Yo, my beautiful thetans.

JustSheila

Crusader
No, in that post I have never claimed that I am leaving the forum. That is a lie.

Feel free to ask the admins for the history of my edits on that post. I hereby formally consent to having all the versions of that post being presented in public. Feel free to report me for that post.



NOTE: If you go through my posts from the past month, you will see many have an "edit" done on them, as I often go back to fix typos or include an additional quote reply (to avoid double-posting).
Yeh, whatever, that post or an earlier one, you still made it clear that you think this forum is toxic and you are trying your best to get another member who is new (Voodoo) to agree with you. If you subtly sidestepped saying you were leaving outright but inferred the same, it doesn't matter to me. I don't care and it's obvious what you are doing. I am still ignoring you and not taking your bait. I want nothing to do with you. END OF CONVERSATION.

I honestly can't believe I wasted as much time as I have this week talking to you. Bye.
 

Karakorum

supressively reasonable
If you subtly sidestepped saying you were leaving outright but inferred the same <snip>
No, I have not done so. I said that if I come to the conclusion that there is no further benefit to be found on the forum (just angry and/or toxic posters), then I will leave.

I will not leave just because some people would like to have it that way, as long as I still consider that there is something of value on the forums. I dont think I can put this in a more clear and straightforward way.

I honestly can't believe I wasted as much time as I have this week talking to you. Bye.
As you wish - goodbye.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
This thread is a perfect example of what Scientology does which is to tear relationships to shreds.

People who do the Bridge think they have achieved something that places them above others, that they know something now that others don't.

Therefore you have to disconnect with people because they don't gen your knowledge and they are just out to make you lose.

Scientology, even those who keep quiet about it still think they have the edge and cannot communicate with those who they think don't.

Hubbard said it in KSW I that a Scientologist is in the upper echelon of intelligent people on earth so of course anyone else must be not of such caliber.

Someone who has left Scientology is not going to agree that Scientology works on any level.

Those who think the tech is workable have not left Scientology, they only left a situation they didn't like but those same people can find workability in the policies as well which the Independents have done. They are modeloing their church like Hubbards minus a few things they never agreed with anyway.

Those who left, left, and those who didn't want different rules for applying it, but the tech and policy were both written by the same guy and they can't seem to see that.

Somehow there was a Jekyl Hubbard and Hyde Hubbard who were the same body but different personalities. Some people believe Hubbard was gotten to and they changed him. Not a very good resume for an OT

Anyway, Scientology has proven once again it tears relationships to shreds.
 

Voodoo

Free Your Mind And Your Ass Will Follow
Strati can push buttons sometimes, but I think you may have him wrong. I've never known him to be any sort of racist or even prejudiced.

My suggestion is to give it some time because you two don't really know each other. You are certainly welcome here and seemed to be getting along just fine, actually.
Sheila, it was an analogy. That's why I prefaced my statement with the words, "Reminds me of..."

I'm not accusing Strativarius of being racist. What I'm saying is that he's doing the same thing to me, that that real estate salesman did to my parents, albeit for different reasons.

He suggests that I leave ESMB and find some other forum where I'll "fit in" better. That's as bigoted as any racist thing that's ever been said to me. What - I'm not good enough for Strat's company because I admit to having experienced some good from Scientology -- like so many others have done before me on this website?

Thanks for reaching out and trying to mediate this. I appreciate that.

Interesting. I wonder if he's asked others to leave for the same reason.
 

I told you I was trouble

Suspended animation
Sheila, it was an analogy. That's why I prefaced my statement with the words, "Reminds me of..."

I'm not accusing Strativarius of being racist. What I'm saying is that he's doing the same thing to me, that that real estate salesman did to my parents, albeit for different reasons.

He suggests that I leave ESMB and find some other forum where I'll "fit in" better. That's as bigoted as any racist thing that's ever been said to me. What - I'm not good enough for Strat's company because I admit to having experienced some good from Scientology -- like so many others have done before me on this website?

Thanks for reaching out and trying to mediate this. I appreciate that.

Interesting. I wonder if he's asked others to leave for the same reason.

I wish this didn't happen but it does occasionally ... the only time most of us get a bit obstreperous is when some silly arse actually tries to promote scientology here but I've never seen you do that and doubt I ever will.

I'm enjoying the calm way you are communicating your truths and hope you never change.
 

Voodoo

Free Your Mind And Your Ass Will Follow
Good! You express yourself well and you're usually pretty upbeat and even have a sense of humor - something we all need at times. Strati can be grouchy. :grouch: He's got a big heart, though, as I believe you do, too. You may have noticed he and I sometimes crab at each other. We know each other well enough from the forum though, that we don't take it seriously. I really like Strati and think you will, too, once you know him better.

I hope to see you on some of the non-Scientology related threads, too, or maybe you would like to start your own? Just life stuff is nice to chat about and a good way to get to know each other better, too. Health topics of various types are always popular, so are home renovations, creative stuff, art, music... those things we enjoy. Then we can get to know you a little better too, but in a safe way, where you don't have to reveal any personal details but we can see your personality shine through.

You're a bright spirit and twinkle here just fine. Shine on. :hug:

Thank you for the kind words, Sheila.

Strat and I have chit chatted via pm. We're both musicians, and have some reality there. I don't dislike him at all -- just don't know why he all of a sudden up and asked me to leave the forum.

He sort of blindsided me with that post, which prompted a shocked response from me. Here I am, six years peeling off layers of the onion, and he castigates me for having onion layers. Huh? I thought that was one of the prime purposes of ESMB.

So what - only devout anti-Scn's are allowed here? Since when?

I need to go read Emma's mission statement.
 

Voodoo

Free Your Mind And Your Ass Will Follow
Fair enough. Though I think you are making an analogy from a much lesser infranction (exclusion from a forum based on views) to a much more severe one (racism).

Actually, K, the two things are more similar than you might think. Racial discrimination versus religious discrimination -- not much difference, really. Both are scourges on mankind, and have resulted in hundreds of millions of deaths over the centuries. Not much difference.

Yeah, I haven't been here all that long but I had the same feeling of "thought stopping" and "enforcing group agreements" a few times.
I could understand that if it was just limited to opinions about the cult (some people were hurt pretty badly, thus have a very emotional reaction). But some of that "thought stopping" comes up even in threads and topics unrelated to the cult. That's what bothers me the most.

Yeah, I've seen it too, but not to a toxic degree. ESMB seems fairly democratic in most respects. Emma seems to allow free speech to reign, within reasonable boundaries. Heck, I've seen posts written by active church members, and no one tried to shut them up or have them banned. Mostly, people were very helpful and supportive on the threads I've seen.

I hope it wasn't the one you had with me, as we disagreed in a pretty vivid and open manner. To be clear: I do think your views are interesting and I do not not consider our debates to be a loss of time. Even that hot disagreement.

I've got no hard feelings about that conversation, mate. It was just a vigorous debate. We learned a bit about each other.

For the record: I don't expect people to be acceptive or supportive of ex-OSA or ex-ethics officers like myself. That wasn't in the cards. I admitt I was expecting mroe debates based on argumentation and less thought-policing. Just my 0.02 $ on that.

You were brave to disclose that part of your personal history so soon after joining here. Having OSA/Ethics Officer on your CV isn't exactly the kind of thing that ex-Scn's admire.
 

Voodoo

Free Your Mind And Your Ass Will Follow
I wish this didn't happen but it does occasionally ... the only time most of us get a bit obstreperous is when some silly arse actually tries to promote scientology here but I've never seen you do that and doubt I ever will.
No, I doubt you'll ever see me doing that here. I suspect most people arriving at ESMB have a good deal of experience with the cult already, and don't need or want anyone trying to recover them into the fold.

I should add that these conversations can sometimes go astray because people forget to differentiate between Scientology (the theory and practice) and Scientology (the organization). They're two very distinct and separate things. One can be totally divorced from one, while still finding something of value in the other.

Those who've divorced themselves from both of them can sometimes fail to ascertain the other person's degree of acceptance of Scn as a whole. How many layers of the onion have they peeled off? If they're like me, they're down to accepting that the lower Bridge has some validity, but they've rejected the upper Bridge, the organization, and Hubbard as the sole Source of Dn & Scn.

I'm enjoying the calm way you are communicating your truths and hope you never change.
Thank you. I'm just the same old me. What you see is what you get. :)
 

strativarius

Inveterate gnashnab & snoutband
It's called an analogy, K.

I'm not accusing @strativarius of being a racist, but a charge of religious bigotry wouldn't be far off the mark.


Up until last night, I hadn't run into that attitude too much around here, though I knew when I signed up that some people here are virulently anti-Scientology. That's cool. I can handle disagreement with my personal reality. People complain that one is not allowed to think for themselves inside the cult, and that the cult enforces group agreements upon one that are soul crushing. All true, but then some of these same people leave the church and begin enforcing the same thought stopping on others who are trying to find their place in a post-Scientology existence.

I find that hypocritical in the extreme. I wasn't sufficiently devout for the cult, and now I'm not sufficiently devout for the anti-cult. Same bullshit - different cult.


I haven't been here that long, but so far I've only encountered what I consider a 'toxic' conversation a couple of times. For the most part, I've found the members here to be welcoming and supportive, although there are some very devout anti's here.

Ok, thanks for explaining, as that was exactly the impression I had from your previous post.
Listen mate, if I'm bigoted as regards scientology then I'm quite happy to be called one.

I see that you tagged @Emma to draw her attention to this. Bravo!

That's my last word to you on this message board.
 
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Karakorum

supressively reasonable
Actually, K, the two things are more similar than you might think. Racial discrimination versus religious discrimination -- not much difference, really. Both are scourges on mankind, and have resulted in hundreds of millions of deaths over the centuries. Not much difference.
I was not initially thinking of that disagreement in terms of religious discrimination. Once you mentioned it this way, then the analogy to racism makes perfect sense.

Yeah, I've seen it too, but not to a toxic degree. ESMB seems fairly democratic in most respects. Emma seems to allow free speech to reign, within reasonable boundaries.
On forums its always a balancing act. Too much moderation prevents the free exchange of opinions, plus it can spark "baiting" - malicious users trying to provoke others to brake some rule, so they can get reported and banned. Too little moderation can give space for relational aggression by trolls or members with radical ideas and hostile altitudes.

Both extremes are harmful.

I've got no hard feelings about that conversation, mate. It was just a vigorous debate. We learned a bit about each other.
Agreed. No grudges are held on my side as well.

You were brave to disclose that part of your personal history so soon after joining here. Having OSA/Ethics Officer on your CV isn't exactly the kind of thing that ex-Scn's admire.
Thanks.

I'm aware its hardly a popular thing and I wasn't expecting to get any sympathy for it. If someone doesn't trust me because of my previous posts, that's fine with me - I can undestand that.
I can still get annoyed by instances when me being ethics becomes suddenly anathema for someone only after they find out I have different opinions on some matter unrelated to scn.
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
ESMB used to be much more tolerant of the tech favorable denizens. They for the most part left a number of years ago. The mood in 2007 was quite different than today. I miss many of them: Lionheart, Gadfly, Alan, Ted, Leon, nexus, Pandatermint and many many more that had interesting viewpoints and stories to share.
 

Emma

Con te partirò
Administrator
Jeeezuz....when did we get to a point of not even being able to discuss Scientology pros & cons without throwing toys out of the pram. No one on this thread is peddling Scientology. Bits of Scientology are being discussed. For Christs sake, there has to be SOME areas of Scientology that worked or seemed logical that kept us all in for so long. I'm not afraid to tell you what I think was correct/logical/workable....Serfacs/Overt motivator sequence/ARC triangle plus a few more.

Are you going to ask me to leave ESMB?
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
This thread is a perfect example of what Scientology does which is to tear relationships to shreds.

People who do the Bridge think they have achieved something that places them above others, that they know something now that others don't.

Therefore you have to disconnect with people because they don't gen your knowledge and they are just out to make you lose.

Scientology, even those who keep quiet about it still think they have the edge and cannot communicate with those who they think don't.

Hubbard said it in KSW I that a Scientologist is in the upper echelon of intelligent people on earth so of course anyone else must be not of such caliber.

Someone who has left Scientology is not going to agree that Scientology works on any level.

Those who think the tech is workable have not left Scientology, they only left a situation they didn't like but those same people can find workability in the policies as well which the Independents have done. They are modeloing their church like Hubbards minus a few things they never agreed with anyway.

Those who left, left, and those who didn't want different rules for applying it, but the tech and policy were both written by the same guy and they can't seem to see that.

Somehow there was a Jekyl Hubbard and Hyde Hubbard who were the same body but different personalities. Some people believe Hubbard was gotten to and they changed him. Not a very good resume for an OT

Anyway, Scientology has proven once again it tears relationships to shreds.
Why would you say "someone who leaves Scientology is not going to agree Scientology works on any level"

Absurd statement. Large numbers leave and do it outside the church. Many others, like myself leave and go do other things but are still grateful for what we learned and gained from the study.

WOW!

You antiscn's have a greater contempt for truth than Hubbard ever achieved...
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Why would you say "someone who leaves Scientology is not going to agree Scientology works on any level"

Absurd statement. Large numbers leave and do it outside the church. Many others, like myself leave and go do other things but are still grateful for what we learned and gained from the study.

WOW!

You antiscn's have a greater contempt for truth than Hubbard ever achieved...
Oh shoosh already CP, you're late, as usual. :deadhorse: Emma has already commented. End of. :theend:

The rest of FTs post was good, anyway. Let's not get all snickety pickety now.

I can just picture you with a (something) in your hand, swearing with a fist out.

images


Now you settle down now (said with a caring,but lightly stern look). Here's a vid for you that you'll love (final scene):

 
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Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
I just read Emma's recent post and HOORAH! for it

Emma is da BEST!!!

A highly intelligent woman with a keen mind a warm heart a refined concept of truth nd most exemplary COURAGE!
 

freethinker

Sponsor
Why would you say "someone who leaves Scientology is not going to agree Scientology works on any level"

Absurd statement. Large numbers leave and do it outside the church. Many others, like myself leave and go do other things but are still grateful for what we learned and gained from the study.

WOW!

You antiscn's have a greater contempt for truth than Hubbard ever achieved...
There it is right there, you believe Hubbard gave you truth. To me, that means you have not left Scientology, you only left the church.

Do you believe Hubbard wrote everything in Scientology? You left the church because of policy written by him but his tech is OK?
 

Clay Pigeon

Gold Meritorious Patron
There it is right there, you believe Hubbard gave you truth. To me, that means you have not left Scientology, you only left the church.

Do you believe Hubbard wrote everything in Scientology? You left the church because of policy written by him but his tech is OK?

I left staff because after too much bullshit had already piled up some whacked out mission from The Apollo showed up and for reasons unknown removed me from post, told m not to communicate ith staff members and put me on GO lines which office proceeded to ignore me

Everything when ron was alive had a double imprimatur; LRH CSI
 
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