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The State of Clear

OK. So I have got some egg on my face. No big deal at all. Yet I stand by what I wrote.



Admittedly, that is an Ability Attained that I do not have...

To post badly mistaken information, then confidently state that it is 'no big deal at all'--and without missing a beat, re-assert the mistake by claiming 'I stand by what I wrote."

Kinda reminds me of the Auditor's Code...


20. I promise not to explain, justify or make excuses in session for any auditor mistakes whether real or imagined.

AUDITOR
I'd like to indicate that the past
100 hours were an overrun.

PC
So because of your out tech, you
overran me and it cost me $50,000.
Now what?

AUDITOR
It's no big deal at all.
I stand by what I ran.

PC
Wuttt? Aren't you going to explain it
or apologize or correct your mistake?

AUDITOR
No, that would be an Auditor's Code break
and not good for your case.
I'm here for you.
​
 
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... Maybe I can focus the question by comparing it to a question about another state, namely the state of being able to swim. Being able to swim is a particular, definite state. ...

No. You're confusing things which are different. :no:

A state of being is different from an action or activity. It is a condition existent in itself. Actions & activities represent an alteration of state of some assumed existent being. Such actions & activities often define an assumed identity.

Per your example of 'swimming'; assuming there is something which exists and that may be said to be engaged in the action of swimming, moreover that that existent thing possesses some degree of skill in the activity and may thus be viewed as having adopted the identity of a swimmer.

The scientology ideas of 'be, do, have' are illustrated in the above in the: be = identity (i.e. swimmer), do = action (i.e. swimming), have = quality possessed (i.e. skill of swimming). These reflect the so-called 'cycles of action' and are a scientology borrowing from Vedanta's Trimurti. In the Vedantic parallel the being itself reflects the primordial Brahman, that which is uncreated and unmanifested and from which the Trimurti are themselves projected.

That which fundamentally is is the being itself. It is in a state of being, which is distinct from the considerations it may have concerning its state of being. Those considerations are intimately linked to its perception of its 'identity' (or ego in some traditions).

It is not the same as a swimmer, although in common speech the two are often confused. A swimmer is a logically distinct & specific identity and the being is capable of adopting many such identities (runner, reader, reaper, etc.) each bearing a measure of distinction from each other and together reflecting the qualities and skills the being displays as a creation or manifested entity.

You can think of the being/identity dichotomy as equivalent to the creator/creature dichotomy.

Confusion over identities is a significant spiritual & psychological difficulty as well as a common reason for difficulty in self recognition of one's own state of being.

This is not 'simply a difference of semantics'. It is the difference between a state of being versus activity and identity. They are NOT the same. Nor is it an 'insignificant difference'.

Clear is a state of being. It is not an action, activity, or skill. You do not become clear by acquiring a skill in action, activity, or by assuming an identity. Attempts to define clear in terms of acquired skills or identities are innately flawed as the truth is closer to what is left when a being removes from 'himself' that which he perceives as unnecessary or irrelevant to himself.

Thus, the state is best understood only through a process of stripping away fixed considerations about assumed identities and perceived 'necessary' actions. It can not be understood in any other way. An individual's own personal experience of a similar releasing of fixed conditions and considerations is requisite for actually understanding clear, both as a goal as well as a process. In this it is similar to the goal & practice of Buddhism.

David Mayo's essay is believed by myself as well as many others to be the most elucidating discussion of the state generally available. http://www.ivymag.org/iv-01-02.html

Truly though, it can not be completely understood except through the actual experience. This is not physics, it is metaphysics; metaphysics as in the philosophical metaphysics which has been the basis of serious philosophic study since the time of Pythagoras & Plato. Physical models are insufficient.


Mark A. Baker
 
... As I've already said several times, it was not just a run-of-the-mill something it was a special kinda something of value; an epiphany which I have already described several times in this thread but which you never seem to acknowledge.

...

If the Flag Service Org with all its resources and the power and Technical Might I granted them at the time was, despite its penchant for Bridge re-do's, unable to fault it, what makes you think that anything said here would?

:thumbsup:

Cynical Me: I find it amusingly ironic how so many who complain vehemently of the invalidation, coercion, & enforced subjugation which they have experienced within the church are nonetheless eager to 'spread the joy'.


Mark A. Baker
 
I am so not arguing about whether PT "got value" from Scientology. I am merely working to establish, since PT "is Clear" but does not claim the characteristics of "a person who no longer has a Reactive Mind", exactly what criteria PT was using to claim the lable "Clear". I've got that now.
Bill, this is incorrect, you're putting words into my mouth (so to speak).
Nowhere on this thread have I refuted the "no Reactive Mind" definition. I do NOT, in fact, have a reactive mind.

My disagreements about Hubbard's definitions center mostly on the definition-by-attributes stuff. These are particularly telling in DMSMH where Hubbard was obviously postulating/imagining/lying about these attributes.

It's no surprise to me that the definitions of Clear changed once someone actually "made" one. As I said earlier, it probably surprised the Hell out of him when he finally got a look at what the tech produced. Comparing what he got to what he thought he'd get reminds me of that old joke about the Russian baby-carriage factory.
 
And BTW it is this same ethos that miscavige is so determined to stamp out altogether with his GAT crap.

Oh, and BTW, if Hubbard's Tech was capable of producing anything other than reality challenged, delusional Scientologists, no one would even know who Miscavige is because it wouldn't have been so easily hijacked by someone like Miscavige,

but because Hubbard's Tech produces nothing but reality challenged, delusional Scientologists, all it took was a little bullying for a nobody like Miscavige to take it over ... every aspect of it.

Even a nobody like Marty Rathbun can build a cult of reality challenged, delusional Scientologists with Hubbard's Tech, because that is all it's good for and all it's ever been good for.

Scientology from day one has never produced anything other than Scientologists.
 
Mark A. Baker said:
Cynical Me: I find it amusingly ironic how so many who complain vehemently of the invalidation, coercion, & enforced subjugation which they have experienced within the church are nonetheless eager to 'spread the joy'.

Mark, its not amusing.
 
<snip>
A state of being is different from an action or activity. having adopted the identity of a swimmer.....
<snip>

Swimmer won the Gold Medal in the Olympics and the record held for 37 years.

The swimmer achieved the state of being the fastest swimmer ever in that style for that distance.

What part of that sentence is not true, correct, proper ( and shoots down the longwinded post about a swimmer not achieving a state ) ?
 
Yes, Bill, but did you REALLY get it? That commentary and ack just rang kinda hollow.

As I've already said several times, it was not just a run-of-the-mill something it was a special kinda something of value; an epiphany which I have already described several times in this thread but which you never seem to acknowledge.

Perhaps you missed it when I said that I realised I was the person creating my own condition in regards to all this mental stuff; I became cause over all these attitudes, emotions, sensations and pains which I had previously thought were somewhat beyond my ability to control. I changed my mind, man! I stopped being effect of it all and vanquished previously immovable mental masses at a single glance... perhaps I even became faster than a speeding bullet and able to leap tall buildings in a single bound but I never thought to try those things. I do, however, continue to stand for Truth, Justice and the Humanitarian way.

Whatever, I've said my truth on the subject of Clear. I have no real interest in continually repeating myself in circular arguments where you work on convincing me that it had/has no real value or I work on convincing you or others of what is true for me.

Like most who spent decades in scientology and on Upper Levels I have had the State Of Clear questioned, checked and verified many times (multiple DCSIs, CCRDs, Clear Checks on NOTs, Solo NOTs etc). If the Flag Service Org with all its resources and the power and Technical Might I granted them at the time was, despite its penchant for Bridge re-do's, unable to fault it, what makes you think that anything said here would?
I have absolutely no doubt you had something very, very special happen. I'm perfectly happy with that.

But, unless you are laying claim to all those attributes I covered which would be expected of a person who "no longer has a Reactive Mind", I'd consider that you did not get rid of your Reactive Mind. Hence, by definition, you didn't achieve the Scientology defined State of Clear.

Yes, you attained something significant. Good for you. But not the agreed-upon definition of Clear.

If you want to call it "Clear", go right ahead. All Scientologists do, but it isn't.

[I am not attacking you or claiming you "didn't get wins", I'm attacking all the people claiming to be "Clear" who have forgotten the basic definition and, therefore, the essential characteristics of Clear.]
 
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Like most who spent decades in scientology and on Upper Levels I have had the State Of Clear questioned, checked and verified many times (multiple DCSIs, CCRDs, Clear Checks on NOTs, Solo NOTs etc). If the Flag Service Org with all its resources and the power and Technical Might I granted them at the time was, despite its penchant for Bridge re-do's, unable to fault it, what makes you think that anything said here would?
Pardon me, but why on Earth would I think a reliable verification of your alleged "State of Clear" would come from the organization who's very existence depends on "delivering Clear & OT"?

Like they are going to be honest and say, "Actually, no one shows any signs of having erased their Reactive Mind. There are no Clears. There are no OTs. Here's your money back."

No, their "checks" will be designed to "verify" Clear using criteria that carefully avoid looking at any characteristics like those I've listed.

Getting "rid of your Reactive Mind" would inevitably result in the exact and specific removal of all evidence of its influence. That isn't a test that any Scientology "Clear" would pass.
 
Pardon me, but why on Earth would I think a reliable verification of your alleged "State of Clear" would come from the organization who's very existence depends on "delivering Clear & OT"?
<snip...>
Perhaps it's been a while since you were at Flag. Let me assure you that the current Tech regime is much more interested in finding Solo NOTs Auditors to be unClear than they are in verifying any States achieved pre-GAT. It's a recycling kinda thing. Their very existence actually depends on re-delivering and then re-re-delivering all aspects of scientology. :biggrin:
 
Scientologists accept the "Clear cog", DCSIs, CCRDs, Clear Checks and who knows what in place of the expected and promised gains. They accept all the problems and aberrations of their pre-Clear days after they've "gone Clear" without any thought.

They've "gone Clear". It's "been verified". So, they're "Clear". And they struggle on, hoping that the "next level" will bring them the wonderful gains they were hoping for.

They substitute their own observation and their own awareness for some "Clear Check" to tell them what they've achieved. They exchange what they can see for themselves for "knowingness" -- where reality is ignored and belief is king.

The dream of Clear and OT is dead. Now thousands of ordinary, average joes are strutting around as "Clears" and "OTs". They've been sold a big bag of nothing -- and they're happy because the bag says "Clear" on it and it's their bag!
 
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