The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[FoTi]

So who's desperate to make post #4000?

Paul

EP

 

[Roland ami]

Greeks

Roland, fine answer on the women's question. I am totally satisfied. On the Greek civilization, they were in their Golden Age from about 300 to 200 B.C.. The Roman Civilization conquered them and annexed them to be part of the Roman Empire. It wasn't until about 230 years later that Jesus was wandering around Judea, also part of the Roman Empire doing his preaching. Two hundred and thirty years is the approximate length of time from when the U.S.A. gained its independence until now. When Jesus was alive Greece did not exist as a separate Civilization, it had been absorbed into the Roman Empire. Much of the Greek culture was adopted along with Greek lands and their citizens but what Jesus experienced in his traveling about Judea was Roman Civilization. Greece was now part of Rome and besides that, people often lived only within a 10 or 20 mile radius their entire lives and Jesus had no real method to get to Greece. I don't know the distance but it has to be at least 500 miles from Judea to Greece, probably closer to 1,000 miles Jesus was never in the Roman Army or Navy and his family was of very modest income level so there was no way he could get to Greece but even if he had made it there, he would have found mainly Roman culture with perhaps lots of Greek accents. It would be similar to California which once belonged to Spain and then for a short time to Mexico. The culture here, 165 years after we took California over is totally United States Culture but there are very strong Spanish and Mexican accents, the architecture, the names of places, a strong presenece of Mexican foods and Mexican music and a lot of Spanish spoken. I believe that in Jesus's time, Greece would be the same, a total Roman culture with tremendous greek overtones. The Great Golden Age of Greece was long gone.

As far as being off topic, pretty much any worthwhile topic is taken up here. Roger had already introduced Jesus and your remarks concerned Jesus so I believe your topic is quite appropriate for our discussion.
Lakey

Well OK then...

OK, the Greek thing is like this.
Alexander the great conquered pretty much everything in about 325BC, and of course as you say his empire dissolved as soon as he did, pretty much. Indeed the Roman empire took it over, and politically, the Greeks were more or less finished at that point.
But *culturally*, things were very different. As a result of his conquests, most cities in the ancient world were colonized by Greeks, and the important people within the cities were very strongly influenced by Greek culture. Greek was used as the lingua franca of the day - all the books of the New Testament for example were written in Greek. The culture of the Roman empire was dominated by the Greeks, even though they did not dominate it politically.
Somewhat recently, a poll of ancient historians (historians of ancient history I mean, not really really old historians) which asked who they thought was the most influential person in history came up with Alexander for exactly this reason. He far and away beat out Jesus!
So when I talk about Greek culture as being the dominant culture of the age, that is what I am meaning.
If Jesus was able to read, it would probably have been Greek that he would have read, along with Hebrew. There is no indication that he could write, except for what is almost certainly an apocryphal story in John.

Nowadays to some degree with have a similar situation - America is politically overwhelmingly dominant, but European and particularly British culture is influential far out of its political importance. How many American Operas have you seen?

Roland

 

[lkwdblds]

Thanks for the kind thoughts!

Lakey, I believe I understand what you are saying, and to me it seems perfectly natural and normal to be feeling as you do currently. I agree with you that I think it is a temporary state, that you have not reached the "ep" of this line of self-examination and learning about the greater world view of COS and it's belief systems. You are still making a transition from someone who not too long ago was a "true believer" in Ron and his works, to someone who is able to look at COS, it's and Ron's history from a different viewpoint, to get a clearer, more truthful and accurate look at it all.

It is to be expected that your viewpoints and feelings will change as you make the transition from "true believer" and loyal dues paying supporter to former Scientologist. This just seems natural and normal to me. Not "pts" at all. I think you're doing great, and am so glad you did not drop this thread, look at the great discussion party it's grown into! A very large tent indeed!

May I say that I agree with you, that I also feel that I still have "ties" to Hubbard, me who probably had less to do with him and his works than anyone else posting on this thread...because he still haunts the lives of several people whom I care about a great deal. I cannot say anything truthfully "critical" about Ron to my friend still in, or he disconnects from me for a time. Like it or lump it, this self imposed restriction on where he may look and what he may think impinges on me as well, and damages our relationship.

I do question Lakey, are you are allowing yourself to go a little pts to your viewpoints of what MAB has posted about this? That is something that you can handle, and I see you doing so in your posted responses.

Rog has shared some thoughts to assist with this, which are useful to all of us in avoiding "traps", or freeing ourselves from same.

Nobody has the right to tell anybody else if you are making this transition in a "right" or "wrong" manner, there is no right or wrong about this journey. It is as individual as each former member's life experiences, authentic personality, hopes and dreams, etc. Each must follow their own path, and blaze their own trail to total freedom from Scientology and COS influence over their minds and their lives. I applaud you and others on your efforts to do so here and elsewhere, and the evidence of your collective and individual progress, which is GREAT!!!

My hope for this thread is that we can all do our best to support and encourage each other while each is finding their way with this journey...(and maybe play a little together and have some fun along the way, too. )

I want to make it clear that every single one of us (Ex or Non) is on a transitional journey of healing, each one of us has our own wounds and disappointments that must be tended to, that's just the process and progress of life...none of is is any higher or lower than another in this respect...one thing I truly HATE about the Scientologist mindset...

I'm not sure that MAB's intention was to attack or try to "make wrong", perhaps he was trying to help, and just worded things in a way that was less than helpful. That's easy enough for all of us to do, especially if we post in a hurry, without a lot of forethought for how our message may be received.

I won't try and evaluate his intention, as he can speak for himself, but what effects you is the way you felt about it, and your feelings are important. I have confidence in you that you are able to handle this in a way that will help further you forward in your personal journey.

DOUBLE POSTING NOT MY FAULT, A COMPUTER GLITCH CAUSED DOUBLE POSTS. PLEASE READ NEXT POST! LAKEY

 

[lkwdblds]

Thanks for the kind thoughts!

Lakey, I believe I understand what you are saying, and to me it seems perfectly natural and normal to be feeling as you do currently. I agree with you that I think it is a temporary state, that you have not reached the "ep" of this line of self-examination and learning about the greater world view of COS and it's belief systems. You are still making a transition from someone who not too long ago was a "true believer" in Ron and his works, to someone who is able to look at COS, it's and Ron's history from a different viewpoint, to get a clearer, more truthful and accurate look at it all.

It is to be expected that your viewpoints and feelings will change as you make the transition from "true believer" and loyal dues paying supporter to former Scientologist. This just seems natural and normal to me. Not "pts" at all. I think you're doing great, and am so glad you did not drop this thread, look at the great discussion party it's grown into! A very large tent indeed!

May I say that I agree with you, that I also feel that I still have "ties" to Hubbard, me who probably had less to do with him and his works than anyone else posting on this thread...because he still haunts the lives of several people whom I care about a great deal. I cannot say anything truthfully "critical" about Ron to my friend still in, or he disconnects from me for a time. Like it or lump it, this self imposed restriction on where he may look and what he may think impinges on me as well, and damages our relationship.

I do question Lakey, are you are allowing yourself to go a little pts to your viewpoints of what MAB has posted about this? That is something that you can handle, and I see you doing so in your posted responses.

Rog has shared some thoughts to assist with this, which are useful to all of us in avoiding "traps", or freeing ourselves from same.

Nobody has the right to tell anybody else if you are making this transition in a "right" or "wrong" manner, there is no right or wrong about this journey. It is as individual as each former member's life experiences, authentic personality, hopes and dreams, etc. Each must follow their own path, and blaze their own trail to total freedom from Scientology and COS influence over their minds and their lives. I applaud you and others on your efforts to do so here and elsewhere, and the evidence of your collective and individual progress, which is GREAT!!!

My hope for this thread is that we can all do our best to support and encourage each other while each is finding their way with this journey...(and maybe play a little together and have some fun along the way, too. )

I want to make it clear that every single one of us (Ex or Non) is on a transitional journey of healing, each one of us has our own wounds and disappointments that must be tended to, that's just the process and progress of life...none of is is any higher or lower than another in this respect...one thing I truly HATE about the Scientologist mindset...

I'm not sure that MAB's intention was to attack or try to "make wrong", perhaps he was trying to help, and just worded things in a way that was less than helpful. That's easy enough for all of us to do, especially if we post in a hurry, without a lot of forethought for how our message may be received.

I won't try and evaluate his intention, as he can speak for himself, but what effects you is the way you felt about it, and your feelings are important. I have confidence in you that you are able to handle this in a way that will help further you forward in your personal journey.

Sweetness - Thanks for the kind thoughts. I go along with what you say pretty well, except for one thing concerning my congition back in 1993. The cognition was that "I AM NOT SUPPOSED TO BE AN E.D., I AM SUPPOSED TO BE A CLOSE ADVISOR TO THE E.D." This cognition had TWO negative connotations. First the "I am supposed to" portion tended to attribute other determinedmess to how I came into existence. Its like something was decided for me at the time I was manufactured or if not that then it indicates that I was implanted at some time to be a back up to an E.D. Secondly is the thing I mentioned to this thread and that was the concept that I had inadvertently postulated or decided that I was not of the calibut to ever successfully hold down an E.D. postition.

THESE THOUGHTS DID NOT JUST COME UP HERE ON ESMB. Almost right away, in 1993 or 1994 at the latest, I began thinking about this, especially the second half of it. I was stuck being the E.D. of my Dad's small construction business and I was afraid that I had locked in my own failure by somehow postulating that I was not E.D. level calibur. SO YOU SEE, SWEETNESS, facing this apparent dilemma has nothing to do with me evolving as regards my attitude towards Hubbard and Scientology by being on ESMB. IT HAD TO DO WITH ME UNINTENTIONALLY HOLDING BACK MY INCOME POTENTIAL BY VIRTUE OF A POSTULATE WHICH I HAD BEEN HOLDING ONTO UNTIL THE SESSION IN 1993.

MAB's ACTIONS IN GIVING UNSOLICITED ADVICE MAB enters the scene in the guise of a kindly friend, freely evaluating for me at will and dispensing advice, labeling my predicament as the dramatizing of a common type of Service Facsimile and recommending various things to read and processes to run to handle this alleged Service Facsimile.

My first reaction is, "Well its nice of him to be concerned but why is he jumping in to evaluate for me because I did not ask for his expertise." Next, I asked myself, "What are his credentials?, Is he a classed auditor and if so, what class? Is he OT III or above, I am OT V so is he supposed to be attempting a handle on me from wherever his level of training and processing is? WHAT ARE MAB'S QUALIFICATIONS TO OFFER THIS HELP? He never states what his qualifications are. Does he know more than me? Why does he want to help me?

I politely responded to him telling him that I appreciated his concern for my welfare but I strongly disagreed with him that I was dramatizing a Service Facsimile. Further, after reading through his complex diagnosis of my case and his recommended actions, nothing which he wrote indicated to me as being correct so I politely thanked him for his help and suggested that he desist in helping me. His response was further evaluation that I was not thinking straight and was refusing help because of my Service Facsimile being in restimulation. NOW THIS SAME SCENE PLAYED OUT 3 TIMES IN A 4 DAY PERIOD, JULY 17 TO JUL 21.

WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? I have basically three choices on what to do:
1. Follow his recommendations
2. Ignore him
3. Tell him to get lost and if he refuses then attack him.
Women must face this dilimma often when approached by unwanted sexual advances! They can go with the guy, ignore him or tell him to get lost and fight him if he refuses to comply.

I almost chose the ignore option but after much soul searching I decided to attack him. One thing about this particular individual, I see him as one who does not readily admit it when he is wrong and he does not show much capacity to change. There is a good chance that he only meant to help and meant me no harm. With all that to factor into the equation of what to do, I decided to attack him so for better or worse that is what I did. I did not ask him for his analysis and I do not seek his help. I believe I really have no problem and have worked out things well in my own way.

I tried to help MAB by giving him a suggestion in that if he wishes to help others, he should use Rogers method of doing it. That method consists of refering the person to some proven technical information and then asking the person some probing questioins so as to get the person to look. That method is going to go a lot further than MAB's approach which is to offer unwanted help by assuming a position of altitude over the person and then evaluating heavily for the person, perhaps invalidating them in the process and then giving them a set of directions to follow. ALSO AS A SIDE COMMENT, MAB USES TOO MANY LARGE WORDS. He goes out of his way to use large words which I think he feels tend to allow more pedantic expression than simpler words. .

So there you have it Sweetness, this is the true reason why I went after MAB. I have nothing against him personally but I want him to stop evaluating for me and giving me unsolicited advice. Being a woman, surely you have experienced unwanted advances from men who will not accept a simple "no" and sometimes women have to take extreme measures to reject an unwanted suitor. It does not mean they do not like the guy as a human being but only that they don't want the guy as their 2D. The same with me and MAB, it doesn't mean I don't like and respect him as an individual but just that I don't want him to give me unsolicited advice and evaluation. There are topics and times when I come to people and seek their advice and I would not rule out seeking advice from MAB at a future time but I just do not want unsolicited advice and evaluation from him. That is the plainest why I can think of to explain my feelings and with that I am going to permanently end cycle on this topic of discussion and move on to something more upbeat!
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Thanks Roland.

Well OK then...

OK, the Greek thing is like this.
Alexander the great conquered pretty much everything in about 325BC, and of course as you say his empire dissolved as soon as he did, pretty much. Indeed the Roman empire took it over, and politically, the Greeks were more or less finished at that point.
But *culturally*, things were very different. As a result of his conquests, most cities in the ancient world were colonized by Greeks, and the important people within the cities were very strongly influenced by Greek culture. Greek was used as the lingua franca of the day - all the books of the New Testament for example were written in Greek. The culture of the Roman empire was dominated by the Greeks, even though they did not dominate it politically.
Somewhat recently, a poll of ancient historians (historians of ancient history I mean, not really really old historians) which asked who they thought was the most influential person in history came up with Alexander for exactly this reason. He far and away beat out Jesus!
So when I talk about Greek culture as being the dominant culture of the age, that is what I am meaning.
If Jesus was able to read, it would probably have been Greek that he would have read, along with Hebrew. There is no indication that he could write, except for what is almost certainly an apocryphal story in John.

Nowadays to some degree with have a similar situation - America is politically overwhelmingly dominant, but European and particularly British culture is influential far out of its political importance. How many American Operas have you seen?

Roland

Thanks Roland, a little earlier, with MAB's help, I realized my comments were in error and made a post to that effect. Even so, I appreciate the added insights you have given us with your own story of how Greek culture permeated through the Roman Empire.

Would you say that there is any parallel with Spanish and Mexican culture permeating so strongly through the Southwest United States. I mean our architecture, the names of our cities and points of interest, our food, our music, our artwork......There is such a presence of Spanish and Mexican culture here in the Southwest and it is a real enhancement and an intrinsic part of our culture. What do you think Roland, is this a valid parallel?
Lakey

 

[Roland ami]

Thanks Roland, a little earlier, with MAB's help, I realized my comments were in error and made a post to that effect. Even so, I appreciate the added insights you have given us with your own story of how Greek culture permeated through the Roman Empire.

Would you say that there is any parallel with Spanish and Mexican culture permeating so strongly through the Southwest United States. I mean our architecture, the names of our cities and points of interest, our food, our music, our artwork......There is such a presence of Spanish and Mexican culture here in the Southwest and it is a real enhancement and an intrinsic part of our culture. What do you think Roland, is this a valid parallel?
Lakey

Hi Lakey,
(What a civilized conversation this is! Such a pleasure!)

Yes, I realized Mark had answered you sometime after I wrote my answer...
But in answer to this question of yours, I'd say no, it's different. Here in the Southwest (I am in Orange County myself) it seems to me that the Mexican culture is the local culture that is more or less submerged under the dominant American one. The dominant culture is happy to take some input from the Mexicans - we eat Mexican from time to time, and the streets tend to be called Spanish names - but that's as far as it goes.
If the Americans who conquered California had learned to speak Spanish, and the Californian government was run in Spanish, and we used Mexican law rather than English law as the basis for the constitution, and you really had to be a bit dark in skin color to get into a good school (oh, sorry, that is true...) then our situation would be more parallel.
All the best

Roland

 

[EP - Ethics Particle]

Have we come to this subject?

Hi Lakey,
(What a civilized conversation this is! Such a pleasure!)

...snip...

If the Americans who conquered California had learned to speak Spanish, and the Californian government was run in Spanish, and we used Mexican law rather than English law as the basis for the constitution, and you really had to be a bit dark in skin color to get into a good school (oh, sorry, that is true...) then our situation would be more parallel.
All the best

Roland

Is it time to discuss language, dialects, etc? :confused2:

English is my native language and few know it better than I. (modest, ain't I?)

Hubbard and his "stuff" sucked me in via the written word, lecture tapes and a few of his videos - my "case" shelled out like dried ears or corn when watching/listening to one of the "Factors of Clearing" videos some 20 years ago.

Talk to me about language...it may just be the stuff of which we are made.

EP

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Hi Lakey,
(What a civilized conversation this is! Such a pleasure!)

Yes, I realized Mark had answered you sometime after I wrote my answer...
But in answer to this question of yours, I'd say no, it's different. Here in the Southwest (I am in Orange County myself) it seems to me that the Mexican culture is the local culture that is more or less submerged under the dominant American one. The dominant culture is happy to take some input from the Mexicans - we eat Mexican from time to time, and the streets tend to be called Spanish names - but that's as far as it goes.
If the Americans who conquered California had learned to speak Spanish, and the Californian government was run in Spanish, and we used Mexican law rather than English law as the basis for the constitution, and you really had to be a bit dark in skin color to get into a good school (oh, sorry, that is true...) then our situation would be more parallel.
All the best

Roland

The California Culture is more that of the people ** especially of the mid 1800s (think Gold Rush** who forsook their homeland and security for a golden dream. Whether they were from China, Iowa, England, Spain, Mexico, or any trade vessel. Today, it is the wetbacks, who have snuck across the border and the Hong Kong and Taiwan exodus, the Viet Namese who fled their homeland as the Viet Nam war was ending, Persians of every stripe who wanted something better for their families.

We, in California, have a "can do" attitude that doesn't shine as brightly anywhere else. It is in the striving for a better life despite obstacles.

You can see it in Silicon Valley or Hollywood. But you can taste it in the Pan American food that is Californian. I've eaten the world over. Generally speaking, whether I am speaking about Korean, Italian, French, Szechuan, Mandarin, Indian, Mexican, Spanish, organic, vegan, vegetarian, hamburgers and fries, Japanese, Viet Namese, Guatemalan, Thai, or Cuban food, it is the best or equal here in California. Bar None. English food is bad anywhere. We have great coffee, great micro brews. Has anyone ever heard of Napa Sonoma and wine? We've even had our share of famous politicians: Nixon, Reagan, Schwarzenegger, and Eastwood to name a few.

I love our multi cultural lingua franca.

I'd rather be a small fish, in the pond that is California, than a big fish in any other place on Earth.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

OMG! OMG!

Haven't been able to look at the thread in 4 days...WOW, you guys are smokin'!

I'll be on vacation until Sunday...gonna take me days and days to catch up...I love it! Been doin' a quick, very brief perusal of the the posts. Whatta bunch of literate, brilliant, irreverent and f-u-n beings yall are. Gawd I love this thread and all yall! So much good stuff to read when I get back!

Aint life grand?

Face

PS: How did I ever get so lucky to find this thread?:confused2:

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Is it time to discuss language, dialects, etc? :confused2:

English is my native language and few know it better than I. (modest, ain't I?)

Hubbard and his "stuff" sucked me in via the written word, lecture tapes and a few of his videos - my "case" shelled out like dried ears or corn when watching/listening to one of the "Factors of Clearing" videos some 20 years ago.

Talk to me about language...it may just be the stuff of which we are made.

EP

her an' me wuz talkin' an' we 'greed you be the besten usin' language. I jes' know the for letter werds.

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

False claims?

I've eaten the world over. Generally speaking, whether I am speaking about Korean, Italian, French, Szechuan, Mandarin, Indian, Mexican, Spanish, organic, vegan, vegetarian, hamburgers and fries, Japanese, Viet Namese, Guatemalan, or Cuban food, it is the best or equal here in California. Bar None.

All right Mister - let's hear some bona fides! I'm a foodie and I want to hear time, place, form and event on these claims made above!!

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Short List

All right Mister - let's hear some bona fides! I'm a foodie and I want to hear time, place, form and event on these claims made above!!

Planet Raw, Santa Monica, CA terrific raw food

http://www.planetraw.com/

Brooklyn Bagel Factory , Los Angeles, CA. best bagels, always fresh. I used to devour them when I was on the briefing course. The factory is on Beverly Blvd near the old ASHO on West Temple

Chef Chu's in Los Altos, CA better Szechuan food than anything I had in China.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/chef-chus-los-altos

Falafel Drive In San Jose, CA best falafels in pita bread sandwiches I've had anywhere. They were featured on Guy Fieri's show, (triple D) Diners, Drive-ins and Dives. There is always a long line out the door. I've been addicted for thirty years. They know me so well, that I can walk up to the counter, order a tri tip roast on rye, and get my large falafel with two hot sauces.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/falafels-drive-in-san-jose

Armadillo Willy's many Nor Cal locations great Tex Mex barbeque

http://www.yelp.com/biz/armadillo-willys-bbq-los-altos-2

Mexican food -- many roach coaches by the side of the road especially in seaside towns. Mariscos fresh and delicious just as good or better than Baja

Pizza My Heart ,Capitola, CA. This little hole in the wall pizza place has a five food counter and no seating. Lines are always out the door any time of day or night. My wife and I would drive an hour to get there just for a slice or two.

http://pizzamyheart.com/Pizza_My_Heart_Home.html

Polar Bear Ice Cream, Santa Cruz, CA. I've eaten ice cream everywhere. This is the best. My favorites are "ollalalaberry and honey" and "where have you bean" - the latter with coffee beans in a mocha ice cream. Served at The Cafe Violette, Capitola, CA

http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/6/765065/restaurant/Santa-Cruz/Cafe-Violette-Capitola

Peet's Coffee across the USA, but founded by Mr. Peet in Berkeley before coffee was the "in" thing.

http://www.peets.com/shop/coffee.asp

Los Gatos Coffee Roasting Co., Los Gatos, CA. best coffee, Cafe Borgia is my favorite espresso drink.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/los-gatos-coffee-roasting-company-los-gatos-2

microbrews - too many to mention. Walk down the street, you'll find one. Sierra Nevada started small, look at them now. Do you remember when Bud was an American company? In San Diego, Green Flash Brewery has my favorite ales bar none.

http://www.greenflashbrew.com/

Phil's Fish Market, Moss landing, CA. great food fresh from the ocean

http://www.philsfishmarket.com/

If you want the best Creme Brulee, I've ever tasted, go to the Cliff House above Ocean Beach on the Great Highway on the coast of San Francisco

The garlic fries at AT&T Park are better than anywhere.

 

[thetanic]

I'm also a Chef Chu's fan, only manage to get there about once a year. Also a Peetnik.

For French, Lulu's in San Francisco is pretty awesome. It's country French, and the fact that it's French can sail right by. I think I ate there half a dozen times before it clicked.

Ti Couz in San Francisco is the best traditional Breton (buckwheat) crêpe place in the bay area (it always has a line), but there's also Crêpes Café in Menlo Park (which never has a line and is almost as good, but with less atmosphere).

Any restaurant by Jesse Cool will have great local sustainable food. She's famous for her gardens. Coffee is brought in an individual French press.

For middle eastern, Dish Dash in Sunnyvale is not only excellent, they are very good at catering to people with food allergies. As a result, when I'm in the area and going out with friends, we tend to wind up here.

The best Mexican food on the peninsula (and I prefer Mexican above all else, so I eat at Mexican restaurants a lot) is Oaxacan Kitchen in Palo Alto. It's always busy, there's almost always a wait, but they also have stands at the farmer's market on Saturday and Sunday. In fact, that's how they started. It's just as good, and less fussy than the sit-down experience. Hmm, I just looked at their pages -- they're now at even more farmer's markets including Los Altos on Thursday afternoon.

I'm sure you've already heard about Chez Panisse in Berkeley. I don't get to go there as often as I'd like, sadly. Still, once every 4-5 years is about what I manage.

My favorite Cuban restaurant in the bay area is Habana Cuba in San Jose. Not super big on Cuban food. It's easy to overdo it on the garlic and be miserable for three days after.

Sadly, I've not found a churrascaria restaurant that I like nearly as much as some of the alternatives I've tried in other cities (e.g. Fogo de Chao in Chicago or Porto Alegre in Pasadena, CA). We've been to Pampas in Palo Alto and Espetus in both San Francisco and San Mateo, but it's just not what I'd hoped in either case.

 

[This is NOT OK !!!!]

OK, I've obviously started something here!

I'm EUS mainly.

But,

House of Nanking - SF. Total dive, amazing. I was in there one time (1995?). Chef/Owner Peter Fang knew me and served crispy, chili sauce shrimp and his eggplant dish. Old guy in beard next to me say's "that's great shrimp" and we have a nice conversation and he leaves. Peter comes up to me and says, "You know who that was? Francis Ford Copola!". I laughed. Guy knows his food.

Chez Panisse - been twice, have one of the cookbooks and made MANY dishes at home.

What's that place up on Skyline Drive in Woodside(?). Old school, but what a view and WHAT a wine list (if you know your Zins)!

Draeger's Grocery (Menlo Park?).

Marche - also Menlo Park? About the best south of SF.

 

[thetanic]

There are a number of Draeger's markets around the bay. A friend calls it "Two Whole Paychecks."

Are you thinking of The Mountain House?

Marché appears to be in Menlo Park. Never been and will now make a point of doing so.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I'm not sure that MAB's intention was to attack or try to "make wrong", perhaps he was trying to help, and just worded things in a way that was less than helpful.

To clarify this point: I never myself made an invalidative reference in my posts.

My purported "offense", such as it is, lay in daring to point out what was a clear instance of self-invalidation in one of Lakey's posts and illustrating how such self-invalidations arise from our own closely held considerations.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Roland ami]

Restaurants

We should add Langer's Deli next to MacArthur park in Los Angeles - the world's best Pastrami Sandwich.
And I'm partial to Dr Babcock's restaurant in Seal Beach - he also owns a very nice unpretentious winery towards La Purisima mission near Solvang.

Roland

 

[Mark A. Baker]

If Jesus was able to read, it would probably have been Greek that he would have read, along with Hebrew. There is no indication that he could write, except for what is almost certainly an apocryphal story in John.

Greek would have been rather doubtful though not absolutely impossible given his rural origins and strong religious proclivities.

If jesus was literate at all then most likely it would have been in aramaic. That was the common language of the day and the one he most likely spoke. He may have known hebrew as a result of religious studies if he had formal education. There is no real evidence that he did. Most unprivileged persons had what little education they had from oral teachings.

Koine greek was a third, but much less likely prospect, given that it was the language of the resident gentiles and those who associated with gentiles. All evidence in the nt is that jesus did not commonly associate with the gentile community, hence there is little reason to suspect he was especially conversant in gentile tongues, much less literate in their languages. Indeed, it is repeatedly remarked in nt texts how radical he was for even having dared to associate freely with hellenized jews, a behavior then considered religiously disrespectful of jewish law & custom.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... and you really had to be a bit dark in skin color to get into a good school (oh, sorry, that is true...) ...

Spoken like an Old Citizen?


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

We should add Langer's Deli next to MacArthur park in Los Angeles - the world's best Pastrami Sandwich.
And I'm partial to Dr Babcock's restaurant in Seal Beach - he also owns a very nice unpretentious winery towards La Purisima mission near Solvang.

Roland

Au Lac, Fountain Valley
Chinese Vietnamese
Raw, Vegan (Vegetarian available by request)


Mark A. Baker