The Mayo Challenge

[Purple Rain]

I've been reading in my psychology textbook - shock, horror, faint, lol - that conflict can be healthy. Actually maybe that was my management textbook, but whatever. I think the TheRealNoUser is turning out to be much more alright than I first suspected. I mean, it's become a very interesting thread with some important topics being discussed. I can understand the initial anger, but TRNU has kept responding despite the numerous social sanctions and most of the posts have been rational, apart from the asylum one which was funny. My life is often like an asylum, only sometimes I wish the walls would disappear! But the healthy exchange of different points of view is always enlightening, and certainly unboring. Plus now I know I can blame Face for everything, life just got a whole lot simpler. I'm not responsible! Yaaaaay!!!

 

[Purple Rain]

Does anyone else ever still feel responsible for stuff like the earthquakes in Japan? You know, that Scientology Responsibility Butterfly Effect thing? Or maybe I just like to be guilty. I mean, I know it's madness. I know there's no way that stuff has anything to do with me except for perhaps my carbon footprint and stuff, but I just have to feel guilty about EVERYTHING.

 

[Gottabrain]

Gottabrain, Purple Rain is not Purple Haze (Candy). They're both Purple but are very different people. You've protested at AOSH ANZO with Purple Rain. You're right about one thing though, that Purple Rain post was EXCELLENT!

Stupid me! I could only hope Candy would write something like that. Wishful thinking.

Of course it would be OUR VERY LOVED Purple Rain! She's a stunning writer and speaker - prolific, warm, specific and heartbreakingly honest.

Welcome back, Purple Rain. I'm glad to see you posting again. I've missed you heaps! Hope all is well and maybe we can get together at a protest some time soon.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

i concluded back in the 80's that if one stayed in long enough, eventually everybody gets declared. my favorite scene... roy selby picking weeds on the lawn at a house in l.a. (old rpf) i went to l.a. to get away from him and there he was. lol.

FWIW, Roy is a regular poster on Terril Park's FreezoneOrg yahoo chat group.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... David Mayo was posting on this thread and I want to know if he believes in Xenu and BTs!!

Since the gag order prevents him from addressing most such topics directly, you might want to reframe your question in terms of: what techniques or approaches does David Mayo now advocate for expanding human potential.

Much can be accomplished through indirect means when the direct approach has been barred.


Mark A. Baker

 

[uniquemand]

Does anyone else ever still feel responsible for stuff like the earthquakes in Japan? You know, that Scientology Responsibility Butterfly Effect thing? Or maybe I just like to be guilty. I mean, I know it's madness. I know there's no way that stuff has anything to do with me except for perhaps my carbon footprint and stuff, but I just have to feel guilty about EVERYTHING.

I never specifically felt guilty as a result of Scientology training/processing for any events that were outside of my sphere of operation. However, I do think it is common for people to feel empathy and perhaps some misplaced guilt over natural disasters. It's probably a part of our religious impulses, or the impulses that get clustered into religion, now.

If something happens that I can control, could have stopped, and I was simply negligent, then yes, I feel guilty.

There are things I do feel guilty about: I am an advocate of nuclear power, so when an accident happens, I feel a bit defensive about it.

 

[ChuckNorrisCutsMyLawn]

Does anyone else ever still feel responsible for stuff like the earthquakes in Japan? You know, that Scientology Responsibility Butterfly Effect thing? Or maybe I just like to be guilty. I mean, I know it's madness. I know there's no way that stuff has anything to do with me except for perhaps my carbon footprint and stuff, but I just have to feel guilty about EVERYTHING.

I'm not arrogant enough as an individual or as a member of the human species to believe I or the human race as a whole has any effect on the shifting of the Earth's plates, I'm not even sure if our glutenous consumption of resources and irresponsible production of pollution has any effect the Earth's climate either, but I can't think of a single reason why conserving resources and minimizing pollution is a bad idea.

 

[Petey C]

I forgot to mention my context. I was on Flag 1983-86 (or so), and the regges, and all execs on the chain above the regges got HEFTY book commissions. Big dollars. So many big dollars that the CO FSO (Ron Norton) and the FLB Finance Director (Jon Lundeen) drove corvettes! Paul Miller, FSO Div 2 reg, had a beautiful 500 series BMW!

I am sure it is/was true that class IV org regges did not at all share so well in the "spoils".

+++++++++++++

I was going to say the same and you beat me to it. The FSO regges were wealthy by other SO standards, and got commissions not just on books but on all packages they sold. And of course they had a big, fat field to play in, unlike little orgs in out of the way places. Flag Missionaires did get bonuses but they depended on the target org's stats being in normal or above for a period of six weeks following the mission -- not that easy to achieve given the number of variables post-mission. I picked through some of my Scn crap the other day and found two mission bonuses dating to the early 1980s, one for $15 and one for $4. I do remember getting a missionaire bonus of close to $100 once, which I used to go to the optician as the SO certainly wasn't going to be throwing money away on medical expenses for their staff.

Peggy

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

FWIW, Roy is a regular poster on Terril Park's FreezoneOrg yahoo chat group.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Gottabrain]

I've been reading in my psychology textbook - shock, horror, faint, lol - that conflict can be healthy. Actually maybe that was my management textbook, but whatever. I think the TheRealNoUser is turning out to be much more alright than I first suspected. I mean, it's become a very interesting thread with some important topics being discussed. I can understand the initial anger, but TRNU has kept responding despite the numerous social sanctions and most of the posts have been rational, apart from the asylum one which was funny. My life is often like an asylum, only sometimes I wish the walls would disappear! But the healthy exchange of different points of view is always enlightening, and certainly unboring. Plus now I know I can blame Face for everything, life just got a whole lot simpler. I'm not responsible! Yaaaaay!!!

Hi Sweetie!! Wow, we posted at the same time so I missed what you wrote.

TheRealNoUser has not differentiated between the tech and admin staff. Let's take Lisa MacPherson as an example. HAD a REAL tech person (who was interested in her emotional and physical well being, as they are, even if misguided) C/Sed her rather than David Miscaviage, whose only purpose was punishment and abuse, Lisa would most likely not only be alive today, but well out of Scientology altogether.

In my 9 years on SO staff, I saw hundreds of examples of the tech staff (auditors and C/Ses) standing up to admin staff, doing their best to stop abuses. Sometimes they were successful - as Sandy Wilhere was when she ordered the RPF to release me and crammed everyone up and down the line who had forced me to stay on the RPF as a prisoner to "rehabilitate" me because I wanted to raise my 4 year old son instead. God bless Sandy Wilhere.

Even the worst auditor was willing to be corrected, to admit they were wrong, if their efforts to help another proved harmful.

But some admin staff had the JOBS of destroying critics, committing illegal acts, getting stats up regardless of consequences, spying on others - all in the name of protecting or expanding Scientology.

If I have a bias toward auditors and other techies, it is due to 9 years of personal experiences and observations in the SO. To demonize people who worked on the basis of compassion without losing that compassion is to demonize the greatest characteristic of man, don't you think? Yes, they were misled, but the techies did what they could to help others get stronger and happier and to stand up to abuses in the small ways they could as techies. To believe otherwise is a huge misunderstanding of what actually went on in the SO and in Scientology. The techies, more often than not, saved others from the severe abuses of true believers who were admin staff. I can give many, many examples.

I didn't stay in the SO or Scn because of the tech. I stayed in because I was caught up in the web of a cult. The best sessions I ever had were the ones that opened my eyes to the fact I shouldn't be there and wasn't happy there and felt trapped continuing as I had.

TO THEREALNOUSER and TRNU - David and Julie are ex's. They have (previously) stated that they are not Scientologists. Both are in their senior years. Please be considerate.

 

[TheRealNoUser]

I've been reading in my psychology textbook - shock, horror, faint, lol - that conflict can be healthy. Actually maybe that was my management textbook, but whatever. I think the TheRealNoUser is turning out to be much more alright than I first suspected. I mean, it's become a very interesting thread with some important topics being discussed. I can understand the initial anger, but TRNU has kept responding despite the numerous social sanctions and most of the posts have been rational, apart from the asylum one which was funny. My life is often like an asylum, only sometimes I wish the walls would disappear! But the healthy exchange of different points of view is always enlightening, and certainly unboring. Plus now I know I can blame Face for everything, life just got a whole lot simpler. I'm not responsible! Yaaaaay!!!

That was very nice of you Purple Rain. One thing is for sure. This heated exchange could never have taken place in The Church of Scientology. Also, I'm pleased that someone found the asylum story funny. I was beginning to get the impression that everyone thought I was running an engram.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

... If I have a bias toward auditors and other techies, it is due to 9 years of personal experiences and observations in the SO. To demonize people who worked on the basis of compassion without losing that compassion is to demonize the greatest characteristic of man, don't you think? Yes, they were misled, but the techies did what they could to help others get stronger and happier and to stand up to abuses in the small ways they could as techies. To believe otherwise is a huge misunderstanding of what actually went on in the SO and in Scientology. The techies, more often than not, saved others from the severe abuses of true believers who were admin staff. I can give many, many examples. ...

Moreover, in many cases the tech used was very successfully applied to help individuals achieve their own goals. Much abuse was practiced in the church in the name of auditing, but by no means was all the auditing either abusive or ineffective for the purpose of helping others. That is a point that is often lost amidst the heat of discussions on the internet.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Gottabrain]

Moreover, in many cases the tech used was very successfully applied to help individuals achieve their own goals. Much abuse was practiced in the church in the name of auditing, but by no means was all the auditing either abusive or ineffective for the purpose of helping others. That is a point that is often lost amidst the heat of discussions on the internet.

Mark A. Baker

As much as I hate to admit this, it is true. My big OT-3 realization was that I wanted nothing to do with the SO and must leave staff. And I still think OT-3 is bananas, but there you go. My ARC Straightwire auditing helped me remember what was good in my life as a child and put things in a better, saner, more balanced perspective. My FIRST bout of FPRD (BEFORE the RPF!!) helped me realize my marriage was a farce (it was..we knew each other 2 mos & married in the SO, had almost nothing in common outside the SO) and again, that I should leave staff to achieve my goals.

But I could not say those things to the auditor while an SO member and member of the Cult of Scientology. And many other processes were controlling and harmful and what was done on the RPF was a completely abusive mind f&*k.

But I would qualify this to say it depended on how highly the auditor valued the person's PERSONAL goals and well being over the value of the tech, since much of the tech was harmful.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

As much as I hate to admit this, it is true. My big OT-3 realization was that I wanted nothing to do with the SO and must leave staff. And I still think OT-3 is bananas, but there you go. My ARC Straightwire auditing helped me remember what was good in my life as a child and put things in a better, saner, more balanced perspective. My FIRST bout of FPRD (BEFORE the RPF!!) helped me realize my marriage was a farce (it was..we knew each other 2 mos & married in the SO, had almost nothing in common outside the SO) and again, that I should leave staff to achieve my goals.

But I could not say those things to the auditor while an SO member and member of the Cult of Scientology. And many other processes were controlling and harmful and what was done on the RPF was a completely abusive mind f&*k.

But I would qualify this to say it depended on how highly the auditor valued the person's PERSONAL goals and well being over the value of the tech, since much of the tech was harmful.

I am genuinely sorry you had such a bad time of it. In comparison I don't regret a thing about my own experience with the church, although it was under considerably different set of circumstances to yours. I actually regard my decision to involve myself with scientology as the best thing that has happened in my life. The next best was the decision to leave, although that one did cost me some friends whom I still value to this day. They are good people who have been badly used.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Gottabrain]

I am genuinely sorry you had such a bad time of it. In comparison I don't regret a thing about my own experience with the church, although it was under considerably different set of circumstances to yours. I actually regard my decision to involve myself with scientology as the best thing that has happened in my life. The next best was the decision to leave, although that one did cost me some friends whom I still value to this day. They are good people who have been badly used.

Mark A. Baker

Thanks, Mark, but I'm not unique. Nearly all SO and staff members had a bad time of it and it's only worse now. To get rid of the harmful bits would require eliminating the SO, the Church status, the controls, the money behind the operation, the propaganda that it is scientific, all the cult characteristics and canceling at least 3/4 of the policies. Then, as you already know, the tech would need to be sifted through.

You and I will never agree about Scn, but we had hugely different experiences. I believe methods outside Scn are far more effective. You don't.

Joseph Campbell once wrote, ""If you can see your path laid out in front of you step by step, you know it's not your path. Your own path you make with every step you take. That's why it's your path."

And that is the difference between a Bridge for everyone and a person's individual spiritual enlightenment and freedom.

Mankind often invents or introduces destructive things without also inventing the solutions to these things. Nuclear and atomic power. Cane toads in Australia. Poisonous chemical byproducts that don't break down.

To me, Scientology's potential for harm is far worse than any good it may do. But again, my experiences are different from yours. At the end of the day, we each must choose and carve our own paths.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Thanks, Mark, but I'm not unique. ...

Well you are, but not in the degree to which you had a bad experience with scientology. Nor, did I ever wish to imply that 'only a few had bad experiences'. Quite the contrary.

There were plenty around enduring significant troubles while I was in, and I was in and out quickly between '79-81. Things were already quite far gone organizationally by then, and they only got successively worse. CO & Purple Haze had pretty good runs too at a time when things were much better than they were when I was in. They were out by the early '70s, in part because the game was clearly losing the luster for them.

The truth is there is no 'one size' experience of scientology. However, the longer one is in and the more deeply a person is involved with the Co$ then the greater the likelihood they will directly experience very abusive situations.


Mark A. Baker

 

[uniquemand]

I'm unique!

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I'm unique!

The Lord is Merciful.


Mark A. Baker

 

[Terril park]

He audits to good results. A commonality.

 

[Terril park]

Hi Sweetie!! Wow, we posted at the same time so I missed what you wrote.

TheRealNoUser has not differentiated between the tech and admin staff. Let's take Lisa MacPherson as an example. HAD a REAL tech person (who was interested in her emotional and physical well being, as they are, even if misguided) C/Sed her rather than David Miscaviage, whose only purpose was punishment and abuse, Lisa would most likely not only be alive today, but well out of Scientology altogether.

In my 9 years on SO staff, I saw hundreds of examples of the tech staff (auditors and C/Ses) standing up to admin staff, doing their best to stop abuses. Sometimes they were successful - as Sandy Wilhere was when she ordered the RPF to release me and crammed everyone up and down the line who had forced me to stay on the RPF as a prisoner to "rehabilitate" me because I wanted to raise my 4 year old son instead. God bless Sandy Wilhere.

Even the worst auditor was willing to be corrected, to admit they were wrong, if their efforts to help another proved harmful.

But some admin staff had the JOBS of destroying critics, committing illegal acts, getting stats up regardless of consequences, spying on others - all in the name of protecting or expanding Scientology.

If I have a bias toward auditors and other techies, it is due to 9 years of personal experiences and observations in the SO. To demonize people who worked on the basis of compassion without losing that compassion is to demonize the greatest characteristic of man, don't you think? Yes, they were misled, but the techies did what they could to help others get stronger and happier and to stand up to abuses in the small ways they could as techies. To believe otherwise is a huge misunderstanding of what actually went on in the SO and in Scientology. The techies, more often than not, saved others from the severe abuses of true believers who were admin staff. I can give many, many examples.

I didn't stay in the SO or Scn because of the tech. I stayed in because I was caught up in the web of a cult. The best sessions I ever had were the ones that opened my eyes to the fact I shouldn't be there and wasn't happy there and felt trapped continuing as I had.

TO THEREALNOUSER and TRNU - David and Julie are ex's. They have (previously) stated that they are not Scientologists. Both are in their senior years. Please be considerate.

Kisses. xxxx