Tony O asks why we believe in Xenu

[Veda]

-snip-

I've always thought that the success of OT3 (where it was successful for the person doing it) was more about the fact of having acknowledged and communicated to a particular Entity/BT/Bit Of Life-Force Wiggle than due to the narrative of Incident 2. To me Incident 2 might well be viewed as an "acceptable explanation" as to how/why such Beings (if they are, in fact, Beings) find themselves in the condition they are *apparently* in.

-snip-

That's an old "tech explanation"-attempt to soften the hard edges of the mind f__k. Maybe you're trying to be optimistic, and look on the sunny side, but the sunny side of mind f__k is still not so nice.

Would you, today, recommend that others do OT 3?

 

[Veda]

Wow. So the Ability Gained for OT III is not for YOU it's for the fucking BTs --- seriously?

-snip-

"Freedom from overwhelm," as an "ability gained," has always meant the "freedom from overwhelm" of the person writing the checks and sitting in the chair (not the "BT").

The condition of the "BT" is also changed - he's just been evicted from his home, and supposedly is happy about it - but the 'Ability Gained," by being rid of ones "fleas," is by the Scientologist.

 

[Panda Termint]

That's an old "tech explanation"-attempt to soften the hard edges of the mind f__k. Maybe you're trying to be optimistic, and look on the sunny side, but the sunny side of mind f__k is still not so nice.

Well, I just spat it out as it came to me. It's not indicative of any agenda or attempt at making things look other than they are. It's what I thought this morning in response to what I'd read on the thread. I'm just saying what I think here and now, I may think differently about it at another time.

Would you, today, recommend that others do OT 3?

No, probably not, I'd suggest that they explore alternate avenues, depending on what they were seeking. I'm on the record here at ESMB as stating unequivocally that I wouldn't recommend the CofS Bridge to my worst enemy (even if I had one).

If someone told me they were set on doing the Upper Levels, I probably wouldn't try to dissuade them or be too concerned for their safety, though. There are undoubtedly dangers inherent in this form of mind-meddling but I think that is probably true of many practices.

 

[Smilla]

Well, I just spat it out as it came to me. It's not indicative of any agenda or attempt at making things look other than they are. It's what I thought this morning in response to what I'd read on the thread. I'm just saying what I think here and now, I may think differently about it at another time.



No, probably not, I'd suggest that they explore alternate avenues, depending on what they were seeking. I'm on the record here at ESMB as stating unequivocally that I wouldn't recommend the CofS Bridge to my worst enemy (even if I had one).

If someone told me they were set on doing the Upper Levels, I probably wouldn't try to dissuade them or be too concerned for their safety, though. There are undoubtedly dangers inherent in this form of mind-meddling but I think that is probably true of many practices.

Look over there >

Don't look here <

 

[Panda Termint]

"Freedom from overwhelm," as an "ability gained," has always meant the "freedom from overwhelm" of the person writing the checks and sitting in the chair (not the "BT").

The condition of the "BT" is also changed - he's just been evicted from his home, and supposedly is happy about it - but the 'Ability Gained," by being rid of ones "fleas," is by the Scientologist.

I have honestly never thought of it as meaning I would be free of overwhelm, I knew far too many OT3 Completions to have ever believed in that. I've written elsewhere on ESMB about the "motorcycle tyre incident" where I learned that lesson. ( link http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...-Be-Gained-In-Scientology&p=553007#post553007 )

I've never thought of BTs as "fleas" and find that description very distasteful. Yes, I know Hubbard and others used it but I never did. Whenever I was dealing with that sort of phenomena I treated any Entity/BT/Identity with the same care and respect that I gave to every PC I ever audited. I certainly never felt like I "got rid of" a PC, when I was auditing I always thought I was "freeing Beings". This attitude may well have contributed my mostly positive experience on these Levels, I think.

It is an area I don't mind discussing but the ONLY time I ever think about such things is when someone else brings it up. I don't dwell on these misconceptions.

 

[Panda Termint]

Look over there >

Don't look here <

Is that really what you took from what I wrote?

 

[Smilla]

Is that really what you took from what I wrote?

Yeah, pretty much

 

[Demented LRH]

Please don't quote the entirety of Tony's article. It both violates his copyright and pisses him off.

Paul

I do not think that Tony will object if someone quotes his article as long as he is mentioned as its author. Besides, Mimsey quoted a small portion of the article. We do similar things at OCMB on regular basis, and so far we have no complain from Tony.

 

[Veda]

I have honestly never thought of it as meaning I would be free of overwhelm.

-snip-

That's nice, but the abilities gained, end results, and awareness characteristics on the Hubbard Bridge Grade Chart have to do with the Scientologist.

Now you know.

 

[Panda Termint]

Yeah, pretty much

errrr.... OK.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

--snip---

"Freedom from overwhelm," as an "ability gained," has always meant the "freedom from overwhelm" of the person writing the checks and sitting in the chair (not the "BT").

..

Just moments after the being attests to OT III, the Pre-OT learns that they are nonetheless still at great risk from higher, yet even more advanced materials.

Typically (because the thetan's awareness & confront has been raised so high) the various charge(s) from the next OT Level begins to kick in during their completion routing form, while visiting one of their personal spiritual guides called a registrar.

That's when the being suddenly realizes that while they have attained 'Freedom From Overwhelm", they have not yet attained 'Freedom From Overdraft'.​

 

[Panda Termint]

That's nice, but the abilities gained, end results, and awareness characteristics on the Hubbard Bridge Grade Chart have to do with the Scientologist.

Now you know.

I already knew that, of course. Hubbard, Registrars and scientology materials claimed a lot of things as to Abilities Gained from scientology, whether or not you chose to believe the marketing hype was up to you I guess. I chose to keep my own counsel about such things.

I understand that it would be much more acceptable if I just agreed with you and others who take me to task for presenting an alternative viewpoint as regards the scientology experience but, just as I did whilst being a scientologist, I choose to keep my own counsel here.

 

[freshmusician]

..

Just moments after the being attests to OT III, the Pre-OT learns that they are nonetheless still at great risk from higher, yet even more advanced materials.

Typically (because the thetan's awareness & confront has been raised so high) the various charge(s) from the next OT Level begins to kick in during their completion routing form, while visiting one of their personal spiritual guides called a registrar.

That's when the being suddenly realizes that while they have attained 'Freedom From Overwhelm", they have not yet attained 'Freedom From Overdraft'.​

 

[Veda]

-snip-

(And BTW I believe the Xenu story literally.)

Helena

Thank you for being honest about your beliefs.

Marty Rathbun believes it too, and he also knows that incidents, per Scientology tech, are literal, but, currently, he's doing a "PR handling" on the "wogs" as part of his (self assigned) "mission" to bring about acceptance of L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology.

 

[Demented LRH]

Some people believe in non-existing entities such as spirits, astral projections, etc., simply because they were told that these entities exist. These people are sometimes called fantasy-prone personalities. Scientology auditing is used to induce hallucinations in such individuals. Percentagewise, their number is small, perhaps, less than 10% of the population. This explains why vast majority of the Scientologists who go OT do not experience hallucinations. The cult officials declare them SP because they do not want too many of them to hang around -- their mere presence shows that the OT auditing is used to bullshit unsuspecting public.
This selection procedure keeps Scientology working.

When I was a Scientologist, I was also an atheist who did not believe in thetans (I wanted to continue Hubbard’s research in Dianetics, that is why I became a Scientologist). People like me cannot experience the Xenu hallucinations, so when they go OT they are told that their coverts and withholds prevent them from reaching the OT levels. After that they are declared SP.

I made no attempt to become an OT, but I was making phone calls to the ex-Scientologists trying to bring them back to the fold. Apparently, the person who compiled the list that I was using did not know that they were SPs. They told me their “horror stories” of being declared SP for no reason. They wanted to go OT, but for some reason they could not. The e-meter was showing that they did not have overts and withholds, but they were declared SP anyway.

 

[TG1]

For Tony and anyone else who cares:

I've read a lot of threads on different boards about OT3 and ex-Scientologists' experiences with it.

What commonly occurs is that when people start talking about their OT3 and upper-level auditing experiences, arguments break out:

I experienced X and interpreted XX!

What? I experienced Y and interpreted YY!

Well, you stupid fuck, you weren't doing it right!

No, U!
​

And then all the people who didn't do OT3 chime in and tell all the people who did do OT3 how stupid they were or how they didn't understand the level correctly or they didn't audit it right.

I did OT3. I didn't care for it. It wasn't my cup of tea. It was boring. It was disappointing. It wasn't at all what I thought the upper levels in Scientology might be about. I sure as hell didn't get into Scientology to audit BTs. I "didn't know they were there" until the OT3 materials said they were. Throughout the entire level I was absolutely convinced that I had never been through anything like Incident 2 -- in any of the roles described in the materials. I told this to anyone who'd listen to me -- the course supervisor, the C/S (in my worksheets) and the examiner.

Regarding the BTs, I didn't care about them at all. I felt no sympathy for them. I didn't like them. I thought of them as less than me. They were wasting my time.

And then later on OT4, after believing I was finally through with the stupid BTs, there were more of them. It was also obvious that the upper bridge was going to be about more and more BTs.

I never did another OT level after that.

And now, decades later, what do I think about BTs?

Nothing. They still bore me.

It should be clear to anyone who's read this thread through that Scientologists think a lot of different things about BTs and Xenu and OT3 and beyond. As do ex-Scientologists.

TG1

 

[Veda]

..

Just moments after the being attests to OT III, the Pre-OT learns that they are nonetheless still at great risk from higher, yet even more advanced materials.

-snip-

​

From 1968 - 1978, the person "had no more BTs." Only after 1978 were people on the OT levels told they had more BTs. If they balked, then they were told that, if they didn't think they had any more BTs, then that meant they're loaded with BTs.

Eventually, they found lots and lots of more BTs, and got with the program.

After all, this was the big missing step on the Grade Chart that would finally make full Operating Thetan possible. (Before that, people would go to Flag [the ship or Base] to "get their Ls," as the missing piece on the "Bridge" that explained why they weren't really "OT.")

It's a pattern.

In 1966, for a while, there was no more "case" after the Clearing Course, and one could then just do OT drills, etc.

It's the "let the reins loose," "tighten the reins," "build 'em up," "break 'em back down," etc. game.

 

[Infinite]

For Tony and anyone else who cares:

I've read a lot of threads on different boards about OT3 and ex-Scientologists' experiences with it.

What commonly occurs is that when people start talking about their OT3 and upper-level auditing experiences, arguments break out:

I experienced X and interpreted XX!

What? I experienced Y and interpreted YY!

Well, you stupid fuck, you weren't doing it right!

No, U!
​

And then all the people who didn't do OT3 chime in and tell all the people who did do OT3 how stupid they were or how they didn't understand the level correctly or they didn't audit it right . . . <snip> . . .

Heh! I love it when that happens. I've also seen it more than a few times with "going Clear". The end result, of course, is that it becomes ever more apparent that there is no "agreement" about Clear, or OT, or whatever, which, as per L Ron Hubbard, means there is no "reality" about such things either. Delish. No wonder there was a rule about not discussing "case".

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

...

Would you, today, recommend that others do OT 3?

--snip--

No, probably not, I'd suggest that they explore alternate avenues, depending on what they were seeking.......

If someone told me they were set on doing the Upper Levels, I probably wouldn't try to dissuade them........

The use of the word "probably" is probably scaring me.

SEEKER
Wow, you are an OT VIII. You know, I am thinking
of doing Upper Levels. What do you advise?

OT VIII
Well, that is a difficult question to answer.
It depends.

SEEKER
Depends? On what?

OT VIII
Are you totally set on doing the Upper Levels?

SEEKER
Probably.

OT VIII
Then I would advise that it is mathematically
probable that you will do the Upper Levels.

SEEKER
I get that, but I was asking about whether
you advise doing the Upper Levels.

OT VIII
Since you are set on doing the Upper Levels, I
probably would not try to persuade you.

SEEKER
So you're saying you think it's a good idea then?

OT VIII
What you are saying is within the laws of
mathematical probability.

SEEKER
Are you able to just answer YES or NO
if you think it is a good idea for me to do OT III?

OT VII
Yes, I probably am able to answer that.
And I probably would not evaluate for you
if your mind is set.

SEEKER
Wow, I knew it was a good idea. Thanks!
​

 

[Panda Termint]

...

The use of the word "probably" is probably scaring me.
....

Don't be afraid. I live in a Universe where probability is a factor. If someone asks me a question, I try to answer honestly; hence the "probably". You'll probably understand what I mean.

But just in case you don't, please note that I also said in the same sentence, the one where you snipped, "I'm on the record here at ESMB as stating unequivocally that I wouldn't recommend the CofS Bridge to my worst enemy (even if I had one)."

I'm guessing that you can accurately assess the likelihood of me actually doing anything such as your script above suggests.... probably.