Newbie question about Engrams

[Cannon Fodder]

OK, so the way I read it, Engrams are recordings of past events, which can include pain etc. They are recorded 24/7 and are recorded also in the unconscious state. Correct?

In auditing, one strives to erase past distressing Engrams (events)?

I know my example above is very basic, but if I am correct; if an Engram is erased, I assume the normal person's memory of that event - for instance, banging your head on a sharp object, or having a bad experience with a vicious dog - is removed?

Am I on the right track so far?

 

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

You are in the ball park CF. Where did you "read" it?

 

[Bea Kiddo]

OK, so the way I read it, Engrams are recordings of past events, which can include pain etc. They are recorded 24/7 and are recorded also in the unconscious state. Correct?

In auditing, one strives to erase past distressing Engrams (events)?

I know my example above is very basic, but if I am correct; if an Engram is erased, I assume the normal person's memory of that event - for instance, banging your head on a sharp object, or having a bad experience with a vicious dog - is removed?

Am I on the right track so far?

Per Dianetics, it would be removed as far as its negative effect on the person. It is not removed as a memory.

That is the simpliest way to explain it.

 

[grundy]

My esoteric explanation.

http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?t=5587

the effort is to remove the "charge"

 

[programmer_guy]

OK, so the way I read it, Engrams are recordings of past events, which can include pain etc. They are recorded 24/7 and are recorded also in the unconscious state. Correct?

In auditing, one strives to erase past distressing Engrams (events)?

I know my example above is very basic, but if I am correct; if an Engram is erased, I assume the normal person's memory of that event - for instance, banging your head on a sharp object, or having a bad experience with a vicious dog - is removed?

Am I on the right track so far?

Sort of... but not exactly. The supposed "memory" is not removed... just the mental "charge" on the incident.


Here are a couple of references for starters:

Engram (Dianetics)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engram_(Dianetics)
EDIT: wiki article is no longer there. I wonder why.
But if you enter "engram" at the home page and click on the SCN link it still downloads.

A Real Experiment Comes Up Dry
http://www.mystae.com/streams/gnosis/engram.html

 

[uniquemand]

OK, so the way I read it, Engrams are recordings of past events, which can include pain etc. They are recorded 24/7 and are recorded also in the unconscious state. Correct?

In auditing, one strives to erase past distressing Engrams (events)?

I know my example above is very basic, but if I am correct; if an Engram is erased, I assume the normal person's memory of that event - for instance, banging your head on a sharp object, or having a bad experience with a vicious dog - is removed?

Am I on the right track so far?

No.

It's explained in Dianetics, so I suggest you read that.

Instead of being erased from memory, it is "erased" from the "reactive mind". The memory is still available to the person, but the "charge" is removed. A better term would be "transferred" from the "reactive mind" to the "analytical mind".

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

The propblem of coourse, is that memories are not concrete images; and memories are built upon memories. Instead of a memory being like a picture, it is more like a drawing. People erase some memories or add to the original memory. And what they remember is based on the narrative they have created, not the other way around.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[uniquemand]

Actually, it's both ways around. Things DO happen. We interpret them. Then later, we remember them, based on the narrative we have told ourselves, and on what actually happened.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

OK, so the way I read it, Engrams are recordings of past events, which can include pain etc. They are recorded 24/7 and are recorded also in the unconscious state. Correct?

In auditing, one strives to erase past distressing Engrams (events)?

I know my example above is very basic, but if I am correct; if an Engram is erased, I assume the normal person's memory of that event - for instance, banging your head on a sharp object, or having a bad experience with a vicious dog - is removed?

Am I on the right track so far?

It's more that the aberrative aspects are eliminated. One would still remember the event.

 

[Zephyr]

OK, so the way I read it, Engrams are recordings of past events, which can include pain etc. They are recorded 24/7 and are recorded also in the unconscious state. Correct?

In auditing, one strives to erase past distressing Engrams (events)?

I know my example above is very basic, but if I am correct; if an Engram is erased, I assume the normal person's memory of that event - for instance, banging your head on a sharp object, or having a bad experience with a vicious dog - is removed?

Am I on the right track so far?

Hey CF,

With all due respect to everyone's answers herein, if I were you and was just getting into "The Tech" (or anything about SCN) I would not study only stuff Hubbard wrote or said nor would I listen solely to Scientologists, in or out.

For instance, Hubbard gives a definition of the "Reactive Mind" and its composition as if he was the first to discover it and is the supreme authority. Right there is a whole lot to question.

In fact the whole movement is based on clearing the "Reactive Mind", which IMHO has never been done (if the Reactive Mind, in fact exists) so I'd question that goal and process to get there. Look for yourself. See what Hubbard says about clear, then find one.

I dare say there are countless thousands who spent many moons trying to achieve that goal for themselves and others and became disillusioned, perhaps because that State or the processes to get there don't really cut it.

There's a good chance "The Reactive Mind", all equip with engrams, circuitry, et al, was fabricated by Hubbard to have something to address just to make a buck, which he did. I see no evidence that he or his organizations accomplished anything close to his "benevolent" goals for society or people.

Just my opinion. Question that too. The day you close your mind to anything else but Dianetics and Scientology is the day you'll become lost in it.

That's not a fun way to go.

Rob

 

[uniquemand]

Clear, an article by former Snr C/S Int, David Mayo, can be very helpful to people trying to sort out what is and isn't true about "going Clear".

 

[Zephyr]

Clear, an article by former Snr C/S Int, David Mayo, can be very helpful to people trying to sort out what is and isn't true about "going Clear".

Thanks for the article, Uni. I was at Flag when that came out, on the RPF at the time during the R/S purge. NED and XDN were the only way to graduate but they were cancelled for us because we weren't allowed to run engrams.

Back to the NEWBIE's original Qs (not that this wouldn't be a fun new thread), as I mentioned, I think it best to study "what an engram is" by also studying what other professionals say about the same thing. This is a good article by David Mayo, but at the time, he was a true believer and a very stout member of a cult ('78-'79).

Besides taking that into consideration, I'd be interested in reading from any other pro who describes the same thing out of context of SCN, after all, if Clear is true, shouldn't others than SCNists see it, recognize it, and be going for it? It seems desireable.

Same goes for "Engram" -- Mental image picture that contains pain and unconsciousness and must contain impact as part of its content. It'd be an interesting study to see Scientology in other words to either lend veracity to it or perhaps see the difference.

Rob

 

[uniquemand]

Engrams may or may not be real. The only study I know of them was very small sample size, inconclusive about clear, and was really about recovering memories lost during pain more than it was about recovering ability.

Outside of the Church, the metapsychology group has done some studies in similar practices (TIR is analogous to R3RA unmetered) on larger populations with 6 month and 2 year longitudes. They make no claims about "clear", just helping people no longer qualify for a diagnosis of PTSD.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

OK, so the way I read it, Engrams are recordings of past events, which can include pain etc. They are recorded 24/7 and are recorded also in the unconscious state. Correct?

In auditing, one strives to erase past distressing Engrams (events)?

I know my example above is very basic, but if I am correct; if an Engram is erased, I assume the normal person's memory of that event - for instance, banging your head on a sharp object, or having a bad experience with a vicious dog - is removed?

Am I on the right track so far?

Based on a quick scan of the thread, others have done a good job of addressing your immediate question. The one thing I wish to add is that you should take definitions of dianetic & scientology terms as descriptive or metaphoric rather than as literal truths.

Whether or not any given term or item is exactly "correct" the technology of scientology describes a variety of observable phenomena which can be recognized and addressed through the procedures of auditing to give significant personal gains to individuals. Much like as in physics and chemistry where the Bohr model of the atom is used to simplify understanding of physical phenomena whose actuality is not as clearly understood.

Many of the terms and practices used in scientology have counterparts in other disciplines. A major advantage of the scientology paradigm is the extent of the model and it's cohesion as a whole in creating a relatively easy to implement workable technology of mind & spirit.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Zinjifar]

The one thing I wish to add is that you should take definitions of dianetic & scientology terms as descriptive or metaphoric rather than as literal truths.

Mark A. Baker

The above recommendation is a good one, but, is also a 'High Crime' in Scientology called 'Tech Degrade'

Ron *intended* for His pronouncements to be taken literally. Always.

Zinj

 

[Mark A. Baker]

The above recommendation is a good one, but, is also a 'High Crime' in Scientology called 'Tech Degrade'

Ron *intended* for His pronouncements to be taken literally. Always.

Zinj

That was his "problem". Fortunately for the rest of us, he's no longer around to cause difficulties.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Cannon Fodder]

Thanks for all your interesting comments. One more question; does an Engram *have* to include a moment of pain in order to be "erased" by an auditor?

 

[uniquemand]

According to Hubbard, there are two types of Engrams. Regular ones, which contain pain, and Secondary Engrams. Secondaries are painful emotional periods, upsets, etc., which are very similar in intensity to regular engrams, but which don't contain physical pain.

 

[Cannon Fodder]

Thanks for your quick response uniquemand. Is there somewhere online I can read about these two different types of Engrams, or at least grab a quote where Hubbard actually states there are two different kinds?

 

[uniquemand]

Google is your friend. So is a library.