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How far would have you gone?

Petey C

Silver Meritorious Patron
My question is when you where in, do you think you could have given your life, gone to jail...for Scn?

Nope. I never even really wanted to join the SO and only did so because I was broke and couldn't afford to pay for auditing/training, and I was lazy (therefore didn't like the idea of joining staff, which to me at the time meant having two jobs).

But in some ways I did give my life -- eight years of it anyway -- to Scn.
 

Gadfly

Crusader
And, it seemed ridiculous to me that some did behave that way - with their pompous pushiness, over-the-top arrogance and obnoxious certainty.


Sorry I wasn't perfect like you....

But I admit that it turn me into some arrogant I have to put ethics in kind of guy...

But how did you end up in the SO a few years if you weren't a " true believer" ??

I have explained this before. at least in part. Here's another version.

I had been into drugs for 5 years since college. I had been a drug dealer, and also had no interest in "working in the real world". I was a "hippe". I was and remain into many things "alternative". I found "modern society" greatly lacking - though I am not quite so severe in that now.

I had been sort of setup by reading and agreeing with Rudolf Steiner's ideas about "spiritual advancement", where a person needed a "group" to help with spiritual advancement. The idea was that one needed to 1) gain personally, and also 2) help with the continuance of the group. I DUBBED THAT onto Scientology (especially the Sea Org).

I had NO idea how I was going to "make money" after stopping life as a drug dealer (mainly pot). It was stressful, as I wanted to get out of all of that, but I was "worried" too about surviving. Of course, I was lied to about how I would be able to easily survive on "org staff pay". I came to see the "bait 'n switch" at MANY points with Scientology - the lies about "org pay", the lies about "what you get from auditing", the lies about "what is Scientology", etc. I believed the lies at first, and came to finally understand the TRUTH at many different moments of "realization" along the way.

I had been in Scientology 3-4 months before getting recruited for the Sea Org. I had walked into the Boston Org, after having read Dianetics, wanted to go Clear, and bought about 400 hours worth of auditing. I did 25-40 hours of auditing, week after week, for MANY months, THAT was pretty cool.

I was lied to and told that I could be a "Flag Rep" in the Boston org, and thus could still be in a band (I played guitar).

I didn't have a great amount of facts about what the Sea Org actually REALLY was, how it operated, etc.

I very much liked what I got from the auditing, and incorrectly assumed that because "these" were so nice and wonderful, that ALL of Scientology and Hubbard must be nice and wonderful (they weren't).

I learned quickly that there was a GREAT deal of BULLSHIT in the Sea Org. I never did an EPF (I didn't even know what one was). I never did any SO training at any SO base. I did my staff statuses and FR hatting at the Boston Org. Within a few months of being on post as a Flag Rep, I refused to implement direct orders from FB and INT, which were based on what to me was an insane and inane "upper level evaluation". I had the Flag Flag Rep, and the even the evaluator (Alan Buchanan) on the phone with me YELLING, "what are you Flag's rep or the org's rep"? I just kept telling them that the eval and handling was absurd. Not what they wanted to hear.

I was pulled to "FOLO EUS", Comm Eved, and then put through some basic Sea Org courses - I still never did any EPF. The more I saw, the more I disliked. But, I still couldn't quite make sense of how something that could make me feel so good - auditing - could be at the same time SO FUCKING CRAZY (org tech, the Sea Org, management, etc).

To make as long story short, I was recruited at FOLO to come back to FOLO as crew. I was then a bit insecure and I bit at the "be part of the elite team" button. :duh: :ohmy:

I hated it, but I went to FOLO. While there, my senior got busted, and I ended up as the FR EUS - one of the top three executives! I had NO training. I did what I could, but I could NEVER be the "fire-breathing tear-them-a-new-asshole product officer" that was required of SO senior executives. I got married while at FOLO. Got busted after about 6 months, as I failed miserably (a GOOD thing). Ordered to Flag this time, Comm Eved again, more bullshit, etc. Went on LOA to pay off bills. Drove a taxi cab in NYC. THAT was FUN!

Finished the LOA and went to Toronto with wife to be Flag Rep. That was nuts, because a few months later the WDC Mission came, and the mission decided that MANAGEMENT was the problem, so all Flag Reps and LRH Comms were to "leave the org staff alone". It was just so nuts to me. Policy saying one thing, issues coming out Green on White NOT signed by LRH, and on and on. I agreed with the missionaires - management WAS NUTS. I decided that I did NOT want to be there. So, I packed up one night, and reported back to FOLO EUS, and said, "I am routing out". I persisted and routed out. I really HATED allowing myself to be in such insane situations that were standard operating procedure for the Sea Org staff. I stayed married.

Oh also, while in Toronto, I worked various odd jobs on the week-ends to make extra money. I had certain minimal requirements and I wouldn't tolerate "starving" or "making it go right on peanut butter and jelly". Too stupid.

Moved to an apartment in NYC, wife got reposted from FOLO to NY Org staff in Div 6. I drive a taxi cab. I was playing music too. It was okay. But then a mission came to the NY org with the aim to ORDER ALL ex-Sea Org staff BACK into the Sea Org (returning SO veteran program). My wife was handled to go to Flag by intense reg and recruiter Ron Barth. It was actually the best solution. I didn't want my 3 year-old child raised in NYC. My wife would take the A train up to 193rd Street in Washington Heights every night at about 11 pm, and she had already been held up at the door of the apartment THREE times. The trend on THAT was NOT good. So, again, life was just another series of compromises with what existed at the time.

The very last thing I wanted to do was go back into the Sea Org. I truly HATED it. At one point Ron Barth and another SO recruiter were SCREAMING at me in the office, because I made it pretty clear that I thought the Sea Org was nutso. But, with all options available, it seemed the "best at the time". So, my wife and daughter went to Flag. I moved to New Jersey and stayed with my parents while I continued to drive a taxi to finish paying off all my college loans. But also, I built a small recording studio, and was dawdling doing that, meeting locals musicians, putting together demo tapes with vocalists, etc. I was NOT going "A to B", but at some point I felt that I had to get down to be with my wife and daughter (that part I wanted to do). My life has for the most part been "contradictions of desire". I want to stay in NYC and play music, but I wanted to be in FL with my wife and daughter! It has pretty much been like that most of my life. :confused2:

I worked a few extra months so that I could buy a car. There was NO WAY IN HELL that I was going to NOT have a car when in Clearwater, as I would NOT accept being in THAT state of being able to be controlled (no transportation). Also, I saved up a few thousand dollars, because I couldn't imagine living on just SO allowance. :confused2:

I showed up at Flag. I worked for a week renovating my room at the QI. I would NOT "report for duty" until the room was "sealed from roaches", painted, and a loft-bed built to add extra space. Finally at about noon on Thursday, Laurie Engelhart, CO Flag Crew came and ripped my head off, and told me that I had better be "routed in by 2 pm" (for the stats). I resisted and got her to agree to let me come back and finish the room renovations.

I ended up as advanceman for the Flag World Tour. That was fun because I was AWAY from the Sea Org. I was setting up events in a different city every two weeks. I ate out at restaurants all of the time. It was cool (as compared to being stuck at Flag). But, again, I was separated from my wife and kids. And, my wife was pregnant with kid number two!

So, I made lots of noise, complained, got all sorts of Sec Checks, and finally was recalled to Flag - YEAH I was with my wife and child! While on tour as advanceman, the Miami staff really liked me, and we worked out a plan to get me sent to Miami as FSC. Again, YEAH, I could be FAR AWAY from the lunacy of the Sea Org. And, this time, my wife would be there WITH ME.

I did some crash training, and we were off to Miami. But I sucked as a reg. I couldn't do it. I couldn't convince people that "Scientology was the total answer". It just wasn't in me. Oh, we had a baby boy in Miami. Of course, there was the signing up for government assistance, medical stuff, and so forth, but I "made it go right". The best part about all of it was being FAR AWAY from an actual Sea Org base. I blew again, reported back to Flag, and again wanted to route out. I got handled, and did an admin post in the FSC INT N/W for about 7-8 months.

But, I got to a point again where I just could NOT be there. I saw that I could route out, live in Clearwater, start a business, and STILL see my kids MORE than I was doing in the Sea Org. So I routed out. And, I saw my kids twice every week, overnight twice a week, for their entire period in the Cadet Org (up until age 14 when they each were forced to join the Sea Org).

I stayed on the fringes of Scientology, did a few courses here and there (PDC Course and Exteriorization Course on Flag), did a little bit of auditing (FPRD), and volunteered at CCHR.

But, I was ALWAYS seeing more bullshit than everybody else.

I was generally always in situations where I was compromising due to various agreements and responsibilities. I was generally AWARE of these dilemmas, just as I was aware of the PART I had to PLAY to NOT get into trouble (i.e. get declared for voicing what I REALLY saw and thought). See, I had gotten Comm Eved 3 or 4 times while in the Sea Org, always for voicing my views and holding my position. I NEVER "got corrected" and actually believed that I "was wrong in seeing them to be the assholes that they so often were". Oh sure, I often PRETENDED to have cognitions, and told them what I needed to tell them to NOT endanger my comm lines with my kids. And, I easily and clearly saw "how it all worked". I kept quiet about my many perceptions of contradictions, flaws and weirdnesss about many aspects of Scientology, because I saw what routinely happened to those who did not. I suppose that I had an ability to see and experience it on different levels and from different viewpoints at the same time (I took Grade IV seriously).

I also had a continued interest in New Age, magick and off-the-wall subjects. I never stopped reading such things, despite numerous KRs and orders to report to ethics over the years. Simply, I always handled THEM regarding my interest in other-practices (I knew LRH polices well and I could USE certain issues to back and support myself "against them"). I was reading Alice Bailey (channeled Theosophy) books while Flag Rep in Toronto. I was reading Seth Material books while on LOA in NYC. I was reading books on the Giolden Dawn and Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune while on tour for Flag. :confused2:

The "Scientology is all there is" viewpoint never quite sunk in for me. I suppose it did for some.

Finally, it had NOTHING to do with being "perfect". It had to do with being HONEST to myself about the many flaws and contradictions that I clearly saw at EVERY level of Scientology. See, I didn't get involved with Scientology to "communicate better", to "talk to girls better", or "succeed in business or life". I was looking for TRUTH. And, sadly, far too often the LIES and DECEIT and PRETENSE are what presented themselves to me in the guise of "the Road to Freedom". Simply, I could never well lie to myself. Honestly though, I could never understand the mindless 100% total dedication and devotion of the especially deluded. To those who went "that far" with their conviction, certainty, and devotion, that is YOUR cross to bear - not mine. But I do understand how decent personal HOPES & IDEALS can get so easily confused with the scam and lies of organized Scientology.
 
I have explained this before. ...

Good backgrounder, thanks for providing it.


... But, I still couldn't quite make sense of how something that could make me feel so good - auditing - could be at the same time SO FUCKING CRAZY (org tech, the Sea Org, management, etc). ...

And which has a very simple explanation: they represent different aspects of scientology.

Correlation is NOT causation.


Mark A. Baker
 

Gadfly

Crusader
Good backgrounder, thanks for providing it.

You are welcome.

And which has a very simple explanation: they represent different aspects of scientology.

Correlation is NOT causation.

Mark A. Baker

Mine above in BOLD.

Or, said in another way, identity-type thinking leads to trouble. In this case identifying the various "gains" or "feel good moments" with the larger general subject and practices of Scientology and the organization. For me, I differentiated quite a bit all along the way, so there was never any big moment where the "roof collapsed". Also, I have always been able to live "comfortably with contradictions", because I don't enforce the notion of consistency onto the world around me. Simply, I prefer to look at what is, notice it as the actual behvaior that it is, and forget about whether such behaviors "make sense" with other related statements or behaviors.

Granted, many or most people do prefer consistency and sort of subconsciously demand it and react negatively to things when it is not there. People also often react violently against hypocrisy and contradictory claims and statements (such as is so abundantly evident in Hubbard's theories and practices).

See, most people seem to deal with the contradictions by suppressing various facts and observations, along with cognitive dissonance, whereas I could and still do happily allow various contradictions to float alongside each other. :confused2:

That is partially why I never went "full on 100% hip-hip-hooray looney tune true believer".
 

La La Lou Lou

Crusader
Someone I knew very well, a very gentle and nice guy told me how he would be up for knocking off the big SPs, Rockefeller etc. It was so out of character. It reminds me of the really nice guys that are willing to strap suicide belts to themselves. They just wanna help. They fully believe it will help mankind.

This is to me why belief and faith are dangerous.
 

Moosejewels

Patron Meritorious
My question is when you where in, do you think you could have given your life, gone to jail...for Scn?

Unfortunately, my answer to that would have to be yes.
My mind had been thoroughly washed, scrubbed and rinsed clean.
Fortunately I regained my sanity, and real ethics, before any such action on my part occured.
:nervous:
 

Reasonable

Silver Meritorious Patron
My question is when you where in, do you think you could have given your life, gone to jail...for Scn?

Not a chance--death or Jail. However I went into debt but that was because I thought I was goin gto turn into a superhero. It was not to gove money to the IAS to save the planet.
 

HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
...

And furthermore, ladies and gentlemen of the jury. . .

Originally Posted by phénix
My question is when you where in, do you think you could have given your life, gone to jail...for Scn?​


As evidenced by the fact that I am here, I can say with confidence that:

"They didn't have me at Hello (and Okay)."
 
My question is when you where in, do you think you could have given your life, gone to jail...for Scn?

I was a dilettante Scientologist. When it ceased being fair weather, I walked away. The threat of being declared only made me smile.

This was in the mid 1970s. Things changed much more for the worse after that. I would have never joined the group that I left, in the first place.
 

smartone

My Own Boss
My question is when you where in, do you think you could have given your life, gone to jail...for Scn?

I joined in 1985 and it was so much fun for the first 5 years or so - then it all started getting so serious. Them, not me.

I also got the feeling that people in the SO viewed me as a cretin for being just public and because I wasn't willing to sacrifice all my worldly goods to save the planet.

No, I definitely wouldn't have gone to jail or given my life for Scn. I was too selfish.
 

uniquemand

Unbeliever
I would have. I was totally IN. If the Sea Org had accepted me, I think I would have done anything for them, because I was COMMITTED. I probably would have been one of the worst offenders, in terms of simply executing plans, given that I believed in the objective and that it was a just cause. Due to the problems I frequently had with "doubt", in terms of whether the organization was doing the right thing with Scientology, though, it would probably have been tumultuous, and I might have been off-loaded for refusal of what I thought were off-policy orders. I was a KSW enthusiast, I wrote everyone up for everything (including myself, maybe particularly myself) and then tried very hard to make everyone else go to study so that we could boom the orgs (and get some money for food).

There are things that I would and did draw the line at, like disconnecting from family or friends, but if it was "on-policy", and if it would have brought a target off on my approved "battle-plan", I would have done a great many things. Because the policies I had seen to that point basically said that "we stay within the law, and are trying for evolution, not revolution", I probably would have balked at orders to commit crimes of any kind, seeing them as violations of the law, and as opening Scientology up to attack. If it was on-policy, and legal, though, gods help those in my way.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
No, No, and no. I was NEVER that much of a fanatic!

In fact, one of my major "cognitions" on the "way out," but while I still had some belief in the usefulness of the "tech," was that (in terms of whole track, past lives, present lives -- whatever...) Hubbard was NOT my senior, my commander, my boss, my leader.

Which meant that neither were any of his lesser minions.

Great cognition. That's truly a road to freedom, rather than that "road to freedom" that is actually a road to enslavement...
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
I would have. I was totally IN. If the Sea Org had accepted me, I think I would have done anything for them, because I was COMMITTED. I probably would have been one of the worst offenders, in terms of simply executing plans, given that I believed in the objective and that it was a just cause. Due to the problems I frequently had with "doubt", in terms of whether the organization was doing the right thing with Scientology, though, it would probably have been tumultuous, and I might have been off-loaded for refusal of what I thought were off-policy orders. I was a KSW enthusiast, I wrote everyone up for everything (including myself, maybe particularly myself) and then tried very hard to make everyone else go to study so that we could boom the orgs (and get some money for food).

There are things that I would and did draw the line at, like disconnecting from family or friends, but if it was "on-policy", and if it would have brought a target off on my approved "battle-plan", I would have done a great many things. Because the policies I had seen to that point basically said that "we stay within the law, and are trying for evolution, not revolution", I probably would have balked at orders to commit crimes of any kind, seeing them as violations of the law, and as opening Scientology up to attack. If it was on-policy, and legal, though, gods help those in my way.

I was so grateful I was out-qual for the Sea Org. I would have joined. And I would have hated it and I would have wasted two to five years trying to make it go right and I would have left. I don't have that reality, that acceptance of make-a-crisis and denial of sleep.

It just doesn't strike me as a game that has any winner - if the world became what Scientology sees it should be I wouldn't want to have it. It would be humorless and abusive, unethical and untruthful, self-serving in its definitions of reality and justice, and continually insisting something is gold when it is nothing but bullshit.

And asking you to continually pay, over again, for their fuckups. Every time they get the tech wrong, yet again, they charge you yet more to fix the previous fuckup. Unbelievable.
 

GreyLensman

Silver Meritorious Patron
I joined in 1985 and it was so much fun for the first 5 years or so - then it all started getting so serious. Them, not me.

I also got the feeling that people in the SO viewed me as a cretin for being just public and because I wasn't willing to sacrifice all my worldly goods to save the planet.

No, I definitely wouldn't have gone to jail or given my life for Scn. I was too selfish.

You were too aware. Besides, by their own rules, you have to maintain a first dynamic to expand across the rest of the dynamics... At least it used to be that way, and I got away with quite a bit of havingness by insisting on that.

I would not have given my life, I would not have gone to jail. I wish I had not given up any sleep at all.
 
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Ladybird

Silver Meritorious Patron
When I first got in to scientology I was totally in awe of the "OTs" and the Sea Org. Sea Org were like Gods on earth to me, the most dedicated and elite group in scientology.


When I went back to lower orgs and missions years later as a Sea Org Missionaire, I was amazed by people who were still in the same post, and had never even heard of the RPF and didn't know the difference between Gold, the Gold Office, the CMO, CST, WDC, CLO, FSC, RTC, INCOMM, etc, etc. .

These upper Sea Org heirarchal levels are if anything MORE differentiated and elitist than the differences between public, mission, Class V org, Sea Org, PC, clear, OT, tech, admin, OEC,FEBC, SHSBC, CLASS VI,VIII,XIV, XII, OT I, II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII.. etc, etc ad infinitum.

Take a look at the grade chart, it is full of secrets you can only know if you pay in advance, and everybody knows how much you paid so that in itself gives you a certain amount of status.

NONE of it matters, as it all part of Hubbards game. Part of the whole scam is to separate people, and cut their communication with each other.

Scientology is built on a caste system, where each level looks down on the ones below, but each is led to believe they are the doing the "greatest good".


Hubbard said in "8-80" The Factors:

#29. In the opinion of the viewpoint, any beingness, any thing is better
than no thing, any effect is better than no effect, any universe better
than no universe, any particle better than no particle, but the
particle of admiration is best of all.-L. Ron Hubbard

So HIP HIP HOORAY and a nice plaster and styrofoam statue or a hand written Certification or a Plaque that was made by slaves in the Sea Org every time you make a big donation or finish a course or level.

You will be admired until next Thursday at 2PM!

If you are REALLY special, you will get a medal!

medium_tomthescientologist.jpg
 

Ladybird

Silver Meritorious Patron
Hubbard set the game up so that those at the lower levels of scientology do NOT know about the scam. Most scientologists, including most Sea Org, are true believers, and just like at each level of the Bridge, a scientologist learns more and more as he moves up the heirarchy within the cult. The experience of a public is going to be alot different from that of a Mission staff, Org staff, Sea Org, CMO, INT, etc.

LRH wrote alot of references about games, and reading them now, after I am out, I see that he really did tell us exactly what he was doing, we just didn't see that he was doing it to us.

Remember the saying "The best place to hide something is right in plain sight."? I think that is just what Hubbard did with alot of things.

This is at the end of PDC lecture 39 of 12 Dec 52 titled
"Games Processing":

"Now the caste system of games consists of this -


The Maker of Games - He has no rules, he runs by no rules.


The Players of the Game - Rules know but he obeys them.


The Assistant Players - Merely obey the players.


The Peices - Obey rules as dictated by players, but
they don't know the rules. (and then what do you know?).


And then there's Broken Pieces - They aren't even in the
game but they're still in the game (and they are in a terrible
maybe, am I in a game or am I not in a game).


Now, how to make a piece (this is how to make a piece) -


1. Deny that there is a game
2. Hide the rules from them
3. Give them all the penalties and no wins
4. Remove all goals (ALL Goals)


Enforce their playing.
Inhibit their enjoying.


Make them look like but forbid their being like players
(look like god but you can't be god).


To make a piece continue to be a piece, permit it to associate
only with pieces and deny the existence of players (never
let the PCs find out that there are players).


Now out of this you're going to get a game". ~PDC lecture 39 of 12 Dec 52 (Philadelphia Doctorate Course Lecture)
 

Freeminds

Bitter defrocked apostate
If I was properly handled with standard tech I may have flown a plane into the World Trade Towers for Scn. :omg:
. . .

What a terrifying thought. The US Government may want to re-evaluate their decision to award to Scientology the tax breaks and the legal protections normally only accorded to religions.

We know that the Scientology system is designed to produce fanatics. We know that Hubbard was a fascist at heart. We know that Scientology doesn't respect national laws if they are inconvenient. It's time the policymakers thought about the viper in their bosom.
 
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