Why some Scientologists continue with Scientology

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
"Certainty!"

wow S&L that is quite a diatribe. CoS does things i do not and cannot condone. psychiatrists do far worse. free men and women of good will can and do study the materials of dianetics and scientology and use them to benefit thmselves and others.

if there is to be an address of the problematic aspects of CoS it can only be effected by those who recognize the virtues and value of the subject
Scientologists say the most outlandish things as if they were proven and widely acknowledged by "everyone" as true. They aren't.

"psychiatrists do far worse". There is absolutely no proof that this absurd allegation is true. To state this generality so boldly shows that you have never investigated the subject at all. You just bought the church propaganda, hook, line and sinker. You know nothing about the subject.

People "can and do study the materials of dianetics and scientology and use them to benefit thmselves and others". Yes anyone can study the subjects, but the "benefit themselves and others" has never been proven.

I understand that, to a Scientologist, belief = truth, but that doesn't hold true outside of Scientology. Outside, we tend to go with truth = what is proven to be true.

Sorry for the interruption, go on with your fantasy.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
That's a good point. I would only caution someone to make sure that he/she studies the subject well, including as much as one can possibly glean about the teacher's intentions.

One can seemingly get great results, lose 40 pounds and then drop dead of a heart attack because of the stress put on the body through a "successful" program. In this analogy, did the person write success stories? Yes. Did he/she try to get friends and family to partake in this great program? Yes. Did others rave about it? Yes. Is the person still dead? Yes.

Well, if the doctor is telling you to eat chicken and fish and veggies and to ride a bike, it's a pretty safe bet....Remember, one of the oft repeated criticisms of Scn is that so much of it's cribbed from Buddhism, occultism, early psychoanalysis. These things all have workable components and much has been written about them. IOW, much of Scn has precedent.

Also, Scn is therapy-centric (with a dollop of spirituality). It's got a strong self help aspect. That kind of thing is subjective. So are the gains of psychoanalysis. (lots of people have done very well with psychotherapies of different types and many have not. There's a real spread there of results. Why? Subjective. One size does not fit all people yet there are enough very efficacious components to make such efficacy common rather than occasional.)

Another factor is this: I'm harkening to the person's experience. And some people might think "why should the person even experience it when there's all these problems with Hubbard and the organization and other things? So why would they DO this research?" My answer is that a lot of FZers and Indies (bless me for creating that term. It certainly has gone viral.) already did experience it and they recall it fondly and wish to continue on either with that same thing or at least have it as part of their ongoing routine.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Scientologists say the most outlandish things as if they were proven and widely acknowledged by "everyone" as true. They aren't.

"psychiatrists do far worse". There is absolutely no proof that this absurd allegation is true. To state this generality so boldly shows that you have never investigated the subject at all. You just bought the church propaganda, hook, line and sinker. You know nothing about the subject.

People "can and do study the materials of dianetics and scientology and use them to benefit thmselves and others". Yes anyone can study the subjects, but the "benefit themselves and others" has never been proven.

I understand that, to a Scientologist, belief = truth, but that doesn't hold true outside of Scientology. Outside, we tend to go with truth = what is proven to be true.

Sorry for the interruption, go on with your fantasy.

I think it has been proven. I've met people who said it made them feel better. Well, if they feel better, they feel better.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I also want to say, as an adjunct to what I said earlier, that I'd have no more (and no less) reason to take a critic's assessment than I would Hubbard's. You say Hubbard did a lot of shitty stuff and led a bad life? Very very true. But there are some critics/pundits about whom the same could be said.

So I don't go by ok, Hubbard wrote it. Nathan P Naysayer critic wrote it. I would read the thing for myself and then decide. So I would neither reject or accept something just because this person or that wrote it or put a viewpoint forward or rebutted a viewpoint. I'd just read the thing and decide myself.

So heaven help the person who says "Oh you should listen to that critic." I'll treat that the same way I would the argument that goes "But it's RON, Claire. You should believe that HCOB.".

no dice.
 

Sindy

Crusader
Well, if the doctor is telling you to eat chicken and fish and veggies and to ride a bike, it's a pretty safe bet....Remember, one of the oft repeated criticisms of Scn is that so much of it's cribbed from Buddhism, occultism, early psychoanalysis. These things all have workable components and much has been written about them. IOW, much of Scn has precedent.

Also, Scn is therapy-centric (with a dollop of spirituality). It's got a strong self help aspect. That kind of thing is subjective. So are the gains of psychoanalysis. (lots of people have done very well with psychotherapies of different types and many have not. There's a real spread there of results. Why? Subjective. One size does not fit all people yet there are enough very efficacious components to make such efficacy common rather than occasional.)

Another factor is this: I'm harkening to the person's experience. And some people might think "why should the person even experience it when there's all these problems with Hubbard and the organization and other things? So why would they DO this research?" My answer is that a lot of FZers and Indies (bless me for creating that term. It certainly has gone viral.) already did experience it and they recall it fondly and wish to continue on either with that same thing or at least have it as part of their ongoing routine.

Hey, it's a free country :)

If the doctor dabbled or maybe even secretly became quite an adept at black magic, possibly had the idea that all men, women were his slaves, worked for Naval intelligence, had a history of psychiatric problems, tried to get a perceived enemy either jailed or put into a mental institution for exposing his deception, lied about his degree, falsified his lab tests, Kidnapped and then later virtually ignored his daughter, let his spouse take jail time for his crimes, did mass quantities of drugs including hallucinogenics, stole other people's intellectual property and claimed it as his own, spent the latter half of his life paranoid and on the lamb, masquerading as another in disguise, lied about his involvement with the church, etc.,etc., etc. ...............

I would go to another doctor.

Think about this and all the activities listed above and the NUMEROUS others that you have read about:

Per L Ron Hubbard's own Tone Scale and Chart of Human Evaluation, you should be disposing of HIM without sorrow.
 

Sindy

Crusader
I think it has been proven. I've met people who said it made them feel better. Well, if they feel better, they feel better.

No, if the end product is achieved, the subject works. Snapshots of feeling better are not proof of efficacy. I don't get this argument.

"Oh, yes, I feel wonderful. Everything is so theta and life is going so great."

Yet, the possibility exists that this person cannot think him/herself out of a paper bag. Their critical thinking skills have gone to mush. People can be blissfully mind controlled.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Hey, it's a free country :)

If the doctor dabbled or maybe even secretly became quite an adept at black magic, possibly had the idea that all men, women were his slaves, worked for Naval intelligence, had a history of psychiatric problems, tried to get a perceived enemy either jailed or put into a mental institution for exposing his deception, lied about his degree, falsified his lab tests, Kidnapped and then later virtually ignored his daughter, let his spouse take jail time for his crimes, did mass quantities of drugs including hallucinogenics, stole other people's intellectual property and claimed it as his own, spent the latter half of his life paranoid and on the lamb, masquerading as another in disguise, lied about his involvement with the church, etc.,etc., etc. ...............

I would go to another doctor.

Think about this and all the activities listed above and the NUMEROUS others that you have read about:

Per L Ron Hubbard's own Tone Scale and Chart of Human Evaluation, you should be disposing of HIM without sorrow.

He already is disposed of...I think that was in 1985, was it not?

And, if, not knowing the doctor did all that stuff, I had gone to him and had attained results because he prescribed wisely, etc, I guess I'd not worry about it.

Although, again, the analogy is problematic because with this scenario, we'd be paying the doctor (with which he could, presumably, do baaaaad things) whereas non CofS Scn'ists aren't sending Ron- or the cult-- any money...

So it would be more like, hey, chica goes to dr. Dr secretly very naughty. Chica doesn't know. Chica gets good medical advice. Chica later finds out Dr very naughty. Chica already has the information so Chica continues to apply it. Chica refrains from giving Dr. a blow job, though.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
No, if the end product is achieved, the subject works. Snapshots of feeling better are not proof of efficacy. I don't get this argument.

"Oh, yes, I feel wonderful. Everything is so theta and life is going so great."

Yet, the possibility exists that this person cannot think him/herself out of a paper bag. Their critical thinking skills have gone to mush. People can be blissfully mind controlled.

Because that is the end result of most therapy. Or so I learned in my psychology courses in college and from talking to our friends of the family who had PHDs in psychology...

Patient depressed or maybe not clinically depressed but not so happy. Goes to therapist. Therapist helps him. Patient feels better. Therapist does not say, oh gosh, he felt better, I must have failed. Patient does not say, gosh, I went to therapist, I feel better now. Boy, that sure didn't work.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Voltaires Child; I like your sensible remarks! :thumbsup: :hattip:

Me, too.

And funny thing is- I'm not even a Scn'ist any more. I'm just me. But I did learn some things in Scn that I liked and have friends who are having fun with it. I'm more into Buddhism nowadays. But I still know people who've left various churches (not just Scn) and continued to have their ideology that they'd learned about/studied/had/believed afterwards. That always seemed understandable to me.
 

bts2free

Patron with Honors
How about this for an analogy then?

Scientology_Zimmern.jpg
 

Sindy

Crusader
Because that is the end result of most therapy. Or so I learned in my psychology courses in college and from talking to our friends of the family who had PHDs in psychology...

Patient depressed or maybe not clinically depressed but not so happy. Goes to therapist. Therapist helps him. Patient feels better. Therapist does not say, oh gosh, he felt better, I must have failed. Patient does not say, gosh, I went to therapist, I feel better now. Boy, that sure didn't work.

No, one doesn't normally notice death by a thousand paper cuts. :D

Most people, I think if they were to be honest, would be continuing in Scientology as an answer because they still believe the OT levels are their route out. They're still following a gradation chart to somewhere.
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
I think the true test of "scientology" is what happens to the lives of those who believe in and practice it.

When you look at all the many practicing scientologists who

... neglected and/or abandoned their children
... agreed to consign their children to the Sea Org and never (or nearly never) saw them again
... were disconnected (by choice or by enforced order) from family and friends
... aborted or ordered others to abort their children because it was the "greatest good" for the scientology group
... begged borrowed and/or stole exhorbitant amounts of money and ultimately ended up bankrupt in order to pay the exhorbitant rates for scientology services (without questioning those rates until it was too late)
... participated in "get rich quick" schemes with questionable ethics, if not outright unethical or illegal
... became unbearably arrogant and elitist in personality or just outright crazy from applying the "tech"
... allowed themselves to be used, abused, sleep-deprived, nearly starved, and worked like slaves in unhealthy conditions for little or no reward, money or otherwise
... committed or were a party to suicide, murder, and/or depraved indifference

it does not speak well for the subject or one's desire to subject oneself to its techniques in order to "feel good."

An addiction to meth, certainly to pot, is probably a lot cheaper and less destructive. Since I don't partake, I can only go on the testimony of those who do in judging the comparative "feel good" quotients.

We haven't seen so much of my list above outside of the "church" organization; but in the very recent battles of the free zoners that played out in public on this board, we have seen how well (not very) "scientology works" as a system for improving social relationships.

To each his own. Buyer beware.

I'll happily pass on the whole trip and just keep my "case," my "reactive mind" and "aberrations" and the various pleasures those bring me, thank you very much.
 

Sindy

Crusader
Voltaires Child; I like your sensible remarks! :thumbsup: :hattip:

NewLife, thanks for being here and having the kahunas to start this thread. :)

Now, of course (obviously) you don't need anyone else to tell you that it's okay to study and apply Scientology. That's your prerogative and I respect your forwarding of an argument as to why you would so continue.

Having said that, you apparently do not like things about the official C of S or you wouldn't be posting here.

If you don't mind my asking:

Do you think all the problems are created by David Miscavige or by agents thereof or by members of the C of S or do you see inherent problems with the policies created by Ron?

To help stop the abuses and contribute what you can to exposing the atrocities, would you be willing to expose Ron's lies?
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
"Feel better"

I think it has been proven. I've met people who said it made them feel better. Well, if they feel better, they feel better.
I could argue that "feel better" isn't much of a benefit. But that's a quibble.

Mainly my argument is that the statement that Scientology can be used by people to "benefit themselves and others" as a generality has not been proven.

If the statement had been "people can use Scientology and it might benefit some people" I'd have no problem with it.

As it stands, it remains unproven. It's just sales talk.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
No, one doesn't normally notice death by a thousand paper cuts. :D

Most people, I think if they were to be honest, would be continuing in Scientology as an answer because they still believe the OT levels are their route out. They're still following a gradation chart to somewhere.

Sure, they believe the OT levels are their route out. And they believe that because they believe they got results from their auditing that they had, previous. I mean, I've had some good auditing. I remember just being a FUCKING BASKET CASE after my parents died, 7 months apart. It hit me harder than expected. I mean, of course I loved them, but parent #1 (with whom I was far closer, actually) I was very very sad, but I dealt with it. Then parent #2 (with whom my relationship could only be described as rocky though loving) died and I was like OMFG WTF I CANNOT DO THIS!!

So my heart was...well, I had an elevated pulse rate and it stayed that way for weeks. So I got some auditing just, you know, for the grief. Not a specific grade chart action- this was NOT in CofS. I told my auditor about this stuff, how I was feeling and all. She happened to have a thingie that read pulse rate and so on and she took my pulse before auditing. Very high. Then I had oh, maybe 8 or 10 or so-- maybe an "intensive" of hours of auditing. I felt better afterward about Mom, Dad and death in general. And my pulse rate went down and stayed down.

Now before anyone get concerned or chagrined or whatnot- I will point out that I did not go to the auditor to get my body handled. I went because I was in deep grief about my Mom and Dad dying. I was also the one who took care of all their affairs, I was the only child, I helped them when they were sick- they both called me frequently- often at the office. This was also the same year I got expelled by the cult and took a job 2000 miles away and was missing my husband something wicked. It was not an easy year. Anyway, it all got to me and my heart literally went pitty pat.

So I think the auditor DID help me. But that's in a way misleading. I would really mean that she applied something, a tool of sorts (I'd say the same thing about a psychotherapist or psychologist who knew his or her shit) so that I was able to help myself. It did help, it did matter, it was not paper cuts.

An auditor sits down with s/one and does ARC Straightwire or Problems auditing about changes in your life, that ain't papercuts. An auditor sits down with s/one (like me) and audits her about death and loss of loved ones and there's some emotional relief- that ain't papercuts.

There are many different processes in Scn. They aren't all the same. I know one thing that is - if not always the same- pretty damn constant- and that's the endless indoctrination and emotional (sometimes physical) manhandling of people by the cult. It doesn't matter how great a person's auditing might be if they're being told they better let their 13 year old kid join the S.O. or else or if they're constantly being threatened, bullied, or even imprisoned.

These days, I find Buddhism to be more what I was really looking for. I tend to think I wouldn't have understood Buddhism so well without my solid grounding in Scientology (and some of the reading I've done re various other religions, ologies and modalities of thought) but yeah, at this point, I'm finding it far less limiting.

But in no way do I think that I somehow only thought I felt better those times when I did feel better due to auditing or TRs or the (uber wonderful) Data Series.

Just as- and I know you'll appreciate this- I also don't think that the times when I thought that the tech didn't do anything for me (the purif!!! Some auditing I've gotten, a couple other things) that it actually did and that somehow I just didn't know what I was and was not feeling and experiencing. It cuts both ways.

When people say they didn't derive much benefit from Scn or that it didn't go really well (like me with the Purif, for example) it's generally given credence by those of critical inclination. Well, if they know how it struck 'em, then they'd know if they felt that Scn did assist them.

It's all kind of subjective but so are lots of other non Scn things.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I could argue that "feel better" isn't much of a benefit. But that's a quibble.

Mainly my argument is that the statement that Scientology can be used by people to "benefit themselves and others" as a generality has not been proven.

If the statement had been "people can use Scientology and it might benefit some people" I'd have no problem with it.

As it stands, it remains unproven. It's just sales talk.

People have been known to spend years in psychotherapy just to "feel better".

It's not unproven for those who had the experiences. Not for those who did well with psychotherapy, not for those who did well from prayer, meditation, and not for those who had auditing that they felt helped them.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Fluffy, to me you hit the nail on the head the most on this thread! :thumbsup:

There is a HUGE segment of life that involves "subjective experiences". Nobody expects or demands "proof", simply "suggestions from others" - who are hopefully somewhat sincere, honest and not entirely stupid (that is the IDEAL at least).

All religions, philosophies, most ideologies and much of modern "therapy" (whether talk counseling, energy visualization, meditation or any of many others) do not require proof and CANNOT ever be "proven" to the satisfaction of everyone. And, subjectivity is the bane of the "scientific method" - too many variables involved, and nothing there that can be easily quantified and measured (a basic requirement of "scientific experimentation").

If sticking electric cattle prods up my ass gives me cognitions, and extensive moments of "peace" and "happiness", who is to say otherwise? Logic and science are meaningless when it comes to "subjective states of consciousness". Who is to say that the bum sitting on the corner, reaching for a gutter-soaked cigarette butt, isn't actually experiencing God as he gives you that all-knowing smirk of mutual understanding?

When it comes to "subjective realities", Hubbard wins: "What is true for you is what you agree to be true and what you observe about yourself subjectively". :confused2:

No matter how idiotic it might appear to some or many others.

Subjective experiences are one thing, and actual harmful behaviors casued by and based on actual LRH policies is something else. Two very different things.

My enjoyment with going exterior on TRs is NOT the SAME as my extreme dislike for how the C of S framed Paulette Cooper in a crime that she didn't commit. See? One involves something that I experience that you can't and don't (not as I do), and the other involves something we ALL can view and evaluate.

++++++++
 
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...

"If I was a Buddhist, I would be so because that philosophy would make the most sense to me or give me the most spiritual gain. I would not consider to change my philosophy because it’s old and obsolete." GIVE ME THE MOST GAIN. Can you see how selfish and misguided this attitude is? ...

Can you see how selfish & judgemental your remarks are?

Buddhists practice Buddhism because they consider it to be the best thing for them to do, not for some other reason. Same thing applies with scientologists, catholics, whatever.


Are you REALLY getting "Spiritual gain", while ignoring and denying the great harm that the system that you are supporting does to others? ...

HIS comments relate to why he chooses to practice the subject of scientology. YOUR comments are an irrational attempt to extend those remarks on the subject of scientology to an implicit support for the church cult which you see as destructive. HE said no such thing, ergo your remarks are inappropriate, off-topic, and serve only to mischaracterize & malign the person.


Mark A. Baker
 
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