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Is any auditing beneficial?

Veda

Sponsor
I ask because the word "auditing" has multiple definitions, starting with the (in and of itself) harmless, "to listen," and changing (bait and switch style) as one descends more deeply into the subject of Scientology.

Is there any kind of "auditing" - which, after all, is an English language word - that can be separated from Scientology and used to help others?

Is the idea of "auditing," in its most benign manifestation, worth saving?


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PS: Besides "listening," the act of "looking," or having others look, is another part of the (in and of itself) benign definition of "auditing."
 
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PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think so. I really enjoyed the lower grades. Things were a bit different 30 years ago though. Today's co$ is so toxic I don't think it would be the same.
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
If you just define it as to listen then this is practiced everywhere by most humans and it certainly isn't going to stop.
 

Leland

Crusader
Interesting OP Veda!

A deep subject for sure.

That Hubbard took common English language words....and gave them entirely different meanings.....I don't know.

If you are looking to use a common English usage of the word....and then say, this is what Cult Auditing is....then perhaps an Accountants auditing some financial books might pertain....at certain points on the Cult Bridge.

If an Accountant......sat a business owner in a chair.....and took his financial books......and took one bookkeeping entry....say a debit of $100,000. for the purchase of 1000 office chairs....and asked the owner about that bookkeeping entry.....over and over and over.....well....some interesting things might happen. Least of which the business owner would quickly fire the Accountant and get a new one. Or a session in which the Account asks about expense account charges for a business trip....that the owner took with that nice looking assistant....

There is a lot more to Cult Auditing....that each party has to be educated in.....indoctrinated in.....to even have the semblance of a "cult session."

Let us look at one aspect:

The Auditor "holding the space" and "making it safe" for the one receiving the Auditing to "look inward." ( or at his or her "bank"....or mind....or ....memory storage area....

This is playing with fire...IMO.

I don't think a discussion about, "is some aspect of auditing worth saving".....unless we first took a look at the person being audited.....what a person is....what a mind is....and various other aspects. And took a look at the Auditor....and the "team" that backs him up....and where he has gotten his "technology from..." and what the purpose of that technology is.

As an Auditor myself....I was sometimes astonished at how different ( I hate to use this word ) PCs did the auditing.

Some just didn't go that "deep." Most IMO didn't understand the ramifications of what they were or were not saying.

Some went very deep...and really dug stuff up....

There was no "system" in place within Hubbard's Auditing Technology to address that issue.

IMO, all people are different...and are going to participate within an Auditing situation differently....and Hubbard just didn't take that into account.

So.....this left me thinking that even though...lets say a group of people....all had ...say Grade Zero.....and the "ep" was the same....In reality.....what they did during those sessions....was entirely different.....and their results and "changed conditions" were completely different.

This IMO was playing with fire.
 

Leland

Crusader
Is any auditing beneficial?

IMO...there are fundamental differences of opinion in what the heck is "being addressed" when one is "auditing" another human being.

For Hubbard....it was a "Thetan"....no form....no wave length....no position in space....but one that can look and can create space by looking...( or something like that. ) ( I'm not going to pull out the technical dictionary....)

That to me is really now where...literally.

To be in "Present Time" ......would IMO be incredibly distasteful.

Just as an example. Craftsmen spend years learning how to use a tool....or a brush...or a piece of equipment. They can spend many a year...learning the properties of the material that they are using that tool upon....be it wood, cloth, metal...or whatever.

Being in present time...in its literal sense, would mean NO MEMORY.....and then everything would have to be done in a new unit of time. Well.....there goes years of training.....years of learning.....and things couldn't get done, or done properly.

In Scientology....supposedly, "one doesn't have to come back if one doesn't want to...."

So we are talking an extremely blissed out state there. ( if that is possible. )

Personally I believe Hubbard Tech...actually has his "victims" of auditing.....auditing off their legs and arms....

The Thetan....IMO ....is some sort of Oval shape.....without appendages...

This is different from "And God created Man in his own image.."....which to me certainly means arms and legs....

I think this causes problems for people getting auditing.

I can recall many a time....I literally had to hold my PC up....to get them to the examiner....because they could hardly walk....or kept their bodies upright.

This brings up another aspect of "what is being audited".....spiritual bodies....and what they are.

What is the relationship between a spiritual body and a physical body.....


What I occasionally rant here on ESMB about....is that Hubbard made a mistake....in what was the "person."

I believe he didn't realize or understand the entirety of what Humans are....

IMO....Hubbard only got some of it....and his technology is very incomplete....and playing with fire.

And that Auditing is very dangerous....in that regard.
 

lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
I prefer listen

We can listen to someone voicing joy, concern, pain
we can listen to how a person feel without this person voicing it
we can listen by being attentive to a person and to an environement.

We can feel we are listened to just by the way the person is attentive or careful to us!
 

Leland

Crusader
While on the Saint Hill Briefing Course at AHSO...for 3 1/2 years.....I student audited a PC by the name of Barbara for over 1000 hours on Grade Zero.

This was under the guidance of Chris Montgomery....BC IC and an OT 8.....that trained under Hubbard on the Apollo.

Of course I queried the length of this operation...numerous time...and was told to keep going.

I believe my PC had SPECTACULAR results....and that I did a spectacular job of auditing her.....but....I don't believe this was all in all...just Grade Zero.

I believe that the repercussions of what I had done with this PC went all the way to Senior C/S International Ray Mittoff....( I wrote him a letter about it...)

The result of which....I was shortly thereafter viciously attacked and ended up walking away from the Cult....


Most evenings...when I had finished auditing.....and I was walking my PC to the Examiner.....I knew I had to hold her up....just so she didn't fall down.

I could see white cylindrical beams....( more like rods...extending from by body)....(arms of a sort, if you like ) with which I gently held her upright....and moving down the hallway to the Examiner.)

I believe others saw this too.

Yes....there most certainly is "something to auditing...." and auditors.....


I would very much like to get in touch with the woman I audited in LA.....these 17 years later....on Grade Zero....and find out how she is doing...and what she thought of our sessions.

But try as I might.....even though I wrote here last name probably hundreds and hundreds of times....I can't today, remember what it was.

If anyone here knows "the field" in LA.....I could describe her....and her family....and how she made her living....and perhaps someone would know her...and help me get in touch.
 
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lotus

stubborn rebel sheep!
About auditing: a kid, and animal can't audit you..

About listening..a baby, a kid, a dog, a cat can listen to you and share your emotions.
It's free, and mindful!
 

Leland

Crusader
Just wanted to say....one thing about my last post.

I did like ( for the most part my auditor training in the Cult...) and the results...

But what I don't know....is:

What the hell did I do to my PC?

OK....I audited her on Grade Zero.....but those are just words.

What happened to her.....as I delivered that level? Who knows?

What was the change that happened to her?

What does anyone know about this really?
 

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
I'm with Lotus. Talking to a good friend who gets you, is better than any auditing session.

On the other hand, I've had auditing sessions where I THOUGHT I had some major realization about some past track thing, and felt "blown out" for a little while, but it only led to subsequent actions that did not make me feel better, in fact disaster several times.

Looking back on it all.... a wild crazy goose chase but no clear, no OT, no super beings, no super powers.
 

Gib

Crusader
I ask because the word "auditing" has multiple definitions, starting with the (in and of itself) harmless, "to listen," and changing (bait and switch style) as one descends more deeply into the subject of Scientology.

Is there any kind of "auditing" - which, after all, is an English language word - that can be separated from Scientology and used to help others?

Is the idea of "auditing," in its most benign manifestation, worth saving?


11505089.jpg


PS: Besides "listening," the act of "looking," or having others look, is another part of the (in and of itself) benign definition of "auditing."

I understand, the problem with scientology/Hubbard is that when one looks enough they are supposed to go clear and then OT, don't you think?

So the auditing is not beneficial if one thinks with the whole goal of Hubbard which is to produce a clear and then OT?
 

Dave B.

Maximus Ultimus Mostimus
While on the Saint Hill Briefing Course at AHSO...for 3 1/2 years.....I student audited a PC by the name of Barbara for over 1000 hours on Grade Zero.

This was under the guidance of Chris Montgomery....BC IC and an OT 8.....that trained under Hubbard on the Apollo.

Of course I queried the length of this operation...numerous time...and was told to keep going.

I believe my PC had SPECTACULAR results....and that I did a spectacular job of auditing her.....but....I don't believe this was all in all...just Grade Zero.

I believe that the repercussions of what I had done with this PC went all the way to Senior C/S International Ray Mittoff....( I wrote him a letter about it...)

The result of which....I was shortly thereafter viciously attacked and ended up walking away from the Cult....


Most evenings...when I had finished auditing.....and I was walking my PC to the Examiner.....I knew I had to hold her up....just so she didn't fall down.

I could see white cylindrical beams....extending from by body....(arms of a sort, if you like ) with which I gently held her upright....and moving down the hallway to the Examiner.)

I believe others saw this too.

Yes....there most certainly is "something to auditing...." and auditors.....


I would very much like to get in touch with the woman I audited in LA.....these 17 years later....on Grade Zero....and find out how she is doing...and what she thought of our sessions.

But try as I might.....even though I wrote here last name probably hundreds and hundreds of times....I can't today, remember what it was.

If anyone here knows "the field" in LA.....I could describe her....and her family....and how she made her living....and perhaps someone would know her...and help me get in touch.


1000 hours ! Isn't that a bit unusual?
 

Leland

Crusader
Yes, I would think so.

I doubt many had more than a couple hundred on their entire lower levels....Grades Zero thru Grade 4...

But that is not the point of my imparting this information....


It is difficult to talk of "auditing" and not talk of the structure within which auditing is delivered...and the structure of "the bridge."

The structure that a "PC" is indoctrinated with...to be a PC....

I think it would be difficult to separate these out....and just talk about "auditing."
 
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Hypatia

Pagan
I liked some of it. Creative processing was fun. Facing up to things in session seems helpful. So I'm ok with having done it. But I've gone to a great psychologist; accredited and all that but a bit unconventional. I really got a lot out of going there. Point being Scio and its possible benefits are just one out of numerous therapies.
 

WildKat

Gold Meritorious Patron
I think auditing probably works better when you really believe in it and have expectations of feeling better.

....just like a placebo.

This is bolstered by hearing others share "wins"

....which they must, if they don't want to get sent to Qual and the Reg for more review.
 

arcxcauseblows

Patron Meritorious
your question, along with scientology and independant scientology, is a death march [WIKI]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_march_(project_management)[/WIKI]

please don't associate good things with scientology (TM), you can't by definition, it's altering it, you have to leave the bad bits in there and let it rot, word clear ksw until you realize that

if you were to parse out your favorite bits, you cannot call it scientology

you might as well start completely from scratch, call it gibology, or any other name that preferably has nothing to do with toxic cult trademarks, unless you also, lie, use drugs, take science fiction too seriously, and destroyed your own family and a wake of cult sheep's lives...

i'm %100 certain your ideas will be an improvement over his
 

Free to shine

Shiny & Free
I ask because the word "auditing" has multiple definitions, starting with the (in and of itself) harmless, "to listen," and changing (bait and switch style) as one descends more deeply into the subject of Scientology.

Is there any kind of "auditing" - which, after all, is an English language word - that can be separated from Scientology and used to help others?

Is the idea of "auditing," in its most benign manifestation, worth saving?



PS: Besides "listening," the act of "looking," or having others look, is another part of the (in and of itself) benign definition of "auditing."


No.

Because there is no auditing in scientology that can be separated out from the basic concepts such as 'you have a reactive mind' and all that entails.
 

Dulloldfart

Squirrel Extraordinaire
To answer this question, one needs to know what is meant by "auditing". I'll answer that by pasting in a post I made a few months ago in a great thread asking if auditing is a form of hypnosis.

Well, let's see . . . .

The definition of auditing in the Tech Dictionary starts off:

1. the application of Scn processes and procedures to someone by a
trained auditor. (BTB 30 Sept 71 IV) 2 . the action of asking a preclear a
question (which he can understand and answer), getting an answer to that
question and acknowledging him for that answer.

The other definitions don't really add much to those two different concepts. Definition 1 is a catch-all one, but it's tautological, basically saying that auditing is what happens in an auditing session. I like it though as it's hard to argue with in broad terms, and covers Objective processes, Dianetics processes, Grades-type processing including Listing & Nulling, as well as Solo Auditing on OT2, OT3, and OT7. It even covers botched sessions where the auditing program is wrong, the auditor is bad, and the pc is protesting the whole thing. :)

The problem with things like Definition 2 is that while it is correct as far as it goes, how is this different to a mate asking "How's tricks?" in the pub over a beer (assuming he grunts or something in response to your answer)? It does use the word "preclear", which limits it to a Scn context, but that's kinda cheating if you want to get into the nitty-gritty of what IS auditing. If the pub example is too extreme, how about a (non-Scn) counsellor in a session asking a question about something troubling the client, listening to the answer, and showing she understood what was said without telling the client what to think about it? Would that be auditing?

In layman's terms, I think the essence of auditing is (1) find something hot to address, and (2) cool it off. Immediately this gets tricky because of a lack of agreement on how the mind works. It's easy to describe (1) -- the best example is probably what happens at a Scientology Stress Test table. Namely, the [STRIKE]mark[/STRIKE] person is hooked up to an e-meter and the Scn person says, "Think of something stressful" or words to that effect. Without any conscious thought something would usually spring to mind and simultaneously the needle on the meter would dive off to the right. The Scn person would then point out something, maybe that the meter just showed a thought and isn't that amazing and Scientology can help you so give me your money. What's important here is not the scummy Stress Test table set-up, but the non-analytical triggering of something "hot". It's not auditing because the second part, the cooling off, doesn't usually get done there on the street. It's not really a big deal that it doesn't get cooled off then and there because life triggers stuff all the time, and it tends to cool off all by itself after a while.

There shouldn't be a lot of argument over this first part, (1). However, the second part, "cooling it off," will be contentious. In layman's terms, what just got triggered by the "think of something stressful" command could be considered part of a person's emotional baggage. The more stressful it is, the harder it is to shake it off, to put one's attention on something else. There are two ways of "cooling it off": the first, and most common, is to direct the person's attention onto other things. A simple example is with a baby who gets upset at something trivial, and you direct his attention onto something else and he can rapidly snap out of it. With an adult it might be, "Hey Joe, you look miserable, let's go down the pub and see if we can score with those girls we saw last night!" "Right on, Dick! Hell yeah." The hot item that got triggered still exists to bite the person later on sometime, but for now it has been shunted aside and is dormant.

The second way to "cool it off" is the contentious one. It is to discharge it, to get rid of it, so it's no longer there as part of a person's emotional baggage to get triggered again in the future. This can be addressed in many different ways. The most common is just talking it out, whether out loud to someone or in writing in a journal or on a message board. The action of looking it over and sorting things out in one's mind sufficient to put the thing into coherent (more or less) words seems to be the therapeutic factor here, of varying effectiveness. But there are other less common procedures too: PaulsRobot is full of them, for instance. :)

Auditing is thus finding something hot to address and cooling it off. Scientology rudiments (there's a PaulsRobot version at http://paulsrobot3.com/scn/ruds/instructions.htm but it's deliberately written in Scn lingo) are designed to "shunt it aside"; Scn Grades are supposed to gently discharge these hot items bit by bit with the full erasure taking place later on. In contrast, I designed most of PaulsRobot to deliberately trigger hot stuff and immediately discharge (i.e, get rid of) what just got triggered.

I haven't tried to classify the different things labelled "auditing." I think the above is much more valuable. :biggrin:

Paul

And lastly, what is "beneficial" -- beneficial to whom? If the recipient/consumer says yes, it was beneficial, is that sufficient? If some BDSM adherent gets the skin flayed off his back and says he loved it and comes back next month for more, does that count as beneficial?

I'm guessing that well-known philosophers have dissected this subject (beneficence, not flagellation) far better than I could, so I'll leave it alone beyond tossing out that it matters here!

Paul
 
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Hatshepsut

Crusader
Just wanted to say....one thing about my last post.

I did like ( for the most part my auditor training in the Cult...) and the results...

But what I don't know....is:

What the hell did I do to my PC?

OK....I audited her on Grade Zero.....but those are just words.

What happened to her.....as I delivered that level? Who knows?

What was the change that happened to her?

What does anyone know about this really?

I think Scientology over vectorizes people. Sometimes when I ran conditions on Power or Service facsimiles, it seemed that I was in all of the vectors. Holding all the identities in the condition being brought about like a play. Communication gets parts directing live attention to other parts and unlocks rooted vectors. I was thinking about the question you just asked last night Leland. What is really going on in audting. What is happening. Late last night I stumbled onto a youtube video on the beginnings of neo-platonism. It blew me out of the water because it was so similar to how I started to view what could be happening on NOTS.

This is very dry. It's a computer voice. But listening to the Plotinus' work questioning 'what are the parts of man' and how they relate and how add-ons to the soul change its composite nature so that it is now a different kind of soul akin to running a new form ...Well anyhow, I never did get it as a Scientologist, all those flows. Didn't think they were necessary at all and resented being asked the questions. But last night I could see concepts I'd not paid attention to.

https://youtu.be/TKnFqeEb-q8

This brings up another aspect of "what is being audited".....spiritual bodies....and what they are.

What is the relationship between a spiritual body and a physical body.....


What I occasionally rant here on ESMB about....is that Hubbard made a mistake....in what was the "person."

I believe he didn't realize or understand the entirety of what Humans are....

IMO....Hubbard only got some of it....and his technology is very incomplete....and playing with fire.


And that Auditing is very dangerous....in that regard
 
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