The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[lkwdblds]

I am very sorry, I really did not have any idea.

A good topic, but not really mine

BTW if you had lost the most perfect love of a lifetime to smoking, it might be a little more interesting to you. (That's what happened to me.)


.

Hiedrun, I am so sorry for being insensitive and making sport and fun over your extremely unfortunate loss. The love whom you lost must be the 3rd of your nine year love affairs. Only now, after receiving this news, do I realize that I made a stupid remark. I beg for your forgiveness on the grounds that I did not know that you lost the love of a lifetime to smoking.

I am aware that smoking is still more prevalent in Europe than in the U.S. because I was in Europe last June. The guy I wanted you to get in communication with from the Vienna area, Karl Braunsteiner, is still a chain smoker, as is his friend Alex, who is now here working with me in Southern California. Luci, my ex wife's second cousin from France, a beautiful woman who just finished a visit here last week, still smokes but has cut down from two packs a day, when she visitied us in 2007 to 1/2 pack a day this year. She works as a nurse and she told us that she loves smoking and hates to give it up but she is nevertheless determined to give it up.

I still wish you would contact Karl. The easiest way is to PM him using his ESMB screen name, Karlo97. He is a very, very interesting guy and very friendly. He got as far as solo NOTs and has some very interesting anectdotes about his experiences in the church. He is well connected and knows a lot of influential people, many of whom are ex Scientologists. He lives in the hills of the Veinna woods, about 10 miles from St. Polten and 40 miles from Vienna. I think you two have so much in common and really should meet.

Hiedrun, I am going to sign off for now but once again, I want to express my condolences for your tragic loss and apologize for the joke I made about your thread on smoking. By the way, I tried to go to that thread yesterday to say hello but I could not find it. Please give me the name of the thread.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

I didn't really get what you are saying to me.

Lakey, no one has the story totally nailed.

Perhaps some day you will find yourself suddenly wrapped in total theta nothingness -- game over. If you are quick of perception and evaluation you will then correctly conclude, "Oh, looks like the story was totally nailed." You can then drift off into static slumber or start a new thread (game).

Ted, after your first sentence which I do understand, I do not understand the message of your second paragraph to me. I keep reading it over and I can not figure it out. I know there is negativity there, probably arising from me accepting Mike Goldstein's writings as being complete, which you obviously do not feel is correct.

Ted, you know my personna as Lakey, I am just hosting this thread. I started out doing it for fun, hoping to receive some responses, maybe reconnect with a friend or two from the past, and debrief my story to others so as to blow charge which had been stored within me for decades and also provide others a factual glimpse of how the Church operated in the 1970's. The reconnection thing has not really happened, except for meeting Chris Many last week but though he is a fine man, Chris and I were not friends then . My old buddy Hector Carmona won't return my emails nor will my old auditor Soo Forbes, although she sent her best wishes through a surrogate. I struck out on connecting up with people I used to know in the Church except for Mike Goldstein, from the Apollo, who I have been in touch with a lot lately.

My story is a little bit different in that I was not well connected when I was in but did interact with a lot of the name players both at CCLA and on the Apollo and when I was Program's Chief, I was privy to all the enormous files on CCLA and to a lesser extant the other Pac Orgs.

I do have this encyclopedic memory and I am like a sponge for soaking up knowledge. It is almost like a compulsion for me, maybe too much of a good thing because I can't turn it off. Its like when everybody picked up the command "Survive", I picked up "Survive and soak up knowledge" I mean it is sort of a manic command. Also I love problem solving and critical thinking skills, another asset which can perhaps be carried too far but I doubt it.

Anyway, I temper these traits with truth and honesty. I must learn only truths and will willingly discard any untruths which I have accepted as true. There is zero Service Facsimile on always having to be right.

With this background, I detect some resentment in your comments and the fact that you believe that Goldstein's Mission Holders' story is not the final word on the Mission Holder's conference. Please correct me and tell me where I am going wrong and what you think I should be doing instead. Your message is just too cryptic for me to grasp its meaning. You know I value your opinioins greatly and respect you greatly. Some of your responses on the thread on Education in Scientology which I ran a few months ago just totally blew me out. Also, I will never forget your brilliant summary of the Sea Org, "Is this any way to run a Navy"'

I see that Veda, the official Scientology Historian has posted after you. I wanted to answer you before I read his post. With all the fine minds we have assembled hear on this thread, this is the first time he has posted here. I am anxious to read his take on the Mission Holders controversy. In summary, please clarify your cryptic remarks to me and I will take it form there.
Lakey

 

[RogerB]

Have YOu Read Peter Greene's Bit on It?

Lakey,

Have you read Peter Greene's bit on the destruction of the Mission Holder N/W?

see it here: http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/legal/pgreene.htm

Rog

 

[lkwdblds]

Thanks for the Brilliant Summary

Other sources for the 2nd Mission Holders meeting include Martin Samuels, Bent Corydon, Bill Franks, Larry Brennan, and perhaps Homer Shomer.

I believe I have read all of these. There is agreement amongst them, right? One point of difference was that some felt Miscavige was responsible for what occured and some thought Hubbard was. I talked to Goldstein about this very recently and at length and he knew that it was Hubbard, and this was Hubbard's last major management decision.

There were (although probably deleted by now) some comments by a few former Sea Org Execs on Rathbun's site, comments that recognized that the looting of the Missions occurred with Hubbard's approval.

In fact, Hubbard had been looting the properties and bank accounts of Mission Holders for years - but one at a time, and selectively, and quietly. It was only after Hubbard moved into Southern California, in the mid/late 1970s, that he began looting them two at a time, then - after the first Mission Holders' Meeting where one former Mission Holder, who was suing the 'Church', was invited to speak, Hubbard flipped out and decided it was time to "call in the chits" - and ordered Miscavige to do so.

"Call in the chits" What a beautiful, accurate and colorful metaphor!"

In December 1979, a federal judge had ordered the release of documents from the 'Snow White' case, and these documents contained writings by Hubbard of which most Scientologists were unaware - and many still are unaware. The Mission Holders - at least some of them, although some were still in denial - were beginning to look at these documents (some of which were reported in the Press) and wonder, "Huh?" Hubbard, who didn't trust the Mission Holders anyway (They knew too much, had too much independence, and had too much money), had his "insatiable lust for power and money" (See 1986 Mayo interview), combine with a giant "missed withhold" on his secret financial, spying and dirty tricks activities of the 1960s and 1970s, and - well, it wasn't pleasant.

Miscavige earned major brownie points with Hubbard by a) Keeping Hubbard away from being legally accountable for his criminal abuses of others and general swindling b) Getting the money to Hubbard - "The Billion Dollar Caper" - mostly from the Missions.

Crediting DM with these Brownie Points was probably the worst decisiion which Hubbard made in his entire career. As a result, his legacy, which he had so much attention on aggrandizing, has become the laughing stock of the public who associates Hubbard with Lies, Fair Game, Forced Labor Camps, Breaking up families, Bilking people of funds, and selling guillable people the Xenu story at an exhorbitant price. Contrary to his wishes, any good which he did has been nearly completely buried underneath the above pile of misdeeds.

Hubbard, who had told Scientologists that, "Your fees do not go to me," etc., and who was fearful of being identified with Scientology's management, was careful to hide the fact that he was giving the orders. Accounts of Hubbard seem to disappear after 1984.

Veda, do you have any opinion of why this is so? Did he have such a severe stroke at that time that he could no longer function?

Arguing about this is probably pointless. It's like arguing with an old G.O. person who was hoodwinked into believing that Hubbard was still in Clearwater (or some other location) in mid 1976, when - in fact - Hubbard had fled secretly to Washington DC. It's a waste of time, and not terribly important in the overall scheme of things.

Hubbard had elaborate shore stories, not only for "wogs," but for Scientologists, including some who thought they were in his "inner circle" (after all, he told his G.O. inner circle that his 2nd wife was a Russian spy named Sara Komkovadamanov [!]) Lying is a Scientology sacrament - really.

Anyway, at a certain point, Hubbard didn't care about the minor details. He wanted to be safe (in hiding), wanted the money (to be relayed to overseas bank accounts mostly), and wanted to finalize the legal trusts that would establish and maintain his various monument-building and LRH fan-club projects.

If anyone cares, check the names listed at the top of this post.

Just super excellent summary, you wear the hat of Scientology historian exceedingly well. I hope you post here much more as the occassion arises. Thank you for this fine post. This post plus Mike Goldstein plust the names listed at the top give as complete a true story as we are ever likely to know. I hope this satisfies Ted desire for a completely accurate picture.
Lakey

 

[Ted]

Lakey,

Have you read Peter Greene's bit on the destruction of the Mission Holder N/W?

see it here: http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/legal/pgreene.htm

Rog

Ah, yes. Peter Greene.

I was very impressed with his talk at the meeting. Conservatively restrained rage.

 

[Ted]

Ted, after your first sentence which I do understand, I do not understand the message of your second paragraph to me. I keep reading it over and I can not figure it out. I know there is negativity there, probably arising from me accepting Mike Goldstein's writings as being complete, which you obviously do not feel is correct.

Ted, you know my personna as Lakey, I am just hosting this thread. I started out doing it for fun, hoping to receive some responses, maybe reconnect with a friend or two from the past, and debrief my story to others so as to blow charge which had been stored within me for decades and also provide others a factual glimpse of how the Church operated in the 1970's. The reconnection thing has not really happened, except for meeting Chris Many last week but though he is a fine man, Chris and I were not friends then . My old buddy Hector Carmona won't return my emails nor will my old auditor Soo Forbes, although she sent her best wishes through a surrogate. I struck out on connecting up with people I used to know in the Church except for Mike Goldstein, from the Apollo, who I have been in touch with a lot lately.

My story is a little bit different in that I was not well connected when I was in but did interact with a lot of the name players both at CCLA and on the Apollo and when I was Program's Chief, I was privy to all the enormous files on CCLA and to a lesser extant the other Pac Orgs.

I do have this encyclopedic memory and I am like a sponge for soaking up knowledge. It is almost like a compulsion for me, maybe too much of a good thing because I can't turn it off. Its like when everybody picked up the command "Survive", I picked up "Survive and soak up knowledge" I mean it is sort of a manic command. Also I love problem solving and critical thinking skills, another asset which can perhaps be carried too far but I doubt it.

Anyway, I temper these traits with truth and honesty. I must learn only truths and will willingly discard any untruths which I have accepted as true. There is zero Service Facsimile on always having to be right.

With this background, I detect some resentment in your comments and the fact that you believe that Goldstein's Mission Holders' story is not the final word on the Mission Holder's conference. Please correct me and tell me where I am going wrong and what you think I should be doing instead. Your message is just too cryptic for me to grasp its meaning. You know I value your opinioins greatly and respect you greatly. Some of your responses on the thread on Education in Scientology which I ran a few months ago just totally blew me out. Also, I will never forget your brilliant summary of the Sea Org, "Is this any way to run a Navy"'

I see that Veda, the official Scientology Historian has posted after you. I wanted to answer you before I read his post. With all the fine minds we have assembled hear on this thread, this is the first time he has posted here. I am anxious to read his take on the Mission Holders controversy. In summary, please clarify your cryptic remarks to me and I will take it form there.
Lakey

The first paragraph and second paragraph of my response stand alone. They are not necessarily related.

If you read all the reports you might see that the stories dovetail, but each is a different story. This is normal. Let the engram run. In the case of group engrams, no single viewpoint is the whole truth and nothing but the truth for everyone else.

The second paragraph can be applied to the microcosm of the Mission Holder's meeting, any event, or move on out to the big wide picture of Static.

Once a story is full told, it is over, F/N VGI's. End of story.

When THE STORY is full told, game over. Hello Static. From Static there is a choice: sleep or get back into a perception of action.

 

[lkwdblds]

Thanks for this breakthrough tip!

Lakey,

Have you read Peter Greene's bit on the destruction of the Mission Holder N/W?

see it here: http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/legal/pgreene.htm

Rog

Roger, I have not read this one. I spend about 10 minutes on it but have things to do this morning. There is new data here beyond what Veda as shown us. Any new find such as this (new for me) is a big deal and I need more time to read this carefully and thoroughly. Perhaps the key to Ted's upset with me are contained therein.

You know, we just passed 20,000 views last night, 10,000 alone since December 5. I know we have something here with so many of the best minds on ESMB linked up, plus many really good minds plus a fairly large base of upstat readers, including many scholars just trying to find out more about Scientology. I don't want this thread to become just a gossip board and a bash LRH board and the type of people who post that junk have not come to this thread which is a big plus. I am trying to think where to go from here.

Just when I am stumped as what to do, as I PMed Carmelo yesterday, this Mission Holder subject is raised. I was going to put out a poll to our readers today, asking if I should change the name of the thread and ask their opinions of how I should proceed.

We have a Forum here of brilliant minds, strong supporting minds who might be able to graduate to brillliance and an upstat public of some size who avidly reads us. I just don't feel it is right to let this all die out and disaapate. I have to come up with something, a new direction to take things or more of the same with an improved format.

I treasure being able to communicate with top beings such as yourself and a few other of the elite beings which I have been in comm with. Reaching 20,000 views was a goal I set on December 5th and thought would take at least 2 months and did it in one. What do I do with this powerful amalgam of "brain power" which we have assembled? I will come up with something good by hook or by crook.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Thanks Ted, I got it.

The first paragraph and second paragraph of my response stand alone. They are not necessarily related.

That much I figured out. I had read all those stories, I also had figured out that the stories dovetailed and that is why I stated the story was nailed down. I know see that I PREMATURELY decided that the story was a wrap which is what spurred you on to write your post..

If you read all the reports you might see that the stories dovetail, but each is a different story. This is normal. Let the engram run. In the case of group engrams, no single viewpoint is the whole truth and nothing but the truth for everyone else.

The second paragraph can be applied to the microcosm of the Mission Holder's meeting, any event, or move on out to the big wide picture of Static.

Once a story is full told, it is over, F/N VGI's. End of story.

When THE STORY is full told, game over. Hello Static. From Static there is a choice: sleep or get back into a perception of action.

Yes, I got your point, total F/N, VGI's even some cogs! Just as proof of your pudding, I just received a post after yours from Roger B. who linked me to Peter Greene's story, which I had not read and which even the erstwhile Veda, Historian extrordinaire, did not mention. Greene's post is so long that I will not be able to read it until late afternoon. I will then incorporate it into the mix.

Lakey

 

[Veda]

Ah, yes. Peter Greene.

I was very impressed with his talk at the meeting. Conservatively restrained rage.

But not (conservatively restrained) rage directed at Hubbard, but always at others.

Hubbard was issuing orders secretly, and others were carrying them out, and the naive faithfull were (sometimes, usually meekly) balking, but balking certain that they weren't "going against Ron."

Hubbard saw their behavior as a "mutiny," as these were his orders, but they didn't know that, as Hubbard's ordered were secret. The naive faithful "wanted to connect up to LRH." But that was the last thing Hubbard wanted. It's was something out of the 'Keystone Cops', except it wasn't funny.

Peter Greene's 'Debrief' of 1982 is typical of several other incredibly naive yet extremely detailed accounts from that time - detailed but with a huge blind spot, the blind spot being "LRH would never do that," etc.

Most of the people referenced - as time went by, and the Scientology programming (or 'spell') wore off - were able to re-view their experiences, and that resulted in their changing their views.

Of course, some haven't changed, and I suspect that this 'Debrief' (and other similar statements circa 1882/83) will be around for a long time, serving to convince the LRH faithful that "Ron would never do that," etc.

It's becomes quite silly after a while.

Perhaps the easiest way of addressing this 1982 'Debrief' is to quote it where it states:

"And Bent Corydon had Riverside Mission which was one of the biggest in the world with 150 staff stolen from him by John Woodruff. And Bent can tell you his own story if you are interested."

Yes, he can, and it's in the book 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?', and it's very different from the "Ron would never do that," naivete exhibited in this Debrief.

In fairness to Greene, 'Messiah or Madman?' was written in 1986, and Bent Corydon had had four years in which to free himself from the Scientology 'spell'.

 

[Veda]

Just super excellent summary, you wear the hat of Scientology historian exceedingly well. I hope you post here much more as the occassion arises. Thank you for this fine post. This post plus Mike Goldstein plust the names listed at the top give as complete a true story as we are ever likely to know. I hope this satisfies Ted desire for a completely accurate picture.
Lakey

Re. the question, "Why did Hubbard seem to disappear after 1984?" The answer is, I don't know. Only that it seems that way. One thing is for sure, he wasn't in coma for six years before his death, as was popularly believed in the 'Freezone', by some, for a long time.

But that last year or so becomes vague.

 

[lkwdblds]

THE PLOT THICKENS

But not (conservatively restrained) rage directed at Hubbard, but always at others.

Hubbard was issuing orders secretly, and others were carrying them out, and the naive faithfull were (sometimes, usually meekly) balking, but balking certain that they weren't "going against Ron."

Hubbard saw their behavior as a "mutiny," as these were his orders, but they didn't know that, as Hubbard's ordered were secret. The naive faithful "wanted to connect up to LRH." But that was the last thing Hubbard wanted. It's was something out of the 'Keystone Cops', except it wasn't funny.

Peter Greene's 'Debrief' of 1982 is typical of several other incredibly naive yet extremely detailed accounts from that time - detailed but with a huge blind spot, the blind spot being "LRH would never do that," etc.

Most of the people referenced - as time went by, and the Scientology programming (or 'spell') wore off - were able to re-view their experiences, and that resulted in their changing their views.

Of course, some haven't changed, and I suspect that this 'Debrief' (and other similar statements circa 1882/83) will be around for a long time, serving to convince the LRH faithful that "Ron would never do that," etc.

It's becomes quite silly after a while.

Perhaps the easiest way of addressing this 1982 'Debrief' is to quote it where it states:

"And Bent Corydon had Riverside Mission which was one of the biggest in the world with 150 staff stolen from him by John Woodruff. And Bent can tell you his own story if you are interested."

Yes, he can, and it's in the book 'L. Ron Hubbard, Messiah or Madman?', and it's very different from the "Ron would never do that," naivete exhibited in this Debrief.

In fairness to Greene, 'Messiah or Madman?' was written in 1986, and Bent Corydon had had four years in which to free himself from the Scientology 'spell'.

Nice response Veda, Yes today's looks, years after the glossy veneer of LRH's mystique has been stripped bare, plus the added advantage of being able to find out so much on the internet which did not exist then, tends to make even the best looks from the early and mid 1980's outdated to some degree and passe' and a bit anachronistic. Still, I must read Greene's full report.

With Woodruff, again I have personal experience. I started a 15 year career studying at O.C. in 1986 and when I first showed up, I was a former S.O. member and had served on the Apollo and at CCLA and had been on ASHO and AOLA lines for 10 years so I was introduced to Woodruff and became friendly with him. At OC Org, I had some minor degree of Celebrity Status for being an Old Timer. Just think, that was 1986 and I was already an old timer. What does that make me now, a relic? I'll tell you this, my mental acuity and memory plus my critical thinking skills are much sharper and instant with no comm lag than they were in 1986, 1976 or any earlier year. I could go on Jeopardy now and compete with the best of them in mental acuity and also reflex response on the buzzer. I give Hubbard a lot of credit for that plus looking about 15 years younger than I am.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

We passed 20,000 views last night!!!

This thread passed the 20,000 view mark last night. We have assembled on this Forum some of the best minds on ESMB and probably on Planet Earth. We have never engaged in Bashing and Degrading, nor smut, foul language and sick jokes.

We have premuim level posts, probably some of the best information existing on Earth is being posted here on a day to day basis. The whole thread is pulling up the tone levels of its members with all this theta. According to one of our erstwhile people who post here, we are having a ripple effect on raising the entire tone level on ESMB.

THIS IS ALL FANTASTIC, BEYOND MY WILDEST DREAMS! THE QUESTIONS ARE WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN? and WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE.

I HAD BEEN TOYING WITH THE IDEA THAT I SHOULD JUST LET IT GO, EVEN LAST NIGHT I WAS FEELING THAT WAY. WHEN THE INNOCENT REMARK ABOUT THE MISSION HOLDERS MEETING WAS MADE BY ME AND TED REACTED QUICKLY TO IT, I THOUGHT, WTF, WHO NEEDS THIS! THIS MORNING I FIND POSTS BY TED, ROGER AND VEDA, WHO IS ACTUALLY NEW ON THIS THREAD, ALL 90 PAGES OF IT (SO fFAR)!

I NOW SEE THAT IT WOULD BE A BIG OVERT TO JUST KNOWINGLY GIVE UP ON WHAT WE HAVE ASSEMBLED HERE. TO ALLOW IT TO JUST DISSIPATE, AFTER ASSEMBLING SO MANY FINE MINDS HERE AND ESTABLISHING AN UPSTATE PUBLIC WHO IS READING US, THAT WOULD BE A COLOSSAL WASTE!

I AM DETERMINED TO EITHER CHANGE THE NAME AND THE FORMAT OR TO KEEP DOING MORE OF THE SAME WITH AN IMPROVED FORMAT OR TO BRANCH OUT AND DO MORE, SUCH AS HOLD SPEAKERS FORUMS, MAKE VIDEOS, HOLD SOCIAL MEETINGS OR WHATEVER IS NEEDED AND WANTED. I WOULD LIKE TO THROW IT OPEN TO YOU ALL, BOTH THOSE WHO READ AND POST OR EVEN THOSE WHO JUST LURK AND READ, INCLUDING THOSE PEOPLE WHO NEVER WERE IN SCIENTOLOGY PLEASE GIVE ME INPUT ON WHAT YOU NEED AND WANT AND YOUR OPINIONS ON WHAT IS NEEDED AND WANTED.

Lakey

 

[Ted]

But not (conservatively restrained) rage directed at Hubbard, but always at others.

Hubbard was issuing orders secretly, and others were carrying them out, and the naive faithfull were (sometimes, usually meekly) balking, but balking certain that they weren't "going against Ron."

[...]

That is exactly right. Peter's outrage was never directed toward Hubbard, as I recall.

We, the Mission Holders, were under the mistaken belief that Ron was with us, and we were with Ron. We believed the SO Management was a battery of loose cannon on deck. They were, and still are, very out of touch with public realities. I have no direct perception of scientology since 1989. Nevertheless, I feel confident in making that statement. Evidence abounds across the internet.

You don't get people "into" scientology because of Ron the Great One, The Only One. You get public in because they have the impression you can help them with their difficulties and concerns. And, they have come to place some trust in the people who represent scientology. The amount of force used in registration is inversely proportional to the degree of knowledge about and care for the people being regged.

It doesn't matter how many WHYs are found or how many programs are written to bring new folks in. Even if PR area control was top notch with no bad news regarding scientology, if reps of scientology do not understand the people they propose to help, they will have no people.

SO realities do not cut it on public lines of WISE and Missions. Ron handily set up Div 6 to fail when he wrote degradingly about the Middle Class. Where the hell did he think the money was coming from? It came from people who had jobs, careers, insurance, mortgages, good credit, and inheritances.

And the above was my beef at the Mission Holder's meeting. Management had not a clue. But now I believe it was Ron who did not have a clue and Management was just doing his bidding.

Unfortunately, the Ron implant runs very deep with the SO. It is cemented with physical, mental, and spiritual abuse. Ron had been out of touch since the '50s. Interestingly, it is the '50s tech that many of us most respect. Still, I am finding that, too, dated.

 

[Ted]

[...]

I AM DETERMINED TO EITHER CHANGE THE NAME AND THE FORMAT OR TO KEEP DOING MORE OF THE SAME WITH AN IMPROVED FORMAT OR TO BRANCH OUT AND DO MORE, SUCH AS HOLD SPEAKERS FORUMS, MAKE VIDEOS, HOLD SOCIAL MEETINGS OR WHATEVER IS NEEDED AND WANTED. I WOULD LIKE TO THROW IT OPEN TO YOU ALL, BOTH THOSE WHO READ AND POST OR EVEN THOSE WHO JUST LURK AND READ, INCLUDING THOSE PEOPLE WHO NEVER WERE IN SCIENTOLOGY PLEASE GIVE ME INPUT ON WHAT YOU NEED AND WANT AND YOUR OPINIONS ON WHAT IS NEEDED AND WANTED.

Lakey

Like it or not, in this matter I fall back on a Hubbard advice: The TA is moving. Do nothing.

In other words, just let it play on and play out. Do not change anything.

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Holding back the tides...

This thread passed the 20,000 view mark last night. We have assembled on this Forum some of the best minds on ESMB and probably on Planet Earth. We have never engaged in Bashing and Degrading, nor smut, foul language and sick jokes.

We have premuim level posts, probably some of the best information existing on Earth is being posted here on a day to day basis. The whole thread is pulling up the tone levels of its members with all this theta. According to one of our erstwhile people who post here, we are having a ripple effect on raising the entire tone level on ESMB.

THIS IS ALL FANTASTIC, BEHIND MY WILDEST DREAMS! THE QUESTIONS ARE WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN? and WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE.

I HAD BEEN TOYING WITH THE IDEA THAT I SHOULD JUST LET IT GO, EVEN LAST NIGHT I WAS FEELING THAT WAY. WHEN THE INNOCENT REMARK ABOUT THE MISSION HOLDERS MEETING WAS MADE BY ME AND TED REACTED QUICKLY TO IT, I THOUGHT, WTF, WHO NEEDS THIS! THIS MORNING I FIND POSTS BY TED, ROGER AND VEDA, WHO IS ACTUALLY NEW ON THIS THREAD, ALL 90 PAGES OF IT (SO fFAR)!

I NOW SEE THAT IT WOULD BE A BIG OVERT TO JUST KNOWINGLY GIVE UP ON WHAT WE HAVE ASSEMBLED HERE. TO ALLOW IT TO JUST DISSIPATE, AFTER ASSEMBLING SO MANY FINE MINDS HERE AND ESTABLISHING AN UPSTATE PUBLIC WHO IS READING US, THAT WOULD BE A COLOSSAL WASTE!

...snip...

Lakey

I submit that the movement has developed life and momentum of its own, and that stopping it would be well nigh impossible at this point!

Great work, lakey and all!

I may have to change my nic to EP - End Phenomena.

But WTF :confused2:...as I recall there are an infinity of EPs on the way to OT.

EP

 

[Blue Spirit]

Correct Account

Other sources for the 2nd Mission Holders meeting include Martin Samuels, Bent Corydon, Bill Franks, Larry Brennan, and perhaps Homer Shomer.

There were (although probably deleted by now) some comments by a few former Sea Org Execs on Rathbun's site, comments that recognized that the looting of the Missions occurred with Hubbard's approval.

In fact, Hubbard had been looting the properties and bank accounts of Mission Holders for years - but one at a time, and selectively, and quietly. It was only after Hubbard moved into Southern California, in the mid/late 1970s, that he began looting them two at a time, then - after the first Mission Holders' Meeting where one former Mission Holder, who was suing the 'Church', was invited to speak, Hubbard flipped out and decided it was time to "call in the chits" - and ordered Miscavige to do so.

In December 1979, a federal judge had ordered the release of documents from the 'Snow White' case, and these documents contained writings by Hubbard of which most Scientologists were unaware - and many still are unaware. The Mission Holders - at least some of them, although some were still in denial - were beginning to look at these documents (some of which were reported in the Press) and wonder, "Huh?" Hubbard, who didn't trust the Mission Holders anyway (They knew too much, had too much independence, and had too much money), had his "insatiable lust for power and money" (See 1986 Mayo interview), combine with a giant "missed withhold" on his secret financial, spying and dirty tricks activities of the 1960s and 1970s, and - well, it wasn't pleasant.

Miscavige earned major brownie points with Hubbard by a) Keeping Hubbard away from being legally accountable for his criminal abuses of others and general swindling b) Getting the money to Hubbard - "The Billion Dollar Caper" - mostly from the Missions.

Hubbard, who had told Scientologists that, "Your fees do not go to me," etc., and who was fearful of being identified with Scientology's management, was careful to hide the fact that he was giving the orders. Accounts of Hubbard seem to disappear after 1984.

Arguing about this is probably pointless. It's like arguing with an old G.O. person who was hoodwinked into believing that Hubbard was still in Clearwater (or some other location) in mid 1976, when - in fact - Hubbard had fled secretly to Washington DC. It's a waste of time, and not terribly important in the overall scheme of things.

Hubbard had elaborate shore stories, not only for "wogs," but for Scientologists, including some who thought they were in his "inner circle" (after all, he told his G.O. inner circle that his 2nd wife was a Russian spy named Sara Komkovadamanov [!]) Lying is a Scientology sacrament - really.

Anyway, at a certain point, Hubbard didn't care about the minor details. He wanted to be safe (in hiding), wanted the money (to be relayed to overseas bank accounts mostly), and wanted to finalize the legal trusts that would establish and maintain his various monument-building and LRH fan-club projects.

If anyone cares, check the names listed at the top of this post.

Your post is accurate from all I've been able to deduce from 3 years of reading. I am still suffering the effects financially

and case wise from an intense SP who adopted "Ron's" personality as a complete valence.

A very protective valence for an SP to have BTW.

I recently discovered that although he had some case gain recently, LRH still

has major case unconfronted of a predictable nature.

 

[Blue Spirit]

I Second That

Lakey,

Have you read Peter Greene's bit on the destruction of the Mission Holder N/W?

see it here: http://www.xenu.net/archive/go/legal/pgreene.htm

Rog

Peter Greene's summation is excellent and very sad. He and his wife were really great people. I spoke to him once.

 

[SweetnessandLight]

That is exactly right. Peter's outrage was never directed toward Hubbard, as I recall.

We, the Mission Holders, were under the mistaken belief that Ron was with us, and we were with Ron. We believed the SO Management was a battery of loose cannon on deck. They were, and still are, very out of touch with public realities. I have no direct perception of scientology since 1989. Nevertheless, I feel confident in making that statement. Evidence abounds across the internet.

You don't get people "into" scientology because of Ron the Great One, The Only One. You get public in because they have the impression you can help them with their difficulties and concerns. And, they have come to place some trust in the people who represent scientology. The amount of force used in registration is inversely proportional to the degree of knowledge about and care for the people being regged.

It doesn't matter how many WHYs are found or how many programs are written to bring new folks in. Even if PR area control was top notch with no bad news regarding scientology, if reps of scientology do not understand the people they propose to help, they will have no people.

SO realities do not cut it on public lines of WISE and Missions. Ron handily set up Div 6 to fail when he wrote degradingly about the Middle Class. Where the hell did he think the money was coming from? It came from people who had jobs, careers, insurance, mortgages, good credit, and inheritances.

And the above was my beef at the Mission Holder's meeting. Management had not a clue. But now I believe it was Ron who did not have a clue and Management was just doing his bidding.

Unfortunately, the Ron implant runs very deep with the SO. It is cemented with physical, mental, and spiritual abuse. Ron had been out of touch since the '50s. Interestingly, it is the '50s tech that many of us most respect. Still, I am finding that, too, dated.

Ted, truer words were never spoken! This insult about "don't be pts to the middle class", when it is middle class lifestyles and money which has largely kept the whole corporate fraud operation that is organized Scientology afloat for decades, has bothered me for years. Often it was not people paying money directly for services, a lot of it was paid for by parents and other relatives, borrowed from friends or on credit, etc. How many members of this "church" have gone into debt to go up the bridge? I'll bet the numbers are very high. How many have gone Bankrupt or had their (or someone else's) credit ruined? I'll bet that number is quite large. There is no other "religion" or group that I know of that consistantly operates in this manner.

Ted, Veda, Roger and others, thanks for responding to my request to hear more about the 2nd Mission Holder's Conference. Actually, I am interested in that entire period of Scientology history, because as far as I'm concerned, it was the RUIN of Scientology's ability to be a positive force in the community.

Lakey, it's great that we made 20,000 views so quickly. But don't make this into a numbers game, fun as that is. The quality of the information shared and what's being communicated by us all is what is really important here. Don't you push the river either, in that it is not your responsability to "make" something of this thread. It has it's own life which we all contribute to, just relax a little and enjoy the ride!

Heidrun, so far as I am concerned, the inability to beat the addition to smoking is a form of a death wish, in the classic sense. A wish to come close to death, to skirt it, and beat it, in order to feel more alive. I think smokers need every assistance to stop now, LIKE ANY OTHER ADDICT.

Multiple viewpoints of history are what are needed, to as-is it as fully as possible. Thanks, everyone for sharing.

If a renaming is really needed (which I'm not sure is so), it should have "history" in the title somewhere.

For Pete's sake people, READ BENT'S BOOK if you haven't done so already. Or re-read it, now that you can look and see more info on the Internet, as the case may be.

 

[Blue Spirit]

99% Freed of the Mind Fuck

Re. the question, "Why did Hubbard seem to disappear after 1984?" The answer is, I don't know. Only that it seems that way. One thing is for sure, he wasn't in coma for six years before his death, as was popularly believed in the 'Freezone', by some, for a long time.

But that last year or so becomes vague.

I'm about 99% freed of the mind fuck about Hubbard personally now.

You, Veda have helped a lot with that. So has Mike Goldstein, RogerB, Dart

Smohen, Peter Greene, Dennis Stephens, Alan Walter, Ray and Pan Kemp, John

Galusha, Otto Roos, LRH, Jr., and others, not coming to mind immediately.

 

[Blue Spirit]

POWER

This thread passed the 20,000 view mark last night. We have assembled on this Forum some of the best minds on ESMB and probably on Planet Earth. We have never engaged in Bashing and Degrading, nor smut, foul language and sick jokes.

We have premuim level posts, probably some of the best information existing on Earth is being posted here on a day to day basis. The whole thread is pulling up the tone levels of its members with all this theta. According to one of our erstwhile people who post here, we are having a ripple effect on raising the entire tone level on ESMB.

THIS IS ALL FANTASTIC, BEYOND MY WILDEST DREAMS! THE QUESTIONS ARE WHAT DOES THIS ALL MEAN? and WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE.

I HAD BEEN TOYING WITH THE IDEA THAT I SHOULD JUST LET IT GO, EVEN LAST NIGHT I WAS FEELING THAT WAY. WHEN THE INNOCENT REMARK ABOUT THE MISSION HOLDERS MEETING WAS MADE BY ME AND TED REACTED QUICKLY TO IT, I THOUGHT, WTF, WHO NEEDS THIS! THIS MORNING I FIND POSTS BY TED, ROGER AND VEDA, WHO IS ACTUALLY NEW ON THIS THREAD, ALL 90 PAGES OF IT (SO fFAR)!

I NOW SEE THAT IT WOULD BE A BIG OVERT TO JUST KNOWINGLY GIVE UP ON WHAT WE HAVE ASSEMBLED HERE. TO ALLOW IT TO JUST DISSIPATE, AFTER ASSEMBLING SO MANY FINE MINDS HERE AND ESTABLISHING AN UPSTATE PUBLIC WHO IS READING US, THAT WOULD BE A COLOSSAL WASTE!

I AM DETERMINED TO EITHER CHANGE THE NAME AND THE FORMAT OR TO KEEP DOING MORE OF THE SAME WITH AN IMPROVED FORMAT OR TO BRANCH OUT AND DO MORE, SUCH AS HOLD SPEAKERS FORUMS, MAKE VIDEOS, HOLD SOCIAL MEETINGS OR WHATEVER IS NEEDED AND WANTED. I WOULD LIKE TO THROW IT OPEN TO YOU ALL, BOTH THOSE WHO READ AND POST OR EVEN THOSE WHO JUST LURK AND READ, INCLUDING THOSE PEOPLE WHO NEVER WERE IN SCIENTOLOGY PLEASE GIVE ME INPUT ON WHAT YOU NEED AND WANT AND YOUR OPINIONS ON WHAT IS NEEDED AND WANTED.

Lakey

Lakey, this thread is in POWER, and the formula for Power is "Don't Disconnect".

I recall being in Power once and woke up one morning saying to myself I can't disconnect,

without thinking of the formula directly.