Royal Prince Xenu
Trust the Psi Corps.
The hardest person to forgive is yourself.
War crimes: Are exes accountable for things they did when they were in?
- Thread starter Lulu Belle
- Start date
The hardest person to forgive is yourself.
Carmel
Crusader
Ain't that the truth!
After getting "out", when I realised what I had done, what I had been a part of, and what I was supporting, I felt sick.
I made many mistakes in my time in Scn, but a few mistakes in particular, in my early years, left me feeling quite gutted at the time. So much so, that I vowed and declared to myself (and very soon after the fact), that I would never do "that" again, or sit by and watch "that", again........and I didn't.
I also made other mistakes of a different nature......those mistakes that I had no idea of until after I was "out" (like building up an org, fsm'ing new people in, and donating to the IAS).
I have few or little qualms now, about the times that I did the wrong thing while knowing it - That's probably because it hit me like a ton of bricks straight after I did it, I didn't do it again, and I believe that I subsequently made up for it.
I still have qualms though about introducing so many people to Scn, supporting the CofS, and donating to the IAS. I don't feel there is anything I could do to make up for that, but nor am I kicking myself over it particularly, because when it comes to that, it wasn't all bad, some of it was good, I thought I was helping, and most importantly, I wasn't harming another in an effort to "protect" or make gain for myself at the expense of others.
I used to be one dedicated 'mother' of a Scio - I wanted ta help, and often within the world of the CofS I did. There were times though, when I had thrown in the towel and didn't. Like most who worked in Scn Orgs, I was there and stayed there to "help".
It's not smart to cry over spilled milk. By the same token though, it wouldn't be smart to ignore bucket-loads spilled intentionally, especially when subsequently little or nothing was or has been done to clean it up.
I would suggest that people look into the Nurenburg trial of war criminals that was held after WWII for some analogies. The short answer, IMO, is that they are responsible for their behavior. Those at the top are there because they bought into a system that is systemically repressive and succeeded in that environment.
Once the epiphany comes, it is a different question entirely. The sad fact is that most crimes are not discovered, let alone prosecuted, unless deals are made with the participants. If the Dept. of Justice ever grows the balls to prosecute David Miscavige and the church, people like Rathbun and Rinder will be a key to that success. I wouldn't give either a free pass, but the crimes they have admitted committing, warrant a prison term.
lkwdblds
Crusader
Being Contrite is the key.
Carmel - Very good post. Obviously you meant no one harm when you supported the C of S and yet when you got out you realized that many of the actions you did contributed to a group which does harm to people. You did a lot of "soul searching" and you are contrite. To me, the question posed on this thread is simple. If a person does a lot of soul searching, is contrite, makes up whatever damages can be made up and then moves on with their life then their need to be accountable has been fulfilled. So that others know where they stand, it is wise to announce this contrition to others.
Its really not "rocket science" or a complex issue, this is about all there is to this subject.
Lkwdblds
Carmel - Very good post. Obviously you meant no one harm when you supported the C of S and yet when you got out you realized that many of the actions you did contributed to a group which does harm to people. You did a lot of "soul searching" and you are contrite. To me, the question posed on this thread is simple. If a person does a lot of soul searching, is contrite, makes up whatever damages can be made up and then moves on with their life then their need to be accountable has been fulfilled. So that others know where they stand, it is wise to announce this contrition to others.
Its really not "rocket science" or a complex issue, this is about all there is to this subject.
Lkwdblds
Good twin
Floater
How many people died on your watch? It may not be rocket science, but for some of us it is complex. Intellectually I get it. Emotionally it's not so easy.
GT
Royal Prince Xenu
Trust the Psi Corps.
Like I said, the hardest one to forgive is yourself. Nothing we do can bring back the Lisa McPhersons of the world, but if we can stop it happening again, then we're producing a positive out of a negative.
Carmel
Crusader
Yeah, it's not rocket science, but for any individual who has lived it (and there are many), it IS a complex issue, and one that certainly isn't easily dealt with.
I'm sorry if I gave you the wrong impression - Personally, after going through much over all this, I'm still battling with it to some extent. It sure as hell isn't a walk in the park.
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
lkwdblds
Crusader
I got what you are saying!
Good Twin - After reading your post and Carmel's similar post right after it, I have had my reality changed and now realize that for many of you it is a complex issue and that emotionally it is not easy. I guess what I am trying to say is, "I've had my reality changed and I retract my original comment about this not being rocket science." I am sorry for being insensitive.
In my own case, I am not wrestling with the burden that many of you have. I got in at Celebrity Centre in 1970 and there was much good going on there. I really did not discern much bad at all for 3 years. I was training to be an auditor and then joined staff and went into Treasury. I really did not have to commit overts, lie or tell phoney shore stories. When I went to the Apollo in late 1973 I got my first taste of insanity and I actually stood up to the Sea Org and refused to be pushed around and routed out but stayed an active Scientologist for 30 years more. Mainly, I just did admin and tech training and received auditing all those 30 years. I tried hard to FSM people and sell Dianetics books but I failed to ever get anyone to become a Scientologist and only sold a handfull of books to my immediate family .
I did not experience instances where I ruined peoples' lives or wrecked them financially and that may explain why I did not have sufficient understanding of where you people who did harm peoples' lives are coming from.
I am going to be reading more of your stories on this thread and re read the one's I have already read and try and duplicate more effectively the issues which you are struggling with on this thread.
Again I am sorry for any anguish I may have caused through my insensitivity.
Lkwdblds
Good Twin - After reading your post and Carmel's similar post right after it, I have had my reality changed and now realize that for many of you it is a complex issue and that emotionally it is not easy. I guess what I am trying to say is, "I've had my reality changed and I retract my original comment about this not being rocket science." I am sorry for being insensitive.
In my own case, I am not wrestling with the burden that many of you have. I got in at Celebrity Centre in 1970 and there was much good going on there. I really did not discern much bad at all for 3 years. I was training to be an auditor and then joined staff and went into Treasury. I really did not have to commit overts, lie or tell phoney shore stories. When I went to the Apollo in late 1973 I got my first taste of insanity and I actually stood up to the Sea Org and refused to be pushed around and routed out but stayed an active Scientologist for 30 years more. Mainly, I just did admin and tech training and received auditing all those 30 years. I tried hard to FSM people and sell Dianetics books but I failed to ever get anyone to become a Scientologist and only sold a handfull of books to my immediate family .
I did not experience instances where I ruined peoples' lives or wrecked them financially and that may explain why I did not have sufficient understanding of where you people who did harm peoples' lives are coming from.
I am going to be reading more of your stories on this thread and re read the one's I have already read and try and duplicate more effectively the issues which you are struggling with on this thread.
Again I am sorry for any anguish I may have caused through my insensitivity.
Lkwdblds
Carmel
Crusader
Man oh man! - Is this ever, one fuckin' sick twist of what we were saying!
Go jump, lkwdblds!
Gadfly
Crusader
One possible way to look at this is that you were contributing to and assisting a group that DID, even if unknown to you at the time and hidden from you, ruin people's lives and wrecked them financially. "Contributing to the motion" is an interesting idea.
As an example, while in the Church I gradually became aware of what "my Church" had done to Paulette Cooper, Gabe Cavarez and other people. I read critical books and websites for MANY years while in the Church. While it is true that a great deal of the atrocities ARE hidden from the general staff and public, once one learns, it becomes complicated.
If you paid a CENT to any Church at any time, there is no doubt that in some way you assisted in harming somebody. If you recuited anyone, who then went on to support and forward the expansion of the Church, then you probably hurt someone (indirectly). If you suggested an LRH book to anyone and this person came to support the Church, then you also in some way caused harm to someone (albeit indirectly).
As I see it, if you were involved and supported the Church at any time in any way, then YOU have contributed in some way, even if unknowingly, to harming other people. If you support a group that does harm to others, even though unknown to you, through one quiet covert department (such as OSA), does one have any responsibility?
I think the answer is YES.
Okay, so you may not have sat down and regged a guy for all his life savings or forced a public person to mortgage her house for more than she could ever repay, BUT you did participate and support a system and group that DID DO these things. And, this group has done and continues to do MANY other unsavory things to people.
Make sense?
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lkwdblds
Crusader
Help straighten me out.
Carmel - I read your post #84 on this thread and felt like I was tracking it perfectly. I greatly admired what you had to say and referenced that in another post. This brought a bad reaction from you so I re read your post #84and tried to get a feel for where I had misduplicated you.
What puzzled me was that I initially felt I was victimized by others in C of S but I never felt that I had victimized anyone. Maybe I was too low on the Org board or was too theetie weetie to harm others or maybe I did harm them and was not aware of having done so. I felt I needed to change my viewpoint and understand better how those such as yourself, whom I admire, are wrestling so hard with the harm that they did to others when they were active in C of S.
It appears my second post on the subject was even more offensive to you than my first. I was shocked at that and reread your #84 again. It may sound stupid but though I find your post #84 inspirational, it seems as if I am unable to grasp some important essence of what you are saying in it. If you could take a moment to point out to me what I am missing or misduplicating or how I am offending you, I would really appreciate it. The last thing I want to do on this board is cause or aggravate a bad reaction in someone such as yourself whom I greatly admire.
Carmel - I just read Gadfly's post on my quote which offended you so much. If the points he makes summarize correctly what it is about what I wrote that offended you so much, then there is no need to reply back to me as I requested above.
Gadfly - Yes, I would agree with what you are saying. What really makes it hard for me is that in my first 3 years in I saw an incredible amount of good and very little bad, I'd say about a 90% to 10% ratio. I thought with total certainty, at the time. that the Scientology system of runing things was vastly superior to how things were being run in the world at large.
When I began to see a lot of Red Flags going up signaling that the Scientology system was corrupt and dangerous, I initially assumed, as did so many others, that it was not Scientology tech or Hubbard who was corrupt but the people runing the Organization. Self criticism for flowing power to C of S never occurred to me. I did not start questioning my participation from that point of view until perhaps 4 years ago. I helped a lot of people, spent hours giving sessions to people and giving touch assists and coaching my twins on courses. Many people wrote glowing success stories after my efforts.
Since I left the Church on my own after feeling the balance of good to bad had shifted from 90% -10% to 10%-90%, I did not suffer great feelings and misgivings for the harm I may have inadvertently caused others by flowing power to C of S. Per Gadfly's comments, maybe I have been too lax about taking responsibility for my part in furthering C of S and really need to confront and take more responsibility for my part in aiding their organizations to grow. If this results from me joining ESMB and participating on the board then this thread in particular will be the most important one that I have participated in to date.
Lkwdblds
Man oh man! - Is this ever, one fuckin' sick twist of what we were saying!
Go jump, lkwdblds!
Carmel - I read your post #84 on this thread and felt like I was tracking it perfectly. I greatly admired what you had to say and referenced that in another post. This brought a bad reaction from you so I re read your post #84and tried to get a feel for where I had misduplicated you.
What puzzled me was that I initially felt I was victimized by others in C of S but I never felt that I had victimized anyone. Maybe I was too low on the Org board or was too theetie weetie to harm others or maybe I did harm them and was not aware of having done so. I felt I needed to change my viewpoint and understand better how those such as yourself, whom I admire, are wrestling so hard with the harm that they did to others when they were active in C of S.
It appears my second post on the subject was even more offensive to you than my first. I was shocked at that and reread your #84 again. It may sound stupid but though I find your post #84 inspirational, it seems as if I am unable to grasp some important essence of what you are saying in it. If you could take a moment to point out to me what I am missing or misduplicating or how I am offending you, I would really appreciate it. The last thing I want to do on this board is cause or aggravate a bad reaction in someone such as yourself whom I greatly admire.
Carmel - I just read Gadfly's post on my quote which offended you so much. If the points he makes summarize correctly what it is about what I wrote that offended you so much, then there is no need to reply back to me as I requested above.
Gadfly - Yes, I would agree with what you are saying. What really makes it hard for me is that in my first 3 years in I saw an incredible amount of good and very little bad, I'd say about a 90% to 10% ratio. I thought with total certainty, at the time. that the Scientology system of runing things was vastly superior to how things were being run in the world at large.
When I began to see a lot of Red Flags going up signaling that the Scientology system was corrupt and dangerous, I initially assumed, as did so many others, that it was not Scientology tech or Hubbard who was corrupt but the people runing the Organization. Self criticism for flowing power to C of S never occurred to me. I did not start questioning my participation from that point of view until perhaps 4 years ago. I helped a lot of people, spent hours giving sessions to people and giving touch assists and coaching my twins on courses. Many people wrote glowing success stories after my efforts.
Since I left the Church on my own after feeling the balance of good to bad had shifted from 90% -10% to 10%-90%, I did not suffer great feelings and misgivings for the harm I may have inadvertently caused others by flowing power to C of S. Per Gadfly's comments, maybe I have been too lax about taking responsibility for my part in furthering C of S and really need to confront and take more responsibility for my part in aiding their organizations to grow. If this results from me joining ESMB and participating on the board then this thread in particular will be the most important one that I have participated in to date.
Lkwdblds
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Wisened One
Crusader
Boy, do I hear ya!
And you continue to do so outside the world of the Co$.
Mark A. Baker
I have to agree with Mark to ya, Carmy, GT and sooooo many others here at ESMB!
Good twin
Floater
Man oh man! - Is this ever, one fuckin' sick twist of what we were saying!
Go jump, lkwdblds!
Try to be patient Carmel. He get's that he didn't get it at first and is trying to be understanding. It's a diverse board. For every person who has experienced a small part what you did there are dozens who didn't. Learning about all of the other experiences and how it looked from different positions really helps me.
I did see ruined lives and death. I was not just watching from the sidelines. How much I influenced tragic decisions is what I have to sort out. It's possible that my friend would have killed himself even without the cult declaring him and enforcing his family's disconnection. We'll never know will we?
Type4_PTS
Diamond Invictus SP
As I see it, if you were involved and supported the Church at any time in any way, then YOU have contributed in some way, even if unknowingly, to harming other people. If you support a group that does harm to others, even though unknown to you, through one quiet covert department (such as OSA), does one have any responsibility?
I think the answer is YES.
Gadfly, actually I completely agree with this and for me I feel just as responsible as those who were directly on recruit or reg lines even though I tended to work more in support type rolls. It's amazing how you can work for an organization like this for years for 50 cents an hour because your purpose is to HELP and it just gets turned around 180 degrees.
I feel though that because of my past involvement with the Co$ (and the knowledge obtained) that this now gives me an opportunity to REALLY help people........help make others aware of the dangers before they get in, and help others to get out.
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Mick Wenlock
Admin Emeritus (retired)
Oh no you are not - you are just parroting the same old tired attack twists that OSA have tried to use for decades.
the problem is that you are not very good at it.
Kind of sad for ya.
But you will do well teaming up with a total tosspot like Rathbun.
What a great team!!
The "I did nothing in the SO" and "I did nothing but what DM told me" - wow what profiles in courage you two are.
ROFLMAO - if it was not so pathetic it might even muster up to being funny.
I would just gather up the little shards of your loser posts, gather the tattered shreds of your very small self esteem and get back to playing with yourself in the corner.
sp declared
Patron with Honors
I feel I have worked it out (at least for me)
What Lulu Belle wrote, had me thinking throughout the weekend.
I had a lot of grievances for what had been done to me while in SCN and in the S.O.
I decided to let all go and forgive everybody. Hate or desire of retribution are, in my view, a terrible medicine that at the end kills the bearer more than the target of such hate.
If they apologize fine, if they don't it's their problem. I don't believe in "Nuerberg trials". As far of my own sins, I already had quite a lot of retribution (most of the bad things I had done, "turned back" on me). I have made up the dammage for what I could, for the people I could reach and I am still trying to do my best and, if more is needed, here I am.
But life, at one point, must go on. Otherwise I feel we are truly prisonners.
We should all try to keep the good of our experience, discard the bad and get on with our lives.
If you feel hate or rage for what has been done to you, perhaps you are right. It was really terrible. But please keep in mind that those same rage will pollute you on the emotional side and could keep you in distress for ever.
Or, if all else fail, go and see a psychologist.
Sp Declared
What Lulu Belle wrote, had me thinking throughout the weekend.
I had a lot of grievances for what had been done to me while in SCN and in the S.O.
I decided to let all go and forgive everybody. Hate or desire of retribution are, in my view, a terrible medicine that at the end kills the bearer more than the target of such hate.
If they apologize fine, if they don't it's their problem. I don't believe in "Nuerberg trials". As far of my own sins, I already had quite a lot of retribution (most of the bad things I had done, "turned back" on me). I have made up the dammage for what I could, for the people I could reach and I am still trying to do my best and, if more is needed, here I am.
But life, at one point, must go on. Otherwise I feel we are truly prisonners.
We should all try to keep the good of our experience, discard the bad and get on with our lives.
If you feel hate or rage for what has been done to you, perhaps you are right. It was really terrible. But please keep in mind that those same rage will pollute you on the emotional side and could keep you in distress for ever.
Or, if all else fail, go and see a psychologist.
Sp Declared
Miss Penguin
Patron with Honors
FinallyFree
Gold Meritorious Patron
Just My Opinion
I struggle with this one and the decisions I have made regarding this may conflict or not:
• I feel that it is the senior execs such as Marty and Ray who made it possible for DM to abuse. That this would have NEVER happen without their lack of action to stop it in the first place.
• I feel like the abuse started with DM’s subordinates and trickled down from there. I think DM is psychotic and this psychosis was inherited from him by his staff. That this behavior and mentality was learned, and in fact pounded into them by DM.
• I think DM created his cronies and set them loose on those below them. Therefore I hold DM doubly accountable.
• It is my opinion that each must be held accountable for their crimes – period.
• I am willing to “lessen their sentence” of those execs who come through, confess all and make deliberate and successful attempts to bring DM to justice for his crimes and forever removed from any position in scientology.
• I think ALL staff at Int and anywhere else need government law officials such as the FBI to escort current scientology staff members out of the Int Base, ASI, BPI, HGB, INCOMM, PAC Security, CCI, CLO, FOLO, and all other orgs with *any* S.O. members posted. I want extra special care for the RPFers and RPS’s RPF’ers and what ever additional BS sub-class that may fall under the RPF’s RPF. I want them SET FREE. I want scientology to have a dollar amount assessed on what it will take for each S.O. member to get their lives back after leaving and that dollar amount granted by cashier’s check to each S.O. member who wishes to leave. I want these people t leave without signing ANY scientology documents other than perhaps a receipt.
• I think scientology is a cult and should NOT have tax exempt status.
• I think between DM’s removal and the rescinding of their tax exempt status will destroy the current scientology structure, possibly eradicating any formally established scientology groups (what they call their “church”)
I digress….. this is how I feel about it. Remove the structure of lies, abuse, control. Expose the TRUTH.
That is how I feel about it.
I struggle with this one and the decisions I have made regarding this may conflict or not:
• I feel that it is the senior execs such as Marty and Ray who made it possible for DM to abuse. That this would have NEVER happen without their lack of action to stop it in the first place.
• I feel like the abuse started with DM’s subordinates and trickled down from there. I think DM is psychotic and this psychosis was inherited from him by his staff. That this behavior and mentality was learned, and in fact pounded into them by DM.
• I think DM created his cronies and set them loose on those below them. Therefore I hold DM doubly accountable.
• It is my opinion that each must be held accountable for their crimes – period.
• I am willing to “lessen their sentence” of those execs who come through, confess all and make deliberate and successful attempts to bring DM to justice for his crimes and forever removed from any position in scientology.
• I think ALL staff at Int and anywhere else need government law officials such as the FBI to escort current scientology staff members out of the Int Base, ASI, BPI, HGB, INCOMM, PAC Security, CCI, CLO, FOLO, and all other orgs with *any* S.O. members posted. I want extra special care for the RPFers and RPS’s RPF’ers and what ever additional BS sub-class that may fall under the RPF’s RPF. I want them SET FREE. I want scientology to have a dollar amount assessed on what it will take for each S.O. member to get their lives back after leaving and that dollar amount granted by cashier’s check to each S.O. member who wishes to leave. I want these people t leave without signing ANY scientology documents other than perhaps a receipt.
• I think scientology is a cult and should NOT have tax exempt status.
• I think between DM’s removal and the rescinding of their tax exempt status will destroy the current scientology structure, possibly eradicating any formally established scientology groups (what they call their “church”)
I digress….. this is how I feel about it. Remove the structure of lies, abuse, control. Expose the TRUTH.
That is how I feel about it.
