The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[CarmeloOrchards]

linking to articles

It's OK, Mick. I'm not offended by it. I just didn't know.

I have been posting consistently for however many years I've been on ESMB, complete quotes from news services that I have found interesting. This includes the obvious, NY Times, AP, Yahoo, Bloomberg, plus dozens of others that I have stolen from.

Mick's censorship was the first time anyone had said "boo" about this.

I do know the law about this, and the penalties, should anyone push it, are severe. I think, more for me, than ESMB, but draconian, to say the least.

Frankly, I like being quoted. I like my words spread around. If I was any of the authors, who I have stolen from, I would be happy my words were being read.

One of the raisons d'état for the Apollo thread, as we currently view it, was that I observed the huge readership that it had generated as a thread about the Apollo and Celebrity Centre, an i wanted to continue the momentum. Writing for 200 readers of something I wrote, paled in comparison, to being read by thousands.

I'm a hot dogger!

no apologies

by opening the Apollo thread to a magazine format of smart interesting authors (Ted, Roger, Dart, etc), we created a catch all forum for smart commentary.

It has been my experience that a link gets you almost zero clicks, but the full words especially with images get tons of response.

I chose outright theft of copyrighted material because more people read it.

This **link shit** will just result in less reading, LESS SHARING OF IDEAS, LESS CHANGE IN OPINIONS.

oh, well.

that's the way it goes.

One of the strengths of this message board is the **multi media** aspect. I can link and materialize personal photos, YouTube vids, and my own personal "take'" on a subject.

Sure beats e mail.

A Thousand people read this thread a day minimum.

Compared to, even, a newspaper, this thread is a drop in the bucket.

I had a client, once, who had a diaper fetish. He / she took me to an adult diaper factory, near our house. He / she took photos and posted them. She /he got 4,000 hits in the first 24 hours on his / her photo / word essay. -- Kind of puts this in perspective, doesn't it?

The Apollo thread is about rock 'n' roll of the mind. We have contributors, who rock. Using all of the multi media tools has been a part of that. Stealing from excellent authors has been a part of that.

hey, once again, no apologies, just shock at finally being stopped.

Laws are meant to be broken,

I travel a road, Hwy 17, pretty regularly. It was the road I chose to drive the day I got my learner's permit at age 15 1/2 (EXACTLY). It is a windy mountain road to the beach. I've been driving it for 46 years. i've never driven it at the speed limit. There are 40 MPH curves, that I wouldn't consider driving at less than 57MPH.

This is who I am. I'm not a good little boy. I break rules. I push the envelope. Not gonna change.

So shoot me.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: Ken Ogger, The Pilot speaks from the dead

The prod/org system and ESTO tapes are essentially the FEBC. This appears to have always been something of a failure. Pilot has said that the first FEBCs back to the orgs were destructive. I was on the 1981 FEBC
evolution, and recently was comparing notes to one who did FEBC in the nineties. I knew from a friend who was on the same FEBC evolution as I that 60% of FEBCs never returned to their org. She was told this in LA when she went for some action or other. I find from my new aquaintance
that of the 1981 FEBC evolution 20-30% were recruited into the SO and thus didn't return to the orgs! Its amazing thet really fundamental and important policies get trashed in the quest for stats.

Lots of good info in OEC/FEBC. LRH said he's solved the problem of
succession. Have the successor do the OEC/FEBC. That hasn't worked out very well!

One IMO flaw is that there is too much info. Why read the equivalent of a set of encyclopedias to be a manager? Why train so many this way? There was 400 or so on course with me, and the total would have been much greater as people finished and left and new ones arrived continuously.

Far better would be to train much fewer very thoroughly with an interneship. They could trouble shoot the rest of the orgs, just as management consultants do in non CO$ organisations.

Also an esto in every div dosn't help the tech admin ratio.

Thanks for this post Terril, Of course I did not know that the FEBC course contained both the ESTO data and the Prod/Org system. At that time, FEBC was hailed as the Admin equivalent of what the Class VIII course was to Tech. The data on what the FEBC consisted of was kept confidential at that time.

I find it very amusing that LRH said that he solved the problem of succession - have the successor do the OEC / FEBC. Look at who LRH's successor is!!! I know that DM has never done the OEC / FEBC so maybe LRH needed an undercut stating that any potential successor had to have done the OEC / FEBC. Also, prior to being eligible to even take OEC / FEBC some sort of ethics clearance should have been required. DM overcame all these tentative requirements simply by getting a Notary Public license and learning to duplicate LRH's signature!! As far as getting someone to witness his signature, he could order any staff member to do it but from what I have read, he often used Ray Mithoff.

David Fagan, who just left C of S recently has a great section in his write up of his experiences concerning DM's prerequisites for taking over as the leader of the Church from LRH.

You make an excellent point about having top execs doing an FEBC / OEC Internship! That would have been the way to go!! Nothing of that sort was ever implemented as far as I know.

Bill Franks had just come back from doing his OEC /FEBC at the Apollo while I was doing my first Dianetic Course at the L.A. Org. I had paid $1,300 (about $8k today) for the HSDC - Academy Level Package. For this fee, I was promised that I would train up to what is now Class V and would also receive my Dianetic and Grades auditing from other students while I was doing this course.

As I wrote early in this thread, the L.A. Org did not follow the Senior Policy in all Scientology - "We deliver what we promise." They attempted to reg me for thousands more to do Life Repair and Straightwire before I could receive Dianetics or my grades.

I demanded to see Bill Franks, the new FEBC, to sort out this violation of Senior Policy. Since I was brand new and knew the Senior Policy, I figured that Bill Franks would automatically be in my corner. When I told him my story, he showed no reaction or emotion and told me to wait in the back of the room while he talked to his junior. He told his junior, under his breath, that I was a "nut job" and a "trouble maker" and to body route me to the reg and make sure I paid for Life Repair and Straight Wire. Upon hearing this I snuck out a side door and jogged over to CCLA to transfer onto their lines. Up until arriving on ESMB, I always felt that Bill Franks was a dirt bag but since being on ESMB, I have learned that he was kicked out by DM himself and is actually a pretty decent and able guy.

Since Franks is a decent guy and he was fresh off of the OEC / FEBC course at Flag at the time of our run in, this illustrates that his FEBC training put more stress on going after stats and money in Scientology Orgs than it did on delivering what the Org promised. This was in Sept. - Oct. of 1970!

Why have a "Senior Policy" if your very highest training course teaches one not to honor that policy but rather go after stats and money from a brand new person?
Lakey

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

" Laws are meant to be broken ".

True enough... when one is holding the bag.

On a chatboard it might be the owners(s) of the board that are liable not so much the infringing violater of copyrighted material.

Would seem when the holder of the copyright protests the owner(s) of the board have little choice but to risk the future of the board ( in this case ESMB ) or remove the offending material.

I, for one, appreciate the mods who do their best to protect the future of ESMB for all who leave the cult.

And for those who feel they want to break the law when iy suits their fancy I do wholeheartedly 100 % agree - and wait with baited breath for them to start their own board and do as they please !

Meanwhile, thanks mods !

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: Bali

That's great.

So when you are determining what is "fair" do you consider only the bottom/ minimum wage/earnings for work done or services provided, or do you also consider the top of the scale?

that is, for example, in an economy where the minimum wage required by law is, say, $8.00/hour or around $18,000/year (before witholdings), if someone is paid, say, $180 million dollars a year (ten thousand times the minimum) for the work they did or services they provided, would you call that $180M a "fair" remuneration?

And if you would call that $180M "fair," then what is it that accounts for the difference in skill or quality of work of that high earner as compared to the minimum wage earner? is it really ten thousand times better? how -- other than by comparing $ earnings -- do you determine that difference?

In your opinion, how much of that difference in earnings can actually be attributed to a difference in skill or quality of work, and how much to other factors such as luck, privilege, or something else?

And regarding "cost of living" -- are you referring to cost of living in a hovel? or cost of living in a 10,000 'sq mansion? and what, specifically, in between those two extremes is your idea of an acceptable standard of living, the cost of which can be computed in that particular geographic location?

I believe that wide divisions in job pay often don't have much to do with skill and quality of work. There are several other factors which are often, but not always involved. Some of these items may be as follows:
1. Brilliance, inventativeness, ability to figure out what the public wants, etc.
2. Risk taking
3. Overcoming obstacles, steadfastness, not taking no for an answer.
4. Taking responsibility to bring others along with you.

Steve Jobs of Apple is a great example. The man did all of the above and created a lot of material wealth for himself, his execs, his employees and improved the living standard of the entire society in the process. Jobs wasn't lucky, he had the ability to cause big positive effects on society.

Thomas Edison, Henry Ford, Ross Perot may be some others in this category. If a person has come to their wealth through inheritance and just luck and has not really done anything to be paid a thousand times as much as other workers, then I would side with your point of view. If a person has come to great wealth through cheating and swindling others, that is even worse, much worse. Some of our illustrious politicians are in this category.

They use the knowledge obtained from knowing what new laws are going to be passed to play the markets and make big killings with almost no risk. I was pleased to see that congress voted just recently to make this practice illegal.

The issue is complex. I don't think a one size fits all solution is possible. The few people in a generation who are really brilliant and who make a big difference in uplifting society are at one extreme and crooks and swindlers are another extreme of those who are extremely rich.

Then there are those who are poor who are just plain lazy. Other poor people may work hard but try as they may, they just don't get the breaks. Others are poor due to illnesses and disabilities.

These are the extremes. In the middle lie most people. Even here, the field one is in may determine his/her wealth level more than skill level or quality produced. Lawyers are a highly paid profession. Law usually takes a lot of hard study and work to succeed at when compared to driving a bus. The lawyers should get more as a group but their pay should not be excessive.
Lakey

 

[olska]

Re: Bali

<snip>
The name of the game, as I see it, is to really fill your niche in life, to play hard to contribute your best, at what you are good at, and want to be doing. The money should never be the focus.

Obviously, we all need enough to eat and sleep in some comfort and safety, but again, those are relative values.

No doubt the people who find that, at the level they are paid, it takes at least three full-time jobs and thus all their time and energy working to earn enough to provide what you refer to as "enough to eat and sleep in some comfort and safety" would agree with you that what's really important in life is not money, but rather

filling their niche in life, playing hard, contributing their best at what they are good at and what they want to be doing...

...That is, if they've had any time and energy -- after working their three jobs (in which they make it possible for their employers to eat and sleep in comfort and safety at a "relatively" much more abundant level than that which they, the workers enjoy) and then caring for their family -- to think about it.

You wrote

I think it is a false viewpoint to ask:

"... is it better to be one of the unemployed poor (or "retired") in a rich country? or in a poor country?

... is it better to be one of the working poor in a rich country? or in a poor country?"

You're not and apparently never have been a member of the economic class of the working poor, and from what you write, it appears (to me) that you are unable to see much of anything from that viewpoint, which might be why you think it is a "false" viewpoint...

...but I think for many millions of people in this world, it's not a "false" viewpoint at all! Those are legitimate questions that might be asked and contemplated from the point from which they are looking...

...although the people who might ask those questions are probably too focused on how they are going to manage to survive to do much philosophical contemplating...

then

from my viewpoint, the question(s) should be what quality of work, of challenge, of "following your dream" are you pursuing? Where can that best be done?

I think many, if not most, of the working poor would find your viewpoint quite amusing and totally inapplicable to the reality of their situation.

But that's ok, you've nothing to fear -- they understand the difference between ignorance and evil, and would see that you're not evil, that you're a charitable man with a basically good heart.

For anyone interested in more on this subject, look up Maslow's Hierarchy.

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

" Laws are meant to be broken ".

True enough... when one is holding the bag.

On a chatboard it might be the owners(s) of the board that are liable not so much the infringing violater of copyrighted material.

Would seem when the holder of the copyright protests the owner(s) of the board have little choice but to risk the future of the board ( in this case ESMB ) or remove the offending material.

I, for one, appreciate the mods who do their best to protect the future of ESMB for all who leave the cult.

And for those who feel they want to break the law when iy suits their fancy I do wholeheartedly 100 % agree - and wait with baited breath for them to start their own board and do as they please !

Meanwhile, thanks mods !

Here. here! And being smart-ass rude to mods shows poor, very poor form.

R

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

" Laws are meant to be broken ".

True enough... when one is holding the bag.

On a chatboard it might be the owners(s) of the board that are liable not so much the infringing violater of copyrighted material.

Would seem when the holder of the copyright protests the owner(s) of the board have little choice but to risk the future of the board ( in this case ESMB ) or remove the offending material.

I, for one, appreciate the mods who do their best to protect the future of ESMB for all who leave the cult.

And for those who feel they want to break the law when iy suits their fancy I do wholeheartedly 100 % agree - and wait with baited breath for them to start their own board and do as they please !

Meanwhile, thanks mods !

you are the teacher's pet

Little Lord Fauntleroy

I never could be that good.

[video=youtube;FGQt6GY8nKA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGQt6GY8nKA[/video]

 

[Smilla]

Re: Bali

Replying to your post above, but not in order.

First, where I live, Silicon Valley, CA, no one would consider a $2.5 M house wealthy with servants. It is upper middle class. They probably had someone cleaning the house once a week.

As a basis of comparison, the house next door to us is for sale for $1.7M. It is approx 600 square feet on about 1/4 acre of land. It has a county sewer with a ten foot easement running through the length of the lot. It is fairly priced.

My point was and is that the SAME AMOUNT OF DOLLARS buys wildly different amounts of housing , food, and service.

I know homeless guys, who get $45.00 an hour for handyman work.

I have friends (this word not used loosely), who are illegal aliens, AKA "wetbacks", who own their own homes, and are paid for the quality of their work, very fairly. In the job pool, here, people are judged by the quality and speed of their work. They have done plenty of work for me, and were paid nothing even comparable to minimum wage.

I grew up on farms. At an early age, I got a healthy dose of respect for immigrants, usually illegal, and their work ethic.

I think it is a false viewpoint to ask:

"... is it better to be one of the unemployed poor (or "retired") in a rich country? or in a poor country?

... is it better to be one of the working poor in a rich country? or in a poor country?"

from my viewpoint, the question(s) should be what quality of work, of challenge, of "following your dream" are you pursuing? Where can that best be done?

Our youngest daughter, who grew up in Silicon Valley and La La Land, with her own horse from the time she was a baby,

was a member of SAG and AFTRA since she was 4, on a successful TV series (still played in reruns) got an MA from Stanford, a local university, has lived in Beijing, Shanghai, West Africa,

and currently lives and works in Haiti. * see footnote

She is making a difference in the poorest country in the western hemisphere.
More important than her pay, is the difference she makes on people, who need help. That isn't something money can quantify.

Compared to one of her brothers, who is a high school graduate (barely), she makes bupkis. Compared to her sister, a high school equivalency test completion, she really makes spare change.

The name of the game, as I see it, is to really fill your niche in life, to play hard to contribute your best, at what you are good at, and want to be doing. The money should never be the focus.

Obviously, we all need enough to eat and sleep in some comfort and safety, but again, those are relative values.

The other point being, not to be a parasite on the hard work of others. There are plenty of people, both rich and poor, who fall into this category. Tom Cruise's friend, Davey, falls into this one big time, as did his mentor, the atomic physicist and best friend of mankind.


* footnote:


DOMINICAN REPUBLIC DAILY SUMMARY

MAY, 29



POSITIVE 6 NEGATIVE 1 NEUTRAL 0



Nacion Dominicana
Martelly-Lamothe announces "Ti Manman Cheri" Program for vulnerable families
The Prime Minister, Mr. Laurent Lamothe and the First Lady of the Republic, Mrs. Sofia Martelly, representing the President of the Republic, Joseph Michel Martelly SEM, officially launched this Sunday, May 27, on the occasion of Mother's Day, the "Ti Manman Cheri" at the Joint Union School of the Apostles, in Cite Soleil, in the presence of members of the Council of Ministers and representatives of other countries.
http://lanaciondominicana.com/ver_noticia.php?id_noticia=35042&sesion_periodico=14





Agencia de Noticias Xinhua
Haitian Government launches program against extreme poverty
Haiti's government launched a program against extreme poverty with an initial fund of $ 13 million for the first year, through which seeks to ensure the education of poor children and ease the financial burden of families living in vulnerable areas, reported the Haitian Presidency. Prime Minister Laurent Lamothe and first lady of the Republic, Sophia Martelly, started the "You manman cheri" in Creole ("Dear mom" in Spanish) on Sunday on the occasion of Mother's Day, at a special event held in a school in Cite Soleil, one of the poorest in Port-au-Prince.
http://spanish.peopledaily.com.cn/31617/7830354.html





Z101 Digital
Haitian Government provides assistance to 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty
Haiti 's government launched a program of social protection to help cope with 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty throughout the country, reported the Office of Communication of the Presidency. They consist of the "Ti manman cherie" ("Mother dear"), which will allow mothers with one, two or three children each month receive 400 to 800 gourdes (9.5 to 19 U.S. dollars) to meet basic needs.
http://www.z101digital.com/app/article.aspx?id=66880





La Informacion
Haitian Government provides assistance to 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty
Haiti's government launched a program of social protection to help cope with 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty throughout the country, reported the Office of Communication of the Presidency.They consist of the "Ti manman cherie" ("Mother dear"), which will allow mothers with one, two or three children each month receive 400 to 800 gourdes (9.5 to 19 U.S. dollars) to meet basic needs.
http://noticias.lainformacion.com/p...en-en-pobreza-extrema_RZuveR1lZ0tVQLOWxbHtU2/




Diario Libre
Haitian Government provides assistance to 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty
Haiti's government launched a program of social protection to help cope with 100,000 mothers living in extreme poverty throughout the country, reported the Office of Communication of the Presidency.They consist of the "Ti manman cherie" ("Mother dear"), which will allow mothers with one, two or three children each month receive 400 to 800 gourdes (9.5 to 19 U.S. dollars) to meet basic needs.
http://www.diariolibre.com/noticias...100-000-madres-que-viven-pobreza-extrema.html

Any parent would be really proud of her. I love the photos - she looks like a great young lady.

 

[olska]

Re: Bali

<snip>

These are the extremes. In the middle lie most people. Even here, the field one is in may determine his/her wealth level more than skill level or quality produced. Lawyers are a highly paid profession. Law usually takes a lot of hard study and work to succeed at when compared to driving a bus. The lawyers should get more as a group but their pay should not be excessive.
Lakey

So who would you trust with your comfort, safety, and well-being more? A competent bus driver? or a rich lawyer?

And since you've already said the "lawyers should get more," how much more? 5 times more? 10 times more? 100 times more? 1000 times more? or "no limit" more?

Look at it from the other direction -- start with the lawyers' earnings (pick a number) -- should the bus driver get half that? one fourth? one tenth? one one-hundredth? one thousandth? or "no limit" on how low you can go and still get someone willing to drive the bus to keep from starving?

Other questions:
are some people simply "destined" to be bus drivers, while others are "destined" to be lawyers?
what if you really hate driving buses, and it's not what you are naturally good at and it's certainly not your "dream", but that's the only job or opportunity available, and you have responsibilities and the other choice is to be unemployed and entirely without funds -- should you take the job? or do... what?

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: Bali

No doubt the people who find that, at the level they are paid, it takes at least three full-time jobs and thus all their time and energy working to earn enough to provide what you refer to as "enough to eat and sleep in some comfort and safety" would agree with you that what's really important in life is not money, but rather

filling their niche in life, playing hard, contributing their best at what they are good at and what they want to be doing...

...That is, if they've had any time and energy -- after working their three jobs (in which they make it possible for their employers to eat and sleep in comfort and safety at a "relatively" much more abundant level than that which they, the workers enjoy) and then caring for their family -- to think about it.

You wrote



You're not and apparently never have been a member of the economic class of the working poor, and from what you write, it appears (to me) that you are unable to see much of anything from that viewpoint, which might be why you think it is a "false" viewpoint...

...but I think for many millions of people in this world, it's not a "false" viewpoint at all! Those are legitimate questions that might be asked and contemplated from the point from which they are looking...

...although the people who might ask those questions are probably too focused on how they are going to manage to survive to do much philosophical contemplating...

then



I think many, if not most, of the working poor would find your viewpoint quite amusing and totally inapplicable to the reality of their situation.

But that's ok, you've nothing to fear -- they understand the difference between ignorance and evil, and would see that you're not evil, that you're a charitable man with a basically good heart.

For anyone interested in more on this subject, look up Maslow's Hierarchy.

Nope, never been the "working poor."

Have lost everything a time or two.

No regrets.

i do think that hard work, persistence, personal education, and following a dream is the way to go.

In the pack of footnotes I posted, in your referenced post, there were articles of the current political leadership of Haiti going to areas in Haiti that haven't been visited by the ruling politicians in thirty years. The president of Haiti is a rock star (literally). The theme song for my daughter's program, "Ti Manman Cherie" was written and sung by someone from one of these ghettos. Because of his brilliance, he is now represented by the president's own manager.

People, whether high or low on the totem pole of life are living their dreams.

I've been in the position to sleep in my truck for months on end. Not a big deal. I'm not stupid, not crippled, not mentally "off" - there just isn't too deep a rock bottom for me.

in Haiti, people eat rocks and mud to stave off hunger. Disease is wildly present. I'm so glad to hear I'm not evil, just ignorant. Within a couple of months, I'll be in Haiti building houses for people, very much worse off than I've ever been.

Since you seem to be judging me for my life, what exactly have you done for others?

I have children, step children, and grandchildren, who are hard working, hard playing members of the world community.

I never had the smarts to get stuck in the Co$, just took what I wanted (Clear, briefing course and friendships) that have stood me well over the decades. I was repairing pumps, tractors trucks, and cars, picking cherries, apricots, and walnuts shortly after learning to walk, collecting eggs, putting in sewer lines, water, electrical, and cutting up beef, fish, chicken, venison, and pork, repairing fences and going to school through my childhood. I had opportunities that few would even avail themselves of, if they were given the opportunity.

I have friends, who crawled through sewers to get to the USA, who risked their lives, quite literally, to be here. Just out of curiosity, do you even know an illegal alien? Are you yourself, homeless? What is your story? that you can judge me by?

Do you have a job? Usually someone pointing a finger has several pointing back at themselves.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: Bali

So who would you trust with your comfort, safety, and well-being more? A competent bus driver? or a rich lawyer?

And since you've already said the "lawyers should get more," how much more? 5 times more? 10 times more? 100 times more? 1000 times more? or "no limit" more?

Look at it from the other direction -- start with the lawyers' earnings (pick a number) -- should the bus driver get half that? one fourth? one tenth? one one-hundredth? one thousandth? or "no limit" on how low you can go and still get someone willing to drive the bus to keep from starving?

Other questions:
are some people simply "destined" to be bus drivers, while others are "destined" to be lawyers?
what if you really hate driving buses, and it's not what you are naturally good at and it's certainly not your "dream", but that's the only job or opportunity available, and you have responsibilities and the other choice is to be unemployed and entirely without funds -- should you take the job? or do... what?

what do you have when you have a lawyer buried up to his head in sand?

not enough sand.

 

[Smilla]

Re: Bali

That's great.

Well you asked, so I'll answer. We employ various people, but for the sake of simplicity, I'll stick to our cook. She works 30 hours a week, and we are very finicky about not letting her work more than that. Outside those hours, I cook.

So when you are determining what is "fair" do you consider only the bottom/ minimum wage/earnings for work done or services provided, or do you also consider the top of the scale?

I actually don't consider minimum wage at all, because I realise that if I want to employ somebody who is really good, that person deserves to be be well-paid - by *their* standards. Before she worked for us she had been to catering school and had worked as a chef in a very good restaurant. That justifies higher pay. We are all vegetarian or vegan, and eat a Middle-Eastern diet. That's pretty specialised, so that justifies higher pay. We pay her about 20% more than a good chef earns in a good restaurant in this country, and much more than she could ever earn as a cook in her own country. She also receives these benefits on top of her wage:

A nicely furnished, spacious flat, with all the ameneties, rent-free.
All utility bills paid for her, including telephone and internet.
Use of a car anytime she wants one - gas provided by us.
One day a week in college studying a subject of her choice, paid for by us.
A credit card account we settle for reasonable clothing, shoes, and other personal needs, such as toiletries and cosmetics.
Any medical needs not covered by regular medical insurance, such as reflexology and aromatherapy, which she likes.
Visits from her family twice a year - flight and accomodation paid for by us - they stay with us/her.
Six weeks paid holiday a year.

What all that means is that most of what we pay her in money, she can put away for whatever she decides to do next, which is eventually to open a classy restaurant in her home country.

We think we pay her well, and so does she.

That is, for example, in an economy where the minimum wage required by law is, say, $8.00/hour or around $18,000/year (before witholdings), if someone is paid, say, $180 million dollars a year (ten thousand times the minimum) for the work they did or services they provided, would you call that $180M a "fair" remuneration?

It would depend on what that person is being paid $180M to do. Honestly speaking, I haven't a clue.

And if you would call that $180M "fair," then what is it that accounts for the difference in skill or quality of work of that high earner as compared to the minimum wage earner? is it really ten thousand times better? how -- other than by comparing $ earnings -- do you determine that difference?

I know rock musicians who have made and make, stupendous amounts of money - really really *lots* of money. Lots of people love their music, buy everything they record, and go to every concert they can get to. I consider what they earn to be fair. *Only they can produce what they produce.*

In your opinion, how much of that difference in earnings can actually be attributed to a difference in skill or quality of work, and how much to other factors such as luck, privilege, or something else?

In the above example, it's mostly skill and quality of work, some luck, and not much privelige.

And regarding "cost of living" -- are you referring to cost of living in a hovel? or cost of living in a 10,000 'sq mansion? and what, specifically, in between those two extremes is your idea of an acceptable standard of living, the cost of which can be computed in that particular geographic location?

*An acceptable standard of living* means to me a spacious, well-heated/air-conditioned, well maintained home, with a garden, all the amenities, in-home recreation space and requirements, such as a games or art room, maybe a piano or other musical instruments, a healthy and enjoyable diet based around organic foods, momey to spend on ones own education, all healthcare facilities, books, music, a vehicle of some kind (doesn't have to be fancy) decent clothes, outside entertainments, holidays and days out, enough income for the education of any children, enough income to save for for an enjoyable and secure retirement. And last but not least, enough income to be able to give generously to charity.

As an aside, everybody in our family gives a minimum 10% of their income to charity, and we all started doing this at the age of 7, out of our not-very-big pocketmoney allowances. We have a family meeting once a year to choose which charities we will support in the coming year. Charity is very important to us.

(It is interesting to me that the hebrew word for a righteous (person) Tzadik, comes from the same root as the hebrew word for charity,Tzedekah. The root word is Tzedek, meaning fairness and justice.)

So I think we treat our cook well. Am I right? If not, why not?

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Here. here! And being smart-ass rude to mods shows poor, very poor form.

R

I resemble that remark !

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

you are the teacher's pet

<snip>

Yes, and this little 'pet' gets sent to the coatroom every now & then

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Yes, and this little 'pet' gets sent to the coatroom every now & then

to play "Post Office"?

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

to play "Post Office"?

LOL ! Is that why it makes my butt sore ?

I never knew THAT was what that game was called !

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: Bali

what do you have when you have a lawyer buried up to his head in sand?

not enough sand.

what's the difference between a lawyer and a skunk, both killed on the highway?

there are skid marks before the skunk got hit.

 

[Smilla]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Definition of a lawyer: Someone who can write blackmail letters in Latin.

 

[CarmeloOrchards]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

LOL ! Is that why it makes my butt sore ?

I never knew THAT was what that game was called !

I'm sorry, I made a false assumption.

This must be what you are talking about:

I was talking about a kissing game.

 

[Smilla]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

And now after 15,259 posts, we get to see what this thread is really about