Why some Scientologists continue with Scientology

Veda

Sponsor
I have no doubt that there were psychiatrists involved in the prediction of public reaction who had input into the scenario----similar people would have been involved in the psycho-strategy of trigger words and phrases in the publicly released information.

However it is a hugely illogical leap to blame an entire profession for the acts of a few rogues.

PLEASE, don't make this a discussion of your theories about 911. That was not the point in mentioning it.

It's a simple issue: Scientology states that the "psychs" were behind 911. I posted a CCHR video where they say that. The claim is that Osama Bin Laden's doctor is a psychiatrist. His doctor is NOT a psychiatrist. Further claims are that the hijackers were "PDHed" by "psychs" into flying the planes into the buildings.

Simple.

I hesitated to post this, since I knew it might bring out some peoples' theories on 911. BUT it's only about Scientology's application of its Propaganda Tech in exploiting the 911 issue, and about Scientology's nuttiness, and NOTHING ELSE.

OK?

Commander Birdsong, any response? You were the one questioned.
 

Royal Prince Xenu

Trust the Psi Corps.
PLEASE, don't make this a discussion of your theories about 911. That was not the point in mentioning it.

It's a simple issue: Scientology states that the "psychs" were behind 911. I posted a CCHR video where they say that. The claim is that Osama Bin Laden's doctor is a psychiatrist. His doctor is NOT a psychiatrist. Further claims are that the hijackers were "PDHed" by "psychs" into flying the planes into the buildings.

Simple.

I hesitated to post this, since I knew it might bring out some peoples' theories on 911. BUT it's only about Scientology's application of its Propaganda Tech in exploiting the 911 issue, and about Scientology's nuttiness, and NOTHING ELSE.

OK?

Commander Birdsong, any response? You were the one questioned.

I didn't mention 911. I merely commented on your mention of it.

Any big speech made to the public by a high profile person (business or government) is usually checked and modified by at least a psychologist to make sure that it contains the right triggers to get the public reaction that is desired.

The point that I was highlighting was that because one does it, the Church blames all of them through "guilt by association", which would be synonymous with my belting up a German teenager as retribution for the Holocaust.
 
Thanks for kind words!

Sweetness and Light,

Will have more time later...just want to say love ya much, all's well and thanks for the reply. You deserve more time than I have right this moment so I thought I'd just let you know I saw your response and we're cool, you and I.

Thank You, Fluffy, I feel relieved to hear you say that we're cool! :) I really should have been looking more carefully at the way I formatted that post, :duh:. I really didn't intend to :stickpoke: This is a live and learn experience for me! :blush:

I feel like I went from :innocent: to :sadangel: without really trying! :omg: Rats!

Thanks for being so understanding about it! :happydance: Love you too! :love2:

Happy St. Patrick's Day to you and John! :cheers:
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Hi, Sweetness and Light,

I'm glad to hear from you, too. Yesterday was good though I didn't go celebrating or anything. Got taxes done and the resulting refund will defray about half the costs of some emergency home repairs I have to make on my rental. Half a loaf is better than none. I'm cool with it.

Rather than pull up previous posts and doing a long point/counterpoint reply (you can tell I "cut my teeth" on usenet, can't you!), I'll do a kind of recap. And if I miss anything, let me know.

I've been in the critic's scene a long long long time. I've heard many of these arguments before. I understand them. I see a bit of merit to some of them, perhaps. I'm going to attempt to summarize.

One such point goes: If the tech is so good, why do people in the church -and in the FZ according to some reports- act so bugfuck crazy, sometimes incompetent, deaths from cancer and so on?

I think maybe (at least this is how I used to look at it) is that it's a half a loaf is better than none. Scn'ists would rather have some auditing that does SOMETHING even if it doesn't do what's promised. They still think they're getting more results.

Well, how do we know? Why can't they try other stuff? Well, I did try other stuff and I have some friends who did. Some of them cheerfully do different things at different times. Not all FZers are tech purists. I personally think that's a better approach. A lot of FZers won't agree, perhaps. I chalk that up to a "chosen road" type thing.

Honestly, I don't look at these ppl as being much different than my friend who is a staunch Christian even though that clearly has a LOT of science fiction in its books and does not address everything. Pade Pio types are few and far between.

Hubbard was greedy, had weight problems, tax evasion, horrendous family problems and abuses, ordered not only an RPF but an RPFs RPF, other cruelty- how can you follow him?

Non CofS Scn'ists tend not to follow him. They're more interested in ideas. But I have met SOME who did follow him in a way reminiscent of CofS members. I personally think this is not a good idea. Don't follow ANYBODY even if they have an AWESOME track record, much less someone who clearly does not.

Fruit of the poisoned tree argument- with this insanity in the present day church and with Hubbard, how can this shit be any good? It must be tainted.

The thing is, by the time people like myself, probably Terril, Mark and others- found out about Ron the War Hero (and we've ALL read it and most of us believe it's accurate) and stuff like that- we've already had some good auditing and some fun with applying various Scn concepts. We've noted similarities to Vedic ideas re creation, spirituality, etc. So we've had those experiences that were good. We don't have to tell ourselves those weren't any good or they were good or they were anything. They (the experiences) just ARE.

Maybe those who can't do, teach. That would explain a lot.

My solution to this was to just feel free to study other things. Some non CofS Scn'ists do that, too. But some won't. Again, not a great idea but I just don't see it as different from my happy Christian friend.

Another argument: Aren't you supporting CofS by doing this?

My answer: No. CofS fair games Free Zoners. It fucking hates them. Also, some FZers picket and some have gotten people OUT of the cult. PHYSICALLY OUT. That's a good thing.

Argument: but you're referring to Scn and Scn is...see above.

My answer: well, they're saying they have no ties to CofS and that they're FZ Scn'ists or Indies. It's like a Protestant informing you that yes, he's Xtian, but he's not selling indulgences like the Catholic Christians (used to do) because he's not a CATHOLIC XTIAN. He's a PROTESTANT one.

Solution: Increased communication. Make sure everyone knows how we feel.

Argument: how do you know it works? Can you prove it?

My answer: Can you prove that a talk therapist (non Scn) helped you? Not really. It's kind of anecdotal.

My comment: that's why it doesn't pay for Scn'ists to get too insistent on how workable it is and how it's all scientific because it really really isn't.

There are FZers and Indies who take psychiatric meds and who are just fine with that. How do we know they aren't fanatical assbags who diss the entire psychiatric profession without knowing a damn thing about it? Because they tell us so.

My approach to this stuff has sometimes puzzled some of my FZ acquaintances. It's weird, cuz Mark Baker got it IMMEDIATELY. He knew exactly where I was coming from. But some didn't. My solution was to try to explain. Those who were willing to listen, got it. Those who weren't, didn't.

But not listening is not a trait unique to Scn'ists.

We all need to communicate more and I personally believe that no one should stick completely to any one ology and that eventually labels ("I'm an indie Scn'ist" "I'm a Free Zoner" "I'm a this or a that")should be ditched. There should be a willingness to explore other ideas and to change one's path a bit. That won't take away any gains someone got or feels they got from auditing. It will just give life more dimension.
 
Guess what? I don't know you and I take you at your word. Say what you mean and I'll "get it".

No. Geez are you that hard up for negative information about psychiatry that you just make stuff up? This is not what they said and this is not what I said.

I know you hate to hear this, but they were talking about troubled family members who were finally able to live normal lives because of psychiatry. "Normal lives"! Not locked and drugged in some mental dungeon, as your fantasy demands, but able to function normally and live in the real world (Something you might consider).

You've been sold some heavy-duty anti-psychiatry propaganda and seem unwilling to look outside of that tiny mind-trap. That's your problem. The propaganda you spout is propaganda, not truth.

And your little strawman lies about what "people said to me" is stupid and very insulting (and very creepy). I'd rather you not do that.

you are easily insulted.

i stand by my poetic characterization. it is first person experience. some meanspirited smallminded people pulled a nasty psychiatric snuff job on me and baby i ain't the lone ranger in that regard.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
VC: There is one group where you can say "ALL of them" and that is the JREFs.

To you or me, if it looks like shit, and smells like shit, we're pretty much satisfied that it is shit.

However, a JREF must remain completely skeptical as to whether it is shit or not until he has touched it, tasted it and listened to it. Only then will he agree that it's probably shit.

Yah, I'm not a big fan of the hard core skeptic types like The Amazing Randi.

I have a very close friend who's a dyed in the wool skeptic, just thinks it's all bullshit, but doesn't have much of a problem about people believing what they want to outside the confines of the cult.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
Is this where you got the notion of "Problem, reaction, solution" from?

There is a great section in Antony C. Suttons, "America's Secret Establishment: An Introduction to the Order of Skull & Bones". It is a chapter devoted to Hegel's philosophy. Hegel's idea was based on the notion of three key factors. The thesis, the antithesis and the synthesis. Simply:

Hegelian dialectic, usually presented in a threefold manner, was stated by Heinrich Moritz Chalybäus as comprising three dialectical stages of development: a thesis, giving rise to its reaction, an antithesis, which contradicts or negates the thesis, and the tension between the two being resolved by means of a synthesis.


Hegel viewed the evolution of everything, from the beginning of the Universe until now, as following this tension and growth, tension and growth, on and on forever. It is an interesting theory.

Read more on Hegel's Dialetic here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialectic

Certain conspiracy theorists posit that there are elitists out there, with lots of money and lots of power (mega-rich), who have funded research into Hegel's ideas, and came up with the interesting notion that "if this tension will always exist naturally, as some basic law of the universe, well hell, we might as well get in there are CONTROL the tensions and what comes out of the tensions".

Thus you get various international bankers funding BOTH SIDES in WWI and WWII. But, it also leads to other conclusions and actions. For example, when the Japanese were on their way to bomb Pearl Harbor, some say that the US president was WARNED ahead of time, but that he DID NOTHING. Why? Because, the US population was overall very isolationist, and wanted NOTHING to do with another world war. But, Roosevelt felt that the US HAD to get involved, for both political and economic reasons, so he LET THE ATTACK OCCUR, so that THIS "thesis" would create the "antithesis" of a ragingly mad American public, and the result of US at war in Europe. And, of course, WWII was a HUGE tension between world powers that resulted in a new synthesis, and on and on. The big question, of course being, whether there actually are people with such a horrendous absense of any sense of morality that they will happily "stage events" that harm and kill some or even MANY people (i.e. AIDs as an intentionally "created" solution to "over-population" and "less than desirable genotypes" - and also possibly a way to "test out" new versions of "biochemical warfare").

More about that here:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl_harbor.htm

Many "key events", if they were "staged", such as the JFK assassination and the WTC attack of 9/11, might have been planned and enacted according to this "elitist application" of Hegel's Dialetic.

Who knows? :confused2:

So many conspiracy theories, so little time. :omg:

But one thing I learned from involvement with the Church of Scientology. Do not ever underestimate the lengths a person or group will go to to bring about results that align with his or her insane and fanatical view of "better". So it was for Hitler, Stalin, Mao and every other nutbag dictator who was trying to FORCE humanity into rigid alignment with some "intellectual IDEAL" (which exists almost entirely as an IDEA in some person's head). When Hubbard says "Ideal Scene", I say "RUN"!

++++++++

Very good post...I have come to the conclusion that Scientology as an enterprise, you know ABLE, CCHR, Narconon, Criminon, et al, well...it IS a conspiracy.

All these secret orgs to infiltrate the wog world with the sole intent of covertly selling LRH and Scientology to the unsuspecting public...WISE, CATS...how about CAN?

It's a conspiracy in the classic out-dated sense of the word...just like LRH's classic out-dated views.

My two cents worth.

Also, Newlife, I loved my car, too. It was the most beautiful and I also noticed how no one else had an alternative or even had a car at all.

How arcane that they would criticize or even feel eligible to critique my car!! What audacity!!

Then I found out that even though my car "worked" and transported me to wonderful places and areas that it was designed to poison me with an undetectable toxin and, true to the fact that it worked, it was avidly doing so...just as designed!!!

:omg::omg::omg::omg::omg::omg::omg::omg::omg:
 

Helena Handbasket

Gold Meritorious Patron
you are easily insulted.

i stand by my poetic characterization. it is first person experience. some meanspirited smallminded people pulled a nasty psychiatric snuff job on me and baby i ain't the lone ranger in that regard.
IMHO the problem with psychiatry isn't the individuals --- in any group there are good people and bad people --- but with the SYSTEM. Psychiatry is NOT regulated by any outside authority.

It needs to be made completely voluntary. No "commitments" or "self-commitments", and anyone who walks in voluntarily needs to be allowed to leave whenever they want.

No decisions on going in to be made by the "family". Anything has to be decided by the individual, unless there's a medical power of attorney with a SPECIFIC psychiatric clause.

The above would do, although I'd like to see things like ECT banned outright (like they tried to do in Berkeley, California).

Although if psychiatry were to go away altogether, I wouldn't be upset about that.

Helena
 

newlife

Patron
Also, Newlife, I loved my car, too. It was the most beautiful and I also noticed how no one else had an alternative or even had a car at all.

How arcane that they would criticize or even feel eligible to critique my car!! What audacity!!

Then I found out that even though my car "worked" and transported me to wonderful places and areas that it was designed to poison me with an undetectable toxin and, true to the fact that it worked, it was avidly doing so...just as designed!!!

Hello Guanolocoo,

I'm sorry to hear that your car was poisoning you, and I'm truly glad that you found out and abandoned the car.
Obviously it was not the right car for you.
I hope you will soon get rid of all the poison in your body and I wish you to find other means to visit the wonderful places.
.
.
 

anonomog

Gold Meritorious Patron
IMHO the problem with psychiatry isn't the individuals --- in any group there are good people and bad people --- but with the SYSTEM. Psychiatry is NOT regulated by any outside authority.

It needs to be made completely voluntary. No "commitments" or "self-commitments", and anyone who walks in voluntarily needs to be allowed to leave whenever they want.

No decisions on going in to be made by the "family". Anything has to be decided by the individual, unless there's a medical power of attorney with a SPECIFIC psychiatric clause.

The above would do, although I'd like to see things like ECT banned outright (like they tried to do in Berkeley, California).

Although if psychiatry were to go away altogether, I wouldn't be upset about that.

Helena

With respect Helena, some people through birth, life or circumstance are batshit insane and need to be cared for, for their sake and societies. It isn't fair and doesn't make for feel good discussions.

***Don't read further if you find injuries to children distressing****


For a short, extremely unpleasant time I came into contact with brain injured children through my work.
One child had a head injury at birth and in the words of the testing psychologist "is fucked".
There were no redeeming qualities in this child. As a woman it is extremely upsetting even to acknowledge that sentence.
Any capacity to love, feel, enjoy, empathise was gone along with the braincells. The child lives with a primal brain and rage. This is no "I've had a bad childhood" rage it's a "I'm missing the part of my brain that makes rage an occassional emotion, rather than a constant state of being" rage.

No amount of touch, contact, story reading or singing kumbaya helped or is ever going to help. He needs to be cared for, institutionalised for the rest of his life, and I hope he is pumped full of feel good drugs for his sake.
If he is ever released I will bet everything I own that he will make headlines in the worst way.

If there were no institutions and no psychiatrists, how would you handle this, admittedly extreme, but not neccessarily unusual case?

BTW after my experiences I lost all faith and respect in psychology and psychologists, yet I gained a great deal of respect for psychiatrists. I am sure there are exceptions to the rule though.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
I think that psychiatry and psychology are, sometimes, imprecise sciences. But I have met people who had either innate chemical imbalances or had emotional difficulties that were severe enough (regardless of the root cause) so that they needed medication.

I look at psychiatric medication the way I look at abortion. It isn't instrinsically a good thing but sometimes it's necessary and other people should not interfere and tell us we can't avail ourselves of these options.
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
With respect Helena, some people through birth, life or circumstance are batshit insane and need to be cared for, for their sake and societies. It isn't fair and doesn't make for feel good discussions.

***Don't read further if you find injuries to children distressing****


For a short, extremely unpleasant time I came into contact with brain injured children through my work.
One child had a head injury at birth and in the words of the testing psychologist "is fucked".
There were no redeeming qualities in this child. As a woman it is extremely upsetting even to acknowledge that sentence.
Any capacity to love, feel, enjoy, empathise was gone along with the braincells. The child lives with a primal brain and rage. This is no "I've had a bad childhood" rage it's a "I'm missing the part of my brain that makes rage an occassional emotion, rather than a constant state of being" rage.

No amount of touch, contact, story reading or singing kumbaya helped or is ever going to help. He needs to be cared for, institutionalised for the rest of his life, and I hope he is pumped full of feel good drugs for his sake.
If he is ever released I will bet everything I own that he will make headlines in the worst way.

If there were no institutions and no psychiatrists, how would you handle this, admittedly extreme, but not neccessarily unusual case?

BTW after my experiences I lost all faith and respect in psychology and psychologists, yet I gained a great deal of respect for psychiatrists. I am sure there are exceptions to the rule though.

I know what you mean and have also seen examples of people who are completely unable to care for themselves or integrate into society. Very unfortunate, but part of life in the real world.

"Scientology" is notorious for screaming about the abuses of "the psychs" but offering no workable ideas and doing nothing at all themselves to help such people, or to protect the rest of society against those who are, indeed, a danger to themselves and others.

The explanation for this is I think quite simple:

Hubbard needed an "enemy" around which to "rally his troops." He had a personal beef with psychiatry/ psychology and picked them (he also used the government, journalists, etc. etc.).

This had nothing to do with the TRUE errors or abuses within that or the other professions he labelled as "enemy" -- it was a propaganda technique used to manipulate his followers and get them to serve his agenda.
 

Voltaire's Child

Fool on the Hill
Oh, Olska,

You only say that cuz it's true. And it is. You pretty much nailed it. Anyone who took any psychiatric med is deemed a security risk and an illegal pc. They can't get any assistance from CofS, whether or not anyone thinks that auditing is a good thing or harmful.

Hubbard also said they did not have time to work with the psychotic, that first they needed to make the able more able. Well, I haven't seen that this took place either, but either way, no help for the insane.

There are FZ auditors who might take on such a person but whether or not the person would truly be helped by that is debatable. The thing Scn doesn't take into account is that everyone's different. I don't think all "cases" resolve with the same treatment or that they all have the same core implants.

There are times when nothing works or at least not enough and medication is needed. Maybe it's overprescribed at times, maybe there's shit out there with too many side effects, and my guess is that some of the children with prescriptions maybe shouldn't have those prescriptions, but by and large, there are times when the only thing that will help some individuals are psychiatric medications.
 

guanoloco

As-Wased
Hello Guanolocoo,

I'm sorry to hear that your car was poisoning you, and I'm truly glad that you found out and abandoned the car.
Obviously it was not the right car for you.
I hope you will soon get rid of all the poison in your body and I wish you to find other means to visit the wonderful places.
.
.

Well, as you know, there is no car, no toxin and no body...they are all analogies.

However, true to the analogy, I thought that my car manufacturer was ahead of the times and discovered a technology unheard of before. I truly thought that no cars even existed prior to these tremendous discoveries.

Then I learned that the whole technology of cars and their manufacturing were very old hat. In fact, it had already been well documented that they produced these terrible toxins and were factually detrimental in terms of transportation to those beautiful places. Then I learned that the "beautiful places" were actually tributaries that lead away from where I thought I was going. Remember the policy/bulletin where Hubbard talks about leaving people off the bridge in a cave with glitter on the walls or something like that? The one that says even though it's pretty it isn't right to leave them there - remember that one? Well, I found out that's where the bridge was leading to.

Where I once believed that I was wise and lucky to have found cars I now realized that I had been played for a sucker.

The thing actually driving the car wasn't spiritual...it was this and this.

The toxin and beautiful place were this and this. How was I to know that these things in combination were the greatest blockages to spiritual growth? Hell, they felt sooo good! Know what I mean?

Thank god that I read this.

Now I believe I know why there are no other cars.

Remember the Wizard of Oz? It was the scarecrow that came up with all of the ideas...it was the tin man that cried himself to rust...the lion had to face fear and Dorothy could've went home any time she wanted because she had the ruby slippers the whole damned time. How silly of me chasing after bridges and technology when the solutions were in me the whole time!

I look to gurus now for enlightenment and not solutions or answers...which is what a car is. I have no need to travel or go anywhere...I'm already there.

OK, all done with analogies.

That was a good one...thank you!
 

R6Basic

Patron Meritorious
Wow, people are still using the "Car" analogy on this thread (I have not read every page).

But I will say this, the first post was a great answer.

The reason some people still do Scn. is b/c they separate the founder and the organization from what is delivered.

They can say this to themselves "So, Hubbard had 3 wives, at one time he was married to two of them at once. He was divorced twice. At least one of them stated that he was mentally abusive and the last one ended up in prison. One of his sons killed him self and another came out and openly stated that his father cared only for money. *** But Hubbard's TECH on how to raise kids and have a happy marriage still is sound. B/c you see it the TECH and has nothing to do with his life ***"

They can reason like this. "Hubbard died w/ an antidepressant, Vistaril, in his body and needle marks in his butt. *** But Hubbard's TECH on getting off drugs and his powerful auditing practices ( to eliminate things like mental illnesses... like say depression) just HAVE to work b/c he wrote that they DO INDEED work. ***


Or even this... Yes the Organized cult of Scn. isn't ran right. Yes, they are not what Ron had set up. And even though he was to most powerful OT on the planet even he couldn't get the cult run things "Ron's way." *** But They still have his TECH to make things go right so that's why I'm staying in SCN. and doing all this wonderful processes he left us.
 
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