The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey, I know you don't want to hear (read) this, but I think you've fallen for some strange frequency-Voodoo. I've put your words to the test:

1. I took one of the concert guitars I have here, tuned it to exactly A= 440 Hz, played a song, then tuned it to A=432 Hz and played the same song. The result was what I expected: At 432 Hz the Guitar was a bit easier to play, sounded a little smoother and a bit more muddy, due to the slightly lower string tension. That's all. Guitar vendors all over the world tune their instruments a little lower for that exact reason: They're easier to play and (the instrument's as well as the player's) mistakes are less audible. Which, by the way, is the reason why I always carry a good digital tuner with me, when I shop for instruments.

2. I replayed a stored Classical and a stored Blues song on an electric piano at A= 440 Hz and at A=432 Hz, and although the difference in the same songs was audible when switching between these two tunings, it had no emotional effect on me. You may blame my almost 40 years on stage for that.

So yeah, I think it's just Voodoo which has no real effect on anybody.

You have a computer, right? Try it yourself, download Audacity and tune any recorded song to whatever you like. The program is free for personal use and it's available for all major platforms, AFAIK.

Oh, and about discord: Did you ever look inside a piano? Did you ever tune one? Most keys have 3 strings/key. Tune all 3 strings of any keys to their exact same frequency. What do you get? An extremely dull sounding piano at best. You don't need to believe me, you can just try it yourself. An acceptable digital chromatic tuner shouldn't cost you more than 25 bucks.

But don't come running to me when your piano sounds like shit, after you've tried that.

, MrN

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey, I know you don't want to hear (read) this, but I think you've fallen for some strange frequency-Voodoo. I've put your words to the test:

1. I took one of the concert guitars I have here, tuned it to exactly A= 440 Hz, played a song, then tuned it to A=432 Hz and played the same song. The result was what I expected: At 432 Hz the Guitar was a bit easier to play, sounded a little smoother and a bit more muddy, due to the slightly lower string tension. That's all. Guitar vendors all over the world tune their instruments a little lower for that exact reason: They're easier to play and (the instrument's as well as the player's) mistakes are less audible. Which, by the way, is the reason why I always carry a good digital tuner with me, when I shop for instruments.

2. I replayed a stored Classical and a stored Blues song on an electric piano at A= 440 Hz and at A=432 Hz, and although the difference in the same songs was audible when switching between these two tunings, it had no emotional effect on me. You may blame my almost 40 years on stage for that.

So yeah, I think it's just Voodoo which has no real effect on anybody.

You have a computer, right? Try it yourself, download Audacity and tune any recorded song to whatever you like. The program is free for personal use and it's available for all major platforms, AFAIK.

Oh, and about discord: Did you ever look inside a piano? Did you ever tune one? Most keys have 3 strings/key. Tune all 3 strings of any keys to their exact same frequency. What do you get? An extremely dull sounding piano at best. You don't need to believe me, you can just try it yourself. An acceptable digital chromatic tuner shouldn't cost you more than 25 bucks.

But don't come running to me when your piano sounds like shit, after you've tried that.

, MrN

OK, Mr N . . .

With 40 years on stage as a musician I believe you

This patter reminds me of when I played the fiddle for a while. One of the things told to me is that all violins have what is called a "wolf tone" . . . . that is a particular pitch that sets up a discordant resonance that results in a rather off pitch ugly sound . . . .

Good violins simply are lucky enough to not have the "wolf tone" on a needed regular "note."

Ummm, not that I know whether I hit one of these things . . . I didn't have a good fiddle, and my playing was rather rotten anyway

Rog

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

OK, Mr N . . .

With 40 years on stage as a musician I believe you

This patter reminds me of when I played the fiddle for a while. One of the things told to me is that all violins have what is called a "wolf tone" . . . . that is a particular pitch that sets up a discordant resonance that results in a rather off pitch ugly sound . . . .

Good violins simply are lucky enough to not have the "wolf tone" on a needed regular "note."

Ummm, not that I know whether I hit one of these things . . . I didn't have a good fiddle, and my playing was rather rotten anyway

Rog

Hi Rog,

If I understood you correctly, these "discordant resonances" (in acoustic or semi-acoustic instruments) you speak of, are usually the result of one or more improperly glued joints, for example a loose brace inside the instrument. If it's that what you mean, then yeah, one of my instruments (actually the one in my avatar here) has quite a few of these wolf tones. But it's a really cheap Chinese instrument anyway, and fixing it would cost more than buying a better one - So I use it for some show effects and use better instruments for the real work.

On an instrument of reasonable quality, resonance frequencies shouldn't be a problem - at least not a big one.

 

[Smilla]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Hi Rog,

If I understood you correctly, these "discordant resonances" (in acoustic or semi-acoustic instruments) you speak of, are usually the result of one or more improperly glued joints, for example a loose brace inside the instrument. If it's that what you mean, then yeah, one of my instruments (actually the one in my avatar here) has quite a few of these wolf tones. But it's a really cheap Chinese instrument anyway, and fixing it would cost more than buying a better one - So I use it for some show effects and use better instruments for the real work.

On an instrument of reasonable quality, resonance frequencies shouldn't be a problem - at least not a big one.

Very true about the glue.

As a violinist I've had the best people set up my violins for me. It's a highly skilled job which involves taking very fine measurements and making painstaking adjustments. It's got a lot to do with ratios. The main thing is finding out where the soundpost should be and the construction of a bridge which brings out the best of the instrument. There's other things that need looking at, but the bridge and soundpost are the main things. Those setups cost hundreds of dollars.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lakey, I know you don't want to hear (read) this, but I think you've fallen for some strange frequency-Voodoo. I've put your words to the test:

1. I took one of the concert guitars I have here, tuned it to exactly A= 440 Hz, played a song, then tuned it to A=432 Hz and played the same song. The result was what I expected: At 432 Hz the Guitar was a bit easier to play, sounded a little smoother and a bit more muddy, due to the slightly lower string tension. That's all. Guitar vendors all over the world tune their instruments a little lower for that exact reason: They're easier to play and (the instrument's as well as the player's) mistakes are less audible. Which, by the way, is the reason why I always carry a good digital tuner with me, when I shop for instruments.

2. I replayed a stored Classical and a stored Blues song on an electric piano at A= 440 Hz and at A=432 Hz, and although the difference in the same songs was audible when switching between these two tunings, it had no emotional effect on me. You may blame my almost 40 years on stage for that.

So yeah, I think it's just Voodoo which has no real effect on anybody.

You have a computer, right? Try it yourself, download Audacity and tune any recorded song to whatever you like. The program is free for personal use and it's available for all major platforms, AFAIK.

Oh, and about discord: Did you ever look inside a piano? Did you ever tune one? Most keys have 3 strings/key. Tune all 3 strings of any keys to their exact same frequency. What do you get? An extremely dull sounding piano at best. You don't need to believe me, you can just try it yourself. An acceptable digital chromatic tuner shouldn't cost you more than 25 bucks.

But don't come running to me when your piano sounds like shit, after you've tried that.

, MrN

Quite the contrary, I was happy to receive your info. Well, its taking a while but at least I got one piece of info off of my original post. I found out that changing from 440 Hz to 432 Hz had no emotional effect on YOU. I have already found out that it has an enormous emotional effect on ME. I appreciate your reply but just the two of us are too small of a sample size to arrive at any meaningful conclusion.

Just your one experience is not sufficient to declare it Voodoo and assert it has no effect on anybody. Your assertion reminds me very much of Mark Baker's pedantic M.O.. I already wrote that it has an enormous affect on me and ditto for the people who put on the class I attended. It had an effect on the group Pink Floyd and Gregorian Chants were written to be played at 432 Hz. There is quite a lot of literature out there on the subject. The country of Italy tried to make 432 Hz the world standard back in 1880 which is a fact I learned while reading up on the subject..

I realize that you are a professional musician, Smila, and because of that, your opinion carries more weight than the average person but even so, the opinion of just one professional is not enough of a sampling to reach any conclusion.

Just playing the video of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"at 432 Hz, the emotional impact of that beautiful song on me increased at least double. Did you listen to any of the videos I posted as examples? Probably no one bothered to do that based on all the replies I have received.

On your other point about the piano notes all being strung with three strings, I am not at all well versed in piano making and I am not going to take the time to research the subject just to reply to your post but I offer this response.

First, I just used the piano as an example because nearly everyone is familiar with it and knows it has 88 keys. My remarks apply to ALL musical instruments, so citing the stringing of the piano doesn't prove much about instruments in general.

That being said, I am going to stick my neck out and venture the opinion that the three strings tied together for each piano note have to do with enriching the tone of a piano note by causing a series of overtones to sound in addition to the main note being struck.

Here is a definition of overtones:

Overtone - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster ...
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overtone
Definition of OVERTONE. 1. a: one of the higher tones produced simultaneously with the fundamental and that with the fundamental comprise a complex musical tone ..

This phenomena is independent of the vibration of middle A. For both 440 Hz and 432 Hz settings there will be overtones produced.

One can hold a key down on the piano, say middle A. When this is done, the damper is being held down. You can then go one octave higher to the next A
and strike it and that note will not have any overtones because they are damped out. As you say, without any overtones, notes lack much color and beauty.
Lakey

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Quite the contrary, I was happy to receive your info. Well, its taking a while but at least I got one piece of info off of my original post. I found out that changing from 440 Hz to 432 Hz had no emotional effect on YOU. I have already found out that it has an enormous emotional effect on ME. I appreciate your reply but just the two of us are too small of a sample size to arrive at any meaningful conclusion.

Just your one experience is not sufficient to declare it Voodoo and assert it has no effect on anybody. Your assertion reminds me very much of Mark Baker's pedantic M.O.. I already wrote that it has an enormous affect on me and ditto for the people who put on the class I attended. It had an effect on the group Pink Floyd and Gregorian Chants were written to be played at 432 Hz. There is quite a lot of literature out there on the subject. The country of Italy tried to make 432 Hz the world standard back in 1880 which is a fact I learned while reading up on the subject..

I realize that you are a professional musician, Smila, and because of that, your opinion carries more weight than the average person but even so, the opinion of just one professional is not enough of a sampling to reach any conclusion.

Just playing the video of "Somewhere Over the Rainbow"at 432 Hz, the emotional impact of that beautiful song on me increased at least double. Did you listen to any of the videos I posted as examples? Probably no one bothered to do that based on all the replies I have received.

On your other point about the piano notes all being strung with three strings, I am not at all well versed in piano making and I am not going to take the time to research the subject just to reply to your post but I offer this response.

First, I just used the piano as an example because nearly everyone is familiar with it and knows it has 88 keys. My remarks apply to ALL musical instruments, so citing the stringing of the piano doesn't prove much about instruments in general.

That being said, I am going to stick my neck out and venture the opinion that the three strings tied together for each piano note have to do with enriching the tone of a piano note by causing a series of overtones to sound in addition to the main note being struck.

Here is a definition of overtones:

Overtone - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster ...
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/overtone
Definition of OVERTONE. 1. a: one of the higher tones produced simultaneously with the fundamental and that with the fundamental comprise a complex musical tone ..

This phenomena is independent of the vibration of middle A. For both 440 Hz and 432 Hz settings there will be overtones produced.

One can hold a key down on the piano, say middle A. When this is done, the damper is being held down. You can then go one octave higher to the next A
and strike it and that note will not have any overtones because they are damped out. As you say, without any overtones, notes lack much color and beauty.
Lakey

P.S. - I came across this topic, thought it was interesting and non controversial and put it up for discussion. Most of the posts I got back are gibberish or smear attacks against me. I state that I notice a tremendous difference when I hear music at 432 Hz and people write back that the whole thing is Voodoo and nobody notices any differences. Lovely, impose your own reality on someone else and obliterate his reality in the process! Once the board starts becoming dominated by pedants who decree what reality is and impose their reality on others, I think it is time to say Sayonara!

I would quit right now but I'll stick around a little longer just to prevent people such as Toady from claiming a victory in getting me off of ESMB. Call it a games conditioning if you like because that is what it is. Posting here is a bore, the caliber of the posting has lowered substantially and many of the better posters have already quit posting here. Corporate Scientology has been drastically weakened over the last 3 years and appears to be on its way out. A couple more big money grabs before they go under and then they will be ready to completely implode. Those of us who posted here to weaken them have been successful to a large degree. Peace!

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Very true about the glue.

As a violinist I've had the best people set up my violins for me. It's a highly skilled job which involves taking very fine measurements and making painstaking adjustments.

Well, "fine adjustments" is relative - when setting a soundpost, 1/4 mm tolerance should be good enough. When building optical devices, 1/1000 mm isn't enough. But yes, it's a really painstaking process.

It's got a lot to do with ratios. The main thing is finding out where the soundpost should be

Ugh, the soundpost.... Good thing that I rarely deal with new violins. In fact I rarely have to do with any violins at all. However, I've had to reset the soundbars of upright basses a few times, and that was not a 10-minute-job.

and the construction of a bridge which brings out the best of the instrument.

Not mentioning my 1st upright-bass-bridge, which took me weeks before I got it right.That was quite a learning experience.

Right now I'm experimenting with bone-saddles for concert guitars, and that stinks - literally. Good thing that it's warm enough to work outside, ATM.

There's other things that need looking at, but the bridge and soundpost are the main things.

Indeed, there's a lot of stuff to look at, and bad glue joints are the easiest to discover. Usually, one knock knock test is enough. Some other resonating failures are are much harder to find. A misplaced soundpost for example.

Those setups cost hundreds of dollars.

And rightfully so.

 

[Smilla]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

P.S. - I came across this topic, thought it was interesting and non controversial and put it up for discussion. Most of the posts I got back are gibberish or smear attacks against me. I state that I notice a tremendous difference when I hear music at 432 Hz and people write back that the whole thing is Voodoo and nobody notices any differences. Lovely, impose your own reality on someone else and obliterate his reality in the process! Once the board starts becoming dominated by pedants who decree what reality is and impose their reality on others, I think it is time to say Sayonara!

I would quit right now but I'll stick around a little longer just to prevent people such as Toady from claiming a victory in getting me off of ESMB. Call it a games conditioning if you like because that is what it is. Posting here is a bore, the caliber of the posting has lowered substantially and many of the better posters have already quit posting here. Corporate Scientology has beenj drastically weakened over the last 3 years and appears to be on its way out. A couple more big money grabs before they go under and then they will be ready to completely implode. Those of us who posted here to weaken them have been successful to a large degree. Peace!

Your perceptions belong to you. You posted what you perceived. People's perceptions of the same thing are often different one from the other, so there's no problem if they don't agree.

And never forget: Reality is an opinion.

 

[RogerB]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Smilla and Mr. N . . .

In the violin "wolf tones" . . . ya you are each correct . . . but the thing about a violin versus a guitar is that, where the guitar is plucked and the actual causing of the resonance in the sound box is short term, in the case of the violin the causing of the resonance is maintained via the continued bowing and this can set up an out-of-phase resonances (due to sound returning/reverberating different distances within the box) that themselves set up secondary, even tertiary, harmonic resonances . . .

This explained to me by an old violin maker in Sydney many moons ago. . . . In good violins it's hardly noticed even when it occurs on the notes of the particular instrument. But on lesser instruments it can be quite an ugly sound.

Harmonic resonance can be a real bitch . . . it's been known to bring down a huge road bridge over the the Tacoma Narrows

Look at this vid of it:

[video=youtube;j-zczJXSxnw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw[/video]

This caused by a steady wind at the "required constant speed" . . . same thing occurs when you hear overhead wires humming in the wind.

The worst is the airconditioner nearby my apartment . . . not only does it have the underlying and main hum and vibration of the coolant pump but it sets up a harmonic sound sound that is much louder (the sound waves get reinforced on a harmonic cycle that is a multiple or divisor of the underlying main sound) . . . the cycle of the harmonic sound is something in the order of 5-10 per second versus the vibration rate of the pump likely in the range of 100 per second.

Rog

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Your perceptions belong to you. You posted what you perceived. People's perceptions of the same thing are often different one from the other, so there's no problem if they don't agree.

And never forget: Reality is an opinion.

Smilia,

This is where I disagree with you.

Reality is not an opinion.

We have different opinions and interpretations about what reality is, and I don't think any of us have discovered the truth about reality.

But to believe that reality is an opinion may lead to dangerous consequences.

And that is so evident in today's post-modern world.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Smilla]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Smilia,

This is where I disagree with you.

Reality is not an opinion.

We have different opinions and interpretations about what reality is, and I don't think any of us have discovered the truth about reality.

But to believe that reality is an opinion may lead to dangerous consequences.

And that is so evident in today's post-modern world.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Dangerous consequences for whom?

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Dangerous consequences for whom?

For the individual and mankind.

If you think that reality is an opinion then you are pressuming there is no such thing as objective truth, nor Truth with a capital T.

That's pure Nietzsche and Gorgias and Derrida.

And if this is the case then there is no basis for justice.

What is true for you may or may not be true.

But it is not true simply because we think or feel it is true.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Smilla]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

For the individual and mankind.

If you think that reality is an opinion then you are pressuming there is no such thing as objective truth, nor Truth with a capital T.

That's pure Nietzsche and Gorgias and Derrida.

And if this is the case then there is no basis for justice.

What is true for you may or may not be true.

But it is not true simply because we think or feel it is true.

The Anabaptist Jacques

If two people perceive the same thing radically differently, as often seen in court testimony, what does that say about the nature of reality, and are their accounts not opinion?

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

My ( AKA Farting Toady ) J & D replies in blue:

P.S. - I came across this topic, thought

OUCH !

it was interesting and non controversial and put it up for discussion. Most of the posts I got back are gibberish or smear attacks against me.

That 440 is a single tone that can not be discordant with itself is not gibberish or a smear. Please stop trying to make others wrong for what you can not grasp.

PS : Lakey, have someone who speaks slowly explain to you the "cord" part of discordant.

I state that I notice a tremendous difference when I hear music at 432 Hz and people

How did a person become people ? Is that a generality ?

write back that the whole thing is Voodoo and nobody

How did one person noting that change to "nobody" ?

notices any differences. Lovely, impose your own reality on someone else and obliterate his reality in the process! Once the board starts becoming dominated by pedants who decree what reality is and impose their reality on others,

Mirror , mirror on the wall .....


I think it is time to say Sayonara!

I second that motion !


I would quit right now but I'll stick around a little longer just to prevent people such as Toady from claiming a victory in getting me off of ESMB.

Alas. Thought you would have figured out Toady likes playing with you.


Call it a games conditioning if you like because that is what it is. Posting here is a bore,

If it is a bore to post here why do you continue to do it ? For the edification of dummies like me ? You can leave. I'll get by.

the caliber of the posting has lowered substantially

Yeah . agree. used to be lots of 30 cal semi-auromatic rifles & now it is left to mainly your single shot Red Ryder BB gun !


and many of the better posters have already quit posting here.

Yep. Somebody ran the better posters off. Who was that ?

Corporate Scientology has been drastically weakened over the last 3 years and appears to be on its way out. A couple more big money grabs before they go under and then they will be ready to completely implode. Those of us who posted here to weaken them have been successful to a large degree.

Yes! Boy Howdy discussion of notes at 432 & movies clips & pieces of opera by you sure folder\d that corporate scientology ! Yes Sir ! Right here on this very thread scientology was imploded in only 3 years after it survived all other comers for 60 years !

Peace!

And Peace to you. This was a fun way to start today.

I'll do a toast ( after the roast ) and probably decide to abandon this thread.

Beam ne up Scotty !

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Your perceptions belong to you. You posted what you perceived. People's perceptions of the same thing are often different one from the other, so there's no problem if they don't agree.

And never forget: Reality is an opinion.

For a very intelligent woman you have a penchant for missing points which I am making. Of course there's no problem if two people's realities don't agree but that has nothing to do with my complaint with what you stated.

What you stated was, "So yeah, I think it's just Voodoo which has no real effect on anybody." Do you see my point, I'm totally happy with us having different realities or opinions on something but I object to your follow up statement which sort of equates me to nobody and suggests that my opinion is not real.

It's only that one statement which I highlighted in blue which I find offensive. The rest of your post was spot on with me.
Lakey

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

For a very intelligent woman you have a penchant for missing points which I am making.

Some of your "points", uh, miss the mark.

Of course there's no problem if two people's realities don't agree but that has nothing to do with my complaint with what you stated.

What you stated was, "So yeah, I think it's just Voodoo which has no real effect on anybody." Do you see my point, I'm totally happy with us having different realities or opinions on something but I object to your follow up statement which sort of equates me to nobody and suggests that my opinion is not real.

It's only that one statement which I highlighted in blue which I find offensive. The rest of your post was spot on with me.

Lord only knows why all throughout this thread you point out what you feel is " spot on " or you agree with as if your opinion is special. Didn't ahyone ever tell you that opinions are like assholes, everybody got one and most of 'em stink?
Lakey

Now go all 3rd grade again and give me yet another a "dislike"


Or are you doing those marks is a scientological sense and giving me a red tag ? :dance2:


I do love it when you hit that "dislike" button. I laugh & show it off & no, I will not give you any of 'em

Please have yet another :hisseyfit: ...............

 

[MrNobody]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

For a very intelligent woman you have a penchant for missing points which I am making. Of course there's no problem if two people's realities don't agree but that has nothing to do with my complaint with what you stated.

What you stated was, "So yeah, I think it's just Voodoo which has no real effect on anybody." Do you see my point, I'm totally happy with us having different realities or opinions on something but I object to your follow up statement which sort of equates me to nobody and suggests that my opinion is not real.

It's only that one statement which I highlighted in blue which I find offensive. The rest of your post was spot on with me.
Lakey

Just for clarification, I quote myself:

<snip>

So yeah, I think it's just Voodoo which has no real effect on anybody.
<snip>

So it can be easily confirmed that it was me who said that, not Smilla. :wink2:

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Just for clarification, I quote myself:



So it can be easily confirmed that it was me who said that, not Smilla. :wink2:

Please do not confuse his alteration filled rants by introducing the facts !


You'd change the humor we all get to enjoy !

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

If two people perceive the same thing radically differently, as often seen in court testimony, what does that say about the nature of reality, and are their accounts not opinion?

It says nothing about the nature of reality; it says everything about people's observation and interpretation of reality.

Reality is outside of your head.

Our minds perceive the world and actively formats our perceptions with such concepts as cause and effect and space and time.

After the interpretation of what we have actively observed we form interpretations of it.

But our opinions are not reality.

The moon is there whether or not you see, think about it, or imagine it, or even if you were never born.

The moon is not simply your opinion.

Any thoughts you have about the moon are opinion and when people discuss their opinions a general agreement as to what is there is arrived at with varrying degrees.

But that is consensus of opinions and that is not what reality is but only what reality is thought to be.

Over time, through necessity and curiousity mankind has endeavored to learn more about reality.

But eveything science and traditional beliefs interpret about reality is still human thought.

Science just looks at the measurable world and interprets it, but its interpretations are just that, interpretations--not reality.

Traditional beliefs have interpretations about reality and sometimes, although not often, they adapt to new knowledge.

But its interpretations are just that, interpretations--not reality.


The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

It says nothing about the nature of reality; it says everything about people's observation and interpretation of reality.

Reality is outside of your head.

Our minds perceive the world and actively formats our perceptions with such concepts as cause and effect and space and time.

After the interpretation of what we have actively observed we form interpretations of it.

But our opinions are not reality.

The moon is there whether or not you see, think about it, or imagine it, or even if you were never born.

The moon is not simply your opinion.

Any thoughts you have about the moon are opinion and when people discuss their opinions a general agreement as to what is there is arrived at with varrying degrees.

But that is consensus of opinions and that is not what reality is but only what reality is thought to be.

Over time, through necessity and curiousity mankind has endeavored to learn more about reality.

But eveything science and traditional beliefs interpret about reality is still human thought.

Science just looks at the measurable world and interprets it, but its interpretations are just that, interpretations--not reality.

Traditional beliefs have interpretations about reality and sometimes, although not often, they adapt to new knowledge.

But its interpretations are just that, interpretations--not reality.


The Anabaptist Jacques

TAJ, thank you that was so extremely well put !

If my friend Lakey reads, understands, & applies that post I'll be a happy man today !


TTFN