The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Potentially yes. Not taking sides in the debate here but commenting
on the broad field of education and learning being a good thing.

I find the discussion fascinating and have some interest in being
part jewish, attended a school where half the pupils were jewish and some of my oldest friends are jewish.

I suspect the fact that Jews have done so well is in their diligence with study and education. Thus the children are exposed to the arts and literature and philosophy and if they have talent they will have the right knowledge and background to develop.

Also This background would enable them and families to get well paying professions and thus have the leisure time to explore such areas.

Note that Hitler didn't do himself any favours by rejecting "Jewish Physics". An example of very bad learning.

Yes, this is correct. What I have observed around the world is that a key element of the Jewish culture is and always has been that of education and being learned.

And you were also correct in your description of the Jewish community in England becoming part of regular society and contributing to it. And it had been going on there for some centuries.

What I do find interesting, however, is here in New York we have two broad or main classes of Jewish community.

There are the "Liberal" Jews, and these were the guys I knew growing up in Oz, who are part of regular society; contributing to it: and then there are the Hasidim (and other ultra-conservative Jews) who have separated themselves from mainstream society (as they always have) . . . and of course, they also run their "attitudes" on the rest of society.

Societal relationships vis a vis each group is quite different What's new.

In actuality, you only have to go to Israel itself to also see these two practices of the Jewish faith in massive conflict with each other . . . hell, it was an ultra-orthodox Jew who pulled an assassination on his own Jewish Prime Minister! So, in this context, it is easy to understand the conflict that has too often arisen based on this kind of insular mentality.

I personally have no angst on the scene, either way. I just wish all these silly people would honor each other and get along.

I well remember touring the lower East Side of NYC with my, at the time Jewish girlfriend (her name was Shoshana, which I'm told means "Rose" in Hebrew). We walked into a Jewish owned deli and wandered around. I was quite fascinated by the types of foods. As Shoshi and I were leaving, the big, fat Orthodox Jew owner started deliberately blocking my exit by bumping me with his belly and behaving in a manner to provoke me. Fortunately I was wise enough to not reciprocate as I am sure he either had back-up or witnesses hidden or other means to wrongly accuse me.

I called to Shoshi to tell him to "let me go."

She turned and spoke to him in Hebrew: "Give me back my boyfriend."

The guy was rather very surprised, and somewhat pissed . . . at what I don't know.

But I can tell you as a rather kindly soul toward other cultures/races . . . this guy and his behavior pissed me off and did not endear me to his people.

His is the kind of shit that alienates people and causes the kind of conflict Israel itself suffers internally.

R

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey Wrote:

Roger says, the final nails are soon be nailed into our coffin. It will be interesting to read Roger's next post!

It's on the other thread to do with economic issues . . . the "Occupy Wall Street" thread.

R

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Thanks FoTi. I will watch it. Did you see the "Frisco Kid" staring Harrison Ford and Gene Wilder shot in 1979? That movie is a comedy starting out in mid to late 19th century Poland with a group of Yiddish speaking Orthodox Jews sending one of their flock, Gene Wilder, out to San Francisco to start a synagogue out there.

There are some hilarious scenes. One is where Wilder is robbed in Pennsylvania and dumped on the ground while the robbers ride off. He is saved by a group of Amish. It is amazing that the Amish and Wilder are wearing almost identical clothing and and have almost identical beards. At first, they think they are all of one faith but the Amish begin speaking to Wilder in German and he responds in Yiddish. The languages are reasonably close but not that close and and the Amish finally figure out that Wilder is Jewish. They help him out and send him on his way.

Here is a clip from the movie. It is more Hollywood than history but is fun and entertaining. Enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kggixlEHzfE&feature=related

No Russian history in this one but I am just curious if FoTi has seen it.
Lakey

Never heard of that Gene Wilder movie. Probably because I don't like him much.
But looks like fun!

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Yes, this is correct. What I have observed around the world is that a key element of the Jewish culture is and always has been that of education and being learned.

And you were also correct in your description of the Jewish community in England becoming part of regular society and contributing to it. And it had been going on there for some centuries.

What I do find interesting, however, is here in New York we have two broad or main classes of Jewish community.

There are the "Liberal" Jews, and these were the guys I knew growing up in Oz, who are part of regular society; contributing to it: and then there are the Hasidim (and other ultra-conservative Jews) who have separated themselves from mainstream society (as they always have) . . . and of course, they also run their "attitudes" on the rest of society.

Societal relationships vis a vis each group is quite different What's new.

In actuality, you only have to go to Israel itself to also see these two practices of the Jewish faith in massive conflict with each other . . . hell, it was an ultra-orthodox Jew who pulled an assassination on his own Jewish Prime Minister! So, in this context, it is easy to understand the conflict that has too often arisen based on this kind of insular mentality.

I personally have no angst on the scene, either way. I just wish all these silly people would honor each other and get along.

I well remember touring the lower East Side of NYC with my, at the time Jewish girlfriend (her name was Shoshana, which I'm told means "Rose" in Hebrew). We walked into a Jewish owned deli and wandered around. I was quite fascinated by the types of foods. As Shoshi and I were leaving, the big, fat Orthodox Jew owner started deliberately blocking my exit by bumping me with his belly and behaving in a manner to provoke me. Fortunately I was wise enough to not reciprocate as I am sure he either had back-up or witnesses hidden or other means to wrongly accuse me.

I called to Shoshi to tell him to "let me go."

She turned and spoke to him in Hebrew: "Give me back my boyfriend."

The guy was rather very surprised, and somewhat pissed . . . at what I don't know.

But I can tell you as a rather kindly soul toward other cultures/races . . . this guy and his behavior pissed me off and did not endear me to his people.

His is the kind of shit that alienates people and causes the kind of conflict Israel itself suffers internally.

R

I think you met a rogue. I grew up near Stamford Hill in north London
much of the time in a council flat. One of our neighbours was a Hassidem
family and they were the nicest politest people there. Several times a week
I would walk through the area which was almost completely occupied by Hassidem, and occasionally on a saturday someone would come out and ask me to turn out a light swith or something. Never heard of any trouble
from this community.

About 9 months ago Had a contact from a Hassidem who wanted an auditor for his son. Had some interesting conversatiions, as he lived in
this area I came from. They have their own schools etc, seem little interested in material trappings of wealth in their houses, but possibly
interested in protecting their money. They mostly work in the Diamond business here in London. This particular guy had studied Rabbinical Law
[ if thats the correct term] so this community had its own legal system.
And its certainly true they don't mix with the rest of society much. They
are very much a minority in the brit Jewish community.

One thing about the Jews I've interacted with is that they have enormous vitality, and can probably out talk the Irish.

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

T,

The guy I referred to here in NYC was not Hasidim, but orthodox.

The Jewry of England are a class act . . . as I've said. A number are in the Peerage.

I had lots of contact with them when I was in my "007 for the Businessman Abroad" business in London. Indeed our largest clients were the Oppenheimers of DeBeers/Anglo-American fame, among others. We did the security and investigative work for the diamond community in Antwerp.

What is true of English Jewry is also true of the Jews in the Benelux countries and Scandinavia. They were and are honored among the society in which they live.

R

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: Clearing Up Some Political Issues

Ouch! Yes... We've had enough of the Hubbard management style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ivX8kjlCfc&feature=youtube_gdata_player


Sent from my iPod

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: Clearing Up Some Political Issues

Mad Men has returned to TV for another season.

[video=youtube;pyy8roNU060]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyy8roNU060&feature=youtube_gdata_player [/video]

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Oh, but I disagree with your assessment.

You were not discussing, you were asserting. In the assertion you were negating what Roger had to say. I dare say that neither one of have a direct perception of the things you are talking about. The perceptions and opinions you express are coming through others whose perceptions and motives are up for questioning.

TAJ, your self-importance button has been pushed.

As someone who knows nothing about Russian history I could find interest in the discussion--if it was a discussion. What you have going on are your educated assertions.

This is a correct observation.

TAJ has a penchant for dumping on other's offered viewpoints/info, and for personal attacks and calling them "imbeciles" or whatever it was he got a moderator rebuke for a year or so ago when he got into insulting others on a thread.

It is one thing to add information to a dialogue . . . it is another thing entirely to seek to destroy, ridicule or otherwise make wrong another or the info offered.

It happens, that in the exchange above, we both presented some facts . . . the issue is: those facts are both correct in their particular context . . . the error in these things is always in not being able to appreciate the balanced analysis and relevance of each fact as and when it applies in the sequence of events of the time and the issue it applies to.

Pulling a "fact" out of time and applying it to an incorrect time or sequence of events causes screw-ups . . . and it is a favorite tactic of the political propagandist. And it has led many a student of history astray.

Of course, refusal to investigate the validity of new info that clashes with what you think you already know is the dullest act of all.

R

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey Wrote:


It's on the other thread to do with economic issues . . . the "Occupy Wall Street" thread.

R

Great! I haven't been on that thread yet; I'll go over and check it out.

My friend Ken is friends with an Israeli name Shoshana who has been in Scientology for decades and is in her 60's now. She is into vegan eating and is still in Scientology and very happy with it. I wonder if that is the same girl whom you knew?

On the Jewish topic, I think you make a good point about the two groups. Of course there are more than two types of Jews, but the division which you made is accurate. The extremely orthodox do seem to have an arrogant mindset, tending to look down on non Jews and simply refering to them as "Goyim" (Gentiles).

I have never been involved with deeply orthodox Jews and have never even known one such person although I've seen plenty of them walking around on the streets of L.A.

Besides those types of Jews, I believe there is another type of Jew who makes a bad name for the Jewish people and that is the big stereotypical loudmouth type of Jew. It is a stereotype but still such people do exist. They are loud, boisterous and pushy and tend not to respect the traditions of other cultures. In the extreme, they refer to non Jews as "Goyem", Blacks as "Schvartzes" and have demeaning terms for Hispanics and Orientals as well,

I've seen those types out in public in public places and also while traveling. They sure do not serve as ambassadors of good will for the Jewish people.
Lakey

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey,

Yep . . . .

And it is equally true that obnoxious types exist in all races/cultures . . . hell we even saw it among our own $cientologists when we were one of them

The difference I seem to observe is that, while most other cultures take it in stride and acknowledge their class has spawn some shitheads, the Jews and the $cn go onto attack the moment anyone points out that some among them are behaving badly

And, to put it politely, this does not endear them to their neighbors

R

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

T,

The guy I referred to here in NYC was not Hasidim, but orthodox.

The Jewry of England are a class act . . . as I've said. A number are in the Peerage.

I had lots of contact with them when I was in my "007 for the Businessman Abroad" business in London. Indeed our largest clients were the Oppenheimers of DeBeers/Anglo-American fame, among others. We did the security and investigative work for the diamond community in Antwerp.

What is true of English Jewry is also true of the Jews in the Benelux countries and Scandinavia. They were and are honored among the society in which they live.

R

I remember one of my Jewish friends telling me that no matter how orthodox a jew one is you can always find one more orthodox.

What is the difference between Hassidem and orthodox? I thought the Hassidem are orthodox.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

This is a correct observation.

TAJ has a penchant for dumping on other's offered viewpoints/info, and for personal attacks and calling them "imbeciles" or whatever it was he got a moderator rebuke for a year or so ago when he got into insulting others on a thread.

It is one thing to add information to a dialogue . . . it is another thing entirely to seek to destroy, ridicule or otherwise make wrong another or the info offered.

It happens, that in the exchange above, we both presented some facts . . . the issue is: those facts are both correct in their particular context . . . the error in these things is always in not being able to appreciate the balanced analysis and relevance of each fact as and when it applies in the sequence of events of the time and the issue it applies to.

Pulling a "fact" out of time and applying it to an incorrect time or sequence of events causes screw-ups . . . and it is a favorite tactic of the political propagandist. And it has led many a student of history astray.

Of course, refusal to investigate the validity of new info that clashes with what you think you already know is the dullest act of all.

R

Your facts were only correct in the context of anti-Semitism.

You lied and you know you lied.

Saying the pogroms against the Jews were isolated incidents and that the Jews really deserved it because they wouldn't join the army is a lie. It is anti-Semitism.

You are fond of discreditng facts or other's views by saying they are only slanted liberal views or brainwashed by education.

You may be fooling a few people here, but there are many here that see you as a blubbering know-it all.

Many of us come to this board to talk about the way we were treated in Scientology; the denigration, the condescending attitude from people who actually knew very little, the idea that the world is going to hell because of conspiracies and ideas that differ from their ideas.

But people put up with it when it comes from you and a few others here like you.

I think it is a mistake to not call you on it, because in cheapens the level of discourse on this board and makes us look like hypocrites.

It gives the impression that we say it is wrong for Scientologists to be this way but it is OK for people on this board to be this way.

You slyly denigrate almost everyone who disagrees with you.

You often misquote me as you did in your response I quoted above.

You quoted me as calling people "imbeciles." I never have said that. You are a liar.

Let me say that again: You quoted me as calling people "imbeciles." I never have said that. You are a liar.

And one more time since you have trouble duplicating things: You quoted me as calling people "imbeciles." I never have said that. You are a liar.

Go ahead and quote me on this: You are a liar.

I am so glad that I never became a sad and lonely old man that is afraid of the world like you show yourself to be.

You seem afraid of ideas, education, and people.

But when I see you spreading hate in your calmly gentlemanly way, I will call you on.

No one else may, but I will.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[FoTi]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Is there going to be a duel at dawn?

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I remember one of my Jewish friends telling me that no matter how orthodox a jew one is you can always find one more orthodox.

What is the difference between Hassidem and orthodox? I thought the Hassidem are orthodox.

Jezzuzz, T . . . you're Jewish, surely you can tell the distinction when you look at them?

Don't try and convince me you are too dull to not see and appreciate the difference?

Ever notice the predominant difference of bodily structure between the too? This apart from difference of dress and specificity of religious practice and beliefs.

Yes . . . they are both "orthodox" . . . . but it's like looking at Americans of different heritage . . . they look different and behave and believe different, no?

They're both American . . . . .

R

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey,

Yep . . . .

And it is equally true that obnoxious types exist in all races/cultures . . . hell we even saw it among our own $cientologists when we were one of them

The difference I seem to observe is that, while most other cultures take it in stride and acknowledge their class has spawn some shitheads, the Jews and the $cn go onto attack the moment anyone points out that some among them are behaving badly

And, to put it politely, this does not endear them to their neighbors

R

Yes, you makes some good points. Jews have a big cross to bear in that they have been persecuted throughout their history unlike any other group on the planet. It is sort of a "which came first, the chicken or the egg" dilemma. Are the Jews so defensive because they have been so heavily persecuted or is it the other way around.

One phrase which is frequently cited when discussing what turns people against the Jews is the phrase, "Jews are God's chosen people." A lot of non Jews have a problem with this phrase and resent its implications. Some Jews counter by insisting that the statement is true while others say that the phrase does not imply that Jews are chosen because they are better than others but it only implies that they were chosen by God to bring his message to the other peoples of the world.

One thing that contributed to my abandoning the Jewish religion when I was 20 had to do with some friends of my parents. They had only one child, a son named Sandy and they were constantly bragging about him every time they came over to visit. Their whole life revolved about the achievements of their son. Some time in the mid 50's, they told my parents that they were very upset because their son was seriously dating a non Jewish girl, a "shiksa". They said that they gave him an ultimatum that either he stop dating her or they would disown him. He went ahead and married her and they made good on their threat and completely disowned him.

They meant business and never once even mentioned his name again. I was about 16 when this occurred and I it made no sense to me. They loved their son, he loved then, he met a woman and fell in love with her. How could they then "disconnect" from their son. He had broken no laws but only followed his heart. It really let a bad taste in my mouth, mostly towards the parents but a little towards Judaism.
Lakey

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Is there going to be a duel at dawn?

Na, he's just too cowardly of an old man to face anyone directly.

That's why he spews his nonsense here, because here he has an audience of guys life him.

He'll just ignore me and continue his bigoted ways.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Na, he's just too cowardly of an old man to face anyone directly.

That's why he spews his nonsense here, because here he has an audience of guys life him.

He'll just ignore me and continue his bigoted ways.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Taj,


Please don't waste any more of your valuable time with this 'issue' ... it isn't worth it, you are talking to a brick wall of condescension and longterm one-upmanship ... and it isn't going to change any time soon.


​

 

[Terril park]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Jezzuzz, T . . . you're Jewish, surely you can tell the distinction when you look at them?

Don't try and convince me you are too dull to not see and appreciate the difference?

Ever notice the predominant difference of bodily structure between the too? This apart from difference of dress and specificity of religious practice and beliefs.

Yes . . . they are both "orthodox" . . . . but it's like looking at Americans of different heritage . . . they look different and behave and believe different, no?

They're both American . . . . .

R

Miscommunication here.

Hassidem are clearly identifiable. In London.

Body structure?: Not by that in North London when I lived there. And I
see Hassidem ocasionaly here and there elsewhere. I feel an affinity above race/ religion but in seeking knowldge. Next time I see a Hassidem I'll talk to him.

Hassidem are the only " Orthodox" I ever interacted with.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Taj,


Please don't waste any more of your valuable time with this 'issue' ... it isn't worth it, you are talking to a brick wall of condescension and longterm one-upmanship ... and it isn't going to change any time soon.


​

You're right dear.

I'm better off spending my time with those who admire humanity rather than those who fear it.

In other words, I'll try to keep you and others smiling.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

You're right dear.

I'm better off spending my time with those who admire humanity rather than those who fear it.

In other words, I'll try to keep you and others smiling.

The Anabaptist Jacques

LOL! Well, nobody does that better than you ... here, watch this and smile and know that you are loved by many here on ESMB.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ojXKbYFnus

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