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Scientology is all bad

MrNobody

Who needs merits?
OK, thanks for continuing the conversation.

Ugh, would you please stop using this obvious "TR-Tech" already? Thank You! :coolwink:

But I ask, if I am a "troll", why does it matter? I ask that because we are having a conversation, that is all. And if I was a "troll" would it influence our conversation or would it not influence our conversation? And if I was a "troll", then what harm would it do to you if true or not? Does it matter?

Yes, it does matter. Purpose of a troll is trolling, that's all. The harm would be that almost no useful useful discussion could take place while a troll is around.

I ain't putting yah on a emeter to tell all, yah know?

You wouldn't even dare to try that on me, you can trust me on that one. :biggrin:
 
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HelluvaHoax!

Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
--snipped--

It's kind of unfortunate that the actual scientologists who visit here get driven off so quickly. Perhaps, if they'd stick around, I wouldn't have to be the one to mention these things. I like balance.


In a certain way, I can understand that.

But how can the conversations be contrived to keep them here unless they are embedded with "shore stories" that "gradiently" attempt to "handle" them?

Isn't that the problem with Scientology? That people aren't allowed to say what they are really thinking--or worse, that they purposefully give "acceptable truths" to lure others in the front door without saying what Scientology really is or how much it costs in time/money?
 

phenomanon

Canyon
I strongly suspect that is exactly why so much effort is expended by so few to make just such potential new posters feel unwelcome early on. God forbid there should actually be a fair & open discussion on the board with a goal of increasing rational understanding rather than simply promoting factionalism.


Mark A. Baker :coolwink:

I like your post because it expresses a view that puts me at ease a bit about making a fool of myself after such a short time here. I got a trick question, and I responded repeatedly to a troll. Hell, if I want to feel a fool I can go back to cofs.
I am thinking I'll just go back to lurk mode. At least there I won't show my ass.

phenomanon
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
. . . FWIW, I don't know where people claim that hypnosis takes place in Scientology but it was not at the levels to which I was trained or processed. I was never hypnotized as a preclear nor did I ever hypnotize my preclears. I will never agree with the notion that a question like "recall a time when you were happy" might have caused irrepairable damage to anyone's psyche. :p There is some introspection and introversion that occurs when you're on the receiving end of processing, but I have experienced that same state of mind when engaged in a soul-searching conversation with a friend, or when absorbed in a painting. It's a natural side effect of self-examination to feel extroverted and more at ease in your own skin once you string a thing or two together. Hubbard laid claim to it as HIS result, the result of HIS tech. Since Scientologists have limited if any background in psychology or psychotherapy (because an extensive history makes you unqualified to receive auditing) it was an easy sell. Of course, it was also a big fat lie. But that really did take me a good chunk of time to figure out . ..

The use of hypnotism is far from a "claim". It was a finding by a government enquiry at which expert witnesses provided ample evidence. An object examination shows clearly that Auditing does induce an hypnotic-like trance state which is used to implant and reinforce Scientology "think" and to protect the wider fraud. Have you read the Anderson Report's findings about this:
" . . . The Board heard expert evidence in relation to hypnosis and hypnotic techniques. There are, broadly speaking, two types of hypnosis: passive hypnosis, and command or authoritative hypnosis. Hypnosis, properly administered by skilled practitioners, has its proper place in psychiatric practice, and, in suitable cases, produces beneficial results. In the practice of medicine the type of hypnosis generally used is passive; the patient is allowed to, and helped to, go into hypnosis entirely voluntarily, and the hypnotist plays a completely passive role. This technique is quite the reverse of authoritative or command hypnosis, where the hypnotist assumes positive authoritative control over the patient who, though he may or may not be aware of what techniques the practitioner is practising on him, is nevertheless under the domination of the hypnotist pursuant to positive commands.

Because of the serious risk of harm to the patient, it is only in rare and exceptional circumstances that authoritative hypnosis is resorted to in medical practice. The distinction between the two types of hypnosis, the one beneficial and the other potentially harmful, is to be borne in mind when considering the hypnotic qualities of scientology techniques. Hubbard is very familiar with hypnosis, called by him, "hypnotism", a term which, even at the time of his early writings, was being superseded in professional use. Hubbard earlier practised hypnosis as shown abundantly by his writings. In Scientology, issue 15-G, he writes, "I was schooled in hypnotism and mysticism". Elsewhere he writes that he tried hypnotism, but gave it away because of a number of undesirable features which he said it possessed. In Dianetics: MSMH, Science of Survival, and other writings, Hubbard is highly critical of hypnosis, but what he is criticizing and denouncing is authoritative or command hypnosis, and to the extent that his criticisms relate to, and are limited to, authoritative hypnosis, they have considerable validity. Such criticisms, however, do not apply to passive hypnosis as practised by skilled and experienced psychiatrists with benefit to their patients in selected cases.

In the skilled practice of hypnosis the practitioner is well aware of the dangers which may arise from the tendency to develop in the patient a degree of dependency upon the practitioner, who is concerned to ensure that this and other dangers inherent in hypnosis do not develop. It is the firm conclusion of this Board that most scientology and dianetic techniques are those of authoritative hypnosis and as such are dangerous. Hubbard and his adherents strongly protest that his techniques are neither hypnotic nor dangerous. However, the scientific evidence which the Board heard from several expert witnesses of the highest repute and possessed of the highest qualifications in their professions of medicine, psychology, and other sciences - and which was virtually unchallenged - leads to the inescapable conclusion that it is only in name that there is any difference between authoritative hypnosis and most of the techniques of scientology Many scientology techniques are in fact hypnotic techniques, and Hubbard has not changed their nature by changing their names. Hubbard seems quite capable of thinking that if he postulates that scientology techniques are different from hypnotic techniques then they are different. Whether or not Hubbard realizes that the only differences are in name, his followers loyally and uncritically accept his word and believe that scientology techniques are distinctively Hubbardian and that hypnosis is something quite different and evil and to be avoided. A number of scientology witnesses, when asked what they believed hypnosis to be, answered vaguely that it was some sort of stage technique for mesmerizing people by the waving of hands in front of them, or some such thing. It may, of course, be that, but it is many other things also and of its real nature Hubbard's followers seem generally to be unaware.

The common practice of Hubbard is to change the names of hypnotic phenomena to names of his own invention, purporting thereby to change the nature and significance of such phenomena. Thus, a form of unconsciousness experienced in hypnosis he has renamed variously "anaten", "boil-off" and "dope-off"; hypnotic hallucinations he has called "mental image pictures"; and "dissociation" he has called "exteriorization".

Though in hypnosis there is no E-meter as there is in scientology, at almost every stage there is a parallel between scientology auditing and hypnosis, and it is even to be observed in the initial stages when the auditing session is about to commence. It is well recognized amongst psychiatrists that persons who desire to be hypnotized, or are expecting to be hypnotized, more readily succumb to hypnotic processes. It is not necessary that the subject should be expecting to be hypnotized, he may not be aware of the meaning of hypnosis or of what is involved in it. It is sufficient that he expects to receive treatment and he makes himself ready and available to the practitioner for the treatment which is to be applied and is ready to accept direction from the practitioner and the consequences or the results of such treatment. In authoritative hypnosis where the subject is a willing subject and is more or less consciously under the domination of the practitioner, it is found that the subject will readily go into hypnosis, even though he may be unaware of the technical name of the treatment he is receiving or the fact that he is, or is about to be, in hypnosis. Scientology techniques begin with a preclear who is well aware that he is to be "processed", and the circumstance that he does not know that the process, which is called by a non-hypnotic name, is in reality a hypnotic process is quite immaterial. The name has no significance to the preclear, but the process remains hypnotic by whatever name it is called. The preclear then, expecting to be "processed", finds that his processing commences, as Hubbard directs it shall commence, with solemn and strict ritual. After some standard preliminary questions such as, "Is it alright if I audit you in this room?" and "Is it alright if we start the session now?" an auditing session in scientology processing starts with an unvarying routine. When the assent of the preclear has been received to these preliminary questions, the auditor then commences the session with a loudly uttered, "Start of session." In the demonstration auditing sessions which the Board witnessed, the statement, "Start of session", was spoken in a loud sharp tone, quite at variance with the rest of the speech of the auditor and was evidently designed to impress upon the preclear that now he and the auditor had embarked on the really serious part of the business.

Such a dramatic and startling procedure conditions the already expectant preclear for the exercises or events which follow and is incontrovertibly that of authoritative hypnosis. The preclear is expecting to be "taken in hand", to use a neutral expression, and that is just what the auditor does, and that is what a hypnotist practising authoritative hypnosis would likewise do. The Board heard expert psychiatric evidence to the effect that a person who is so expectant is a very ready subject for hypnosis; it was said that a hypnotic condition could be induced in some patients merely by telling them to lie on the couch on which they had lain on a previous occasion when under hypnosis, and that even the entry into a room in which previously they had been under. hypnosis may be sufficient to return some people to hypnosis. In scientology, where processing goes on day after day, the return to the same auditor and to the same place and to the same ritual would readily predispose the expectant preclear to submission to scientology's hypnotic techniques and to a return to the hypnotic state which these circumstances commemorate.

In hypnosis, there is a condition of rapport between the subject and the hypnotist, loosely and variously described as a bond of sympathy, confidence, confidingness, trust. Hypnosis is a state of mind in the subject which is frequently induced by interaction with the hypnotist with whom the subject is said to he in rapport. In scientology processing there is established between the preclear and the auditor such a bond or understanding, and scientology techniques are developed and designed to maintain this bond during the whole of the session; it is considered bad auditing if this bond is broken and techniques are prescribed for remedying the break.

In hypnosis, a degree of dependency develops and the expert practitioner is on guard against, and realises the potential danger of, this condition. In authoritative hypnosis this dependency is allowed to develop, often with harmful results. In scientology there is this same dependence which is allowed to develop without restraint. It persists after the auditing has finished and has significance in the desire of the preclear to return again and again to the HASI for further auditing. In the case of some witnesses a quality of almost desperate dependency on the HASI was observable.

A significant characteristic of hypnosis is what is referred to as the atavastic regression of the subject, "regression" signifying the going back to some previous event or circumstance, and "atavistic" connoting and pertaining to ancestry and referring to the losing or dulling of more recently acquired biological activities, so that the subject becomes less alert, less critical, and may become almost childlike, with heightened respect for the hypnotist, the development or intensification of rapport and a desire on the part of the subject to identify himself more closely with the hypnotist. Hypnosis may be induced by a great number of different procedures which initiate some degree of regression in the subject. Very many scientology procedures are designed to initiate this regression.

If command hypnosis is unskilfully practised, hallucinations which have been created during hypnosis persist later as reality. In scientology, "mental image pictures" experienced during an auditing session persist thereafter as reality and the preclear comes to believe that the past experiences and activities conjured up during these hallucinatory periods really took place, and so there is engendered a readiness to subscribe to the various scientology theories about past lives, the thetan and similar beliefs.

Frequently a preclear who in auditing has experienced hallucinations concerning murder, rape, homosexuality and other criminal and disgraceful behaviour comes to believe that such behaviour actually occurred during his present lifetime. This results in feelings of anxiety. guilt and self-loathing and a desire for confession and self-abasement, all of which increase dependency on and domination of the HASI. This position is to be contrasted with what obtains where passive hypnosis is used by skilled practitioners; in such cases, though the patient under hypnosis may be uninhibited and may experience distressing hallucinations, they are handled by the practitioner in such a way that, if recollected at all, they do not persist as realities, and beneficial results are obtained from competently administered hypnotic techniques. Furthermore, whereas in the professional use of hypnosis the objective is to bring to a conclusion a course of such treatment as speedily as possible, scientology practice is to prescribe more processing to deal with the hallucinations already experienced and bring to light fresh ones.

One characteristic feature of hypnosis is the increased suggestibility of the subject, of which advantage can be taken by the hypnotist In the state of regression found in hypnosis fantasies may be experienced which may be spontaneous or as the result of suggestion. To the subject these fantasies are apparently real and true experiences, and if authoritative hypnosis is used, these fantasies persist as reality. Preclears are highly suggestible and readily conjure up past life experiences of a kind and along lines suggested by the auditor and by what Hubbard has written. Hubbard finds much of the material for his "research" in these hallucinations which are quite fanciful and often contain details of "past lives". A striking illustration of the increased suggestibility of persons undergoing scientology processing is the helatrobus implant on which Hubbard worked in 1963, and which was the cause of great excitement amongst scientologists. Hubbard wanted preclears to be run on the helatrobus implanting of the goal "to forget'' between 38 and 43 trillion years ago, and many preclears in auditing sessions readily imagined weird things happening to them in the period stipulated, some of them giving to the second how many trillions of years ago they had had past life experiences. This, however, was after Hubbard himself had issued a bulletin stating that he had had such experiences. Afterwards some of the preclears were quite satisfied that they had been recalling true experiences in past lives.

It is recognized in hypnosis that repetitive commands and the exercise of other hypnotic techniques are likely to induce regression in which the psychological mechanism of repression is less effective; when this relaxing or lessening of repression occurs, matters in the unconscious mind are allowed into consciousness, and the subject may be very ready to discuss quite freely many intimate and shameful matters in respect of which the subject would be greatly or entirely inhibited if not under hypnosis. In scientology auditing, all these features are present.

In scientology there are many processes, including those which involve repetitive commands, which produce a lowering of barriers of restraint, a lessening of reticence, a readiness to talk unreservedly about the most intimate and secret things and past shameful experiences, and there are even scientology techniques designed to overcome, in an almost sadistic way, any reluctance on the part of the preclear to "withhold" anything. In scientology processing there is the same relaxing of repression and the same regression that is found in hypnosis.

One of the features of hypnosis is that various psychological mechanisms operate in a more florid form; thus, while in ordinary life a person may show little manifestation of hysteric behaviour, under hypnosis he is far more likely to show hysteric behaviour in a gross form. In scientology processing it is almost standard practice for the preclear to manifest some heightened hysterical features; a great many of the HASI files indicate that preclears have highly developed bouts of hysterical manifestation.

Post-hypnotic suggestion, which is an important feature of hypnosis, is the name given to the implanting during hypnosis of a command, belief or idea which is subsequently given effect to. Post-hypnotic suggestions may be made in relation to ideas, beliefs, attitudes of mind and the like which the patient is to assume after coming out of hypnosis. In scientology auditing, the auditor, in following the prescribed strict procedure for closing the session, inquires of the preclear whether the preclear has achieved his goals set for the session and any other gains and whether he is satisfied with the session. The auditor is still very much in control of the situation, for the preclear, being in a state of hypnotic rapport with the auditor whose wishes are in effect his, is more likely to answer that the goals or some of them have been obtained and that the session has been a success. This is a form of post-hypnotic suggestion, and after the session the suggestion that the session was a success may persist. This feature of auditing may well account for the " statistics" which Williams produced as the percentage of preclears which it was claimed had received benefit from scientology processing (see Chapter 20.)

Dangerous consequences may follow some post-hypnotic suggestions. If a post-hypnotic suggestion be given in hypnosis that the subject would not experience a particular symptom, e.g. a headache, after a session had ended, the subject might not experience a headache which normally he would have experienced, and thereby not be alerted to a possible medical condition, such as a brain tumour, of which the headache would have been a warning sign.

In hypnosis, a condition which is described by psychiatrists as "dissociation" may be experienced by the subject. This is a feeling or sensation or belief on the part of the subject that for the time being he is outside his body. This is a complete delusion though it seems real enough to the subject who is experiencing it. If the processing is authoritative hypnosis, then the hallucination of having been outside one's body may persist after the session has concluded, and this may be dangerous to the mental health of the subject. In scientology auditing, a state which the scientologists call "exteriorization" is sometimes deliberately sought; in fact, exercises and procedures for exteriorization are the subject of a large part of Hubbard's instructional writings. This exteriorization, according to scientologists, is the actual departure of the thetan from the physical body to some position remote from the body. "Dissociation" and "exteriorization" are the same thing, produced by essentially the same means. Whereas in hypnosis, dissociation or exteriorization is recognized for what it is, namely, a feeling or sensation or belief on the part of the subject that he is outside his body, in scientology the preclear is specifically told that the hallucination which he experienced did in fact occur as a reality and that the thetan has been exteriorized. In such circumstances the harmful effects of scientology processing persist by inculcating in the mind of the preclear an entirely fallacious belief. A preoccupation with such beliefs, involving a refusal to face up to reality, may be dangerous to the mental health of the subject.

A command to "mock up" some object is a standard technique for the induction of hypnosis. Hubbard's writings, both in books and pamphlets, abound with descriptions of procedures which involve mocking up objects. A very great part of The Creation of Human Ability, a book of nearly 300 pages, and recommended reading, is devoted to the explanation of procedures which involve mocking up objects and / or exteriorization. Bulletins, policy letters, and other literature from Hubbard repeatedly deal with these two topics.

In hypnosis, it is not uncommon for the subject to experience disturbing hallucinations that relate to repressed things in his mind, such as hallucinatory homosexual experiences which a subject in his normal existence may never have experienced or entertained. Because of loss of repression these thoughts become known to him in a hallucinatory form, and he is likely to experience extremely severe anxiety even to the extent of panic and self-loathing. A subject who, in passive hypnosis, has experienced these or similar thoughts and may have had feelings of revulsion while under hypnosis, may safely be brought out of hypnosis and no ill effects will follow; on the contrary, benefit may result and feelings of shame will not persist. However, if similar hallucinatory and shameful thoughts are conjured up in authoritative hypnosis there may be dangerous consequences. In scientology, preclears have frequently complained of morbid feelings of guilt and depression persisting after auditing.

A further similarity between hypnotic processing and scientology auditing is the attention which both pay to the terminating of a processing or auditing session. A skilled hypnotist exercises great care in terminating a hypnotic session; he has to be satisfied that the subject is ready to be returned to a normal state from the hypnotized state. Too rapid a transition from one state to the other may have harmful effects. In scientology, there is as much strictness applied to terminating an auditing session as there is to the starting of such a session. The auditor brings the preclear up to "present time", usually running a "havingness" process for this purpose; he then enquires whether the session can be ended, and when he has the preclear's assent, he loudly proclaims "End of session" in much the same ritualistic way as he commenced the session.

The foregoing illustrations are sufficient to show that at almost every point there is a similarity, amounting almost to identity, between features of authoritative hypnosis and parallel features of scientology techniques. The dangers of the wholesale practice of these pernicious techniques cannot be over-emphasized. Not only does it constitute a very grave threat to the mental health of those already in scientology and in need of psychiatric help but it menaces persons who by ordinary standards are quite normal but may find their way into the scientology centre merely out of ambition, curiosity or adventure. Being unaware of what is in store for them, they may easily succumb to the lure of being made more able, and shortly find themselves mentally crippled by the dangerous practices of ignorant operatives. This has already been the tragic fate of many . . . "

. . . Amen.
 

Lone Star

Crusader
I like your post because it expresses a view that puts me at ease a bit about making a fool of myself after such a short time here. I got a trick question, and I responded repeatedly to a troll. Hell, if I want to feel a fool I can go back to cofs.
I am thinking I'll just go back to lurk mode. At least there I won't show my ass.

phenomanon

Don't be so hard on yourself. You're doing just fine here. :thumbsup:
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Just for interest.

This is very dated looking now, but have a look from 3.03.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBkUqcqRChg

This was an interesting video series. Frankly I think flying this woman's ruds would have done a hell of a lot more for her than what I see happening here.

I can see why Hubbard was dismissive of psychotherapy in terms of its results per unit of time.

As to the auditing comm cycle being fake or stilted, that is actually just a lousy auditor. And yes it is due to robotic TR drilling which of course has become the rule for the past 30 years. I don't know if you've ever listened to Hubbard actually auditing someone but he certainly wasn't fake or cold.

I've had auditing that was not so good and it was the auditor's crap comm cycle and stiffness that made it so, in fact it was the last auditing I had at FLAG and the auditor was on the CL VI internship but had been a CL VIII. I'm sure the sessions were being videoed and that he was a nervous wreck since the F/N 3 swing bullshit had just hit. But it wasn't bad auditing, he got the job done, it just wasn't as smooth and pleasant as it could have been.

For the most part the auditors I had were very good and were in good communication with me, especially the CL XII's I had on the L's, well, 2 out of 3 of them actually, one was not so good and after one session with him I was switched and the auditor was sent for correction.

So many people seem to have had shitty auditing, it really is a shame, because a good auditor can really do a great job for another person. So many of you want to dismiss it all as complete BS but there are very positive results to be had. The environmental circumstances surrounding the session are what is most fucked up (i.e. the regging, scheduling, bad C/Sing, and other assorted BS) and fucks up the benefits.
 

Veda

Sponsor
No doubt. Much to the chagrin of my intimates, I'm only diplomatic when I choose to be. Not nearly often enough by their regard.

-snip-

How about being diplomatic and answering the question, "Are you a Scientologist?"

This question is related to the thread having to do with why Scientologists, when asked, "Are you a Scientologist?" by non-Scientologists, are embarrassed.

Don't have a melt down as you did yesterday, and call me a bigot - how many times? Was it twice on two different threads? - remain calm this time.

There are many examples of people on ESMB being set upon - including being attacked - by Scientologists.

Here are two I quickly dug up:

This one from Baker, to an unfortunate poster called Moonchild:

"...If you want to insult Hubbard go ahead. It's an utterly useless practice and says a great deal more about the nature of your own character than it does about Hubbard. But hey, some people revel in hatred...."

Then, there's this from Dexter, who no longer posts here because of the "anti-Scientology" sentiment:

"...you're still stuck in the drama of your own CofS experience...

"You're still trying to fight it off...

"Those of us who... unlike you, are doing OK in our lives...

"You just keep pumping out rationalizations for how the rest of us [Scientologists] must be wrong, we must be delusional or something because we aren't crushed like you...

"They must be deluded if they are doing well through some means that didn't work for you...

"The common term for this is 'sour grapes'.

"You just can't tolerate others doing well what you haven't done well with...

"That's... delusional..."



And there are many more, but who keeps a record of it? I don't. But right now I wish I had.

So, please, no lectures from the Scientologists about good manners.

By the way, I've not included the slippery "handlings" for which Scientologists are famous.

I've only presented a couple of examples of Scientologists having out-PR tech, and showing what lies below the "handlings" when their TRs are out.

Now, back to the actual topic of this thread. :)
 

Veda

Sponsor
I'm at work so will have to go with the wikipedia page to answer you - granted I gave it only a quick glance, but this is what I consider hypnosis

-snip-

I've found that discussions involving the words "hypnosis" and "hypnotized" become difficult because the words, "hypnosis" and "hypnotized" have so many definitions.

The way to circumvent this, I've found, is to succinctly, in one's own words, describe what one means by "hypnosis" or "hypnotized," and use that succinct - one or two sentence - definition in place of the word "hypnosis" or the word "hypnotized."

Otherwise, discussions ensue with people using different definitions. :)
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
The use of hypnotism is far from a "claim". It was a finding by a government enquiry at which expert witnesses provided ample evidence. An object examination shows clearly that Auditing does induce an hypnotic-like trance state which is used to implant and reinforce Scientology "think" and to protect the wider fraud. Have you read the Anderson Report's findings about this:


. . . Amen.

So auditing has some hypnotic aspects - trance state qualities in some cases. So does meditation. Yes, you are regressing people when using "earlier similar". Yes yes yes. Is auditing harmful? I haven't seen its harm personally. And yes, I know the stories of suicide and such, but these are a very small percentage. The actual cause of such has not been ascertained. I'm not talking about OT III here, I can definitely see how that could drive a person around the bend if they freak out about having creepy BTs all over them.

Frequently a preclear who in auditing has experienced hallucinations concerning murder, rape, homosexuality and other criminal and disgraceful behaviour comes to believe that such behaviour actually occurred during his present lifetime. This results in feelings of anxiety. guilt and self-loathing and a desire for confession and self-abasement, all of which increase dependency on and domination of the HASI.

I strongly disagree with the "results" they assert. I have not found this to be the case and in fact the purpose of auditing is quite the reverse and brings about the reverse effect.

Have at it!
 

Veda

Sponsor
I know you didn't ask me, but some may wonder, maybe...


I AM NOT A SCIENTOLOGIST


or am I? :confused2:

You're don't call people "bigots" and "haters." You're not a Scientologist. :)

Although there's actually nothing wrong with "being a Scientologist," except that, apparently, Scientologists are uneasy with, themselves, being Scientologists, and for reasons they can neither confront nor explain.

But that's another thread.
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
You're don't call people "bigots" and "haters." You're not a Scientologist. :)

Although there's actually nothing wrong with "being a Scientologist," except that, apparently, Scientologists are uneasy with, themselves, being Scientologists, and for reasons they can neither confront nor explain.

But that's another thread.

True, I don't, well I might do it tongue and cheek, as I am wont joke & degrade.

I do see that many exes have flipped into a complete raging opposition to the subject and I certainly can understand why they would feel as they do. My own experiences of 30+ years were not so pleasant at times, but I never joined the SO which is where the major nightmares are delivered. I was on staff in an org a few times and those periods were certainly the worst and most traumatic of my involvement.

Not many here have a similar set of opinions about the subject that I do. My opinions certainly have shifted since I first joined the board, and they are still somewhat shifty although in a much narrower band.

I think Hubbard had definite mental issues.
I think Hubbard had underlying intentions as can be seen in his admissions.
I think Hubbard ALSO was trying to solve the problems of the mind/spirit.

His claims about the subject were pure blue sky BS. He knew it couldn't do what he was saying. But I think he thought he could eventually get the subject to a point where it would get a person there (OT states)

This was counterbalanced, no overbalanced, by his greed for power & money and those intents expressed in his admissions. This is what makes the subject so damn snarly. Was he or wasn't he... Well he was both.

He attracted to him a number of very bright individuals that did not have his evil purposes and took the stated purpose of the subject to heart and these individuals assisted in the development of some things that do help a person.

Even though his model is flawed, the subject was able to produce results.

His organization... lol, well just forget about that, it was completely mis-structured for its purported intent. Clearly it was structured to give him the power and money he craved.

Stay tuned, my new religion is in the works...
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
In a certain way, I can understand that.

But how can the conversations be contrived to keep them here unless they are embedded with "shore stories" that "gradiently" attempt to "handle" them?

Isn't that the problem with Scientology? That people aren't allowed to say what they are really thinking--or worse, that they purposefully give "acceptable truths" to lure others in the front door without saying what Scientology really is or how much it costs in time/money?
Yes, it IS very difficult to keep them posting here but I don't think it's necessary to embed "shore stories".

I have many conversations with still-in scientologists (as do you) and they're always civil and often result in the scientologist learning something they never knew (or, maybe, pretended they never knew) before. Internet "discussion" is obviously a hell of a lot more complicated, especially when anyone looking on can chirp up at any given moment and throw an irrelevant spanner in the works.

Still, a civil approach seems to work well for me. I think it works fine for message board discussion too.

BTW: Whenever I talk to scientologists, I never think of it as "handling them". I just tell them the truth as I understand it in a way that they can understand.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
So auditing has some hypnotic aspects - trance state qualities in some cases. So does meditation. Yes, you are regressing people when using "earlier similar". Yes yes yes. Is auditing harmful? I haven't seen its harm personally. And yes, I know the stories of suicide and such, but these are a very small percentage. The actual cause of such has not been ascertained. I'm not talking about OT III here, I can definitely see how that could drive a person around the bend if they freak out about having creepy BTs all over them.



I strongly disagree with the "results" they assert. I have not found this to be the case and in fact the purpose of auditing is quite the reverse and brings about the reverse effect.

Have at it!

Auditing doesn't have have "some hypnotic aspects" - Auditing is hypnosis, as delineated in the Anderson Report. The fact that it is non-consensual and has predetermined but occluded outcomes is what makes Auditing dangerous. In short, every minute of Auditing has been designed to bring a person closer and closer to duplicating Xenu as a distraction from, and protection of, a sophisticated on-going organised criminal conspiracy to defraud. Take your nebulous feel-good "wins" and "positive results", by all means, but please recognise them for what they are and what they have cost. I'm not sure what percentage of suicides is worthy of your consideration in your assessment, but consider also the cost to society of the disconnected families, corruption of public officials, and use of the term "spiritual" to conceal crimes.

Don't get me wrong. I don't care if grown adults with access to all the information wish to take part in Auditing outside the cult. Caveat emptor, and all that. Without the cult infrastructure, the worst Auditing can do is keep a person immersed in the mind fuck and subject to more fraud and reverie-induced "results".

A wise Anon once wrote:

Wise Anon said:
. . . hopefully someday it will just be called sci-auditing, and a few folks will get together here and there and do it just like a couple of folks might get together and smoke a joint or drink a beer. And they will know what it is they are doing, and they won't give it any more respect or credit than it deserves.
because guess what? you weren't alive a thousand years ago, and you don't leave your body and roam around. its hypnosis, dumbass, and your e-meter isn't much more than a bong . . .

. . . but "making the able more able", or "knowing how to know", or "Clearing the planet", or "creating a world without war, insanity, and crime" - puhleeze.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Please explain, succinctly, in your own words, what you mean by hypnosis.

That would simplify and clarify matters considerably.

I defer to Kevin Victor Anderson, QC, and the findings of the State Government enquiry:

" . . . It is the firm conclusion of this Board that most scientology and dianetic techniques are those of authoritative hypnosis and as such are dangerous . . . "

Authorative hypnosis is generally defined as that form of hypnosis where the hypnotist assumes positive authoritative control over the subject. Though they may or may not be aware of what techniques the hypnotist is practicing, the subjects are nevertheless under the domination of the hypnotist pursuant to the hypnotist's commands. The clearest and perhaps most familiar demonstration of this is a stage hypnotist show.

[video]http://youtu.be/H7zaPof1d7U[/video]​
 

Panda Termint

Cabal Of One
Of course the Anderson Report is the Authority you defer to. LOL

Your faith in the validity of the methods and findings of the "Board" of the Anderson Report is kinda cute, though.

It seems like scientologists aren't the only ones subject to Wishful Thinking masquerading as Belief.
 

Infinite

Troublesome Internet Fringe Dweller
Of course the Anderson Report is the Authority you defer to. LOL

Your faith in the validity of the methods and findings of the "Board" of the Anderson Report is kinda cute, though.

It seems like scientologists aren't the only ones subject to Wishful Thinking masquerading as Belief.

The Anderson Report validity, methods and findings are lacking in what way?
 

PirateAndBum

Gold Meritorious Patron
Auditing doesn't have have "some hypnotic aspects" - Auditing is hypnosis, as delineated in the Anderson Report. The fact that it is non-consensual and has predetermined but occluded outcomes is what makes Auditing dangerous. In short, every minute of Auditing has been designed to bring a person closer and closer to duplicating Xenu as a distraction from, and protection of, a sophisticated on-going organised criminal conspiracy to defraud. Take your nebulous feel-good "wins" and "positive results", by all means, but please recognise them for what they are and what they have cost. I'm not sure what percentage of suicides is worthy of your consideration in your assessment, but consider also the cost to society of the disconnected families, corruption of public officials, and use of the term "spiritual" to conceal crimes.

Don't get me wrong. I don't care if grown adults with access to all the information wish to take part in Auditing outside the cult. Caveat emptor, and all that. Without the cult infrastructure, the worst Auditing can do is keep a person immersed in the mind fuck and subject to more fraud and reverie-induced "results".

A wise Anon once wrote:



. . . but "making the able more able", or "knowing how to know", or "Clearing the planet", or "creating a world without war, insanity, and crime" - puhleeze.

Frankly Infinite, you know not of what you speak of. You were never a Scio, you have never had nor given an auditing session. Your reliance on 3rd party information to make such sweeping statements of fact do not make them fact. And certainly you are not qualified to make such statements since you have no qualifications for making them. You are of course free to say that auditing turns you into a 3-headed purple toad. That doesn't make it so.
 
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