How OT was Elron?

[Hatshepsut]

I agree with Alanzo 100%. I was saying that the person JUSTIFIES his not having full OT abilities based on a feeling that being basically good he knows it is an overt to use the powers for the wrong reasons and therefore with holds the powers from himself. I did not actually mean that this was a valid and acceptable technical reason why one did not have the powers. Hubbard thought of virtually every loophole that a person could complain about and ask for his money back or make the tech wrong and he supplied a pat answer for each of these which became part of the official tech.

I watched the entire 2 hour Jason Beghe vid on XenuTV last night. He said he had a really botched L-10. That is the Doingness RD that looks for the biggest whole track overt I believe. While one is doing it as a pc one is with the data that the only reason a being withholds himself from his god-like abilities is that he has harmed some dynamic in the past.
I saw a few good staff members get knocked off their pins and become unstable at the time of the List 1 Rock Slams. In 1979 , the D of P from the Miami Org was sec checked by missionaires sent up from Flag. His family had 2 Class XII auditors in it.. RTC wanted Money, money, money. If stats were down they would find the WHO.

If there were ever evil psychs on the whole track this woulda been our achilles heel. No doubt about it. And here was SO doing a good dramatization of stirring up that charge. Excavating for that hidden evil purpose.

As I watched Jason Beghe talk about his let down and his refunds for himself and his wife I could see that he was constantly referring to the tech. This fellow knew his stuff once and now wanted nothing to do with it. He had BPC!! Lots. He was asked to dig around and mess up his case lookiing for what is handled on L-10 amongst other things. Remember Lisa McPhereson died after her L-11... and went beserk.
Jason looked directly into the camera and shaking his head in disgust stated point blank that the C of $ 's prized Ls levels "messed him up".!!

This is very sad. There are supposed to be 4 flows. That's the mechanics of it. In accepting that if we had never done anything bad to anyone else FIRST we would have no charge, were we evaluated for? Is this ABSOLUTELY the truth? :confused2:

This was certainly my assertion when I first started to roller coaster. I went straight for what I did to pull it in. I wanted to get at it. I wanted Integrity processing. I wanted HRD. I wanted FPRD. I wanted to the bottom of it C'mon lets go for the gusto!! I unmocked my prepaid OT levels and my Briefing Course, and my PDC course and my levels training to use those monies to buy reviews. I was experiencing hits from another dimension and I did not know why some bigger beings outside time would mess with me. I wanted ANSWERS. My hidden standard was that.. 'I did the overt' and I was going to find it. Dig dig dig ....

I never got to that hidden big overt which I felt sent my case into a decline spiralling downward. I was PTS for sure but where was my bad deed that precipitated it?? I would not let go of my hidden standard no matter what. But was this idea I held close to me accurate. Was it the real WHY?
It seems to me that if one being hits another being hard enough POW, it causes the hit being to feel wrong. Or at least made wrong or guilty. Now that's a control mechanism. For me to spend all the tips I'd saved for 5 yrs just to find why I pulled it in...well.
Look at all those 6 month security checks! Didn't it get conceded finally that this had been an arbitrary. What the hell is going on with all this guilt finding.
There has been so much raving about the Psychs on the track . In the False Purpose RD original flyers that I received back in 1982 it was stated that a discovery was made. These EVIL guys had implanted beings with intentions to harm or destroy some of their dynamics. It was realized that beings would then cut their own power in order to stop themselves from doing harm . This is because a being is basically good. So I ASK you. When did we stop getting the benefit of the doubt. Wasn't it right about the time that RTC wanted into everyone's pocket and became the dramatizing black hand that it was. I mean if they were so hot on this topic why wasn't Expanded Dianetics left the way it was.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

There are people on this board who knew Elron in the early days of Scientology. One thing that intrigues me is how OT Elron was in those days. I guess that to inspire people like He did He would have to be pretty OT so what stories about Elron's OT Powerz can you share with us by those who knew Him?

what I find interesting is that if you talk to a True Believer and they are starting to cling on to their beliefs - after all they cannot actually "do" anything resembling "OT" and the Grade Chart is a bunch of rubbish - they are reduced to such things as "well creating Scientology was OT - you have to admit that"

And now I actually get to address that statement.

I have found that Scientologists, once they arrive at the realization that the whole 'clear' 'OT' and Grade Chart are a crock, that whenever they feel the next level may just be-the-one where they get a real, verifiable results that they never actually materialize and they have to once again fall back on the "Wow! I feel so much more at cause! I feel wonderful, I feel.. I feel..." success story. Those scientologists have to start taking part in rationalizations to make all their sacrifice OK. To justify to themselves the huge amounts of money that they have spent.

And, inevitably, they seize on the "Hubbard created Scientology - that was OT" statement or something similar.

It would seem that part of the process of selling oneself on Scientology involves dreaming up new definitions and standards for "OT".

Scientologists, of course, are not able to discuss Scientology - not even among themselves. They have absolutely no critical thinking skills in this area. They know only one thing - discuss the OTHER person. Attack the other person. But they cannot and never have actually integrated their learning in Scientology with the real world - because if they did that, pfffft! It would vanish like a fart in the wind.

So they constantly have to redefine it to themselves. And that is fin until they make contact with the outside.

Because, if the amended definition of OT is now "made a big organization with a lot of people in it" then they will not realize that they have just admitted that there are many many OTS around who are much more powerful than Hubbard ever was - why not follow them?

Some examples - Brigham Young who forged a religious organization that is everything Scientology wishes it was. Bill Gates whose company employs more people than there are in Scientology altogether, Steve Jobs, Stanley Tookie Williams who founded the Crips, Sonny Barger who turned the Hells Angels into a multi national conglomerate, the list is enormous and encompasses the good and the bad and the evil and Hubbard is not even a pimple on a bad man's ass.

So if I ever hear that from some Scientologist ever again, I have an answer.

 

[olska]

<snip>
It seems to me that if one being hits another being hard enough POW, it causes the hit being to feel wrong. Of at least made wrong or guilty. Now that's a control mechanism.

A very brief study of the effects of child abuse on child victims, where a parent (the stronger one) acts out his/her cruel impulses on a child (the weaker one), will verify the fact that yes, the victim who was "hit hard" often feels wrong, or guilty -- that somehow all that abuse was his or her fault -- at least partly because the abuser enforces that guilt.

Child abuse is only one (but one very obvious) example of shame and guilt enforced on the "weaker" victim by a "stronger" abuser. Child abuse and its effects on victims is a significant problem in society. But a problem not ever addressed by "scientology."

Funny (not) how "scientology" never seems to address real life situations that actually affect people in the here and now but rather, by both its theory and its processes, takes people off on elaborate excursions into unreality that rarely lead to solutions to real-life challenges.

 

[lkwdblds]

Did RaY Kroc scream at Ronald McDonald

Alanzo, you are a crack up! I have a couple of guys who may be more OT than Ray Kroc. One is Colonel Sanders of Kentucky Freid Chicken and the Other is Jack In the Box. (I don't think Kroc had to yell at his employees because their stats have been in a Power trend for over 50 years!)

Colonel Sanders has the best mock up. Its kind of like Santa Claus, everyone knows his image. Jack has trumped the Colonel. He obviously has gone "back track" and has been able to resurrect the head off of a "doll body" he once ran way back down the time track. Not only that but Jack is able to cloud peoples minds so that when they look at his doll body head, even close up, all they see is a head from a human body. Jack is also following the new definition of the second dynamic by CREATING a doll body head, very similar to his own, for his Son even though his wife is totally human. Very OT abilities, don't you agree?
lkwdblds

 

[Alanzo]

Alanzo, you are a crack up! I have a couple of guys who may be more OT than Ray Kroc. One is Colonel Sanders of Kentucky Freid Chicken and the Other is Jack In the Box. (I don't think Kroc had to yell at his employees because their stats have been in a Power trend for over 50 years!)

Colonel Sanders has the best mock up. Its kind of like Santa Claus, everyone knows his image. Jack has trumped the Colonel. He obviously has gone "back track" and has been able to resurrect the head off of a "doll body" he once ran way back down the time track. Not only that but Jack is able to cloud peoples minds so that when they look at his doll body head, even close up, all they see is a head from a human body. Jack is also following the new definition of the second dynamic by CREATING a doll body head, very similar to his own, for his Son even though his wife is totally human. Very OT abilities, don't you agree?
lkwdblds

Actually, the freakiest OT of them all is "The King" from Burger King.

How he can play football and everything, and STILL expand the organization he founded around the planet? And his face stays in that same freaky smile, and remains oddly still even though the rest of his body is moving frenetically.

It must be his TRs.

Now THAT'S OT!!!

 

[Iknowtoomuch]

And I wonder....

If people did not do as Ray Kroc asked, did he scream at them?

Ray had more followers than Ron did. Ron knew he only had a few people that would really follow him (on the ships) and knew he had to scream at them because if he had more followers he would have just done what Ray did.....fire them and get better followers.

 

[Hatshepsut]

olska wrote:

A very brief study of the effects of child abuse on child victims, where a parent (the stronger one) acts out his/her cruel impulses on a child (the weaker one), will verify the fact that yes, the victim who was "hit hard" often feels wrong, or guilty -- that somehow all that abuse was his or her fault -- at least partly because the abuser enforces that guilt.

Child abuse is only one (but one very obvious) example of shame and guilt enforced on the "weaker" victim by a "stronger" abuser. Child abuse and its effects on victims is a significant problem in society. But a problem not ever addressed by "scientology."

Funny (not) how "scientology" never seems to address real life situations that actually affect people in the here and now but rather, by both its theory and its processes, takes people off on elaborate excursions into unreality that rarely lead to solutions to real-life challenges.

THANKYOU. :baby1:

 

[xseaorguk]

Quote:
Scientologists, of course, are not able to discuss Scientology - not even among themselves. They have absolutely no critical thinking skills in this area. They know only one thing - discuss the OTHER person. Attack the other person. But they cannot and never have actually integrated their learning in Scientology with the real world - because if they did that, pfffft! It would vanish like a fart in the wind

Very well formulated!
Thanks for that!

 

[knn]

IMO Hubbard was a very talented con man with sociopathic tendencies and psychological issues and maybe even some serious psychiatric problems.
...
I think L. Ron Hubbard was a paranoid schizophrenic. IMO, he was probably also bipolar (manic depressive) and it is not unusual for these disorders to co-occur. Why they occur is something not yet known to science, but he had plenty of precursors.

But that tells only very little of the full truth.

With such an approach I could describe Michael Jackson as "A pale artist with erratic movements". That completely misses the point. Even if Hubbard was paranoid we have to give him credit for his books and lectures.

OJ Roos (the Class 12 who FESed Hubbard's folders) wrote:
"Folders came in from all over the world, going back to 1948. Most of the old stuff were often scraps of paper. Solo Research data went as far as what he called then OT 19.
It became a stack of some 8 feet high, an entire filing cabinet full.
The aligning and FESing, even in the hands of the XII's, took months.
[...]
In the folders we found virtually every process known as well as lots of never published actions. There were thousands upon thousands of pages of LISTS (3GAXX, 3MX, 3N, R 2-12...umpty Goals/Oppose lists...enough for about ten million correction lists, so to speak), all of them O/R, over a TA 6.0. etc.

This was the tech of those times, the auditors, I'm sure, did the best they could (LRH himself was one of them, soloing lists endlessly!!). Rehab data, Laws of L/N, etc., unknown at the time of these sessions, was never applied to him. F/N data the same.
[...]
LRH, to me, does remain a pc in NEED, with more OUT TECH (of most unbelievable magnitude and force) on his case than any other 10 people combined."

His life's purpose was to find a Bridge and this finally finished him (and also to a large part a thing that Hubbard didn't know about the Purif, but that's a) my opinion only and b) offtopic here).

 

[knn]

This is very sad. There are supposed to be 4 flows. That's the mechanics of it. In accepting that if we had never done anything bad to anyone else FIRST we would have no charge, were we evaluated for? Is this ABSOLUTELY the truth? :confused2:

I think that there are more flows and that this is one of the main reasons why Orgs will get worse and the Ls can cave in. Not that I would encourage anyone to run flows, but reducing flows to merely 4 (or a bit more if you include BTs) is simply WRONG.

 

[Alanzo]

But that tells only very little of the full truth.

With such an approach I could describe Michael Jackson as "A pale artist with erratic movements". That completely misses the point. Even if Hubbard was paranoid we have to give him credit for his books and lectures.

OJ Roos (the Class 12 who FESed Hubbard's folders) wrote:
"Folders came in from all over the world, going back to 1948. Most of the old stuff were often scraps of paper. Solo Research data went as far as what he called then OT 19.
It became a stack of some 8 feet high, an entire filing cabinet full.
The aligning and FESing, even in the hands of the XII's, took months.
[...]
In the folders we found virtually every process known as well as lots of never published actions. There were thousands upon thousands of pages of LISTS (3GAXX, 3MX, 3N, R 2-12...umpty Goals/Oppose lists...enough for about ten million correction lists, so to speak), all of them O/R, over a TA 6.0. etc.

This was the tech of those times, the auditors, I'm sure, did the best they could (LRH himself was one of them, soloing lists endlessly!!). Rehab data, Laws of L/N, etc., unknown at the time of these sessions, was never applied to him. F/N data the same.
[...]
LRH, to me, does remain a pc in NEED, with more OUT TECH (of most unbelievable magnitude and force) on his case than any other 10 people combined."

His life's purpose was to find a Bridge and this finally finished him (and also to a large part a thing that Hubbard didn't know about the Purif, but that's a) my opinion only and b) offtopic here).

Revisionist history is such a convenient thing.

LRH piloted the Sweat Program and the Purification Rundown.

He was the C/S for Scientology throughout its history. If anyone on the planet knew that Scientology did not produce Clears and OTs as LRH had defined them, LRH knew.

Come on.

Beliefs are good. But not when they are based on delusional justifications that are used to get and keep others delusional as well.

 

[knn]

He was the C/S for Scientology throughout its history. If anyone on the planet knew that Scientology did not produce Clears and OTs as LRH had defined them, LRH knew.

Yes, he knew and this is probably his biggest Overt. To MAKE THE IMPRESSION that there is a Bridge.

He probably hoped that this will attract many followers and by then he would have found a working Bridge.

Yes, you are right: The biggest secret is not on the OT levels but that there is no Bridge.

 

[RolandRB]

Revisionist history is such a convenient thing.

LRH piloted the Sweat Program and the Purification Rundown.

He was the C/S for Scientology throughout its history. If anyone on the planet knew that Scientology did not produce Clears and OTs as LRH had defined them, LRH knew.

Come on.

Beliefs are good. But not when they are based on delusional justifications that are used to get and keep others delusional as well.

But he redefined Clear and OT. Instead of Clears being immune to colds and flu, perhaps living until they were 500 years old and solving chess problems in a fraction of the time, they ended up as realizing they were mocking up their own reactive mind. This despite him telling people fior years that they had a reactive mind. And as for redefining OTs, then these billion gigawatt OTs who could levitate things and do a Grand Tour of the universe ended up as people "who can make it go right" (i.e. make money for Scientology). So LRH never cheated anybody, he just moved the goalposts a little.

 

[donotwashbrain]

YOU GUYS ARE GREAT

I love hearing the truth about Scientology and I am so so so relieved to hear truth and not BS...for all the many many years that I saw inconsistencies, out points, no OT powers or clears among all the people I knew, and myself...people who were so dedicated to CoS and tech...yet could not handle life well , the first 3 dynamics..and I often wondered why LRH had 2 divorces and let his wife Mary Sue go to prison for him...I wondered..but could not talk to any one about what I wondered..thank you all for being real..truthful and here. I feel better and better every day.:dancer:

 

[Hatshepsut]

I refuse to drown in a sea of disillusionment. I have pursued the 'star high goal' for too long and NOT just in the Johnny come lately tech of Scientology. I've made it out a couple of times.. But I'm back in the human loop again. I wanna know WHY. That is my QUEST. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZE4KGB6Wt4

 

[degraded being]

I refuse to drown in a sea of disillusionment. I have pursued the 'star high goal' for too long and NOT just in the Johnny come lately tech of Scientology. I've made it out a couple of times.. But I'm back in the human loop again. I wanna know WHY. That is my QUEST. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZE4KGB6Wt4

Have you considered that that, (above) is what you have to make it out of?

Refusing to be disillusioned will probably mean making it out yet again, and having to get back in the loop again.

Go ahead and let yourself drown...in the sea of dis - illusionment.

 

[Hatshepsut]

Ooooooh...that's deep. But I understand where you're coming from.

 

[knn]

We all know that OT XV L. Con Blubbard had NO OT powers at all,
(not three hundred grand's worth or slave labor-worth) because he got sick, old, had financial, legal problems and allowed a psych drug into his system, etc.!

With such arguments you can prove that Jesus was not the son of god because he had legal problems and died, too.

Moreover how do you know LRH had financial problems? Where is this info coming from?

 

[uniquemand]

Jesus didn't exist, except as a carpenter.

What records do you have to prove otherwise?

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Jesus didn't exist, except as a carpenter.

What records do you have to prove otherwise?

Christian is entirely based on faith, if you are looking for building permits issued 2000 years ago to a Carpenter from Nazareth named Jesus you missed the point of Christianity.