you can support your position very firmly with both quotes from ron's writing and anecdotal material

however...

a quick shot for the moment...

although there are hard points of policy that can be labeled inherently fascist and when used as a primary stable data align the body of policy to a fascistic tonality...

i am an auditor.

the primary action of an auditor is to raise others on the tone scale

the heart of the tone scale is the COHE and it's supporting tome SOS

the COHE clearly and correctly ascribes fascism to the 1 - 2 band of the tone scale centered on 1.5; anger

the essential concepts of both dianetics and scientology are liberating and constructive

the disciplines necessary for establishing, maintaining and expanding an organization must be stringent and although this is not inherently fascist it is prone to devolve into a fascist form