Why some Scientologists continue with Scientology

Me too, Shelly!

Shellback, I have a friend who described to me her experience with one of her high school classmates who was a bit of an odd character. Probably nowadays would be diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome or ADD, something similar to that. He was definitely extremely socially awkward...a good person, just hard to interact with.

Well...you guessed it, Scientology could help him handle that. Some FSM roped him in and he started his way up the Bridge. He was all excited and quickly became a true believer, got really into his local Org, eventually pulling away from all his friends and dropping out of everything in his life that wasn't Scientology related, much to his parents alarm.

She said he felt had big wins doing the TRs. I asked her, in her view, how he had changed. Had his personality really changed any, could he really communicate better and had his social skills improved? She looked at me and said, "Not really". She thought for a few seconds and said, "Well, there was one change I noticed..."Well, he was a lot more confident, really arrogantly so, but in a very mentally ill sort of way."

I knew exactly what she was talking about, as I had seen several of my high school classmates who were socially awkward go through the same thing. Now on top of being socially awkward, they were rude, arrogant, exclusionary and robotic, but extremely proud and pleased with themselves for being so!

Harder to converse and spend time with than ever. But they thought that they had made great progress and were so chuffed with themselves! :ohmy:
 

Jquepublic

Silver Meritorious Patron
Sweetness: I can appreciate how the word Scientology itself has come to be associated with an enormous amount of negativity. But in the threads, articles and blogs I've read, almost uniformly the negative aspects people talk about deal with policy (meaning green on white), the ethics/OW tech and the upper levels. I've never done the upper levels, I see very little of use in the ethics tech, mainly due to it opening a door for "3rd dynamic" imposition of reality, and I despise green on white. But there are aspects of the body of work that I believe are true based on independent study, practice and observation. I think that the same holds true to a greater or lesser degree for any Ex CoS on this board who still considers himself a Scientologist.

The problem you'll inevitably run into is that it's incredibly difficult to separate out what is philosophy and what is cult mentality. It's a problem anyone who leaves a cult is faced with. But if someone leaves a destructive Christian cult and still thinks of himself as a Christian, people generally accept it without a lot of griefing. I feel the same should be accepted of people who leave the Church but still engage in practices they learned while in it. I know that's asking a lot. But you mentioned that people went off and changed the name under which they practice aspects of Scientology and that's ok - to me that's not ok. That's obscuring a connection that I feel needs to be completely clear to anyone considering processing. People should make an informed decision, not be led into it blindly.

You made reference to the damage being done by practicing Scientology in or out of the church, and if you could please direct me to any research or case studies done by qualified persons on this topic I would be very grateful. Aside from the case of the OT levels, I've never found anything written up on the subject of potential harm from auditing. I'd very much like to read anything you can show me though as part of my own ongoing decision making on the topic.
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
All well and fine if we we just talking about cars and computer software. What Scientology deals with is changing people and creating a different reality by getting people to believe whatever the organisation wants them to believe.

Lots of organisations do this, it's not a problem unless the reality that the people create is harmful to society at large. I would say that the reality that Scientology proposes to create is not good for society. The people who have allowed this organisation to change them have (IMO) diminished themselves and are less capable as a whole than if they had gotten no training at all. Members who achieve a measure of success do so despite Scientology training, not because of it. The only good thing I see coming out of TRs is an almost arrogant sense of self worth. I can't imagine the price is worth it. You could get the same thing by staying in a Holiday Inn Express. :)

I have a personality.

I LIKE my personality!.....

If you read my post about computers, I hope that you noticed that I was sarcastically paralleling the development of Scn and the continual "moving of the goal posts" so you have re-treads, pay extra for mistakes/bugs that are not your fault, and still fail to get what the advertising promised.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
I am scratching my head. What is so difficult to understand?

If a person chooses to practice some aspects of the "Red Volumes" (self-improvement tech), without all of the cultic trappings of the Green Volumes (KSW, ethics & justice, SP declares, the constant demand for "products", the IAS, the "mission" aspect of Scientology), and these folks hurt nobody except possibly themselves (as every person has the right to do), why would/should anybody care?

People hurt themselves with diets, with drugs, with sex (STDs), with overworking, with harboring hatred, and probably millions of other things. That cannot ever be stopped. People will do what they want and either benefit or suffer the consequences. I prefer societies that defend that right.

Luckily, "freedom" will be kept alive in the USA and Europe, hopefully expand to other areas of the world, and people will remain free to believe and practice whatever he or she likes, AS LONG AS THEY DON'T HURT ANYBODY, no matter how many others would like to somehow STOP some folks from doing so.

Rampant nuttiness is the price one pays for "freedom", since ALL are free to believe and communicate as one so chooses. But random and even rampant nuttiness, is far better than the tyranny of less or no freedom at all. :yes:

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Arthur Dent

Silver Meritorious Patron
Why people stay in spite of the car drivers having accidents, no results, etc. is because the people who are having accidents and no results are PTS or SPs. Or out-ethics. That is all. It's quite clear and it is all neat and tidy. There is really nothing else to consider. Nada. Otherwise the tech works. Plain and simple. Didn't you already re-re-do the PTS/SP course? Do you need to do it again??

The PTS crap is the lynch pin here.

Once you remove that "stable datum" the poor true believer can now see again. I think many of us believed that and it kept us tied to the whipping post with those invisible but mighty chains much longer than need be.

I was recently looking in on Marty's tech message board which I hadn't ever seen before. I was surprised to see there were a very limited number of core posters there and the consensus seems to be that over here we are a bunch of Psych 101 students. The view is downright frightening but the arrogance that is bestowed upon one as a scio is difficult to shake. Who wants to give up being right? No one wants to give up their car that works in their estimation and gets them where they want to go, seemingly.

Eventually, they will all shake loose and realize there is a real world map. I hope!
 

well_that_sucked

Patron with Honors
Scientologists and their "Cars"

Om nomnom​

2dcehzm.gif
 

xseaorguk

Patron Meritorious
the analogy with the car I get and understand, but again proves that only
1st dynamic interests are important to most $cientologists.
Its like:

"Did you know Lisa Mcpherson was locked away and died after 17 days of dehydration and was coverd with cockroach bites?"

typical answer:

"Well you know, I have done my research and found that $cn works for me, and what is true for you is true for you, per LRH
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
I am scratching my head. What is so difficult to understand?

If a person chooses to practice some aspects of the "Red Volumes"(1) (self-improvement tech), without all of the cultic trappings of the Green Volumes (KSW, ethics & justice, SP declares, the constant demand for "products", the IAS, the "mission" aspect of Scientology), and these folks hurt nobody except possibly themselves (as every person has the right to do), why would/should anybody care?

People hurt themselves with diets, with drugs, with sex (STDs), with overworking, with harboring hatred, and probably millions of other things. That cannot ever be stopped. People will do what they want and either benefit or suffer the consequences. I prefer societies that defend that right.(2)

Luckily, "freedom" will be kept alive in the USA and Europe(3), hopefully expand to other areas of the world, and people will remain free to believe and practice whatever he or she likes, AS LONG AS THEY DON'T HURT ANYBODY, no matter how many others would like to somehow STOP some folks from doing so.

Rampant nuttiness is the price one pays for "freedom", since ALL are free to believe and communicate as one so chooses. But nuttiness, is better than the tyranny of less or no freedom at all. :yes:

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  1. I used Touch Assists on my Father and despite his contempt for Scn, he was a big fan of Touch Assists, so if I deem one necessary over a prefered non-Scn action, then I will use it. I guess lrh would call me a Squirrel for "mixing practices".

  2. In Australia "helping" a terminally ill patient, who suffers continuous pain, "end the pain" a little sooner is illegal. I for one would prefer Quality over Quantity. Here in Oz, for those who like S&M, the M cannot legally permit the S to inflict injuries that would require medical treatment.

    After Robert Englund immortalized the character of Freddy Kruger in Nightmare on Elm Street, he was often approached by young girls who really wanted the "thrill of being chopped up to death by Freddy".

    I've forgotten what point I was trying to make...

  3. Freedom is being stamped out in the u.s. by Unconstitutional legislation such as "The Patriot Act". Slowly all those hard won freedoms are being eroded away until the u.s. becomes a Police State.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
  1. I used Touch Assists on my Father and despite his contempt for Scn, he was a big fan of Touch Assists, so if I deem one necessary over a prefered non-Scn action, then I will use it. I guess lrh would call me a Squirrel for "mixing practices".

    But, you found "some" value in some small aspect of the "tech".

  2. In Australia "helping" a terminally ill patient, who suffers continuous pain, "end the pain" a little sooner is illegal. I for one would prefer Quality over Quantity. Here in Oz, for those who like S&M, the M cannot legally permit the S to inflict injuries that would require medical treatment.

    After Robert Englund immortalized the character of Freddy Kruger in Nightmare on Elm Street, he was often approached by young girls who really wanted the "thrill of being chopped up to death by Freddy".

    I've forgotten what point I was trying to make...

    I think your point was that freedom can be tricky at times, because it allows people the "freedom" to do really stupid things at times - like young girls wanting to be chopped up by Freddy!

    The line between a) "freedom", and b) the various laws and restrictions that prohibit one from harming another is often vague, and even shifting as social views change over time. Thus, the problem with "assisted suicide" in terminally ill patients. Kevorkian is seen is a hero by some and as the devil by others.


  3. Freedom is being stamped out in the u.s. by Unconstitutional legislation such as "The Patriot Act". Slowly all those hard won freedoms are being eroded away until the u.s. becomes a Police State.

On the last, I have read all the theories, and have heard how we are all silently marching to the tune of the New World Order to some version of a "New World Order".

Personally, I doubt that the USA will ever become a "police state". I could be wrong. And, granted, catastrophic events (real or manipulated) do often create catastrophic "solutions".

For example, the "Patriot Act" was a direct result of 9/11. The catastrophe of 9/11 directly resulted in the "solution" of the "Patriot Act". It could have been all "natural", and it could have been "manipulated" (if the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon were "contrived" (staged) events, intended as a way to loosen up public opinion so that such things as the "Patriot Act" could be passed)

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Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
Answer to the the Title question
Why do some still continue:

1) argument using Fallacious Argument Works

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

2) Intelligence Interrogation Techniques WORK

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=22499

3) Electricity Works

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=548084&postcount=128

4) Hypnosis works

(Black Dianetics works)
here is another angle, a possible example of 'black dianetics' and why that registrar is so irresistible when he asked for your money - To accept scientology is to accept that you have a terrible, awful thing, a reacti...ve mind that you must get rid of... Hubbard also refers to it repeatedly as your BANK, and a scientologist is absolutely certain that he MUST get rid of his BANK!!.. Now wouldn't it be easy to get money out of you (AND from your bank) to get rid of your reactive mind which he artfully defines as YOUR BANK? Check out this letter from an oldtimer with Hubbard at the beginning http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/carto/rxxx.htm

5) Blackmail works

We have YOUR dirty laundry, now be silent

6) Harassment Works

Both online and in life...

7) And the thing that works the most in scientology are its lawyers

Lawyer Subsection a) and Religious Cloaking WORKS on governments LINK

The scam can be organized conceptually another way

Part 1 : lies, tricks , artifice used to lure good people in using false promises.

Part 2 : Techniques used to extend the amount of time it takes to figure out that you have been defrauded

Part 3 : Techniques used to silence or nullify those who have figured it out.

See http://www.lermanet.com/reference/graphicindex.htm



British Parliament, 1968:
Mr. St. John-Stevas: Since the right Hon. Gentleman has reflected on the subject and is noted for his academic brilliance, would he say in one brief, concise sentence, exactly what Scientology is?

Mr. Crossman: Yes, I think I could: it is a fraud.
 
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Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
All well and fine if we we just talking about cars and computer software. What Scientology deals with is changing people and creating a different reality by getting people to believe whatever the organisation wants them to believe.

Lots of organisations do this, it's not a problem unless the reality that the people create is harmful to society at large. I would say that the reality that Scientology proposes to create is not good for society. The people who have allowed this organisation to change them have (IMO) diminished themselves and are less capable as a whole than if they had gotten no training at all. Members who achieve a measure of success do so despite Scientology training, not because of it. The only good thing I see coming out of TRs is an almost arrogant sense of self worth. I can't imagine the price is worth it. You could get the same thing by staying in a Holiday Inn Express. :)

I have a personality.

I LIKE my personality!.....


You're talking here about an organization. Namely, CofS. This thread is about people who pursue Scn as an ideology after leaving The Church of Scientology.
 
ahem...i beg your pardon

Scientologists say the most outlandish things as if they were proven and widely acknowledged by "everyone" as true. They aren't.

"psychiatrists do far worse". There is absolutely no proof that this absurd allegation is true. To state this generality so boldly shows that you have never investigated the subject at all. You just bought the church propaganda, hook, line and sinker. You know nothing about the subject.

People "can and do study the materials of dianetics and scientology and use them to benefit thmselves and others". Yes anyone can study the subjects, but the "benefit themselves and others" has never been proven.

I understand that, to a Scientologist, belief = truth, but that doesn't hold true outside of Scientology. Outside, we tend to go with truth = what is proven to be true.

Sorry for the interruption, go on with your fantasy.

i myself have twice been incarcerated without warrant and subjected to coerced drugging and abuse, i twice witnessed my father lynched for political reasons and get his brain fried with ECT and how about frances farmer?

and for someone who speaks of proof there's an awful lot of presumption and attitude in your post.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Very nice detailed and thoughtful post. I only hope that I can do justice to it.


The "ology" of Scientology.

I thought you might mean that but I wasn't 100% sure.


I'm not so sure that they are all entirely "out", even though they might call themselves Exes and no longer are directly involved or contributing to COS.

I guess it would depend on what one may mean by "out". I was using "out" in the more literal sense. Out of CofS. Out of the mindset? Maybe not.

Thing is, FZers and Indies come in all shapes and sizes, metaphorically speaking, re their practice of Scn. There's a far greater range there than one would see in CofS. So some are more hidebound and what I call "tech purist" than others are. So one cannot generalize quite as much as one could when speaking about churchies, IMO.

I've seen some hidebound thought modalities in the non CofS Scn scene. And I've seen some people get very loosey goosey, into experimentation, adding other things. I know of a couple non CofS Scn'ists who take psychiatric meds, for example. I know of others who never would. I know of non CofS Scn'ists who write KRs. I know of others who wouldn't dream of bothering and who'd just come up and talk to the person or put him on ignore or whatever.

So are some people out of CofS but not out of the indoctrinated mindset? AbsoFRIGGINGlutely. Is it all of them? No!

It's not dissimilar to Christians. What a broad spectrum of fascinating people we get there! My Mom, for example, a staunch Catholic, believed in a God of LOVE. She figured hardly anyone was in hell and anyway, it wasn't up to us to assess or guess that. She said "you don't know what's in someone's heart or what they said to God on their deathbed." But when someone I knew was in the hospital with slashed wrists, who already felt terrible about what they'd done and who'd already talked to clergy about it, they received a visitor. A fundie Protestant I know quite well. The fundie said if they were REALLY saved, they wouldn't have done that. Way to go, Fundie!!

My point being there's a spectrum with practitioners of any religion or ology and, thus, it's not fair to tar them all with the same brush.


They still contribute to and legitimize the movement (cult that does harm people and society) by calling themselves Scientologists.

Not if they say they aren't with CofS. Not if they say they are Indies or FreeZoners. Else, all Protestants (particularly in Elizabeth I's day, but even now) would be tarred with the Catholic brush....


That's the point I'm making. Some of you are saying so what, why is that a bad thing. If I'm no longer supporting COS I'm not harming anybody.

"You"??? I'm not a Scn'ist.


You can't see (or won't accept) the harm that using and practicing Scientology on people does, to yourself and other people, but others who are free of the mindset can see it. I know your intention is not to harm your self or others. You've been bamboozled into thinking that something harmful is actually something good.

Again, I must take exception to the second person pronoun here.

Many non CofS Scn'ists picket. Many send money to critics. Many are targetted by CofS.

Someone sitting down with someone else on his or her own time away from CofS to discuss whether or not he had an engram isn't doing anything to hurt anyone or anything.

Please see my reply to Synthia that I wrote yesterday re the death of my parents. It was a heartfelt, specific and detailed reply. I was an Indie Scn'ist at that time and had received auditing, which I described in the post. Please tell me exactly how the hell that's supposed to have harmed:

  • Someone other than myself
  • Myself


You can't see from this viewpoint, and I get it. That's o.k.

I think you must have missed quite a few of my posts. I understand the viewpoint far more than you think and I mislike being told what I do and don't understand. I mean, my gosh, you thought I was a Scn'ist!


It takes a really long time for some people to become fully un-indoctrinated. Especially if you won't read the facts about the actual history of your group and your Founder, how and why he created your thought control system, and you won't accept those facts as real.

You must have missed hundreds of posts. A non CofS Scn'ist doesn't HAVE a history of his or her group. (and, again, please don't include me. The proper pronoun would have been "they"/"them". Not "you") Did you know that many of them HAVE read every critical thing they could find about Hubbard and that many of them discuss these things with others? I know I did when I was an indie.

I know he was into control. I knew it before. I read the affirmations. I read at least as much critical material as you've done. Terril Park and Mark Baker also have. So have some other non CofS Scn'ist friends of mine. I know this because I've discussed this with many of them.

When I was in the process of deciding what to do about my CofS membership 12 years ago, someone reached out to me. This person was scathing about L Ron Hubbard. Scathing about CofS. Did not want to do FZ. And you know what? This person was a Scientologist. One size does not fit all.

But if someone who's read all this stuff about Hubbard- as I've done, as Mark's done, as Terril's done, as my other friends who I won't name (some of whom post and lurk here, some don't) have done- finds that he or she can still apply the Data Series or the ARC triangle, then it's not a matter of not facing up to whatever. Some of my friends who are doing so have a rather low regard for Hubbard and are, as I said, quite scathing about him. They're only looking at ideas.



Because if you did read and research and learn the truth, you would never ever call yourself a Scientologist again.

Ok, again, you missed my sig line and many posts. I'm not a Scn'ist.

But when I was a non CofS Scn'ist, I had read and researched and learned the truth. I've been openly mocking Hubbard and Xenu for years, long before I decided I was more a Buddhist than anything else. But I'd already learned certain techniques and spiritual theories. I already knew them before I'd done the research. An attorney I used to know used to say "Can't unring THAT bell." I already knew that I could do something with the "tech". These days, as I say, I'm less into that and more into other things. This is something my husband doesn't fully believe--he's still a staunch Indie- but it's true. Somehow, though, we muddle through together without discord.

Again, I refer you to my posted reply to Synthia about the auditing I got when my folks died. I got the auditing and it did something. If, conversely, it had been created by a warm fluffy benevolent guru and did not work whatsoever, I'd say that too. It would be the same scenario, only reversed.


You would never support or promote that system to other people, or use it yourself. When you get there, you really are an Ex, or a Former Scientologist.

You're assuming that I support and promote systems. I'm more into individual ideas. And I don't promote or sell anything. I developed an allergy to proselytization when I was in my 20s.


Many of the people who are members here are still stuck in the mindset of a Scientologist, and happy to be so. I understand that.

Yes. I've noticed that people who tell others what to believe are a lot like CofS members.


How many Indys and Free Zoners still believe and promote to the people in their sphere of social influence (whatever it's size, large or small) the shore story that Ron was a really great guy who created a religion to "give" to the world because he wanted to help people? It's just that it went wrong somewhere along the way and there are some problems with the organization of COS now. But if we could just get back to Ron's original tech and intent, what a wonderful world it would be!

You'd be surprised how few. I wish you'd stop stereotyping.


Anyone who still thinks that truly is still in denial, has not read the research into Ron's history or read the facts and is ignorant of the truth about the origins and purpose of Scientology "processing". Or they have read it and have dismissed it, as it doesn't fit in with what they want Scientology to be for them personally,"in their Universe". A denial of reality. Magical thinking that it's true if it's true for me.

You might want to ask people how they feel instead of assuming. You've made several mistakes here.


I think fully out from under the mental influence of the COS is a state of mind that I don't see or hear expressed by "Every Scn'ist on this board". But I do hope that everyone will get there eventually, where they will be really free to look beyond the hype and smoke and mirror tech, the promises of super-human powers and space opera of Scientology and evaluate for themselves it's origins and influences, and the way it operates in subtle and not-so-subtle ways on people's minds, alters and limits thought processes, and limits people's abilities to discern and differentiate reality from magical thinking.

I do understand the distinction between actively supporting COS with a lock-step mindset, or more passively supporting "Scientology" by practicing it more privately as some nebulous, it means to me what it means to me "ology", by cherry-picking the bits and pieces of the scam that you like, feel comfortable with, or that you feel "work" for you. But for those who are proud of self-identifying their "religion" as Scientology, and to operate as an Indy, you are still supporting a dangerous and destructive cult.

Well, I'm not an Indie, but when I was, I wasn't supporting a cult. See above.

You can't totally separate and extract the subject of Scientology from the attitudes, practices, and indoctrinated belief system of the cult called the Church of Scientology. Scientology didn't evolve into something that was dangerous and harmful to people, it started out that way, done so with awareness and intent by it's creator, Ron.

Ah, but one can.

Look, the word "Scientology" has been tainted forever by the crimes, frauds and abuses of the cult of the COS. It's not just me that thinks this way about it. People either cringe or laugh when the word comes up in conversation, sometimes both. I don't know that it's possible to redeem the word "Scientology". It equates with an evil cult in the minds of most people.

It's a connotation. That's all. Christianity has historically had the same problem...Islam does, nowadays. I was just talking to someone about that last week, in fact.


A lot of people who have left COS have squirreled the parts they liked into some process or method and called it something else. So long as they are not harming or defrauding anyone by doing so, it's o.k. with me.

You've just written several paragraphs and other posts indicating that it's anything but ok with you.


People do have the right to think what they want, believe what they want, but not to always do what they want. Your right to swing your fist ends just in front of the other guys nose.

So if someone goes into a little closet, reads Handbook for preclears, does a process on his or her own, how is that hitting the other guys' nose?

The auditing I got when my folks died, how would that have hit any other guys' noses?


I'm sorry, I know my stating this so plainly seems really harsh to many of you who still find something to love about Scientology.

Please stop making assumptions about me. You don't know me and you've clearly missed hundreds of posts I wrote, threads I've created and my sig line.

I grew up in a small to middle sized town with a booming Mission, having over 200 staff members at one time, before the Mission Holders revolt and RTC take over. Ubiquitous FSMs fished for raw meat, sold Dianetics and recruited for the cult in every high school and college in town for years. A lot of people in my life have been involved with Scientology to greater or lesser degrees. Many with no choice in the matter as they were dragged into it by their parents. All of them are out of COS and most have totally left the beliefs and practices of Scientology as an "ology" behind them, as being actively harmful, flawed or just pain unworkable. NONE of them came out of their cult experience unscathed.

Yep. I'm with ya there.

Some of them are now activists for the protection of our community from Scientology and other mind/behavior control cults. Others just want to put it all behind them and forget about it as a bad experience. Some of them are so ashamed of ever having been Scientologists that it's a deep dark secret in their lives that they never currently reveal to people or talk about. A couple are still a bit haunted and traumatized by it (especially those who were Cadet Org children, now grown up).

So are a lot of FZers and Indies. Or so I've been told, talking to them on PICKET LINES.


I know three people personally (all reliable reporters) who have independently told me that Scientology members physically assaulted them and on other occasions attempted to kill them, as a means of frightening them into compliance with the cult's agenda for their lives and controlling them, or when that failed, eradicating them as a threat to the group. Two of these incidents happened in the 70's and 80's, and one happened in the 2000 decade. All three of these people are living and working as professionals in my town, good citizens with good reputations, and I BELIEVE THEM. None of them have anything to do with Scientology any longer and are Exes in the true sense of the word. They have gotten free of the mindset and indoctrination and are flourishing and thriving without it. They have largely recovered from their cult experience.

And how is a woman who got some auditing for her grief outside of CofS from an expelled (and fair gamed) free Zoner responsible for that?


The cult of Scientology is not reforming or improving itself over time. It's devolving into more and more of an overtly fraudulent and criminal organization that's been more and more infiltrated into our society, via it's front groups. Maybe some of you who have been out for a long time, or who were not very deeply involved don't fully realize how dangerous and destructive the cult of Scientology is. Alanzo said it best when he said that the Scientology that you read about in the books and thought you were joining doesn't exist in reality.

Yep. Sure isn't. It's not viable. It can't be reformed. (you're uh...preaching to the converted. See my warning about stereotyping.)

I don't hate Scientologists, either in or out of the cult. I do hate the fraud, crimes and abuses perpetrated by Scientologists in the name of and for the benefit of their group, Scientology. I want law enforcement to put a stop to it, for all of our sakes, even to protect those who are still in the cult from further harm. In order to do that, a whole lot of Exes need to tell their stories to the Feds, and turn whistle-blower and give all the documentation they can about criminal actions. Many brave souls are doing just that. Many good people are working around the world to put an end to the cult and it's abusive practices. Both Nons and Exes and those who still call themselves Scientologists.

You are telling people what they believe, and that they haven't done certain research and you're wrong. It's both ignorant and condescending. And unobservant.


Some of them are members here.

To the extent that we can see eye to eye about stopping the abuses and ending forever the criminal behavior of the cult, I have no problem with Indys and Freezoners. I know and like many of you and respect you, up to the point where you begin defending Scientology, which harms people! I just want everybody to wake up and get free of cult indoctrination. It can be done and life can be wonderful afterwards! :happydance:


Someday she'll stop saying "you" when she replies to me and references Indies...o some glorious day. :coolwink:

I just want you to read all the uncovered documents and testimonies for yourself, because so much important information about Scientology has been hidden, distorted and suppressed over time, for the purpose of manipulating people's perception of Scientology to enable the cult to keep going, get rich and expand.

I already did and so do the people I mentioned along with many others. Please stop making assumptions.


I know a lot of you who consider yourselves Free Zone or Indy Scientologists are good people and want to be of help to others. I don't mean to hurt or offend you and wish you well as individuals.

You've told people that they didn't do the research when, in fact, many people who still practice Scn outside of CofS have done so and have said so again and again. You've told them to listen to a critic who's just a person and is about as above reproach as anyone else. You've also not noticed all the things I and so many of us have said about ourselves and our stances. You've accused people here of not facing the truth, not doing the research and of HARMING OTHERS by privately practicing their religion. You've accused Free Zoners, many of whom picket and have been fair gamed by CofS- of enabling CofS.

That is really really not good, S&L.



People need to learn the truth about Scientology, especially the people on this board who are still in denial about it.

Ask the Freezoners and Indies here what they've read and haven't read before you make this assumption. I used to be both of those things and you were wrong about me and my past research. I know you're wrong about a number of others. And ask them what they think instead of TELLING THEM what they think.

I am not being sarcastic. I really suggest that you create a thread asking. You could make it a poll. I think it would be a really good thread and could clarify some things. (no pun intended)



At some point, as an Ex, you have to get over and recover from your cult experience...if you're still defending and supporting Scientology, you're still to an extent, defending and supporting the cult...and at some point, you have to chose between the cult and the real world.

I have done.

I understand that not everybody is ready to go there yet. It's a gradient, it's a process. It takes time and effort. I am asking you to make the effort to read all the data and think for yourself.

I already did. I've mentioned those facts (abt Hubbard) for years in posts. I've also been mocking him for years. I'm far from the only one.

The truth won't bite you. Go ahead and LOOK

I think this is good advice and I'd like to offer it to you. I think you're laboring under some grave misapprehensions. I truly think creating a thread maybe with a poll would help. But one would truly have to read it and not make assumptions.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
i myself have twice been incarcerated without warrant and subjected to coerced drugging and abuse, i twice witnessed my father lynched for political reasons and get his brain fried with ECT and how about frances farmer?

and for someone who speaks of proof there's an awful lot of presumption and attitude in your post.

Love ya much, Commander, but I think some of the stuff about Frances Farmer and her lobotomy has been debunked, perhaps. The rest of your post stands, though. Again, not meaning any disrespect.
 
Awww... Its Vaughn!

I have never seen this video before this morning (now there's synchronicity for ya! Thank you, Carl Jung! :p), but I think perhaps it helps to illustrate my point just a little regarding part of what's wrong with doing the basic TR's (just plain old Scientology as an "ology" stuff, the Red Volume "personal improvement" stuff that some of you seem to be advocating for still, saying "it doesn't hurt anybody" so go ahead and continue to practice it).

A lot of people say they have wins doing the TR's, and I believe them...But what else are the TR's doing to you, that maybe you don't examine too closely because of feeling and experiencing the wins? :questions: I just think there is also a hidden cost as to what it is doing to your mind, the pathways it is training you to "automatically" go down in your thoughts, the "natural" responses it is training you not to have, (training you out of having), that conditions you to think and behave in ways that those of us who have not undergone this "conditioning" would respond~~~ (I know no-one wants to think that about themselves.)

I think it is made visible by the editing and comparison of Scientologist's behavior in different units of time in this video. Thanks to Sylvia who posted it elsewhere, and THANK YOU to whoever made it... is it from that old Panorama show? The reporters seems to be Brits.

On a side note, can I say I'm all verklempt :bigcry: (choked up with emotion) seeing the late great Robert Vaughn Young, Ex-Scientologist Extraordinaire, looking so young, vibrant and healthy. God I wish he was still with us, as he could explain this and make it graspable to the really still indoctrinated people so much better than I can. God Bless him, wherever he is now! :bigcry:

I can see the confusion technique at work here...and the results of "training" and conditioning people's minds by using it. Can you see it? It was built into the basic original "tech", and remains there to this day.

Do birds fly? Do fish swim?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqNFYJiGEjM


I think the confusion technique, as explained and described in The Alice in Wonderland portion of this Mind Control textbook (CLASSIFIED US KUBARK Interrogation manual) that Arnie has provided for you to see, exists and is utilized in Scientology indoctrination at all levels...
...and The Rape of the Mind is a great work to help everyone understand how their thought processes work.

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=22499

I see that this confusion technique is laced and threaded all the way through the Scientology tech at all levels. It allows those who would control you to provide you with one stable data to hang on to: such as KSW, or Scientology always works, and is the only hope for mankind! ARC or KRC, or whatever your favorite happens to be.

The indoctrination also tells you that if and when "the tech" doesn't work it is only because you are doing it wrong! :duh: It is being mis-applied, or someone is pts, or has missed withholds. ("What are your Crimes?") Bill Franks has witnessed here on his thread that Ron knew, early on, that missed overts and withholds are not the only reason that people blow. ARC breaks are the real reasons people blow, Ron knew this to be true but he ordered it covered up so as not to harm the cult's general income!

"The confusion technique is designed not only to obliterate the familiar but to replace it with the weird." Ordering an ashtray around, or ordering someone to touch different walls repeatedly, or repeating all the "drills" until they go into a complacent, pliable trance state, etc. is weird. It just indoctrinates people to be controlled and to control others, upon command.

"See my finger" with your eyes shut and your back turned... all the way up to out of body travel "going exterior", whole track past life recall, and all the supposed OT powers stuff that the cult dangles before you like a carrot to gain your compliance and keep you paying for more indoctrination...it's weird!

Sorry guys, but Scientology doctrine, taken in its entirety, is really weird! Anybody who would dispute that just hasn't seen the entire big picture yet, thanks to all the secrecy build into the cult system of operation, secret upper levels, secret land bases, hidden data lines and all! I think the weirdness is built into the doctrine by design, as it serves a purpose to keep people intrigued and stuck to it. Maybe it's weirdly attractive, meaning that humans are pattern seeking critters and our attention does go to randomness. (Oooh, shiney! :D) And look at the popularity of science fiction, new age "Spiritual growth" stuff, the occult, space aliens, telepathy, and other "weird" stuff! Ron knew what kinds of stories sold to people from his days as a pulp fiction writer. :coolwink:

I'm sorry, but there is weirdness at all levels of Scientology "processing". Weirdness that makes you feel really special and above the ordinary unindoctrinated people. Once you have practiced that weirdness enough, you perceive that you are really theta, really OT, really homo novis, which creates a mental construct of separateness from wogs that makes you feel really special, and that only you and your fellow Scientologists really understand what is going on in the world, . This is a technique that was built into the trap. Hello, mystery sandwich! :)

Confusion technique also really explains to me the usefulness and practicality to the cult of all the OT level Wall of Fire/Space Opera weird stuff, which otherwise seems totally insane to an unindoctrinated normal (wog) mind.

Sorry, I know that will sound harsh to some of you. I am not calling anyone here insane. I'm saying I think practicing the tech as designed (even maintaining a habit of doing the "ology" of Scientology outside of the cult structure of the COS) makes you crazy and limits your thinking abilities in ways that you do not easily see or recognize for yourself...until you really get free of the indoctrination and cult mindset. Hindsight being 20/20.

I am not trying to make wrong or be offensive...I am just trying to allow formerly highly indoctrinated people to see their indoctrination from a different viewpoint, and maybe in a whole new light.

I'm not talking to everybody who has already moved on beyond the cult mindset, truly gotten "out" of it. I celebrate your true mental freedom! :happydance:

I'm largely talking to the lurkers and avowed Scientology lovers here.

That some of you, when troubled, might still feel more comfortable with and want to talk with an old friend auditor instead of a new unknown social worker or therapist is totally understandable, especially given the bias against anything nearing psychology or psychotherapy that Scientology purposely inculcates into it's cult members. That bias has been in evidence on this thread and in this discussion. It's one more thing you have to look at and get free from to get really "out" of the Scientology mindset. Then, if and when you ever feel you need help with your thoughts or emotions, you can learn about and experience other methods and forms of counseling for yourself and make up your own mind about them, if they are a good fit for your unique personality or not, and compare and contrast them to the benefits you may feel that you get from auditing... rather than saying to yourself that Scientology auditing is the only one thing that works to help me, or will mankind, which is what you were indoctrinated to believe.

But at some point to be really free of your cult experience, you have to recover and reclaim your own unique personality, not the indoctrinated personality that your Scientology processing has overlaid onto your original authentic self. Some of the members here have done that already, long ago. Some are still engaged in the process of getting free from Scientology's influence over their mind, attitudes and behavior. Some don't even see the need for doing it yet. I get it.

People do like to stay in their comfort zones for the most part, and I get that, too. In asking you to look at the aspects of Scientology processing that have built in mind control techniques, I'm talking to those who are still clinging to the hope that Scientology is good, is beneficial, is harmless, because you spent so much time, money and effort to learn it and get your "spiritual gains", and it makes you feel so special.

Believing that Scientology is the only help for mankind, done either within or outside of the cult, or that Scientology is your only hope for you making your own personal or spiritual gains is just a product of your indoctrination. It's a lie about you! You are bigger and more capable that that.

Curiosity got you into that trap, and curiosity will get you out of it.

Please keep looking! :happydance:

I hope that what I am saying on this thread is making sense to at least some of you. In any event, I've pretty much had my say about it all here.

I'm very grateful that ESMB exists as a medium for various unique personalities and minds with different viewpoints to come together and discuss things.

God bless each and every one of you! I want you to flourish and prosper and thrive as totally free beings! :thumbsup:
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Well, people here are free. And they're doing what they want to do. Not what someone else wants.

Just about all of them have seen at least as many critical materials and videos as you have done.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I'm just saying that it does not pay to make assumptions about non CofS Scn'ists any more than it would to make assumptions about "all critics" or "all Christians" or "all atheists" or "all Hindus" or "All Muslims".

Yet that has happened here.

It's been alleged that Indie (and in my case, ex Indie) Scn'ists haven't read the critical stuff, seen the vids, etc. Yet many of us have done.

So, I'm asking YOU to look and to stop generalizing and assuming.

If you want to know if someone read certain things, ask him or her. Ask WHAT he or she read. Ask what he or she thought.
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
On the last, I have read all the theories, and have heard how we are all silently marching to the tune of the New World Order to some version of a "New World Order".

Personally, I doubt that the USA will ever become a "police state". I could be wrong. And, granted, catastrophic events (real or manipulated) do often create catastrophic "solutions".

For example, the "Patriot Act" was a direct result of 9/11. The catastrophe of 9/11 directly resulted in the "solution" of the "Patriot Act". It could have been all "natural", and it could have been "manipulated" (if the attack on the WTC and the Pentagon were "contrived" (staged) events, intended as a way to loosen up public opinion so that such things as the "Patriot Act" could be passed)

++++++

That is the mechanism of how the system works. Problem, reaction, solution. In Iraq two plain-clothed British soldiers were driving around randomly shooting innocent civillians thereby creating "terror" amongst the locals so that they would welcome curfews and weapons searches etc. They got caught and locked away but with the use of u.s. and british resources they were busted out of jail and removed from the country.

Problem: Here in Australia, we had the absolutely laughable Port Arthur Massacre. Now Martin Bryant had the mental acuity of a 13 year old, and wasn't particularly good at shooting cans and bottles off the fence, but suddenly he had this flash of OATEE POWAZ and was able to execute 35 people with shots through the head whilst aiming from the hip.

Reaction: All the do-gooders up in arms about the damage that could be done with guns.

Solution: Remove the guns from the community through voluntary surrender, and even a buy-back scheme. During this there was a huge amount of corruption going on: weapons recovered from crimes scenes, when entered into the computer, were discovered to have already been handed in!

Result: The public is now "fire-arm free", but the crims aren't.

Murder weapons in Australia in order of popularity:
1. Blunt object;
2. Edged weapon (generally knives);
3. Fire arms.

I mentioned elsewhere that I worked Security for some time, and I was required to carry a pistol. I got used to it, but there was always a personal level of discomfort knowing that it was there.

The u.s. always goes on about the Constitutional Right to carry arms. Because Australia is still technically a British colony, under the Magna Carta, Australians are obliged to carry arms in perpetual readiness to protect the "Commonwealth".
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Nice!

i myself have twice been incarcerated without warrant and subjected to coerced drugging and abuse, i twice witnessed my father lynched for political reasons and get his brain fried with ECT and how about frances farmer?

and for someone who speaks of proof there's an awful lot of presumption and attitude in your post.
You managed to "prove" your point that all psychiatrists, everywhere, are currently and always evil by the use of three unverifiable anecdotes and a very old incident. Well done! I am thoroughly defeated.

And you managed a nice ad hominem to boot, always the sign of a solid argument.

Yes, you proved your generality. CCHR has won! :happydance:

Aside: I used to man those VM tents. I'd give the little tour of the panels representing all of Scientology's claims and "solutions". Time after time one of the "wogs" would get very upset by Scientology's hate-psychiatry poster and would nicely explain how their brother, daughter, grandfather, good friend had been greatly helped by some psychiatrist. Some would even cry when explaining how grateful they were that such help was available and how terrible it was that we were attacking them. I was floored. I believed what CCHR said. CCHR was wrong. There is much, vital good done by the psychiatric profession. And, I do understand that a few psychiatrists, like a few Scientologists, do really horrible things.

You could get rid of your generality and talk about which specific psychiatrists do which specific harm -- rather than painting all psychiatrists with your broad brush.
 
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