The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

My post was just a post, not a thread. I never said it was my thread and I never said anyone had to ever be in any way interested in my posts. If I feel my posts are not of interest here because no one responds, I'll stop posting to this thread. I have on occasion started threads.

Just a note to Leland to back up what Maria said when answering you. This thread is not my thread either and it is not CO2's thread. I am the OP and CO2 came up with the overall concept and he and I agreed to co host the thread originally. CO2 liked the name of the thread and he decided to keep it and I agreed to go along with him on that decision so that is THE ONLY REASON why I am the OP!

I would be less than truthful if I did not admit that being the Original Poster on a thread on ESMB nearing 2 million hits does not does not tweak my ego. Of course I am happy that this has occurred and I an the beneficiary of some adulation when people meet me at events and find out that I am Lakey. I have put a lot of effort into creating the thread and keeping it going.

That being said, I would like to say that this thread is Leland's thread, it is Maria Cuervos thread and is the thread of many other people, Enthetan, Foti, Sweetness and Light, Johnny the Magic Thetan and even people who don't like me or have resented me from time to time such as Mark A Baker, Roger B., Face, Ted, and Auditor's Toad. It is the thread of Just Shiela, Gib and Gizmo, Hatsheput and hundred's of others. The list is so long that I have to leave off scores of key contributors but they know who they are.

Make no bones about it, I consider Maria one of the top contributors to the thread. She is unique in many ways, being the recipient of a great deal of formal education, being a good and entertaining writer and writing on a wide variety of very interesting topics. Though she has posted here for less than three months, I consider here one of the top contributors to the thread. You too, Leland, you don't post that often and your posts are short but they are insightful and have a quality of being both honest and sincere!
Lakey

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Sorry I'm a bit cranky today. I ate pancakes, which I rarely do, loaded with maple syrup. I hardly ever have anything sweet so when I do have I get overloaded and so on. Like in that game mousetrap, I end up in that cute yellow barrel at the bottom.

 

[Leland]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

When Maria wrote...." original post" or OP as it is know.....that kinda ticked me off.

OP means something on a Msg. Board.....

Words mean something to me.....I think they are important.

With rapidly advancing technology....and new words coming into use, to describe new concepts........It is difficult enough as it is...for an older guy like me to keep up....with them.

My understanding of the words "original post" or OP....is that of the FIRST post of a thread....

 

[strativarius]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

When Maria wrote...." original post" or OP as it is know.....that kinda ticked me off.

OP means something on a Msg. Board.....

Words mean something to me.....I think they are important.

With rapidly advancing technology....and new words coming into use, to describe new concepts........It is difficult enough as it is...for an older guy like me to keep up....with them.

My understanding of the words "original post" or OP....is that of the FIRST post of a thread....

I've seen two definitions of 'OP'. One is, as you say, the original post, and I've also seen it defined as 'the original poster'. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice!

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gizmarelda held another yet mental séance with me while I slept peacefully.

She got to bouncing around this noble idea of going back in time & getting rid of Adolph Hitler.

Sounds good, hmm ?

I’d suppose that’d be to not have WWII & the horrific murder of so many Jewish people - along with lose of so many other men, women & children..

Well, first off, by some estimates Hitler is responsible for some 50 million people killed in WWII.

There are some other things that might have also happened.

How about there would have been no Israel created ?

Japan would not have 1950’s technology in factories we rebuilt while we were stuck in the US with our turn of the century manufacturing plants. Some wisely that wasn’t a smart move in the long haul.

WWII brought the US out of the depression & into prosperity.

Where would any space program be without the German scientists during WWII ?

Pretty much contribute successful jet aircraft to the WWII Germans.

What about the medical advances made by the Germans during WW II ?

The US spent heavily in WWII & after with Germany, Italy, Japan & our old friend Russia getting lotsa benefit of that.

Yes, the results on the world would immesnse without WW II.

If WWII could be eliminated, then why not WW I ?

Our own Bloody Civil War ?

Crap, how ‘bout our own War of Independence ?

Might as well consider what we did to the Native Americans, The Crusades, & throw in the Plague, too !

Go back & change history by erasing all war, all slavery, & all of man’s inhumanity to man ?

Where we be now ?

giz

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I have never understood....since you started posting on ESMB....(quite recently...a few months?) why you choose to post on this thread.

You have no "original post" here....

Maria this is not your thread....

This thread is the longest thread on ESMB....and has been around for years.....it was started in 2009

Perhaps if you did start a thread about a narrow topic.....it might work better for you...

But knowing the interwebs...and msg boards....perhaps not..

Almost every person in the world would see that the first post a person makes IS an original post, period. ( Hint : use your dictionary then DEMO both words )

Now one can go all scientological & claim there is a specialized " claimed" definition of some phrase or word that is the only "valid" definition to be allowed.

What a load of BS to say the first post a person makes is not their original post they have made on a "thread" or " msg board ".

I'll give you there are specialized words used in a variety of specializations, but that is not the only meaning a word can have.

But, hey, that hair splitting of definitions is the whole reason to be for some - LOL !

giz

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gizmarelda held another yet mental séance with me while I slept peacefully.

She got to bouncing around this noble idea of going back in time & getting rid of Adolph Hitler.

Sounds good, hmm ?

I’d suppose that’d be to not have WWII & the horrific murder of so many Jewish people - along with lose of so many other men, women & children..

Well, first off, by some estimates Hitler is responsible for some 50 million people killed in WWII.

50 million people killed, many suffering unimaginable suffering. What about their loved ones who survived and had to live the remainder of their lives haunted with the deaths of their loved ones. What about the creative power which most of those 50 million did not bring to fruition, what about the inventions they may have made, the music they might have composed, etc. It is easy to just toss off 50 million deaths as a raw stat but each of those 50 million was a human spirit with a story to tell. Put it this way, O.J. killed 2 people, his wife and Ron Goldman and look at all the attention devoted to those two deaths. Conceive of what 50 million murders must mean when compared to just those 2 murders.

There are some other things that might have also happened.

How about there would have been no Israel created ?

That is just speculation. Zionism was a powerful movement and had been pushing for a Jewish state in Palestine for over 100 years. I agree with you that Israel would not have been created in 1948, no doubt about that and it may not have been created in Palestine, even that is possible but eventually, someday it probably would have been created. Either way, I consider the fact that Israel was created to be a good thing. I like the Palestinians too and want a 2 state solution!

Japan would not have 1950’s technology in factories we rebuilt while we were stuck in the US with our turn of the century manufacturing plants. We were not stuck in the U.S. with turn of the century manufacturing plants. Where did you come up with that idea? Can you provide some references to show that. Before the US went into WWII, we had by far the most advanced automotive industry in the world. People such as Dr. Ferdinand Porche form Germany came to the USA to study our auto industry. That is why the VW bug looks very much like the 1935 DeSoto Airflow, built by Chrysler Corp. Dr. Porche visited the Chrysler/De Soto plant in 1935 to get some ideas for his People's Car.

WWII brought the US out of the depression & into prosperity.

I agree with you on this one. However, to trade 50 million human lives in exchange for bringing the US economy to life is not such a hot deal, certainly there could have been a better way to stimulate the economy than by having 50 million people be murdered, don't you think?

Where would any space program be without the German scientists during WWII ?

We would have been number 2, well behind the Germans but ahead of the USSR. No other country had one at that time that I know of.

Pretty much contribute successful jet aircraft to the WWII Germans.

The Germans were slightly ahead of the British on jet plans but both countries were testing them before WWII. As the war progressed, Germany gained a bit more ground on the British The USA program was in 3rd place.

What about the medical advances made by the Germans during WW II ?

I don't think many medical advances were made by the Germans during WWII. Before the war there may have been some but during the War all the emphasis in Germany was put on armaments, not medical advances and when the heavy bombings started and Germany began losing the war, the last thing on their mind was medical advances. I believe the USA may have been number one in medical advances before the war. A lot of Jewish Doctors, etc. were making breakthroughs in the USA along with many other non Jews, of course. Germany killed off all their Jews so their medical industry probably lost ground to us as a result.

The US spent heavily in WWII & after with Germany, Italy, Japan & our old friend Russia getting lotsa benefit of that.

I think the US got an awful lot from the money they spent on Germany and Japan plus we got good PR from helping Italy. Germany and Japan became two of our best allies, when before WWII they were our arch enemies. We got Einstein from the Germans, Werner von Braun and the German rocketry program came under the US umbrella, we and the USSR both benefited as far as our rocketry and jet plane programs were concerned.. France had a favorable opinion of us at that time as did all European countries. Those countries, battered by war plus Germany and Japan became some of our best and strongest trading partners. They needed our stuff since their factories were rubble.

Here is another thing which you are overlooking. By winning WWII, we went back to maintaining a fairly small military, thus much more of our money could be spent on the civilian economy. In the lead up to WII, more and more of our national resources were siphoned over from the private economy into our Military budget. After the war, the civilian US economy was booming as you suggest above. I lived through those boom days, being born in Dec, 1939. Let me tell you, they were wonderful times except for the specter of discrimination and Jim Crow laws. Those seem to me to be the major downside to the world of that day in the USA when compared to the world of today. Believe me, that was a great time to be a kid and grow up in the USA!!

Yes, the results on the world would be immense without WW II.

Yes they would be immense, and much, much more on the positive side than the negative side, as you are suggesting.

If WWII could be eliminated, then why not WW I ?

Our own Bloody Civil War ?

Crap, how ‘bout our own War of Independence ?

Might as well consider what we did to the Native Americans, The Crusades, & throw in the Plague, too !

Go back & change history by erasing all war, all slavery, & all of man’s inhumanity to man ?

Where we be now ?

giz

Let's consider just one war at a time. Since I mentioned only WWII and you were replying to my post saying that I would have killed Hitler if I had the chance so as to prevent WWII, why don't we deal with that issue first before taking up any other wars. I agree with you that it is a big deal to contemplate changing a major event in history. By doing so, one would be taking a huge step into the unknown. It is possible that things COULD go much worse than just letting history run its course with no interference. You and others say that you would not interfere by killing Hitler if you had the chance and I respect your opinions and would not criticize any of you for holding that belief. My logic, is that WWII with its 50 million deaths and the killing of 1/3 the world's Jews was about the worst possible thing which could have happened. I reasoned that almost any other outcome would be better than that. That is why I would exercise the option, if I had such an option, which of course is impossible.

Hell, I would agree with you that if I was Adam, I would be sure to have guarded the tree of knowledge so that Eve would not defy God's orders not to eat the fruit from that tree. Where would we be now, if me or anyone else was Adam and had done that? I guess we would all be in blissful heaven all these thousands of years.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Going along with what I say was never my point. Since I don't really have time today for all this I won't say more. Next time I have anything to post I will post it.

I had no idea I had beaten anything to death but please forgive me and and let me know the penance if so. (I don't believe in confession so no doubt I will deny all charges.)

I have a Jewish joke about confessionals which is appropriate here, so here goes:

A Jewish rabbi and a Catholic priest meet at an inter religious conference and make friends. The priest says that he needs to go to his Church and do confessionals for 2 hours and asks the rabbi if he would like to tag along and see how confessionals are conducted. The rabbi agrees to go.

At the Church, both men go into the confessional booth, the rabbi as only an observer:

A woman enters the booth and says, "Forgive me dear Father for I have sinned". The priest asks her, 'What did you do my child?' She answers that she cheated on her husband. He went out of town on business and the milk man showed up in the morning and they ended up having sex. The priest asks her, "How many times did you do it?" She answers 2 times. The priest tells her to go home, say 5 Hail Mary's and pray for the forgiveness of God.

As soon as this woman leaves, another woman enters the booth. She says, "Forgive me dear Father for I have sinned." The priest asks her, 'What did you do my child?' She gives the same type of answer as the first woman, The priest asks her how many times she did it and she also answers 2 times. The priest tells her to go home, say 5 Hail Mary's and ask for the forgiveness of God.

As the 2nd woman leaves, the Church secretary runs in and tells the Father that his mother fell and injured herself and that he is urgently needed at her home. The Father's relief is scheduled to arrive in only 15 minutes so he asks the rabbi to stay in the confessional booth until the relief Father arrives. The rabbi agrees to do this. No sooner had the Father left than another woman enters the booth and says "Forgive me Father for I have sinned." The Rabbi racks his brain for the proper response and with a Yiddish accent he answers. "Vat did you do." The woman says that she is married but had an affair yesterday with a man at her office. The Rabbi racks his brain and then asks the next question, "How many times?" The woman answers, "Only 1 time".

Since this woman said only 1 time and the two other women said 2 times, the rabbi doesn't know quite what to do. He thinks for a moment and comes up with a response. The rabbi says to the woman, "Go back to your office tomorrow and do it again. We're running a special this week, 'Five Hail Marys for the price of 2 sins"!!

Lakey

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

deleted.

 

[looker]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

double deleted.

It was really totally an epiphany and genius of thought until I re read it.

Srry

And Now we return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Godzilla meets the Bowery Boys.

 

[looker]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gizmarelda held another yet mental séance with me while I slept peacefully.

She got to bouncing around this noble idea of going back in time & getting rid of Adolph Hitler.

Sounds good, hmm ?

I’d suppose that’d be to not have WWII & the horrific murder of so many Jewish people - along with lose of so many other men, women & children..

Well, first off, by some estimates Hitler is responsible for some 50 million people killed in WWII.

There are some other things that might have also happened.

How about there would have been no Israel created ?

Japan would not have 1950’s technology in factories we rebuilt while we were stuck in the US with our turn of the century manufacturing plants. Some wisely that wasn’t a smart move in the long haul.

WWII brought the US out of the depression & into prosperity.

Where would any space program be without the German scientists during WWII ?

Pretty much contribute successful jet aircraft to the WWII Germans.

What about the medical advances made by the Germans during WW II ?

The US spent heavily in WWII & after with Germany, Italy, Japan & our old friend Russia getting lotsa benefit of that.

Yes, the results on the world would immesnse without WW II.

If WWII could be eliminated, then why not WW I ?

Our own Bloody Civil War ?

Crap, how ‘bout our own War of Independence ?

Might as well consider what we did to the Native Americans, The Crusades, & throw in the Plague, too !

Go back & change history by erasing all war, all slavery, & all of man’s inhumanity to man ?

Where we be now ?

giz

Interesting viewpoint.

It seems when a nation is faced with war, all stops are pulled out. Many scientific theories are quickly funded as a means of survival. In times of peace the necessity level for new discoveries is rather low and receive little funding.

The Germans with the Jet engine and swept winged planes. Rocketry with liquid propellants. early development of the atomic bomb in 1939.

Sulfa and Penicillin Heroin based Morphine pain killers, crash helmets safety belts, the Volkswagen, Radar, Long distance radio navigation. nuclear weapons, DDT to kill malaria infected mosquitos. High speed freeways.

Food preservation, freezing, canning , sterilization, plastics, synthetic rubber, precision surgery, surgical reconstruction, hybrid corn. High speed printing of newspapers. Precision manufacturing.

Electric guitar, electric sound amplification, recording: television video recording. Mass production Mass consumption. Pure food Act. miniaturization of mechanical and electronic parts.

Amazing for just a few.

Hard to fathom where we would be without wars.

"it is in our nature to want what our brother has" -- Marco Polo advisor to Genghis Kan

 

[Leland]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

It seems in many cases throughout history, that it is the invention of a new "force majeure" or "edge" that gives some nut case the idea that with this new advantage....that he/they can go marauding over the land and pretty much do what they want.

Iron weapons beat Copper ones.

The Wheeled Chariot over foot solders...

The Machine gun over the single rifle....

The Horse and rider, over the agricultural farming people.

And Hitler ......tested and perfected the "dive bombing" technique in the Spanish Civil War.....and made caches of fuel and water in the North African Desert, many years before WWII started. ( and as stated above....many high tech machines they developed )

But IMO....it is still some crazy fucker that decides to use these advantages.....once he figures he can get away with it......

(This includes the West....and their Colonial Period of World domination....)

But I totally agree.....going back in time and trying to alter or "fix" things.....that would be the craziest of all....

 

[Enthetan]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gizmarelda held another yet mental séance with me while I slept peacefully.

She got to bouncing around this noble idea of going back in time & getting rid of Adolph Hitler.

Sounds good, hmm ?

I’d suppose that’d be to not have WWII & the horrific murder of so many Jewish people - along with lose of so many other men, women & children..

Well, first off, by some estimates Hitler is responsible for some 50 million people killed in WWII.

There are some other things that might have also happened.

How about there would have been no Israel created ?

Japan would not have 1950’s technology in factories we rebuilt while we were stuck in the US with our turn of the century manufacturing plants. Some wisely that wasn’t a smart move in the long haul.

WWII brought the US out of the depression & into prosperity.

Where would any space program be without the German scientists during WWII ?

Pretty much contribute successful jet aircraft to the WWII Germans.

What about the medical advances made by the Germans during WW II ?

The US spent heavily in WWII & after with Germany, Italy, Japan & our old friend Russia getting lotsa benefit of that.

Yes, the results on the world would immesnse without WW II.

If WWII could be eliminated, then why not WW I ?

Our own Bloody Civil War ?

Crap, how ‘bout our own War of Independence ?

Might as well consider what we did to the Native Americans, The Crusades, & throw in the Plague, too !

Go back & change history by erasing all war, all slavery, & all of man’s inhumanity to man ?

Where we be now ?

giz

You forget the biggest thing: without Hitler, and the war dragging the US in, Europe would have been taken over by Stalin.

Judging by the number of killings performed while consolidating power in Russia and the Ukraine, Europe would likely have experienced mass killings anyway. The demographics of the killed would likely have been different, but the numbers would have likely been at least the same or higher.

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

You forget the biggest thing: without Hitler, and the war dragging the US in, Europe would have been taken over by Stalin.

Judging by the number of killings performed while consolidating power in Russia and the Ukraine, Europe would likely have experienced mass killings anyway. The demographics of the killed would likely have been different, but the numbers would have likely been at least the same or higher.

I was channelling Voltaire and he had a couple of comments. I am perplexed by his comments as I am not that interested in talking politics and wonder why he'd bother speaking to me. I'm in the middle of a manicure as we speak and since tied up at the moment I will merely pass the comments along without comment:

You forget one other biggest thing: without Hitler, and wars dragging the US in, what would people have to do? Do people really want to sit around and pray? And what about the convulsionaires? What would they have to do? What if humans need to sacrifice each other and anyway, ego demands it? What if death is the human religion? Judging by the number of killings performed and the number of widows hugging tombs this time of year, one might wonder what humans are most obsessed with as an activity, making love or making war. Or are these the same? Would the number of killings be different? Maybe the numbers would be the same or higher.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Interesting viewpoint.

It seems when a nation is faced with war, all stops are pulled out. Many scientific theories are quickly funded as a means of survival. In times of peace the necessity level for new discoveries is rather low and receive little funding.

The Germans with the Jet engine and swept winged planes. Rocketry with liquid propellants. early development of the atomic bomb in 1939.

Sulfa and Penicillin Heroin based Morphine pain killers, crash helmets safety belts, the Volkswagen, Radar, Long distance radio navigation. nuclear weapons, DDT to kill malaria infected mosquitos. High speed freeways.

Food preservation, freezing, canning , sterilization, plastics, synthetic rubber, precision surgery, surgical reconstruction, hybrid corn. High speed printing of newspapers. Precision manufacturing.

Electric guitar, electric sound amplification, recording: television video recording. Mass production Mass consumption. Pure food Act. miniaturization of mechanical and electronic parts.

Amazing for just a few.

Hard to fathom where we would be without wars.

"it is in our nature to want what our brother has" -- Marco Polo advisor to Genghis Kan

Very good post! In particular, I like your first paragraph a lot, you make excellent points!! One thing, however, on Germany's early development of the atomic bomb in 1939, I'm not sure what you mean by that. I believe they were doing experiments with heavy water in Norway as early as 1939 but the allies sabotaged that effort and Germany dropped atomic research at that time. As I understand it, Germany had enough money to develop rocketry OR an atomic bomb but not for both. Hitler opted for atomic development and gave up the atomic bomb research. Part of Hitler's decision to drop atomic bomb research was that Einstein, Minkowski and other pioneers of relativity theory were Jewish. As a result, Hitler was reluctant to pour funds into atomic research which he called "Jewish" science.

On jet plane development, both Germany and England had programs underway in 1939. Pre WWII and early WWII, Hitler was anticipating Germany always being on the offense, conquering other countries and for conquest, he needed bombers not fighter planes. Bombers were large planes which could carry heavy bomb loads and speed was not a major factor. The major factors in bombers were range, payload capacity, and accuracy of bombsites. Fighter planes were for escorting bombers, which required only average speed and for shooting down enemy fighters which required high speeds. Hitler never expected to be on defense so he focused on bombers and he put Germany's jet plane program on hold for about 2 years. When Germany started losing the war, and the allies were bombing Germany daily, only then was the jet program revived. The first jets did not appear until the autumn of 1944 and by then, it was too late for them to turn the tide for Germany in the air war. Rockets and jet plans were not too little too late, they were just too late. Had a large German jet fighter fleet been available in 1942 instead of 1944, Germany may have been able to knock out the allied air offensive against German cities and factories.

I like your comment about Germany, "Amazing for a few", referring to Germany's technical achievements which you list above. Yes, it is incredible! They were also leaders in submarine development and warfare which you did not mention. They've fought 3 wars in their national history which only dates from 1871. They won the first war, the Franco Prussian War, where they defeated France and establish Bismark's first Reich. They lost WWI, with nary one German house being bombed and then in WWII in spite of achieving all the things you list above, their country was virtually totally destroyed, with about 11 million Germans out of a population of 80 milion being killed. In fact their propensity to wage war almost cost them their very existence as a nation. Had the USSR administered all of post war Germany, the whole country would have become a Soviet satellite as East Germany once was.

Though WWII led to tremendous inventions by the Germans, it almost destroyed their national identity, an excellent demonstration of why war does not lead to better economies. better conditions and a better world.
Lakey

 

[Gizmo]

Ada Lovelace has what claim to fame ?

< lots lopped off >
..... Thinking outside the box, way outside the box, may be a good descriptive term for genius.
Lakey

Interesting, but, it would seem one needs to have a very firm - if not deep - grasp what is inside the box before venturing outside the box.

I sometimes think poor old LRH was one who tried to create outside the box after having an inadequate grasp of what was inside the box and thus failed miserably in his attempt.

Seems Einstein was genius who thought outside the box by starting to examine & question what was in side the box.

Same for Bill Gates who many rate a genius for his ability to pull data together in a way it could ne used whereas Steve Jobs - yet another genius somehow could see where to take products that the buyers would follow en mass.

Da Vinci left so much incomplete & unfinished but yet so much still so far beyond what most anyone of his time could see.

There seems to many variations of what qualifies as genius.

Any way, back to the guessing game :

Ada Lovelace has what claim to fame ?

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I was channelling Voltaire and he had a couple of comments. I am perplexed by his comments as I am not that interested in talking politics and wonder why he'd bother speaking to me. I'm in the middle of a manicure as we speak and since tied up at the moment I will merely pass the comments along without comment:

You forget one other biggest thing: without Hitler, and wars dragging the US in, what would people have to do? Do people really want to sit around and pray? And what about the convulsionaires? What would they have to do? What if humans need to sacrifice each other and anyway, ego demands it? What if death is the human religion? Judging by the number of killings performed and the number of widows hugging tombs this time of year, one might wonder what humans are most obsessed with as an activity, making love or making war. Or are these the same? Would the number of killings be different? Maybe the numbers would be the same or higher.

Maybe kill rates work the way that taxes work. In the case of national governments taxing their citizens, it is clear that if the populace has a tax rate of zero, no money will go to the governments and the government will be unable to pay for anything. At the other extreme, with a tax rate of 100%, virtually the same thing happens. In this case, almost nobody would work because they don't get to keep any of their earnings so the government also ends up collecting no tax. Mathematicians have designed a curve to illustrate at what level the tax rate produces the most income for the government. I don't remember the optimum number but I believe that it is between 20% and 30%

Maybe there is some similar mathematical formula or equation which plots the love rate against the killing rate. Perhaps killing is essential for arriving at an optimally happy and prosperous society.

THE PRECEDENT IS CERTAINLY HERE WHEN YOU LOOK AT THIS PLANET IN PARTICULAR AND OUR UNIVERSE IN GENERAL.

There is no such thing as immortality on this planet or in this universe. Everything, living and inert goes through the same cycle of birth, growth, decay and death. Certainly, if that concept applies world wide and universe wide, then there would be an optimum death rate for a society or a planet. The same thing would have to apply to nations as well. Thus there is solid ground established for optimum death rates world wide.

Consequently, if the birth rate is rising, then the death rate should also be rising to keep the ratio near optimum. If the birth rate is rising and the death rate isn't, then war might well be the proper thing to pursue.

I will say this. Rather than go to war to preserve the optimum ratio between births and deaths, wouldn't it be better for society to adjust the birth and death rates by some means other than war. Birth rates could be restricted by government edict, restricting how many children each family could have while death rates, now on a declining trend could be tinkered with by cutting back expenditures promoting life extending practices and techniques.

SUMMARY: There is probably an optimum rate between humans loving and humans killing other humans. Society should try and figure out what this rate is and then keep citizens loving and killing in the appropriate ratio. If the ratio, goes out, either on the high side or the low side, society can tinker with various laws regarding birth and various funding of programs which extend life. If no laws or tinkering with parameter or invoking birth control rules is able to return an out of whack ratio back to an optimum ration, only then war might be used as a productive means to bring the ration back towards the optimum balance.
Lakey

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Perhaps killing is essential for arriving at an optimally happy and prosperous society.
Lakey

Voltaire is always interested in those odd details, such as the fact that when stats are up or even when they threaten to be up people believe they are optimally happy and prosperous....there is something about flowing wine that suspends disbelief and leads to an exuberant confidence. He thanks you for reminding him of this exuberance. The nice thing about wine is that for centuries it allowed one to avoid the ugly consequences of drinking water straight and getting quite sick as a consequence.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: Ada Lovelace has what claim to fame ?

Interesting, but, it would seem one needs to have a very firm - if not deep - grasp what is inside the box before venturing outside the box.

I sometimes think poor old LRH was one who tried to create outside the box after having an inadequate grasp of what was inside the box and thus failed miserably in his attempt.

Seems Einstein was genius who thought outside the box by starting to examine & question what was in side the box.

Same for Bill Gates who many rate a genius for his ability to pull data together in a way it could ne used whereas Steve Jobs - yet another genius somehow could see where to take products that the buyers would follow en mass.

Da Vinci left so much incomplete & unfinished but yet so much still so far beyond what most anyone of his time could see.

There seems to many variations of what qualifies as genius.

Any way, back to the guessing game :

Ada Lovelace has what claim to fame ?

I think you make an excellent point here.

This subject matter reminds me of a quote I heard made by the Russian classical music composer, Sergei Prokofiev who did much of his composing in the first half of the 20th century. A musical friend of Prokofiev came to his house and found Prokofiev studying and practicing a Beethoven Sonata, written over a hundred years earlier. The friend asked Prokofiev why he was studying and practicing such old music. Prokofiev answered by saying something, and I paraphrase, "I plan on breaking all the rules which the older composers established for for classical music but before I do that, I want to first master totally, those rules of theirs which I plan on breaking". In other words, he planned on mastering the works of those composers who preceded him and only after doing that, he then planned to develop his own unique style. That happened when I was about 20 and those words made a big impression on me.

To your credit, it seems to me as if you are saying something very similar to what Sergei Prokofiev said at the beginning of his long and successful music career.
Lakey

 

[Maria Cuervo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973



Is there any significance/connection between the name Apollo of the ship and the Apollo Space program? I love the design of the letter A in the central logo of this.