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The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

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Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Hello again, Johnny!

As you can see I am reading your post.

You wrote:

"So here is the process that sprang to mind when I read the Century Dictionary original source meaning of the word power. “Such an absence of external restriction and limitation that it depends only upon the inward determination of the subject whether or not it will act".

1) “Get the idea that right here and right now there is a complete absence of any external restriction or limitation that can prevent you from doing anything you choose to do.”

2) “Get the idea that nothing can limit you.”

3) “Pretend that life is exactly as you wish it to be right now.”

One of my all-time favorite statements of Mr. L Ron Hubbard was, “The greatest pretense is that it isn’t all a pretense”.

(Copyrighted (c) by John Rafanello - on the off chance that the church might want to by the process.)

I feel that the process should be run repetitively, (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3 etc.) until one reaches a state where one feels fabulous!"


Once again, I applaud your enthusiasm-plus and your willingness to lay it all on the line with good intent.

Your process reminds me of a process Yvonne used to do with a group. Raise your right arm up, wave it around, notice no one is stopping you. Same with the left arm, then both arms.

I would get much more traction out of Alan Walter's Clean Slate Process.

Clean Slate Process

Anyone checking this out, you might have to register on the site to have full access, but fear not, no one will bother you.
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Its remarkable how this is all unfolding!

Hello again, Johnny!

As you can see I am reading your post.

You wrote:

"So here is the process that sprang to mind when I read the Century Dictionary original source meaning of the word power. “Such an absence of external restriction and limitation that it depends only upon the inward determination of the subject whether or not it will act".

1) “Get the idea that right here and right now there is a complete absence of any external restriction or limitation that can prevent you from doing anything you choose to do.”

2) “Get the idea that nothing can limit you.”

3) “Pretend that life is exactly as you wish it to be right now.”

One of my all-time favorite statements of Mr. L Ron Hubbard was, “The greatest pretense is that it isn’t all a pretense”.

(Copyrighted (c) by John Rafanello - on the off chance that the church might want to by the process.)

I feel that the process should be run repetitively, (1,2,3,1,2,3,1,2,3 etc.) until one reaches a state where one feels fabulous!"


Once again, I applaud your enthusiasm-plus and your willingness to lay it all on the line with good intent.

Your process reminds me of a process Yvonne used to do with a group. Raise your right arm up, wave it around, notice no one is stopping you. Same with the left arm, then both arms.

I would get much more traction out of Alan Walter's Clean Slate Process.

Clean Slate Process

Anyone checking this out, you might have to register on the site to have full access, but fear not, no one will bother you.

From my personal view, it is amazing to me how this is all unfolding in a logical order. It took me 5 years, doing research, to try and figure LRH out. Face's arrival on this thread enabled me to believe I now had completed my research and I posted my findings, with very good effects, I might add.

I had really become disenchanted with LRH, based on only two of his outpoints:

1. He applied his Supreme Test of a Thetan maxim to us all and to me in particular on the Apollo. I was posted without first being trained to a post I could not possibly do and the post did not even have a Hat Write Up. To top it all off, my Senior and her Senior were dramatizing being little Hitler's and just trashed me from the moment I arrived. After a few weeks, I was removed for "not making it go right" I was falsely accused of embezzling funds from CCLA and then had LRH policy read to me that I was incompetent and insane.

I feel totally justified in pointing out in strong terms that LRH did not make things go right in the last 6 or 7 years of life. It is true and he knows it! He just wasn't big enough to attain the goals he set for himself. He did not "make things go right"!! I would tell him that to his face.

2. The lie which he wrote which forms the basis of KSW #1. All that pieous bullshit, i.e, "I once believed that a group of humans could research and develop workable technology but a third of a century of research has thoroughly disabused me of that concept."....."By actual tabulation, over 100,000 suggestions on developing or improving the technology were made to me and only about 20 had any long term value and none of those 20 were fundatmental or basic!" This may be the biggest lie ever put into print!!!

That statement was false as false could be. Not only was it false to take credit for everything that other people of good will created and then knock the human race in general for not being able to create valid tech and kick out and dead agent the people who created the tech, but he rubbed our noses in this shit by requiring that this statement be the first item on every Scientology Course and that Scientologists read it over and over and attest to it for the rest of their lives. I don't like to be made of fool of and when I find out that my trust in someone was unjustified after putting in over 30 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars, I am going to be pissed and make some comments about the person who pulled off this scam. All of us share being betrayed be him. The good and spritual side of us all was preyed upon by this man and that is an enormous crime because it makes us have a tendency now of being leery to help the next great spiritual leader who comes aong!

Okay, now with these two specific points about LRH being addressed, I also had to admit that much of what he did was valid and of groundbreaking nature and that I, personally, was helped by him as were many thousands of people. This is the dichotomy of L. Ron Hubbard.

Now as soon as all this takes place then suddenly John R. arrives on the scene and extolls more accomplishments and reveals more of the good side of LRH. I first met John on New Years Eve of this year and have seen him four times since then. The first thing one notices is that he oviously has a vey high endowment of free theta or elan vital or soul or whatever you want to call it. If you can not see this immediately, you are dense and unperceptive.

He likes his experiences with LRH and he is claiming vast OT abilities gained through both Scientology and also other technologies which he has studied and participated in since leaving Scientology.

IS SOME POSTULATE OR INTENTION DIRECTING THE APOLLO '73 THREAD?
John has had umpteen years to publish his story. Had he posted it before Face had arrived on this thread, it would have been out sequence for me, I don't know about anyone else. If he had posted or distributed his story before the Apollo '73 thread grew to a large size, say back in January, that would have been way out sequence. IT IS ALMOST AS IF, in my universe, HE HAD TO POST JUST AFTER SOME MAJOR CONCLUSIONS, WHICH I MENTION ABOVE, WERE REACHED ON THE APOLLO THREAD.

The pendulum for and against LRH had just swung way to the against side and then John, pushed by Blue Spirit, chooses our thread to help him launch his new story just at this moment. This starts the pendulum back the other direction since John's story is largely pro LRH. It seems as if a master hand is helping to guide the Apollo thread!
Lakey
 

Ted

Gold Meritorious Patron
Lakey,

LRH was who he was, he did what he did.

He caused things/perceptions. He reflected things/perceptions.

As we all do.

Your perception of LRH is not the total LRH. No one has the total perception of LRH, possibly not even LRH himself.

Having said that, I must add that your perception is a piece of you, as mine is a piece of me. If I say LRH was great, it is only per my perceptions. If I say he was an ass, it is only my perceptions. I am thus both great and an ass as my perceptions and thoughts are an extension of me.

When a being asserts, "Oh, no, I am not an ass!" it is the ass that is not viewed or admired, and the ass that persists. LRH could not admit he was ever wrong. The ass persists for our viewing pleasure.

:yes:
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
That definition of Power is incredible!

Hello again, Johnny!

As you can see I am reading your post.

You wrote:

"So here is the process that sprang to mind when I read the Century Dictionary original source meaning of the word power. “Such an absence of external restriction and limitation that it depends only upon the inward determination of the subject whether or not it will act".

........,snip.

Clean Slate Process

........snip,,,,,,,



Ted, before I start my new post, I would like to comment on your post just above mine which I read. I agree wholehearedly with every word which you say. It totally indicates to me as true and is very well stated. I had never looked at things in quite that matter and it was very helpful for me to read that and I thank your for it!

Now on to commenting on your post before that one. That definition of Power is incredible. I once purchased the Noah Webster Orginal dictionary of "American" Endglish, as opposed to British English.

The most memorable definition was for "physchology"
Psychology - The study of the spirit. {from "psyche" spirit and "ology" study of.

Just constrast that with what you find in today's dictionaries. Mainly complexity after complexity having to do with brain cells, neurons, chemical balances, the brain's interaction with the endocrine glands and God knows what else. When society used the 1826 definition, society was much closer to the truth and people could think straighter but ask almost anyone out on the street or particularly in the Universities and they will tell you that the old definitions is simplistic and that there is no spirit to study. They will tell you that the new definitions are vastly superior., The new definitions preempt the term "psyche". The authorities declare that the psyche doesn't exist but they use the word anyway and redefine it as brain tissue or some silly thing along those lines thereby preventing future accurate usage of the word.

Getting back to the definition for "Power" which Ted gave above, that definition seems to reveal quite a bit about the manner in which the Physical Universe was designed. I believe that the Universe was designed to not offer much resistance to small immediate mundane things which people do. A person wants to wiggle his finger, no problem. A person wants to walk over to the couch and sit down, not much apparent resistance to speak of.

As objectives grow in scope, more resistance appears, for example, a boy wants to climb a tree. a lot more resistance there but still easily accomplished. For people to fly, now that one had tremendous resistance to overcome which took mankind thousands of years. Once manned flight occurred in 1903, a man was put on the Moon by 1969. That really offered resistance but the span of only 66 years between the Wright Brothers and landing on the Moon is incredibly short by somparison.

GRAVITY: I appears that gravity serves as the major means which the physical universe uses to create physcial resistance to our will to act. I believe that gravity was not part and parcel to the Physical Universe at inception but was engineered in later. Gravity helps to provide us with opposition so that we can have a game with obstacles and barriers.

Look at the definition of gravity! the non scientific definition represents seriousness and solemnity while the Scientific definition represents the attraction between bodies. Hubbard had a maxim, "Seriousness equals mass" This in essence seems to give a connection between the two definitons.

The apparency that gravity is an attraction between bodies is basically a pretence. What is acutally happening is space is set up to curve in the presence of massive bodies, in direct proportion to their masses. Objects then traveling in the vicinity of massive bodies follow a "geodesic" or line of least resistance or shortest "curved distance" due to the curvature of the space near the large body. Due to space curving, time, which is directly linked to space, also changes in a heavy gravititational field. Mr. Einstein came on the scene and neatly explained all of this to us, a big step forward for makind, in the area of Physics.

Various thought experiments were visualized by Einstein and others. Two twin brothers synchronize their clocks and one takes off in a space ship moving fast, say 3/4 the speed of light. The brothers' clocks start registering different times during the phase where the rocket ship accelerates. Once cruising speed is reached and the ship flies in a straight line, their clocks are recording time at the same rate again. Now when the space ship reaches its goal perhaps 5 light years away, the ship, going 3/4 the velocity of light must turn around. This has the effect of the entire Universe rotating around the ship. When that ship is turning around at a high speed, every bit of mass in the physical universe is offering gravitational resistance to that ship's attempt to act. To overcome that resistance, tremendous power is required and is supplied by the ship's rocket motors and space and time bend like crazy. When the twin arrives back on Earth, his clock shows that 22 years have passed but on Earth it is now 1,500 years later and his twin brother died centuries ago.
Lakey
 
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RogerB

Crusader
What a Morning!

Boy, what a morning!

I get to my computer late this morning, and the first thing I collide with is my old friend Raffo!

Hey, John! It's been 20 years since we we've seen each others big smiling faces and hugged.:D

I was wondering when you'd surface onto ESMB! Corky mentioned you'd graced the local LA community to join some of the gang for a dinner or two. :happydance:

Not finished reading your missive yet, but had to welcome you before the day gets too long. I've copied it into a word doc for safe keeping and bedside reading . . . it's going to be a keeper!

Looking forward to reading the rest of your story . . .

RogerB
 

EP - Ethics Particle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Just flashed - Wm Cullen Bryant...

From my personal view, it is amazing to me how this is all unfolding in a logical order.

...snip...

It seems as if a master hand is helping to guide the Apollo thread!

Lakey

Vainly the fowler's eye
Might mark thy distant flight to do thee wrong,
As, darkly painted on the crimson sky,
Thy figure floats along.


To a Waterfowl, st. 2 (1815)

He who, from zone to zone,
Guides through the boundless sky thy certain flight,
In the long way that I must tread alone,
Will lead my steps aright.


To a Waterfowl, st. 8 (1818)

Here the free spirit of mankind, at length,
Throws its last fetters off; and who shall place
A limit to the giant's unchained strength,
Or curb his swiftness in the forward race!


The Ages, st. XXXIII (1821)

EP
 

RogerB

Crusader
Lakey,

LRH was who he was, he did what he did.

He caused things/perceptions. He reflected things/perceptions.

As we all do.

Your perception of LRH is not the total LRH. No one has the total perception of LRH, possibly not even LRH himself.

Having said that, I must add that your perception is a piece of you, as mine is a piece of me. If I say LRH was great, it is only per my perceptions. If I say he was an ass, it is only my perceptions. I am thus both great and an ass as my perceptions and thoughts are an extension of me.

When a being asserts, "Oh, no, I am not an ass!" it is the ass that is not viewed or admired, and the ass that persists. LRH could not admit he was ever wrong. The ass persists for our viewing pleasure.

:yes:

Hey Ted, nice post!

That bit above in red is a colossal truth. It is the key to how and why folks get hung up with things! It's the stuff they don't want to experience, don't want to look at, avoid and refuse to view as-is that they get stuck with as it persists!

Of course, it's all the good stuff that they love to experience and continue wanting to yum yum up on, that keeps vanishing on them 'cause they are constantly viewing/experiencing it as-is.

:D:D

Time to learn to practice this trick more effectively, folks! :yes:

R
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
From my personal view, it is amazing to me how this is all unfolding in a logical order. It took me 5 years, doing research, to try and figure LRH out. Face's arrival on this thread enabled me to believe I now had completed my research and I posted my findings, with very good effects, I might add.

I had really become disenchanted with LRH, based on only two of his outpoints:

1. He applied his Supreme Test of a Thetan maxim to us all and to me in particular on the Apollo. I was posted without first being trained to a post I could not possibly do and the post did not even have a Hat Write Up. To top it all off, my Senior and her Senior were dramatizing being little Hitler's and just trashed me from the moment I arrived. After a few weeks, I was removed for "not making it go right" I was falsely accused of embezzling funds from CCLA and then had LRH policy read to me that I was incompetent and insane.

I feel totally justified in pointing out in strong terms that LRH did not make things go right in the last 6 or 7 years of life. It is true and he knows it! He just wasn't big enough to attain the goals he set for himself. He did not "make things go right"!! I would tell him that to his face.

2. The lie which he wrote which forms the basis of KSW #1. All that pieous bullshit, i.e, "I once believed that a group of humans could research and develop workable technology but a third of a century of research has thoroughly disabused me of that concept."....."By actual tabulation, over 100,000 suggestions on developing or improving the technology were made to me and only about 20 had any long term value and none of those 20 were fundatmental or basic!" This may be the biggest lie ever put into print!!!

That statement was false as false could be. Not only was it false to take credit for everything that other people of good will created and then knock the human race in general for not being able to create valid tech and kick out and dead agent the people who created the tech, but he rubbed our noses in this shit by requiring that this statement be the first item on every Scientology Course and that Scientologists read it over and over and attest to it for the rest of their lives. I don't like to be made of fool of and when I find out that my trust in someone was unjustified after putting in over 30 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars, I am going to be pissed and make some comments about the person who pulled off this scam. All of us share being betrayed be him. The good and spritual side of us all was preyed upon by this man and that is an enormous crime because it makes us have a tendency now of being leery to help the next great spiritual leader who comes aong!

Okay, now with these two specific points about LRH being addressed, I also had to admit that much of what he did was valid and of groundbreaking nature and that I, personally, was helped by him as were many thousands of people. This is the dichotomy of L. Ron Hubbard.

Now as soon as all this takes place then suddenly John R. arrives on the scene and extolls more accomplishments and reveals more of the good side of LRH. I first met John on New Years Eve of this year and have seen him four times since then. The first thing one notices is that he oviously has a vey high endowment of free theta or elan vital or soul or whatever you want to call it. If you can not see this immediately, you are dense and unperceptive.

He likes his experiences with LRH and he is claiming vast OT abilities gained through both Scientology and also other technologies which he has studied and participated in since leaving Scientology.

IS SOME POSTULATE OR INTENTION DIRECTING THE APOLLO '73 THREAD?
John has had umpteen years to publish his story. Had he posted it before Face had arrived on this thread, it would have been out sequence for me, I don't know about anyone else. If he had posted or distributed his story before the Apollo '73 thread grew to a large size, say back in January, that would have been way out sequence. IT IS ALMOST AS IF, in my universe, HE HAD TO POST JUST AFTER SOME MAJOR CONCLUSIONS, WHICH I MENTION ABOVE, WERE REACHED ON THE APOLLO THREAD.

The pendulum for and against LRH had just swung way to the against side and then John, pushed by Blue Spirit, chooses our thread to help him launch his new story just at this moment. This starts the pendulum back the other direction since John's story is largely pro LRH. It seems as if a master hand is helping to guide the Apollo thread!
Lakey

Lakey,

Ted’s post re: reflected things/perceptions is excellent and, IMO, very true.:thumbsup:

I’ve never said that my take on El Ron is the Holy Grail—it’s merely what I have to offer to the collaboration of seeking and finding understanding and what makes sense to me, and foots with what I know personally and learn second hand. I have given El Ron props, as I see them, on a number of occasions.

I’m very glad that TMT is here and posting and will read what he has to say. TMT’s post is very long and it will take me time to work through it and digest it all. TMT is “saying a lot” but what I’m interested in is what he has to “say”…his “stuff”, if you will. That TMT was a Class XII and El Ron’s tester is news to me…I’d like to hear more specifics about his take on that.

Personally, my experience with El Ron, and all I have learned and studied since, renders me impervious to pendulum swings re: Hisself. My plumb-bob is dead-stick still so, from time to time, it drifts slightly. So far this is not one of those times.:yes:

Nothing is without direction...it’s the reading and interpreting of our compasses that can get to be a real bitch sometimes.:coolwink:

Face:)
 
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Thank you!

I obtained a partial set of The Century Dictionary around 1980. Some of the volumes copyrighted in 1895, 1896, and 1910. It is a beautiful piece of work. Having found the complete volumes on-line, I have been promoting it for years. The Century Dictionary On-Line Download and use the DjVu plug-in. It makes browsing the dictionary really smooth.

In 2008 I edited a book for a friend. This I wrote in the prologue:

Dictionary Use
For clarity sake, I have taken to defining a few key words throughout the text. I used several different dictionaries, then I focused on exact definitions within those volumes that expressed what I wanted to say. Modern dictionaries aren’t always the best, in my estimation. Though it is nearly one-hundred years since its last printing, I enjoy The Century Dictionary. It’s big; it’s beautiful; it’s comprehensive. Also, it is available for free, on-line. Referring to it facilitates a wonderful, liberal education that won’t cost a person anything but time and attention.

A person could begin, as I have done, by looking up any word that grabs his or her curiosity. If there is a word in the definition that they don’t fully comprehend, they would look that up, too. Over the years, some of the words I chose to delve into were: power, will, individual, spirit, intention, purpose, prosperity, life, liberty, happiness, responsibility, and more.

:thumbsup:

Thanks so much for sharing this resource, Ted. I and my writer friends will put it to good use, thanks Pal! :)
 

lkwdblds

Crusader
Replies to 3 fine posts plus "Lakey Tech"

The last 3 posts, by Ted, Roger and Face respectively are all brilliant and incisive and I learned something from each of them and agree with them totally with no reservations.

That being said, I wanted to explain what I am doing as far a writing down various anecdotes, analyzing things and relating them to this erudite Discussion Panel. I am not taking services from anybody, have not had formal auditing since 1993 and training since 2001 and yet I am as-ising things and making case gains. What I am doing is working for me and seems to have some good 3rd and 4th dynamic repurcussions, just to be cute, I have dubbed it Lakey Tech.

When something happens to me which stirs up charge or disagreement, I don't hold onto it if I understnd it. Somebody comes over here from another thread and lambasts me or others here with viscious 4 letter words and invectives and it just rolls off my back because I totally understand where they are coming from.

It is only if I don't understand something and that thing does not make any sense to me that I tend to hold onto it. Before ESMB, I never had a way to deal with it, except to purchase auditing or perhaps read something in the tech which might explain it. With ESMB, the Message Board format has given me a forum which acts as both an information gathering service and a sounding board with which to debrief to and vent my frustrations at not being able to understand various things.

I have been able to gather information off of this Board by engaging in discourse with extremely bright people and then I withdraw a bit and use this knowledge to solve the misunderstandings which I have. Once I have the misunderstanding diagnosed, I post it on this thread and it gets read and commented on and then all the charge I previously had on the topic is as-ised and vanishes for me. The info is retained in my analytical memory banks and no longer exists in my space except for being neatly filed away in those banks.

I had just about finished this process yesterday, just before TMT announced to me around 6:30 last night through his loyal and trusted companion Blue Spirit that his post was going to be premiered on this thread and on a stand alone thread simultaneiously.

Before receiving Blue's phone call, from TMT's home, I was done. All areas of Scientology, from Hubbard to Miscavige were all neatly filed away in my standard analytical memory banks and I could be read a long list about Scintology and Hubbard and nothing would have read because I have a persistent F/N now on those areas. I cleared out this entire area of reactivity using Lakey Tech in the manner I just described. This works for me, and I am not recommending it for others one way or the other. I know, I have contributed heavily on the 3rd and 4th dynamics by doing what I have done. On this thread and on Roger's new thred and my new thread and I am sure it will also be true of TMT's thread, there is a new civility and intercourse of ideas starting to take place on ESMB. Bashing has been replaced by a sincere effort to interchange ideas and information with one another. We are making a difference on raising the level of thread etiquette!!

We on ESMB and these threads I just mentioned in particular can do a lot of good in helping to straighen out this beautiful and potentially great planet from going down the tubes. We posses the thinkers and the poweful minds to do an awful lot in this regard!! Perhaps TNT will be an agent which may facilitate and expand this potential. Between 7:00 pm and 11:00 PM when his post was released, the Apollo '73 thread had 500 hits and then 500 more by this morning for a total of 1000 in only a half a day!

Now, TMT's coming out party has given me a new came to play, both to read up on his experiences and to see how I can help him in promoting his work on the internet.
Lakey
 

RogerB

Crusader
I think what I now have to post is best here, here on this thread; not on the other flame-war monster.

I've been reading John Raffo's Declaration response to his Committee of Evidence informing them of his decision to not attend and participate in the charade, here: http://www.holysmoke.org/cos/docs/affidavit-john-m-rafanello.txt.

Very interesting reading, and it reminded me of some important technical issues.

I'll post the relevant parts of Raffo's Declaration, and then put the tech points.

John, in part, wrote:
Those were the best times of my life and it is hard to now have to apparently turn away from that.

For always after the events and seminars reached a certain degree of popularity ethics and justice would descend. Always was I ordered to STOP, to cease and desist until I was fully investigated as a possible squirrel, a person trying to put himself ahead of Ron, someone ripping off the orgs, a possible or probable suppressive or at best a dangerous out-tech jerk that needed to be corrected for his own good. And always I would comply and stop what I was doing on the theory that there might truly be something wrong with me or what I was doing, something that even I was not aware of.

Often the investigations and ordered handlings would go on for many months, sometimes for years. Often did I succumb to the idea that there was really something basically wrong with me, that deep down unknown to me, I really was a squirrel and a suppressive.

In following that track of insisting that I do everything in my power to discover I really was bad, I nearly died, mentally and spiritually, and a couple of times physically. But the physical pain was nothing compared to the spiritual torture I created for myself on the apparent continuing invitations to do so.

As in the recent case in Washington DC, one report (or a few I knew nothing about), that alluded to possible outnesses, resulted in the immediate stopping of all the joy and magic that we were creating in the area.

Snipped, and . . . . .

Part of my decision to remove myself from doing any more of the Scientology I love, is based partly on my desire to never again be even a possible source of pain to any of my friends. This of course is one of the things Ron says a suppressive eventually does, he removes himself so he will no longer do harm. Thus some may choose to consider this as evidence that I am in fact suppressive. I however have traveled that road and no longer choose to consider myself suppressive even if others insist that I am.

What this reminded me of is the sequence of the earlier Universes just prior to the Physical Universe.

John, in this part of his Declaration is discussing his most ardent Spiritual Dreams and Aspirations . . . his raison d'etre, his most wanted want to do, be, have.

What he is revealing is the spirit, that Dream and Aspiration and raison d'etre which was at that time crushed by the church even though his action was all undertaken in support of the church.

There is a sequence in the Universes, it is the last four of them including the Physical Universe.

# 13. Your Own and Others' Valuable Creations Universe
# 14. The Killing of Spiritual Dreams and Objects Universe
# 15. The Dead Spirit Universe
# 16. The Physical Universe

It is to be observed that the CofS is killing the spirit of all it touches.

The above four Universes, of course, show a decline of game and of operating success and power. It also shows a sequence of situations and solutions.

The CofS "solution" is to kill off everything it feels is not precisely either aligned with it or which is in "its realm" but not subject to its control. It is producing and enforcing #'s 15 & 16.

And because of it, it will surely decline and lose.

RgerB
 

EP - Ethics Particle

Gold Meritorious Patron
Testing, Testing...

Rog made a post here at 3:28 (EDT) and I can't get it to load! Is the "Apollo" thread filled to capacity? :confused2::nervous::melodramatic:

EP

(OK - posting this broke it free somehow...wierd...)
 
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Nope, it works o.k.

I can see it o.k., and the link. Too much gin in the matrinis??? :p

However, because EeePie is having a problem readin' it, and some people are afraid to click on a link because of malware (viruses, etc.), I am going to post it here. Suck it up, all you TL;DR folks! :p

Here it is*:

"From: wbarwell <[email protected]>
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology,alt.clearing.technology
Subject: Ranfello declaration
Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2006 12:02:14 -0600
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit
X-Complaints-To: [email protected]
Lines: 552
Path: news2.lightlink.com!news.lightlink.com!gail.ripco.com!news.glorb.com!news.astraweb.com!router2.astraweb.com!216.168.1.175.MISMATCH!sn-xt-sjc-15!sn-xt-sjc-09!sn-post-02!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail
Xref: news2.lightlink.com alt.religion.scientology:1902532 alt.clearing.technology:235141

** AFFIDAVIT **

JOHN M. RAFANELLO

2441 Beachwood Drive ~6
Hollywood, California 90028

December 3, 1986


Dear Members of the Committee:

I will not be appearing before you.

The Comm Ev you are now undertaking ~ consider to be a
cruel violation of Ron's intent and Policy. ! also consider
ib to be a living violation of all the basic ideals that
motivated me to be a part of the game called Scientology.

However, I also fully and deeply realize that you who
have initiated this action, and you who co-create it, do so
out of a true sense of duty and love.

I know that you not only consider this to be just and
on policy, but that you consider it to be the safeguarding
of the true path to freedom that all of us seek to follow.

Thus I have no quarrel with what you do. I hold no ill
will, nor will I ever do so.

I respect the choices you have made and the path you
follow. For I would be a fool if I were to challenge
anything you do out of a sense of what is right.

I admire and love all who act within their integrity
and do what they feel they must.

I trust that you will not judge me too harshly for
choosing to do the same.

When Ron was called before what he considered to be an
unjust trial, namely the suit brought against him by his
first son, he chose instead to send his deposition in
writing. blaybe he considered he would not be dealt with


fairly in the courts. Maybe he simply did not choose to
subject himself to the ordeal. Maybe he simply did not wish
to be distracted from the work he was doing. But for
whatever the reason he chose not to appear in person and I
have chosen to do the same.

Some in the court considered that by not attending and
confronting his accusers, he was, in fact, admitting to his
guilt. Possibly some will consider the same of me. But
that then is also their choice.

In Ron's bulletin of 4 February 1960 titled the THEORY
OF RESPONSIBILITY PROCESSING, he stated in paragraph two of
page one,

"The power of choice is still senior to responsibility.
What one does against his will operates as an overt act
against oneself" (Page 24 Tech Vol ~ Iv)

Back in 1979 I called a Comm Ev on myself in an effort
to clear a large number of false reports and accusations
that had been circulated secretly throughout the system by
particular staff members and members of the GO. Confrontin9
those reports and accusations, and the three months of the
Comm Ev cycle, were possibly the most painful experiences of
my life up to that point.

At the time I could not believe the intensity of the
suffering I created for myself, but when I read an excerpt
from Ron's Justice policy, it enabled me to create the
courage necessary to persist with the cycle.

The excerpt stated,

"The personal security of the staff member is so
valuable to him apparently that when i% is undermined (by


false accusations or injustice) he becomes less willing and
less efficient and is the real reason for a PTS condition."

"The only thing which can actually remedy a general
insecure feeling is a renewed faith in justice."

(HCO PL 24 February 1969 JUSTICE, page 185 and 186 of OEC

Vol-o)

In persisting with my Flag Comm Ev I was eventually
cleared of all charges, yet when I went to do my next
services at Flag, the ethics officer would not accept the
results of the Comm Ev. Apparently the fact that it did not
find me guilty was somehow adjudicated as proof that it had
been done wrong.

Thus the need to clear myself started all over again.

After 22 years of co-creating these kinds of

experiences, I have chosen not to create them further.

I am most definitely guilty of a loss of faith in the
Scientology justice system. Thus I have chosen what seems
to be the only true path open to me, to be the sole judge of
my own actions.

ACTIONS I HAVE DONE.

The following actions I freely admit having done.

1) I conducted seminars in Washington DC at the request
of the Snr C/S and accepted pay for having done these
seminars.

I did this without the permission of WISE and with the
knowledge that, in all probability WISE would not allow me


4

to do seminars in an org for pay regardless of the value and
worth to Scientology.

I did the seminars on my own volition because I felt
they would contribute greatly to the individuals who
attended them and to the forward progress of Scientology.

In my estimation and apparently in the estimation of all who
attended, that is exactly what occurred.

Success stories from both immediately after the seminar
and from some time after the seminar are in your files. I
believe they demonstrate that the seminars greatly
contributed to the expansion of Scientology. They resulted
in increased love for LRH, the tech and for life itself.
They motivated people to join staff, purchase services and
better conditions in their lives.

Seminars of this sort I have done for 22 years with
similar results, and for 22 years I have been periodically
accused of outnesses that stopped the seminars. The
accusations came almost exclusively from people who did not
attend the seminars.

2) I gave some one-to-one consulting to some
Scientologists in the field and accepted pay for doing so.

The statments above also apply to that activity.

3) I allowed myself to go to channeling sessions and
listen to a person from another planet knowing that in all
probability, ethics would not allow me to do this and would
restrict, if not deny me further progress in Scientology.
The details of this are in a report that was sent to the HAS
of WISE LA and to Flag. (13 Nov 86)

I also refused to write reports on other Scientologists


who had gone to listen to this being based on the fact that I
was not willing to contribute to the idea that they were
doing something bad or ~rong.

4) I continued in communication and association with a
person who has resigned from the Church, namely Norma Zamit,
based on my love of her and my refusal to condemn her for
the choice she had made. This I also reported in a KR to
Flag which you should have a copy of.

5) I freely allowed myself to love and communicate to
anyone I chose to, based solely on my own counsel,
regardless of whether the Church or anyone else considered
that they ~ere undesirable and should be denied any ARC.

6) I freely allowed myself to give service to anyone,
again solely based on my own judgement of whether I could be
of value to them and deliver a service that was worth far
more than their contribution to me.

7) I allowed myself to lose faith in the ethicalness of
the Scientology ethics and justice system as I experienced
it being practiced over the last 22 years.

I have maintained my love of Ron and the tech but I
have also allowed myself to consider that the system holds
the system as much more valuable than the individual and
would readily cease to love and validate anyone who in any
way disagreed with how things were to be done.

8) I have considered and said that I honestly feel that
the trouble the Church got into is because it promoted for
years, at nearly every event I attended that there are
squirrels and suppressives and bad people who oppose it and
per the axiom on reality that says, "Reality is the


agreed-upon apparency of existence", our promotion has
created and re-created this reality. (Axiom-26 Scn 0-8
page 32)

If these things are now crimes against the churct] then
I am truly no longer a member of this church and maybe I
never was. I guess I was a member of what I thought the
church was rather than what it was in reality.

As corny and as "Old" as the statement is, I feel that
love is the answer. And over the years I have seen love and
caring take a backseat to any idea that someone might
possibly be doing something wrong.

To me, we get peace by loving peacenot by hating war.
We get standard people by loving standard people not by
hating those things we judge to be out-points. We get trust
by trusting not by mis-trusting at the drop of a hat.

Possibly ill reading this some may feel that I am not
facing the potential consequences of my decision not to
attend the Comm Ev. Yet nothing could be further from the
truth. The pure agony and terror that I have felt when I
have envisioned some of the imagined consequences is beyond
the power of words to describe.

For more than 22 years Scientology has been my life.
The misery I feel when I think of losing all that I loved
results in the creation of a depth of suffering I would have
never thought possible.

I fully realize that literally hundreds if not
thousands of fellow Scientologists whom I have deeply loved
and who have come to call me friend will now be required to
cease having anything to do with me or suffer themselves the
threat of the loss of their bridge.


This is truly the hardest decision I have ever made. I
have contemplated it and suffered over it for many years.

Over and over through my years in Scientology I have
seen people whom I considered to be loving, hard working,
dedicated Scientologists turned to misery and despair and
sometimes even to enemies of the Church they sought to give
their whole being to. Over and over it seemed that the
cause was the apparently never ending pain of encountering
injustice and accusations in return for their efforts to
support theta and freedom. The magnitude of pain I have
known in seeing this is nearly impossible to describe.

It seenled unjust beyond belief to me that these things
would continue to occur in the name of keeping Scientology
working. Instead of possible incorrect applications being
knocked out I have seen the vitality and love of the people
knocked out.

It seems now that I can no longer remain a contributor
to this and at the same time retain any sense of dignity and
integrity.

If I am to be punished for the work that brought so
much joy and freedom to so many, if I am to be stopped from
going free because I dared to grant myself the right to
communicate to people I loved that were unacceptable to the
Church, then I guess there is not a path to freedom for me
within the Church.

This realization I have avoided for 22 years. I have
refused to believe it despite evidence that year after year
demonstrated all too clearly that it was true.

How so much wonderfulness got converted to so much pain
is something I can intellectually understand but it is not


somthing I can any longer contribute to.

In my view and apparently in the view of many thousands
who attended my events, I was one of the most valuable
assets the Church had, and yet the choice of management, it
seems, has always been to condemn and waste me and others
like me who dared to become popular.

I had so wanted to use my talents of delighting people
to expand Scientology. Now finally after twenty-two years I
see I must face the fact that this is not possible.

Actually I am just beginning to realize how PTS and
suppressed I have allowed myself to become. When Ron said
in the justice PL that the real reason for a PTS condition
was false accusations and injustice, I never realized the
depth to which that was true.

Actually I did realize it on a number of occasions but
I refused to acknowledge that year after year the
accusations were coming from my Church, from the very people
and the system I had given my life to support.

Now, though it is one of the most unconfrontable truths
I have even encountered, I am beginning to face it.

Also I am beginning to discover how much control of my
life and freedom I gave up to othrs. How much of my own
self worth I allowed to be determined by the Church rather
than by myself and how much I worked to try and change
people who did not want to change in this respect.

In my first decade in Scientology I audited and C/Sed
thousands of hours, supervised the Briefing and Solo
Courses, served as PES and following my Class-VIII course,
served as a key trouble shooting auditor. The wins in these


9

areas were spectacular and I was often called on to solve
cases that had been seemingly unsolvable. Using the methods
that Ron describes in detail in the chapter called
Descriptive Processing in the book the Phoenix lectures, I

~as seemingly able to solve tt~e "impossible" with ease.
Yet
despite all these marvelous wins it continued to be my
seminars and events that were apparently the greatest
contributioD to the greatest number.

To a great degree the seminars and events were
spontaneous and created on the spot using the same methods
Ron described in the chapter in the Phoenix lectures. I
could write pages on the precision and depth of training I
received in the old days and with the old timers, but
suffice to say we learned to think on our feet with all of
the basics at our fingertips.

In previous years thousands would attend my seminars,
events and services. By word of mouth alone they would
flood to the events. It was both surprising to me and a
point of pride.

Scientolo9ists would bring their non-Scientology
parents and friends, people wtlo were afraid of what their
son, daughter or friend had gotten into, and after the event
they would 3o away delighted. It was such a joy to be able
to do that for them.

Other Scientologists would convince antagonistic and
hostile people to come to my event trusting that after they
finished the seminar, they would no longer be hostile to the
Church and the subject. I remember how grateful I was that
they trusted me so and how I worked not to disappoint them
which it seemed I never did. For away these new comers
would walk after a few hours, now convinced that sometiling
they thought was bad was in fact wonderful.


10

Old timers brought other old timers who would have
nothing to do with the Church anymore, field people who were
themselves previously ARC broken, apparently beyond repair,
would bring others who felt the same, and in joy and in that
wonderous spirit of play Ron spoke of we would all return to
the creation of theta and friendship.

Those were the best times of my life and it is hard to
now have to apparently turn away from that.

For always after the events and seminars reached a
certain degree of popularity ethics and justice would
descend. Always was I ordered to STOP, to cease and desist
until I was fully investigated as a possible squirrel, a
person trying to put himself ahead of Ron, someone ripping
off the orgs, a possible or probable suppressire or at best
a dangerous out-tech jerk that needed to be corrected for
his own good. And always I would comply and stop what I was
doing on the theory that there might truly be something
wrong with me or what I was doing, something that even I was
not aware of.

Often the investigations and ordered handlings would go
on for many months, sometimes for years. Often did I
succumb to the idea that there was really something
basically wrong with me, that deep down unknown to me, I
really was a squirrel and a suppressire.

In following that track of insisting that I do
everything in my power to discover I really was bad, I
nearly died, mentally and spiritually, and a couple of times
physically. But the physical pain was nothing compared to
the spiritual torture I created for myself on the apparent
continuing invitations to do so.


11

As in the recent case in Washington DC, one report (or
a few I knew nothing about), that alluded to possible
outnesses, resulted in the immediate stopping of all the joy
and magic that we were creating in the area.

And those who dared to have glorious successes from the
seminars were investigated themselves. People who
previously considered that the seminars were wonderful, were
invited to look carefully to see if there was not, in fact,
something bad or wrong with what had occurred.

I remember being terrified that several people reported
in writing that they had gotten more gains from the seminar
than they had from two intensives of auditing. At least one
person even reported that they got moregains than they did
from several intensives of NOTs. Such reports terrified me.
I carefully removed them lest someone accuse me of diverting
people from the bridge by claiming they got more gains from
my seminars.

Some after they were subjected to continuing
invitations to find something wrong with what I was doing
began to "discover" outnesses they had not seen before.
These people were then ordered to KSW cycles so that they
could increase their "awareness" as to the "dangers" of
"Rafanelloism".

Those who stuck to the belief that they had gotten
wonderous gains found themselves under constant suspicion
and scrutiny by fellow staff and Church members.

On October the 5th the Qual Sec at DC wrote a report on
his observations of my seminars. This was done at the
request of the KOT. (A copy of that report is attached to
the back of this one.)


12

The report stated my seminars were standard from his
viewpoint and he gave me a "clean bill of health"

I don't know if he has received any flack because of
his viewpoint or not, but I do know from letters and comm I
received that at least one staff member and one public
person were "closely watched" with suspicion because they
continued to think so well of what I had done. Also the
Dessem Sec in his KR "cognited" on out points after I came
under investigation by higher officials. I do not mean to
imply this was done unethically. It may have been and it
may have been real clean. Each of us does what we consider
best at any given moment and I am no exception.

I only wish to report that time and time again I
stopped the flow because ~ complied with a justice or ethics
order to do so pending a full investigation.

When those who loved me found out about these
investigations they came forth to help.

In times past I accepted testimonies of success and
support, thousands of them. I sent out surveys approved by
ethics to see if, in their viewpoint, I was out-tech, or in
someway setting myself as source. The responses were
wonderful, but some were frightening to me. The ones that
were frightening were the ones that said they would support
me no matter what, that they would always remain my friend
and would stay in comm with me even if I was declared
suppressire.

This frightened me for I did not want these people to
lose or endanger their bridge to support me.

So I asked that they simply continue to do their bridge
and win and that their love and support would always be with


13

me as I went forth to clear up any mess that I had created
myself into.

I had, by this time, already seen too many loved ones
put into confusion and terror themselves based on the
conflict as to whether to support me and thus endanger their
bridge.

Part of my decision to remove myself from doing any
more of the Scientology I love, is based partly on my desire
to never again be even a possible source of pain to any of
my friends. This of course is one of the things Ron says a
suppressire eventually does, he removes himself so he will
no longer do harm. Thus some may choose to consider this as
evidence that I am in fact suppressire. I however have
traveled that road and no longer choose to consider myself
suppresslye even if others insist that I am.

Over the years I have seen words like, Out-Tech,
Squirrel, SP, Out-ethids, and the like literally turn into
stimulus response words for some. Say them, or imply I
might be one of these things, and looking and evidence to
the contrary went out the window. But then there are also
those who continue to love and continue to work to better
conditions no matter what. And those people will always be
my friends even if it becomes necessary for us to not see
each other.

In a way this latest Comm Ev has already been a great
service to me for it has forced me to confront things and
make a stand I had not been willing to make before.

For years I thought that somehow I could remain in
communication with all the people I loved whether they were
in or out of the Church. Many on both sides of the fence
told me that was a pipe dream and impossible. Maybe they


14

were right on that point. But regardless of any mechanics I
can still continue to love no matter what.

Already my reach is expanding into new areas. Comm
lines that may well enable me to share my inspirations with
millions may yet be possible.

In truth I am no longer sure that membership in the
Church is the ONLY path to total freedom. Certainly the
tech, where it is standardly and freely used as Ron
intended, does and will enable a being to create wonderous
levels of freedom for himself and others. And surely I will
miss not getting to do those upper levels as I had intended.
But at least in my opinion, the enforced agreements that he
cannot reach into certain areas or talkto certain people
will cause him to lose the freedom he gained. Or at least
it did for me.

For years I have been accused of what a GO official
called Rafanelloism. Well maybe it was true and now I can
at last relax and go forth and share Rafanelloism with
anyone who might think it of some value. Maybe one day
millions will choose to win and be entertained by
Rafanelloism and maybe not, but I will at least be freely
who I am
if anybody

--
It's all coming down! It's all coming down!
IT'S ALL COMING DOWN!
- Texas Chainsaw Massacre II

Cheerful Charlie"

*Posted here for the historical value!
 
Grateful, grateful, grateful!!!

John, I hope you will continue to be freely who you are here on this thread with us, too, as in real life. I'm glad you joined us!

The Church of Scientology Organization just squashed, threw out or chased off all of it's best and brightest, most whole souled and spiritually minded people over time. I see this as Ron's case at work, still being furthered by DM in Ron's valence. It's just a recipie for failure in the long run, for a "church".

Reading your COM EV affadavit makes me feel amazed and grateful for the tolerence that I was raised to have for "other practices" from all forms and traditions of Spiritual expression and practice in all cultures. This ability to look for myself has REALLY enriched my life, and I am so very grateful to my Parents and other relatives who encouraged and empowered me to look and experience reality for myself. This is very humbling, when I see what other religious practitioners have gone through on their journey through Life, with their experiences of their "church".

No wonder so many Ex Scientologists become Atheists or Agnostics and Skeptics. God bless us, everyone! :happydance:
 

RogerB

Crusader
Yes, I had strife getting in and out on teh thread for a while too, EP.

And I did not get to discussing another tech point revealed in Raffo's Declaration.

I remember Raffo from St. Hill . . . though we did not talk much nor spend any real amount of time together, none-the-less he impressed and is memorable.

I next ran into Raffo at FSO. maybe 1980-81. He was doing the Eth Office dance, and being spun around by all the bullshit.

It was here that I was caused to recall the LRH HCOB on the "Technical Breakthrough of 1973" (hope my memory got the title correct here) It's the one that discusses the cause of psychosis, and reveals it to be wrong indications and the fact that they give a person an wrongly designated problem by causing the person to try and solve something that doesn't need solving and thus can't be "solved" It's also the why behind introspection.

I recalled that HCOB and referred Raffo to it. And I remember it blowing his Zorch. And I remember him restoring to his truth by its use.

And this part of John's Declaration speaks of this effect of wrong indications:
. . . And always I would comply and stop what I was doing on the theory that there might truly be something wrong with me or what I was doing, something that even I was not aware of.

Often the investigations and ordered handlings would go on for many months, sometimes for years. Often did I succumb to the idea that there was really something basically wrong with me, that deep down unknown to me, I really was a squirrel and a suppressive.

In following that track of insisting that I do everything in my power to discover I really was bad, I nearly died, mentally and spiritually, and a couple of times physically. But the physical pain was nothing compared to the spiritual torture I created for myself on the apparent continuing invitations to do so.

John makes mention that LRH states that the effort to restrain oneself is the reason an SP is in the condition he's is.

I see this as erroneous, at best incomplete, but erroneous. An SP is one who is failing to restrain himself . . . hence the disasters the SP produces.

It's the good guys that cave themselves in and who restrain themselves at the thought that they have or might harm!

Hubbard got it totally in reverse in my judgment.

This phenomena of the fact that we are basically good and ethical is that we do restrain ourselves when we think we might harm by our actions . . . . and this is the mechanism and phenomena that is used by those with evil intent who try to cave good guys in with false accusations!

John reveals this when he describes what he went through, the doubt of self, the restraint of self.

I hope many here can benefit from the lesson in all this above, either for themselves or by its use with their friends.

RogerB
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Out of the Blue comes TMT

It is my personal experience...as I have previously written about on this thread…and others credible have written about extensively in many places, that El Ron was “given”, “borrowed” or “stole” “Tech” by others that Hisself bastardized and—whether intentionally or inadvertently—booby trapped and issued as Hisself’s own.

As I said, I’m very glad that he is here. I am hopeful that at some point—and I am very patient—TMT will share with us some particulars re: the “Tech” he tested directly under El Ron and why he still, apparently, considers El Ron as actual and single “Source”.

I know that TMT is a gifted, dazzling persona and has many feathers in his cap. Hopefully, in time, he will enter into direct dialogue with Us. I, for one, wouldn’t want to be sittin’ on the ant pile he’s stirred up or the pedestal all the roses are being thrown at…but, then again, my pendulum has sung as many swings as it can “swang” and the string to the bob is broken.

I admire Blue’s and TMT’s guts to “throw it up on the ESMB wall to see what sticks”.:yes:

So, as Vin (McQueen) said to Chris (Brynner) in “The Magnificent Seven”…or anyone one that’s ever Rodeod…”Let ‘er buck!”:coolwink:

Face:)
 

afaceinthecrowd

Gold Meritorious Patron
Yes, I had strife getting in and out on teh thread for a while too, EP.

And I did not get to discussing another tech point revealed in Raffo's Declaration.

I remember Raffo from St. Hill . . . though we did not talk much nor spend any real amount of time together, none-the-less he impressed and is memorable.

I next ran into Raffo at FSO. maybe 1980-81. He was doing the Eth Office dance, and being spun around by all the bullshit.

It was here that I was caused to recall the LRH HCOB on the "Technical Breakthrough of 1973" (hope my memory got the title correct here) It's the one that discusses the cause of psychosis, and reveals it to be wrong indications and the fact that they give a person an wrongly designated problem by causing the person to try and solve something that doesn't need solving and thus can't be "solved" It's also the why behind introspection.

I recalled that HCOB and referred Raffo to it. And I remember it blowing his Zorch. And I remember him restoring to his truth by its use.

And this part of John's Declaration speaks of this effect of wrong indications:


John makes mention that LRH states that the effort to restrain oneself is the reason an SP is in the condition he's is.

I see this as erroneous, at best incomplete, but erroneous. An SP is one who is failing to restrain himself . . . hence the disasters the SP produces.

It's the good guys that cave themselves in and who restrain themselves at the thought that they have or might harm!

Hubbard got it totally in reverse in my judgment.

This phenomena of the fact that we are basically good and ethical is that we do restrain ourselves when we think we might harm by our actions . . . . and this is the mechanism and phenomena that is used by those with evil intent who try to cave good guys in with false accusations!

John reveals this when he describes what he went through, the doubt of self, the restraint of self.

I hope many here can benefit from the lesson in all this above, either for themselves or by its use with their friends.

RogerB

Damn, Rog...that's f'n good stuff...damn!!!:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Face:)
 
Lakey,

LRH was who he was, he did what he did.

He caused things/perceptions. He reflected things/perceptions.

As we all do.

Your perception of LRH is not the total LRH. No one has the total perception of LRH, possibly not even LRH himself.

Having said that, I must add that your perception is a piece of you, as mine is a piece of me. If I say LRH was great, it is only per my perceptions. If I say he was an ass, it is only my perceptions. I am thus both great and an ass as my perceptions and thoughts are an extension of me.

When a being asserts, "Oh, no, I am not an ass!" it is the ass that is not viewed or admired, and the ass that persists. LRH could not admit he was ever wrong. The ass persists for our viewing pleasure.

:yes:


Great post. It always comes down to ONE'S OWN considerations and how they frame "your own universe". :coolwink:

As to judging dead men, there is no point. As with anyone, alive or dead, you can never know everything there is to know about them that would be pertinent. Moreover, they are dead. :yes:

An EXCELLENT piece of fiction (sci-fi) which elegantly illustrates this is Orson Scott Card's "Speaker for the Dead". It is the sequel to his book "Ender's Game" which is also a good read. :)


Mark A. Baker
 
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