Mick Wenlock ... Points in common, if not agreed

[Mike Laws]

Mick,

Thanks for your response to my other post, it has since been closed so I can't comment there.

I have a serious question for you, and genuine, not trying to stir anything up.

Lets assume that OSA's current line on me that I left the SO a wealthy and rich man and never suffered an ounce of hardship after leaving may not be accurate.

We both had some hard times after leaving, yours absolutely much more difficult than mine because your children were with you and the additional challenging circumstances. Mine were with my ex and I was primarily required to come up with money, I couldn't have done what I did with your daily and hourly familial responsiblities.

Also, because I was much younger than you, I may have had youthful resiliance and niavity, I didn't like it, but it wasn't all that bad, somehow made it feel like an adventure, though after a while it felt like an adventure I couldn't control and get out of.

It took me most of 10 years to start getting my head straight and get away from the delusion of my Scio and SO "supremacy". It then took me 5 years hard work and single minded focus to build up a certain level of stability, career, education, relationsihps, capital, etc. It was only after this I started doing OK or well financially.

Personally I am doing OK, though have plenty of warts, particularily when it comes to close relationships. I am much better than I was, not yet where I want to be.

I have been putting together a formula, it is almost mathamatical on business and finance, on how to create financial success mid life when you start from nothing. Nothing earth shaking, and most of it avaliable in other books, just a little more applied and practical to mid life start over circumstances.

What I feel pretty lost on is identifying how to get over the mental screw job that exists when we leave. I was, from my current perspective, prety mentally disabled for 10 years after leaving, reaching a positive tipping point, and still working on it.

To me a 10-15 year recovery period is unacceptable.

People that have strong support groups, family, etc. seem to do better.

What are your thoughts and observations on this?

 

[me myself & i]

Mick,

Thanks for your response to my other post, it has since been closed so I can't comment there.

I have a serious question for you, and genuine, not trying to stir anything up.

Lets assume that OSA's current line on me that I left the SO a wealthy and rich man and never suffered an ounce of hardship after leaving may not be accurate.

We both had some hard times after leaving, yours absolutely much more difficult than mine because your children were with you and the additional challenging circumstances. Mine were with my ex and I was primarily required to come up with money, I couldn't have done what I did with your daily and hourly familial responsiblities.

Also, because I was much younger than you, I may have had youthful resiliance and niavity, I didn't like it, but it wasn't all that bad, somehow made it feel like an adventure, though after a while it felt like an adventure I couldn't control and get out of.

It took me most of 10 years to start getting my head straight and get away from the delusion of my Scio and SO "supremacy". It then took me 5 years hard work and single minded focus to build up a certain level of stability, career, education, relationsihps, capital, etc. It was only after this I started doing OK or well financially.

Personally I am doing OK, though have plenty of warts, particularily when it comes to close relationships. I am much better than I was, not yet where I want to be.

I have been putting together a formula, it is almost mathamatical on business and finance, on how to create financial success mid life when you start from nothing. Nothing earth shaking, and most of it avaliable in other books, just a little more applied and practical to mid life start over circumstances.

What I feel pretty lost on is identifying how to get over the mental screw job that exists when we leave. I was, from my current perspective, prety mentally disabled for 10 years after leaving, reaching a positive tipping point, and still working on it.

To me a 10-15 year recovery period is unacceptable.

People that have strong support groups, family, etc. seem to do better.

What are your thoughts and observations on this?

Bump. After only 58 minutes. That may be a record bump of sorts.

 

[Outethicsofficer]

Love your post Mike, I nearly started a thread this morning along similar lines decided against it and scraped what I'd written;

It took me most of 10 years to start getting my head straight and get away from the delusion of my Scio and SO "supremacy".

The line above is to me most insightful, I am finding now since being out, that one factor was and is the most insidious and damaging of all, you know the stuff Hubbard wrote for the most part would just be words on a page & should have no more to them than that. However the arrogant "supremacy" thrust washed across us all. The ideas expressed in KSW1 and other PLs of that ilk once accepted preclude any other views, when in fact there are other views and there are principles in life one cannot escape, no matter how well someone is deluded into thinking otherwise.

I am seeing this SO "supremacy" thing break down in my daughter as she is coming to realise certain things. It has taken time and support, this is not an easy thing. There is more to write here on this the idea is there about what I want to say but you know how it can be some days the words don't quite come in!

Probably the thing is; the arrogancy of that "supremacy" thing. That sums it up because I feel if you can't break through that then not much else is possible in terms of real repair.



James

 

[Gadfly]

(snip)

What I feel pretty lost on is identifying how to get over the mental screw job that exists when we leave. I was, from my current perspective, prety mentally disabled for 10 years after leaving, reaching a positive tipping point, and still working on it.

To me a 10-15 year recovery period is unacceptable.

People that have strong support groups, family, etc. seem to do better.

What are your thoughts and observations on this?

My suggestion would be to spend time routinely digging up the TRUTH about Hubbard and the behavior of the Church, as a way to untangle the many "false beliefs and attitudes" that you may have unknowingly accepted while a Church member. You can find MUCH on the Internet.

As I see it, any and all "mental disabling" is due to the various Scientologically-slanted ideas that you have allowed yourself to accept and think with. You may need to spot and get rid of a few that do you no good.

Just saying. That approach has helped myself and some others.

+

 

[Mike Laws]

James,

Glad your daughter is breaking out of it. What are you observing with your daughter's re-awaikening?

Gad,

I think it is deeper than reading stuff on the web. Even when I was in I knew of LRH's multiple wives, the affirmations, etc. This almost made the old man more real to me as he was imperfect "trying to make the world a better place based on his life experience.

I don't know how much is based on writings, lies or culture, I don't know where the problems lie.

Part of it I think is being able to assign cause. When I was out of the SO and still active in the group things like my being clear and in non interferance zone, or I wasn't applying tech properly, or I was out ethics, or whatever when anything went wrong were easy scape goats and justifications ...

But, at least for me, there were deeper issues, like feelings of poor personal worth, or that I had betrayed the SO, things like that that stopped me feeling like I deserved to do well in life. There are also real thought benders where you assign causation to things that you can't do anything about.

 

[Gadfly]

James,

Glad your daughter is breaking out of it. What are you observing with your daughter's re-awaikening?

Gad,

I think it is deeper than reading stuff on the web. Even when I was in I knew of LRH's multiple wives, the affirmations, etc. This almost made the old man more real to me as he was imperfect "trying to make the world a better place based on his life experience.

I don't know how much is based on writings, lies or culture, I don't know where the problems lie.

Part of it I think is being able to assign cause. When I was out of the SO and still active in the group things like my being clear and in non interferance zone, or I wasn't applying tech properly, or I was out ethics, or whatever when anything went wrong were easy scape goats and justifications ...

But, at least for me, there were deeper issues, like feelings of poor personal worth, or that I had betrayed the SO, things like that that stopped me feeling like I deserved to do well in life. There are also real thought benders where you assign causation to things that you can't do anything about.

If it helps any, my daughter was born and raised in the Sea Org. She got out when 18 or 19 years old. She is now 28 years old. She was weaned on the crap. She went through the Cadet Org at Flag from the time she was born, up until she "joined the Sea Org" at age 14. Her entire first 17 years of her life were in the direct control of one of the most insidious mind-control schemes known to Man. This is true whether some part of Hubbard's paradigm may be "right" or not. Regardess, involvement with the Church of Scientology functions ALWAYS on some deep level of severe indoctrination & mind control. And, this is much worse for any poor child who had no choice, and who had NO STABILITY of having grown up outside the mind-numbing framework of the Church of Scientology. Luckily, over the years, I have had MANY long conversations with my daughter about these things, and she has pretty much allowed herself to let so many of the crazy notions dissolve and vanish. We have been in great communcation for many years now.

Of course, at first, after she left, she stayed away from me for awhile, as I was already declared. But after a few years, she questioned it all, got in communication with me, hid her communication with me from her many Scientology friends, and lived her life. Naturally, the Church bozos found out eventually, she refused to ever talk to them, spotting them as the incredible dolts that they are, and she also got declared. But by then, the action had absolutely no meaning to her. She was free of their shit.

Naturally, it hurt her deeply as her various friends "disconnected from her", but she just finally said, "fuck them, if that is what a friend is to them, well I need to find a better version of friends". She has since made many new friends outside anything related to Scientology, and does maintain a few "covert friendships" with a few still related in some ways to the C of S, that remain under the Church's often lousy radar.

One of the hardest things for her to do was let go of the idea that "I must be a DB because Ron says so about all people who leave the Sea Org". It is one of those insane ideas, that if you accept it, it always keeps you thinking VERY poorly of yourself. She told me that when she was trying to route out (both times), that this crazy LRH issue was always shoved in her face.

YOU ARE A DEGRADED BEING (DB) IF YOU LEAVE THE SEA ORG!

Sadly, she believed it for awhile, and it gnawed at her soul. The hooks of the Scientology mind-control had been set deep in her little fragile mind. I am so glad that I was able to be there for her, to help unattach the various hooks.

She had to divorce herself from the notions that first, Scientology REALLY WAS the protector of some wondrous technology that could free all Mankind, second, that Scientology was actually "clearing the planet" in any meaningful sense, third, that "Ron is always right", and lastly, that she was some horrible person for choosing to no longer support that (nutty) group.

But then, if you choose to buy into and accept the ideas that Scientology does somehow possess the "only true path to Salvation", well then it seems to me that you will keep yourself somewhat locked in a prison of ideas that enables and empowers such nasty ideas about self-worth.

I wish you luck in continuing to unravel the mess that involvement with some aspect of Scientology can cause for you.

+

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Hi Mike

Intriguing questions - don't have time to really answer tonight but am looking forward to tackling this tomorrow.

 

[Outethicsofficer]

Thanks Mike,
Interesting thread you started here, many things are opening up so I will keep track with this and pop in from time to time, I agree about the 'wakening up', that adequately states how I feel.
James

 

[olska]

Mike, you didn't ask me, but I'm going to offer something that helped me get through a "crisis" in my mid life that had nothing to do with scientology. This is simple but was life changing, and was the beginning of my road to "recovery" and to building a meaningful life:

Take some time undisturbed.

Make two columns on a piece of paper.

One column for "things I can control" and
one column for "things that are beyond my control."

Write whatever comes up, in one or the other column. Write until you're done -- you'll know.

Be brutally honest with yourself:

I mean, for example, that yes you can get yourself out of bed in the morning to go job hunting, possibly with help of a wake-up call or an alarm clock...

... but can you really control other people's thoughts? bring about peace in the Middle East? well ... I would tend to doubt that. I would also tend to doubt that you can extinguish raging apartment house fires from a distance with only your thoughts or "postulates" ... but who knows ...

If you're like most people, you will find there are some things that are not within your ability to control that you'd like to control, that you wish you could control, that you feel you should be able to control, ought to be able to control, feel guilty because you can't control, blah blah blah.

But recognizing the difference between those things you CAN and CANNOT control is an amazing step toward freedom and toward letting go of all those "shoulda, coulda, woulda, oughta, shame-on-ya, if-only-I-hadda's" that tend to stick us in sorrow and regret.

And letting go of all those things you really honestly cannot control sets you free to concentrate your energy and attention on those things that you can actually do something about, even if in the beginning it's not much.

If you're really honest, you'll most likely find that most of the things you encounter in life (other people's thoughts and actions, natural disasters, traffic, bank failures, etc etc etc) are not within your control.

What a relief!

 

[Gadfly]

Or, said poetically as part of the Serenity Prayer:

God grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and wisdom to know the difference.

--Reinhold Niebuhr

+

 

[olska]

Or, said poetically as part of the Serenity Prayer:

God grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and wisdom to know the difference.

--Reinhold Niebuhr

+

Eggs actually.

 

[Emma]

Mike, you didn't ask me, but I'm going to offer something that helped me get through a "crisis" in my mid life that had nothing to do with scientology. This is simple but was life changing, and was the beginning of my road to "recovery" and to building a meaningful life:

Take some time undisturbed.

Make two columns on a piece of paper.

One column for "things I can control" and
one column for "things that are beyond my control."

Write whatever comes up, in one or the other column. Write until you're done -- you'll know.

Be brutally honest with yourself:

I mean, for example, that yes you can get yourself out of bed in the morning to go job hunting, possibly with help of a wake-up call or an alarm clock...

... but can you really control other people's thoughts? bring about peace in the Middle East? well ... I would tend to doubt that. I would also tend to doubt that you can extinguish raging apartment house fires from a distance with only your thoughts or "postulates" ... but who knows ...

If you're like most people, you will find there are some things that are not within your ability to control that you'd like to control, that you wish you could control, that you feel you should be able to control, ought to be able to control, feel guilty because you can't control, blah blah blah.

But recognizing the difference between those things you CAN and CANNOT control is an amazing step toward freedom and toward letting go of all those "shoulda, coulda, woulda, oughta, shame-on-ya, if-only-I-hadda's" that tend to stick us in sorrow and regret.

And letting go of all those things you really honestly cannot control sets you free to concentrate your energy and attention on those things that you can actually do something about, even if in the beginning it's not much.

If you're really honest, you'll most likely find that most of the things you encounter in life (other people's thoughts and actions, natural disasters, traffic, bank failures, etc etc etc) are not within your control.

What a relief!

I like this. I'm gunna do this exercise.

 

[Mick Wenlock]

Mick,

Thanks for your response to my other post, it has since been closed so I can't comment there.

I have a serious question for you, and genuine, not trying to stir anything up.

Got it!

Lets assume that OSA's current line on me that I left the SO a wealthy and rich man and never suffered an ounce of hardship after leaving may not be accurate.

We both had some hard times after leaving, yours absolutely much more difficult than mine because your children were with you and the additional challenging circumstances. Mine were with my ex and I was primarily required to come up with money, I couldn't have done what I did with your daily and hourly familial responsiblities.

Thank you, but I think you sell yourself a little short. Not sure how long you were in the SO and your age when you got out.

Also, because I was much younger than you, I may have had youthful resiliance and niavity, I didn't like it, but it wasn't all that bad, somehow made it feel like an adventure, though after a while it felt like an adventure I couldn't control and get out of.

It took me most of 10 years to start getting my head straight and get away from the delusion of my Scio and SO "supremacy". It then took me 5 years hard work and single minded focus to build up a certain level of stability, career, education, relationsihps, capital, etc. It was only after this I started doing OK or well financially.

Now this is where we diverge a little though I think 10 years is neither too long nor too short to be honest.

But for me the important thing was not whether I was making OK money the hardest thing I had to do was to decide what I wanted to accomplish. What did I wish to do in this life of mine? And, just as important - what did my wife want to do and how could we make that happen?

Personally I am doing OK, though have plenty of warts, particularily when it comes to close relationships. I am much better than I was, not yet where I want to be.

When you are saying "OK" what do you mean? Are you happy in your life? Doing things that, by and large, you like to do? I sometimes think that XSO in particular (may be true for all exes) tend to hedge our statements like you just did "not where I want to be" "of course I could be doing better" . More on this point a little later

I have been putting together a formula, it is almost mathamatical on business and finance, on how to create financial success mid life when you start from nothing. Nothing earth shaking, and most of it avaliable in other books, just a little more applied and practical to mid life start over circumstances.

I wish you all the best with that - that could really help some people.

What I feel pretty lost on is identifying how to get over the mental screw job that exists when we leave. I was, from my current perspective, prety mentally disabled for 10 years after leaving, reaching a positive tipping point, and still working on it.

To me a 10-15 year recovery period is unacceptable.

People that have strong support groups, family, etc. seem to do better.

What are your thoughts and observations on this?

whoa dude. Tough one.

Do we have a month or two... LOL

After talking with a lot of XSO and running the list for 5 years and based on my own experience...

1) We never totally 'heal'. We had part of our life amputated (and yes we enthusiastically participated) and it does not grow back. We do however , improve

2) for SO member s- we spent our time in the SO consciously and willingly indoctrinating ourselves. 24/7. If we were in the SO for years then it doesnt come undone in months.

3) what we appear to lack, especially in the first couple of years of being out are tools to recognize problems and tools to ameliorate or deal with them.

What I mean by all that is that we were changed by the experience (of course) and that because we participated and volunteered for the programming/brainwashing/conditioning whatever we wish to call it, it became part of us. Most people try to resist brainwashing which is why they get over it. Not us!

In talking to many XSO I have found some similarities - physical reactions to indoctrination, like, for example, getting angry when disagreed with, getting angry when reading 'attacks' on us, a feeling of fear when reading an 'attack' on us.

Lack of stamina - I have heard from a couple of well versed medical professionals who are XSO that adrenal exhaustion is probably the cause of this - after years of very high level stress, poor diet and lack of sleep most have problems readjusting. Of course when we first get out we are racing around trying to put things back together - what is needed is actually a time to learn to readjust and to take care of ourselves,

Nightmares. I have found very few who did not have them (I am one) but the vast majority do and for years.

Readjusting to life where we actually have free time and how to use that to serve ourselves and our goals without feeling guilty. Doing things without having to justify doing them.

There's more but this is all I have time for at the moment.

Seriously Mike we will be handling "stuff" until we shuffle off this mortal coil. All we can do, I think is be willing to listen to and help a fellow "sufferer".

One of the reasons (among many) that I am so down on Marty and Mike is not because I do not like them as themselves - I really do like Mike and I do not dislike Marty I don't know him well enough - it is because I think what they are doing is extending the recovery time. They are not helping people heal but merely prolonging the misery.

Interested in your response - and anyone elses of course

 

[Gadfly]

(snippage)

One of the reasons (among many) that I am so down on Marty and Mike is not because I do not like them as themselves - I really do like Mike and I do not dislike Marty I don't know him well enough - it is because I think what they are doing is extending the recovery time. They are not helping people heal but merely prolonging the misery.

THAT! ^^^^^

+

 

[Mike Laws]

Mike, you didn't ask me, but I'm going to offer something that helped me get through a "crisis" in my mid life that had nothing to do with scientology. This is simple but was life changing, and was the beginning of my road to "recovery" and to building a meaningful life:

Take some time undisturbed.

Make two columns on a piece of paper.

One column for "things I can control" and
one column for "things that are beyond my control."

Write whatever comes up, in one or the other column. Write until you're done -- you'll know.

Be brutally honest with yourself:

I mean, for example, that yes you can get yourself out of bed in the morning to go job hunting, possibly with help of a wake-up call or an alarm clock...

... but can you really control other people's thoughts? bring about peace in the Middle East? well ... I would tend to doubt that. I would also tend to doubt that you can extinguish raging apartment house fires from a distance with only your thoughts or "postulates" ... but who knows ...

If you're like most people, you will find there are some things that are not within your ability to control that you'd like to control, that you wish you could control, that you feel you should be able to control, ought to be able to control, feel guilty because you can't control, blah blah blah.

But recognizing the difference between those things you CAN and CANNOT control is an amazing step toward freedom and toward letting go of all those "shoulda, coulda, woulda, oughta, shame-on-ya, if-only-I-hadda's" that tend to stick us in sorrow and regret.

And letting go of all those things you really honestly cannot control sets you free to concentrate your energy and attention on those things that you can actually do something about, even if in the beginning it's not much.

If you're really honest, you'll most likely find that most of the things you encounter in life (other people's thoughts and actions, natural disasters, traffic, bank failures, etc etc etc) are not within your control.

What a relief!

Olska,

Thanks for this, I am going to try it this week, like it a lot. Some time ago one of my mentors showed me the "Benjamin T" a simple decision making tool of a sheet of paper with a big t across it, pros are listed on one side cons the other. I have used this hundreds of times over the years in place of a doubt formula, it only works if you are being brutally honest and unbiased in pros and cons.

It hadn't come to me ... using this format for other thought processes than simple yes no decisions. This is pretty cool. I would imagine it as being increadibly usefull in dealing with overwhelm, or confusion as we would have said in the church.

 

[Gadfly]

I would like to add that Hubbard's subject of Scientology has a BIG "button" on control.

The entire slant of the concept of the Eight Dynamics involves the idea to become CAUSE and to EXPAND out into larger and larger spheres with CONTROL.

The notion of "controlling ones environment" is paramount in Scientology. Maybe some of us still harbor such silly ideas, where we are going to expand and control EVERYTHING? Control is viewed as always good and needed? And, lack of control is viewed as bad?

OSA is the epitome of the need for "control" gone haywire, with its endless attempts to get "out there" and manipulate things to CAUSE an EFFECT.

Olska's idea and suggestion is wonderful because it brngs about a much more realistic view and understanding of where YOU fit in, and what YOU can "actually" and honestly do as far as controlling all sorts of things.

Not the megalomaniacal view of Hubbard, as it manifested in Scientology, where one is to ALWAYS GET OUT THERE AND MAKE (FORCE) THE ENVIRONMENT TO CONFORM TO YOUR WISHES AND DICTATES

+

 

[TG1]

Mick, I find your response above very interesting and offering insights I'd never considered with regard to XSO and ex-staff. Your comments also help me take a fresh look at and understand better what I've seen occurring here at ESMB the last few weeks.

Tough stuff. Thanks.

TG1

 

[Mike Laws]

Got it!



Thank you, but I think you sell yourself a little short. Not sure how long you were in the SO and your age when you got out.

I was born into Scn, joined the SO at 15 , semi out at 26, most of that time at Int, then spent another 8 years on a hamster wheel trying to stay in good standing, be a scientologist, scraping to get auditing, FSMing, volunteering, thinking about going back in, etc.

Now this is where we diverge a little though I think 10 years is neither too long nor too short to be honest.

An interesting point with interesting tendrils leading off into semi dark places. Especially considering your later comments. Do we actually recover? There is a very scio thing, which is also prevelent in american culture of wanting or needing to fix things. Don't move on till you can fix things or make them perfect (usually unatainable). I have gotten into more trouble trying to fix things or people, even when not really my business or something I can control, than anything else. Perhaps an item for self reflection.

But for me the important thing was not whether I was making OK money the hardest thing I had to do was to decide what I wanted to accomplish. What did I wish to do in this life of mine? And, just as important - what did my wife want to do and how could we make that happen?

When you are saying "OK" what do you mean? Are you happy in your life? Doing things that, by and large, you like to do? I sometimes think that XSO in particular (may be true for all exes) tend to hedge our statements like you just did "not where I want to be" "of course I could be doing better" . More on this point a little later

Talking about myself in certain ways on boards tends to result in undesirable consequences, so I am wording this carefully. By OK I mean compared to garden variety people in countries I am intimately familiar with, US, Australia, Germany, England. Professionally I statistically fall within the upper 5%. Personally I fall in average with friends, a comfortable home, good relatiosnhips with family, stability, health good though way out of shape, etc. etc. Emotionally, I don't know .... I get great pleasure and satisfaction from my work which is always challenging and rewarding, but I can't quantify if I am personally doing well or not. Don't know how to do it meaningfully and honestly.

I wish you all the best with that - that could really help some people.

It is actually very simple, the core fits onto a single page, but the part eluding me is the most essential emotional component. People have to want to do and be motivated to do those things, and make sacrifices, to achieve whatever financial goal they want. People say they want a certain level of financial success, but either cant or won't motivate themselves to take the steps to get there. The actions don't match the words so the result is elusive.

whoa dude. Tough one.

Do we have a month or two... LOL

After talking with a lot of XSO and running the list for 5 years and based on my own experience...

1) We never totally 'heal'. We had part of our life amputated (and yes we enthusiastically participated) and it does not grow back. We do however , improve

I don't enjoy hearing this, but it rings true. My professional and financial status did not improve till I completely broke from the Scio culture, blocked it from my mind and acted if it was not there. But it comes back easily.

2) for SO member s- we spent our time in the SO consciously and willingly indoctrinating ourselves. 24/7. If we were in the SO for years then it doesnt come undone in months.

3) what we appear to lack, especially in the first couple of years of being out are tools to recognize problems and tools to ameliorate or deal with them.

What I mean by all that is that we were changed by the experience (of course) and that because we participated and volunteered for the programming/brainwashing/conditioning whatever we wish to call it, it became part of us. Most people try to resist brainwashing which is why they get over it. Not us!

In talking to many XSO I have found some similarities - physical reactions to indoctrination, like, for example, getting angry when disagreed with, getting angry when reading 'attacks' on us, a feeling of fear when reading an 'attack' on us.

I have had some anger issues, driven my fist through a few walls, etc. Learning to control it came with maturity and experience ... don't punch a steel door, for example. Fear seems to be a bigger issue with many of those I have worked with, fear of failure, not being good enough, not being loved, etc. I have had those as well. A lot of these seem to tie into being worked or concerned about things we can't control.

Lack of stamina - I have heard from a couple of well versed medical professionals who are XSO that adrenal exhaustion is probably the cause of this - after years of very high level stress, poor diet and lack of sleep most have problems readjusting. Of course when we first get out we are racing around trying to put things back together - what is needed is actually a time to learn to readjust and to take care of ourselves,

This, from what I have seen is the biggest one that prevents exs from getting on with their lives. The adrenal makes sence, living on a life of urgent emergencies and crisis artificially created creates something akin to battle fatigue. I think another major part of it is intellectual and emotional ... for x years trying to save the world, a purpose noble if misguided is not replaced as a motivating factor by putting bread on my table or buying a nice car.

Nightmares. I have found very few who did not have them (I am one) but the vast majority do and for years.

I also don't have nightmares about it, maybe an unpleasant dream once or twice a year, but most I have talked to have them.

Readjusting to life where we actually have free time and how to use that to serve ourselves and our goals without feeling guilty. Doing things without having to justify doing them.

There's more but this is all I have time for at the moment.

Seriously Mike we will be handling "stuff" until we shuffle off this mortal coil. All we can do, I think is be willing to listen to and help a fellow "sufferer".

I agree, and try and do the same.

One of the reasons (among many) that I am so down on Marty and Mike is not because I do not like them as themselves - I really do like Mike and I do not dislike Marty I don't know him well enough - it is because I think what they are doing is extending the recovery time. They are not helping people heal but merely prolonging the misery.

This I can agree with, a person who was unable to create a desirable life for themselves with the "tech" is spinning their wheels looking for an alternative tech to do so ... needing to spent $50,000 or more to go clear to be able to buy a home to live in is irrational when the majority of US and australian population do it in the course of their personal lives. Some people, myself included when I was still involved, use the tech as a justifier for lack of personal responsibility and accomplishment ... a fix me mentality.

Tactically or strategically I do see a role for the independants and freezoners as today on lines public I have spoken to are giving "how will I get my bridge" as a lead objection to leaving the church.

 

[me myself & i]

Deleted....already fixed

 

[Panda Termint]

Mike use the end quote code [/QUOTE] and that'll be a hell of a lot easier to follow.
I got it anyway. Thanks.
Mick, that was a great response to the initial question. Thanks.