ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

[acertainratio]

I'm for letting people say what they want to say.

 

[Pixie]

Okay, Sweetie. Now that we've seen your completely vulnerable side, will you please get back on with your quest to completely dominate DullOldFart?
You are stronger then you give yourself credit for. We've all had our toes stepped on from time to time here. (And most of us have stepped on at least one person's toes) Truth is, we are here for ourselves and each other. It feels good.

I am sure Goodtwin that this is in no way the first time, or the second, or the third.. that I have shown my 'vulnerable side'. I have never felt I have had anything to hide personality wise here on this forum which is one of the reasons I love it so much, it may however appear sometimes that I am indeed much stronger than I am, but this is not the case and I am not ashamed to admit it. I write as I speak and feel, I don't read back, or edit, because then this type of writing to me is not the truth straight from the heart. That said, DOF enjoys a little domination I feel quite sure and I am only too willing to oblige.

 

[Free to shine]

I would actually like to see more Church of Scientologists on ESMB, blatantly recruiting for the Church.

I think that would be awesome.

Yeah...well....I wonder whose post count would skyrocket?

 

[Alanzo]

This is very well written Escalus, but you ought not allow them to keep you from the board. I for one miss your contributions very much. I agree with everything you have written here and I am also very glad I am not the only one who thinks this very same thing. Thank you.. and please come back. ..

I agree.

We need the educated, seasoned and experienced "Anonymous" viewpoint that Escalus delivers.

To think that he was run away by the freezoners makes me wonder if he is some kind of a wuss or something.

 

[Alanzo]

Yeah...well....I wonder whose post count would skyrocket?

You betcha, baby!!

That would be a blast!

 

[Pixie]

Thanks Pixie. The one exception I'd make to my tolerance of free speech is someone with a covert agenda; for example, someone posting here from the CofS aiming to disrupt the board by lying, for example.

Yes of course Cat's Squirrel, and this is totally understandable! It is indeed those 'hidden agendas' that can easily be overlooked particularly when one has not woken up fully or lurking or new to the board, so yes I agree with you there very much, however it's a good education to once again tap into those dormant instincts we had before they were stifled by the cult. that way, we can then learn to 'feel' who is genuine and indeed who is not.

 

[Pixie]

Civilized people prefer civility with their free speech, but if you forbid civil speech on a particular aspect of the general subject, where do you draw the line? Who decides what is kosher and what isn't?

The straight answer is that it's Emma's board and she can do as she wishes. So far, I applaud her decisions. But the underlying question remains of where to draw the line--on what basis does one decide to allow certain topics but not others, when there is no general outcry involved? Some things (spam etc.) are a no-brainer to get rid of, but some things aren't.

My view is that if you don't like the program change the channel. There are some posters I ignore, some threads I gloss over. Other people post messages in support of posts and posters I dislike. That's the thing about free speech--it is not all going to be to your taste. Discussion and debate allow one to see sides of topics one would not otherwise have considered. If one is willing to, anyway. If some FZ subject is being discussed, I'll add my viewpoint to others', and hopefully people will end up with a more rounded view of whatever topic is being dissected. When I started on this board 15 months ago I thought of myself as a freezoner. Now I don't, mainly based on what I have learned from ESMB.

I like the mix here. It doesn't exist in any other place online that I am aware of. We're consenting adults, or should be. Some people here are fresh from the CofS, still hurting, in need of healing. Some aren't. If you make this board totally "safe" for the more sensitive ones, you might blow off some old toughies by taking out too many of the things they find appealing.

Paul

How very diplomatically written Dull Old Fart, or should I be calling you Master of the Universe now with your new Avatar..mm.. it's going to be difficult to spank a whole planet DOF.. you're making it very difficult for me now.. But yes, very well said, a very mature viewpoint indeed.

 

[Free to shine]

One factor that makes things a bit messy, sometimes, is that some Scientology Freezoners (when amongst EX-Scientologists) apply Scientology Public Relations tech, Faux "ARC"-manipulation tech, and good cop/bad cop (Mutt and Jeff) tech.

There's probably no way to avoid it, however; and so, perhaps, the best advice is a modified version of: "Know the (Scientology) Tech and it will protect you," which becomes, "Know the Scientology tech (including the sneaky and dark side), and you can protect yourself from it."

I think the existence of two categories: "Freezone&Ron's Orgs" for Scientology(Xenu/LRH) Freezoners, and "Independent Field" for those who have moved beyond Scientology, is useful, and a scanning of these two ESMB categories is likely to answer many of the questions a person might have.

Thankyou for your patience posting links Veda, you have cleared up a lot for me.

If there is one thing I do have a problem with it's the constant refrain that the "church" is different to the tech and policy and is to blame for "what went wrong". I guess the only answer for those who believe it is to keep reading.

 

[Free to shine]

I agree.

We need the educated, seasoned and experienced "Anonymous" viewpoint that Escalus delivers.

To think that he was run away by the freezoners makes me wonder if he is some kind of a wuss or something.

Oh you are a naughty Alanzo issuing such a challenge. Stand by....

 

[Pixie]

I agree.

We need the educated, seasoned and experienced "Anonymous" viewpoint that Escalus delivers.

To think that he was run away by the freezoners makes me wonder if he is some kind of a wuss or something.

Indeed, I was also under the impression he was made of much stronger stuff. Come on Escalus.. get your seasoned and experienced finger out!

 

[beyond_horizons]

One factor that makes things a bit messy, sometimes, is that some Scientology Freezoners (when amongst EX-Scientologists) apply Scientology Public Relations tech, Faux "ARC"-manipulation tech, and good cop/bad cop (Mutt and Jeff) tech.

There's probably no way to avoid it, however; and so, perhaps, the best advice is a modified version of: "Know the (Scientology) Tech and it will protect you," which becomes, "Know the Scientology tech (including the sneaky and dark side), and you can protect yourself from it."

I think the existence of two categories: "Freezone&Ron's Orgs" for Scientology(Xenu/LRH) Freezoners, and "Independent Field" for those who have moved beyond Scientology, is useful, and a scanning of these two ESMB categories is likely to answer many of the questions a person might have.

 

[Axiom142]

Actually this clarifies something for me. I care very deeply about the pain & confusion an ex experiences when leaving Scientology. This is the most important thing to me - The care of the person who has left or is in the process of leaving.

Anything else is secondary.

Emma, thank you for caring. This is one of the things that attracted me here. Also, the chance to talk about what I’ve been through and discuss things with people who have shared experiences. This is very important to me. Yes, I could talk with friends and colleagues, but unless you were ‘in’, there is no way you can understand. Imagine trying to explain to someone who knows next to nothing about Scientology why you signed a billion year contract and were prepared to give up all material rewards for the rest of your life?

I’ve always thought of ESMB as a relatively safe haven for those people who have been through the meat-grinder of Scientology and need someone to talk to. I know that I felt very isolated and confused when I was leaving. I’m sure many people stay in just because they can’t face leaving and as a result are very unhappy.

Personally, I enjoy a good discussion. Don’t mind if it gets heated, shows that people are passionate about what they are discussing.

But, I draw the line when it gets personal and people get nasty. Not for myself - I have got a very thick skin and I doubt that anyone here could say anything that would upset me very much (just don’t dis my football team! ). But, when it gets nasty, the decent people leave and the bullies win.

So, I’m not bothered if Freezoners or even ‘Churchies’ post here. In fact, I welcome it as I’d like the chance to swap viewpoints. And, I’d like to think that I’d be prepared to admit I was wrong and change my viewpoint. And ultimately, if someone says something you don’t like, just ignore them.

I don’t think this place should just be for critics of the CoS. It would be nice to think that those who are still ‘in’ could come here for an alternative viewpoint and additional information. But, most definitely, it should not be a recruiting ground for anything or anyone.

Recruiting and bullying should be strongly ‘discouraged’ in my view.

Axiom142

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Love those smilies

Is a consensus emerging here, i.e. that it's okay for anyone to post here as long as they're posting in good faith but people with a covert agenda (Freezone, CofS etc.) are not welcome?

 

[Dulloldfart]

I don’t think this place should just be for critics of the CoS. It would be nice to think that those who are still ‘in’ could come here for an alternative viewpoint and additional information. But, most definitely, it should not be a recruiting ground for anything or anyone.

So how does one accomplish that, Ax, making ESMB a non-recruiting ground while allowing alternative viewpoints?

What is "recruitment" on a message board but saying "I like BLIXO because blah blah blah; you might like it too."?

Paul

 

[Free to shine]

So how does one accomplish that, Ax, making ESMB a non-recruiting ground while allowing alternative viewpoints?

What is "recruitment" on a message board but saying "I like BLIXO because blah blah blah; you might like it too."?

Paul

I think we are talking blatant recruitment here, rather than points of view. Like saying "welcome to the Freezone" in a post on ESMB, no matter how it was intended.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Recently I have had reason to question the easy going stance on ESMB to the Freezone.

I have read certain threads that concern me, have received a number of PMs from concerned members and visited a FZ forum and recieved an interesting "welcome".

Originally I decided that FZers were welcome here because fundamentally they are Ex Scientologists. Now I have some reasons to be concerned about this apparent "affiliation" with the FZ and a perception that ESMB is a recruiting ground for and/or a free advertising venue to a larger audience for the FZ.

I haven't made any decision regarding this as yet and I'm looking for some feedback. Please don't get hysterical about this. I'm really after some thought out responses.

I want to know what you all think.

I think that it might be best looked at as individuals doing things rather than thinking it's everyone because I don't think it is everyone.

Another thing to consider might be - and I'm not saying you should or you shouldn't because I honestly don't know- but maybe if the affiliation issue is a concern (which I can totally understand) as well as the free advertising thing- then you might end up changing some of the rules of the board. It's your board.

I think that it's good to have a mix of people discussing things and that nobody should be turned away on basis of stance re Scn, but I also think that these two things you name are really legitimate concerns or possibly are, at any rate.

I'd like to see the person who posts what he/she thinks who happens to have viewpoint X distinguished from the person who may have an ulterior motive or seeks an affilation that you don't want and didn't intend.

 

[Alanzo]

...

 

[Free to shine]

I'd like to see the person who posts what he/she thinks who happens to have viewpoint X distinguished from the person who may have an ulterior motive or seeks an affilation that you don't want and didn't intend.

Well that would make things easier but I can't see a way to do that. What would you suggest?

 

[Voltaire's Child]

I think we are talking blatant recruitment here, rather than points of view. Like saying "welcome to the Freezone" in a post on ESMB, no matter how it was intended.

Emma's been most welcoming and decent toward, well, everybody. She did create the FZ section. For a while there was a locked one that only members could access. If she retrenches- and I'm by NO means saying she should or should not-I would guess that one of the things she may end up eliminating or redesigning would be the FZ/Independent sections.

Thing is, if there's an FZ section, I don't think it's odd for someone to advertise there-blatantly or otherwise. However, I in no way am against or critical of any forum owner who does not wish to have advertising on their forum or on any site they run.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

So how does one accomplish that, Ax, making ESMB a non-recruiting ground while allowing alternative viewpoints?

What is "recruitment" on a message board but saying "I like BLIXO because blah blah blah; you might like it too."?

Paul

Not just that, pm'ing people to try and convert them to your particular therapy / teaching etc.