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  • [video=youtube;i2r2Nd6OJT4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2r2Nd6OJT4[/video]

  • Seriously guys don't end your life being a worthless coward

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    DodoTheLaser • 2 minutes agoI wish Bill Franks and David Mayo were posting here. I have couple questions. C'mon guys, you both posted on ESMB in the past. It would be really cool.
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We know you are both watching this forum. Don't be an Hubbard about it.
 
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I must say we have a Bill on board now. In any case I would think myself unfair. But with Scientology I am bitter hard.
 
I really enjoyed this interview. Maybe Bill thought he was one of the good guys. Judging from how badly he was treated it must be true.

And the mission holders are seen as good guys too, by some.
But at least the one I knew was an abusive asshole who loved money and status.
He had it all, driving staff on rice alone, that's right the beans were a treat when we got them.
Two hours sleep a night, (and that was only when you passed out cold and were not caught in that time.)
Building a dozen "auditing rooms" and locking staff in from the outside to do O/W write ups for weeks on end.
Face ripping, encouraging staff to bait and badger, resulting in one staff having his pants and underwear removed by the mob, and ducking heads in toilets in place of over boarding.

There are no white hats in $cientology.
The evil is built into $cientology itself.
 
Victoria said:
But at least the one I knew was an abusive asshole who loved money and status.
He had it all, driving staff on rice alone, that's right the beans were a treat when we got them.
Two hours sleep a night, (and that was only when you passed out cold and were not caught in that time.)
Building a dozen "auditing rooms" and locking staff in from the outside to do O/W write ups for weeks on end.
Face ripping, encouraging staff to bait and badger, resulting in one staff having his pants and underwear removed by the mob, and ducking heads in toilets in place of over.
Click to expand...

Who are you talking about?
 
Victoria said:
I really enjoyed this interview. Maybe Bill thought he was one of the good guys. Judging from how badly he was treated it must be true.

And the mission holders are seen as good guys too, by some.
But at least the one I knew was an abusive asshole who loved money and status.
He had it all, driving staff on rice alone, that's right the beans were a treat when we got them.
Two hours sleep a night, (and that was only when you passed out cold and were not caught in that time.)
Building a dozen "auditing rooms" and locking staff in from the outside to do O/W write ups for weeks on end.
Face ripping, encouraging staff to bait and badger, resulting in one staff having his pants and underwear removed by the mob, and ducking heads in toilets in place of over boarding.

There are no white hats in $cientology.
The evil is built into $cientology itself.
Click to expand...

There were lots of good people in Scientology. They were the ones who actually got things done.

To be an exec, though, you had to be able to be a sociopath, or you would be taken off for being too "worker oriented" (which is a major sin as a Scn exec -- caring about the people under you and wanting them to have enough sleep and food)
 
[video]https://youtu.be/KDGy2Q9qR70[/video]

Excellent interview by Jeff... really worth the 1 1/4 hr of listening. Lots of detailed goodies here and more upcoming in another interview as a result.

Bill's 40+ year old and onward experience of the Scientology 'ethics and justice' treatment he and other staff endured, and the pain one sufferers alone in living it, is personally drawn here by the pain it brings Bill today to discuss - clearly, it was not easy for him to talk about these things.

This audio interview takes us further down into the history of the RPF and Sea Org and often simplicity of Hubbard's madness in what he created. :thumbsup:
 
WildKat said:
Who are you talking about?
Click to expand...

Sort of venting really.
I got caught up in the mission holder/Bill Franks fiasco.
Quite unwittingly.
Its just that Bill comes across as a great guy who tried to reform the place for people who just wanted to keep doing $cientology.
I got treatment from IJC and INT because I had recently been kicked out from almost a year on staff at a mission, and was petitioning IJC to tell my story and get undeclared.
So, they thought I had some inside scoop on a mission they were in a battle with.

Meantime, I am CLUELESS as usual, and think WOW, int. are really the good guys and maybe I am not a hopeless lost cause suppressive DB on this planet for all eternity ECT.

I guess my point was, Bill thought he was one of the good guys, but I don't think any of us were whilst we were affiliated with a purely evil organization.
 
Victoria, Bill Franks has had some years to reflect and recover, as we all have. He's been out a long time.

He was also hard on himself.

Not everyone in Scn was good-hearted. Bill wasn't a bad guy. He was alright. I'm sure there is plenty he is ashamed of or he wished he had never been part of. We all heal and grow past that eventually, though, and learn to forgive ourselves.

We all pretty much go through the horror/guilt of the rotten cult of Scientology that we had taken part to create and helped along with our time and money. We get over it, move on, make better lives for ourselves and become grateful for another chance.

Some of us were worse than others. Some more loyal, some less, some more independent. Some had more power, others didn't. We all had flaws and all of us were exploited for our weaknesses and used up to be spit out eventually when all our use was dry.

It's good to be out. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad we all have this second chance. :hug:
 
JustSheila said:
Victoria, Bill Franks has had some years to reflect and recover, as we all have. He's been out a long time.

He was also hard on himself.

Not everyone in Scn was good-hearted. Bill wasn't a bad guy. He was alright. I'm sure there is plenty he is ashamed of or he wished he had never been part of. We all heal and grow past that eventually, though, and learn to forgive ourselves.

We all pretty much go through the horror/guilt of the rotten cult of Scientology that we had taken part to create and helped along with our time and money. We get over it, move on, make better lives for ourselves and become grateful for another chance.

Some of us were worse than others. Some more loyal, some less, some more independent. Some had more power, others didn't. We all had flaws and all of us were exploited for our weaknesses and used up to be spit out eventually when all our use was dry.

It's good to be out. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad we all have this second chance. :hug:
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I never met Bill Franks and it's hard to judge anyone you never met, but I remember reading something he had written in 1981 or thereabouts that really impressed me. I always had a favorable view of him after that. Knowing he was sacked by Miscabbage or Hubs tends to validate that. I don't doubt others had a negative experience of him though.

Anyway, ditto to what Just Shiela said here.
 
JustSheila said:
Victoria, Bill Franks has had some years to reflect and recover, as we all have. He's been out a long time.

He was also hard on himself.

Not everyone in Scn was good-hearted. Bill wasn't a bad guy. He was alright. I'm sure there is plenty he is ashamed of or he wished he had never been part of. We all heal and grow past that eventually, though, and learn to forgive ourselves.

We all pretty much go through the horror/guilt of the rotten cult of Scientology that we had taken part to create and helped along with our time and money. We get over it, move on, make better lives for ourselves and become grateful for another chance.

Some of us were worse than others. Some more loyal, some less, some more independent. Some had more power, others didn't. We all had flaws and all of us were exploited for our weaknesses and used up to be spit out eventually when all our use was dry.

It's good to be out. I'm glad you're here. I'm glad we all have this second chance. :hug:
Click to expand...

The higher one goes up the org board the greater the pressure is to push LRH's brutality. We focus on the ugliness but half of the story is how people retained their humanity in spite of it all. The auditor who doesn't write down something that is too embarrassing or incriminating, the Ethics Officer that doesn't act on a Knowledge Report. The examples are many, often unseen even to those who benefit. Executives could be both, ruthless Product Officer and a buffer absorbing the insanity coming down lines.

I remember the golden rod on Bill. Maybe they think that in itself dispels the questions people have about how someone can be elevated so high with such praise only to be characterized later as the source of so many problems but it has a cumulative corrosive effect. Seeds of doubt linger, unspoken; if that can happen to Bill it can happen to anyone, this system of justice is arbitrary.

But Bill was RPFed, what, 3 times? Seriously, how many evil intentions can someone have going back billions and trillions of years? Every time a person is condemned to the RPF there is also a time when somebody releases them. LRH was always doing this whipsaw on us. Ring the bell: Feed the dog - Ring the bell: Beat the dog

Its the Triple Flows: Abuse yourself, help yourself, abuse others, help others, others abuse others, others help others. I'm no psychology expert but if I were looking for a good way to describe Stockholming - this would be it. So here we all are in LRH's personal hell construct alternating between abuser and savior. You have to ask if LRH was so devious that he actually only tolerated a little humanity just to keep the head fuck going?
 
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WildKat said:
I never met Bill Franks and it's hard to judge anyone you never met, but I remember reading something he had written in 1981 or thereabouts that really impressed me. I always had a favorable view of him after that. Knowing he was sacked by Miscabbage or Hubs tends to validate that. I don't doubt others had a negative experience of him though.

Anyway, ditto to what Just Shiela said here.
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The thing people need to remember - sure we did fucked up stuff while on lines - but we thought we were doing it for a higher cause. At the time we did the best we could. Now we see we were mistaken. Take Hi Levy - he reged millions for the church, and when he left - he was part of the SP Times truth rundown. That is sticking your neck out. Perhaps he would have done more had he lived longer. But he did something to "make up the damage" and after seeing that, I can never fault him, no matter the thousands he reged me for.

Mimsey
 
The higher OT level techniques where bought from another LA hypnotist who thought it was funny Hubbard used his hypnotique techniques for the higher OT levels.

Some prominent EX posted that somewhere, pure from recollection I have no dox on hand right now.

TheOriginalBigBlue said:
The higher one goes up the org board the greater the pressure is to push LRH's brutality. We focus on the ugliness but half of the story is how people retained their humanity in spite of it all. The auditor who doesn't write down something that is too embarrassing or incriminating, the Ethics Officer that doesn't act on a Knowledge Report. The examples are many, often unseen even to those who benefit. Executives could be both, ruthless Product Officer and a buffer absorbing the insanity coming down lines.

I remember the golden rod on Bill. Maybe they think that in itself dispels the questions people have about how someone can be elevated so high with such praise only to be characterized later as the source of so many problems but it has a cumulative corrosive effect. Seeds of doubt linger, unspoken; if that can happen to Bill it can happen to anyone, this system of justice is arbitrary.

But Bill was RPFed, what, 3 times? Seriously, how many evil intentions can someone have going back billions and trillions of years? Every time a person is condemned to the RPF there is also a time when somebody releases them. LRH was always doing this whipsaw on us. Ring the bell: Feed the dog - Ring the bell: Beat the dog

Its the Triple Flows: Abuse yourself, help yourself, abuse others, help other, others abuse others, others help others. I'm no psychology expert but if I were looking for a good way to describe Stockholming - this would be it. So here we all are in LRH's personal hell construct alternating between abuser and savior. You have to ask if LRH was so devious that he actually only tolerated a little humanity just to keep the head fuck going?
Click to expand...
 
I mainly remember Bill Franks as being predictable. He tried to follow policy and believed it would make things better. Whenever he wrote things, it had a lot of detail - one needn't guess why he wrote something or what he was doing. While he was ED INT, people always got Comm Evs or whatever other justice actions if they were RPFed or Declared. That wasn't always the case before he was ED INT, and I can think of some examples. So sometimes harsh actions were reversed, even though generally, Comm Evs assume you're guilty at the outset so normally don't go well.

He generally didn't bypass C/Os of orgs and just take over, like the CMO or others. He liked structure. He really tried to make the Int Structure work, and I remember lots of advices issued about what each of the Int Strata people did. He was pretty militant in the way he went about things, but predictable. I don't recall ever hearing any stories of him beating staff, though I heard he could swear like a sailor if he got angry enough. Nobody went around hitting each other back then - it just wasn't done. That started with DM. There was a lot of swearing in the SO then, though. It's even worse now from what I hear.
 
I don't post much on ESMB anymore...Pretty much have had my say. I've been reading and contemplating this Thread and am compelled to ad my 2 Cents.

Thank you for your Posts, Sheila...Much appreciated. :thumbsup:

IMHO, Bill Franks and David Mayo have more--much more--than "reported in". I'm not gonna go into the litany of all that they have said and done for all of Us that is part of the permanent record. I've Posted about this in detail before on a number of occasions on this Board and I'm not gonna go find all those Posts and Link to them now. :no:

Long and short...I personally knew and interacted with Bill and David...I first met Bill in the latter '60's and David in the early '7o's, and our paths crossed and I interacted with both of them--not "socially" but "officially"--over a number of years.

IMHO, neither Bill or David are "sociopaths", both were "good guys" and--for want of a better phrase--part of what I found good about Scn and Scns and were downright good, decent and well intended Folks that tried to do the right thing within the heady, in retrospect bizarre and "sign of the times" circumstances of that Era. They--like many of Us back then--really tried hard and sincerely to rectify, reconcile and make something worthwhile out of Scn, the Cof$ and the "Tech". Yes we were misguided, foolish and did stuff that will weigh heavy on our hearts until last breath. But, all weren't "bad" and many of Us--in particular Folks Like David and Bill--stuck their necks out to rectify, reconcile and make something worthwhile out of Scn, the Cof$ and the "Tech" and--having failed that--to speak our mind, open our Kimono's and shed light on the early days of "Oz" and the "Wizard" behind the curtain.

I don't wish to offend and I'm looking not for a "firefight" but, IMHO--unless someone has at least read, viewed and listened to everything out there and available that David and Bill have had to say about El Ron, Scn and the "Tech" or, was there when it was all going down--"calling them out" is self-serving, showboating and grandstanding...To Wit, Rude. :coolwink:

Peace. :yes:

Face:)
 
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afaceinthecrowd said:
I don't post much on ESMB anymore...Pretty much have had my say. I've been reading and contemplating this Thread and am compelled to ad my 2 Cents.

Thank you for your Posts, Sheila...Much appreciated. :thumbsup:

IMHO, Bill Franks and David Mayo have more--much more--than "reported in". I'm not gonna go into the litany of all that they have said and done for all of Us that is part of the permanent record. I've Posted about this in detail before on a number of occasions on this Board and I'm not gonna go find all those Posts and Link to them now. :no:

Long and short...I personally knew and interacted with Bill and David...I first met Bill in the latter '60's and David in the early '7o's, and our paths crossed and I interacted with both of them--not "socially" but "officially"--over a number of years.

IMHO, neither Bill or David are "sociopaths", both were "good guys" and--for want of a better phrase--part of what I found good about Scn and Scns and were downright good, decent and well intended Folks that tried to do the right thing within the heady, in retrospect bizarre and "sign of the times" circumstances of that Era. They--like many of Us back then--really tried hard and sincerely to rectify, reconcile and make something worthwhile out of Scn, the Cof$ and the "Tech". Yes we were misguided, foolish and did stuff that will weigh heavy on our hearts until last breath. But, all weren't "bad" and many of Us--in particular Folks Like David and Bill--stuck their necks out to rectify, reconcile and make something worthwhile out of Scn, the Cof$ and the "Tech" and--having failed that--to speak our mind, open our Kimono's and shed light on the early days of "Oz" and the "Wizard" behind the curtain.

I don't wish to offend and I'm looking not for a "firefight" but, IMHO--unless someone has at least read, viewed and listened to everything out there and available that David and Bill have had to say about El Ron, Scn and the "Tech" or, was there when it was all going down--"calling them out" is self-serving, showboating and grandstanding...To Wit, Rude. :coolwink:

Peace. :yes:

Face:)
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Yes! David is a good person, and I'm sure would love to say much more than he has. Same with Bent ... and surely many others I know.
 
WildKat said:
I never met Bill Franks and it's hard to judge anyone you never met, but I remember reading something he had written in 1981 or thereabouts that really impressed me. I always had a favorable view of him after that. Knowing he was sacked by Miscabbage or Hubs tends to validate that. I don't doubt others had a negative experience of him though.

Anyway, ditto to what Just Shiela said here.
Click to expand...

I hope my post wasn't misleading. I never met or had any interaction directly with Bill Franks.
I'm tempted to think things would have been slightly less rotten if I had.
 
Victoria said:
Sort of venting really.
I got caught up in the mission holder/Bill Franks fiasco.
Quite unwittingly.
Its just that Bill comes across as a great guy who tried to reform the place for people who just wanted to keep doing $cientology.
I got treatment from IJC and INT because I had recently been kicked out from almost a year on staff at a mission, and was petitioning IJC to tell my story and get undeclared.
So, they thought I had some inside scoop on a mission they were in a battle with.
Click to expand...

Was that when Bill Franks was C/Sing for a NY mission after being declared?
 
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