Scientology is all bad

[Bill]

Apparently, Mark wants ...

Actually the only thing I want is for all those on this board who don't understand what I've actually written yet who repeatedly insist on second guessing my views and interpreting my remarks for others simply to stop.

Let my words speak for themselves. Judging by the responses I get to my posts not everyone has difficulty understanding my posts. The would be analysts and interpreters serve only to misrepresent, mislead, and deceive others concerning my views. It's tiresome.

That you can't understand what I write except by relating it to your own complex thinking makes it clear you don't know that of which you have chosen to speak.

So if you guys would stop "translating" and let my words stand on their own, I'd like that a lot.

Mark A. Baker

Did you just happen to notice that "apparently" I put there? That means I'm carefully not putting words in your mouth but making a guess -- which my words make very clear.

I would be very pleased if you would care to correct me and tell me what you do want in this area. While I have read many of your posts, I don't recall you ever covering this aspect of the fragmentation of Scientology and the possibility of the word "Scientology" becoming generic.

I personally think that "Scientology" becoming a generic term would be a good thing that an independent (small "i") like you would prefer. There are already quite a number of different brands of Scientology and I think the whole field would welcome the addition of a descriptor to differentiate one from the other.

But then, I don't operate on the same plane as you, so I don't know all the nuances (and I do not intend that as an insult, Mark).

Bill

 

[Bill]

I actually admire Mark Baker. Amongst other things, I admire his ability to hold his position in the face of relentless criticism and, dare I say it... of course I do, bullying.

There seems to be a level of tolerance for violations of the Board's "be courteous to others" Rule Of Conduct when it comes to Mark that sometimes astounds me. Perhaps the attitude is that Mark brings it on himself or encourages it but I'm not sure that's true. Mark, is that true?

In any event, Baker-Baiting is the thing I most dislike about ESMB. Luckily for me, there are a hundred other things about ESMB which I like immensely.

"Look around here and find something you don't have to chew up."

I think this is a wonderful message about tolerance and respect. Sometimes it can get a bit rough around here and, if I have ever been nasty to anyone, I apologize.

However, I do not agree with the idea that we all need to tippy-toe around someone because they will get offended that we dared to disagree or find fault.

This is a conversation, sometimes a debate and sometimes an argument. I will disagree with some people's opinions and they will disagree with mine. This is, I believe, very healthy. I do not and will not personally attack a person. I have never called someone "stupid" or any other insults. I will attack ideas I don't agree with and I will challenge someone if they insult me, tell lies about me or put words in my mouth.

If someone cannot take criticism of their ideas and the words they say, then I don't think they belong on a forum where others are allowed to disagree. This is what makes life interesting and makes this forum exciting at times: debate and discussion.

There certainly should be tolerance and courtesy if possible. But, no, I'm not going to tippy-toe around certain sensitive people.

Bill

 

[Veda]

-snip-

There certainly should be tolerance and courtesy if possible. But, no, I'm not going to tippy-toe around certain sensitive people.

Bill

I think we have an obligation, when seeing dishonesty and manipulation, to call it that, and, if necessary, to further explain what is occurring.

That this sometimes makes the manipulator uncomfortable is, unfortunately, unavoidable.

There are no rules against manipulation, and a manipulator knows that, and uses it to his advantage.

 

[Panda Termint]

Yes, Bill. I haven't said anything about valid disagreements or tippy-toeing. Mark is quite capable of stating his own position and certainly doesn't need my help in defending himself.

I'm just talking about the level of personal ridicule and arrogant/condescending assumptions about another's intentions that have become commonplace in response to Mark's posts. These things irk me, possibly because they remind me so much of the Scientology Mindset in the CofS.

 

[Panda Termint]

I think we have an obligation, when seeing dishonesty and manipulation, to call it that, and, if necessary, to further explain what is occurring.

That this sometimes makes the manipulator uncomfortable is, unfortunately, unavoidable.

There are no rules against manipulation, and a manipulator knows that, and uses it to his advantage.

You're responding to a Strawman Argument (as I understand them) in the section of Bill's post you quoted.

I said nothing about disagreeing with Mark, tippy-toeing or responding to his posts as you deem fit, as long as it's within the Rules Of Conduct. Mark is the last person I'd call "sensitive" about this stuff, he appears to be very pragmatic to me.

On a respectful personal comment note: You seem to see "dishonesty and manipulation" where, IMO, none exists. I sometimes think your attempts to "handle" imaginary "manipulators" are just an excuse to forward your view of all things scientological. I have no real problem with that.

Funnily enough, I don't disagree with much of what you have to say about scientology, just with how often you say it.

 

[Bill]

You're responding to a Strawman Argument (as I understand them) in the section of Bill's post you quoted.

I said nothing about disagreeing with Mark, tippy-toeing or responding to his posts as you deem fit, as long as it's within the Rules Of Conduct. Mark is the last person I'd call "sensitive" about this stuff, he appears to be very pragmatic to me.

On a respectful personal comment note: You seem to see "dishonesty and manipulation" where, IMO, none exists. I sometimes think your attempts to "handle" imaginary "manipulators" are just an excuse to forward your view of all things scientological. I have no real problem with that.

Funnily enough, I don't disagree with much of what you have to say about scientology, just with how often you say it.

Please note that I never said that Mark was one of the "sensitive people"

Bill

 

[Panda Termint]

I already knew that, Bill.

 

[Veda]

snip-

On a respectful personal comment note: You seem to see "dishonesty and manipulation" where, IMO, none exists.

snip-

When you were a happy Scientologist applauding Ron's picture I was decoding Scientology. I spotted that manipulation. And now you're spotting it too. In ten years you'll agree with what I wrote here today.

 

[Div6]

When you were a happy Scientologist applauding Ron's picture I was decoding Scientology. I spotted that manipulation. And now you're spotting it too. In ten years you'll agree with what I wrote here today.

is all help betrayal?

 

[Veda]

is all help betrayal?

I've been helped, and I've been helping people all my life. You can take your silly Scientology mind-game questions and shove them.

 

[Div6]

I've been helped, and I've been helping people all my life. You can take your silly Scientology mind-game questions and shove them.

dox plox

 

[PirateAndBum]

dox plox

 

[Claire Swazey]

No offense, but I've seen the argument before that invoking politeness and/or rules of conduct would or might be tippy toeing around the person. All I can say on that is that one can be candid about a stance and still be courteous.

 

[Claire Swazey]

@ssholes seems to be a popular word with Scientologists.

Perhaps they learned it from other forum contributors...no shortage of name calling amongst skeptics/exes/detractors, etc.

 

[PirateAndBum]

Well, Terril got banned, so I guess that does prove that Scn is all bad.

We really don't have enough Scios here. I'm thinking of slipping into my former identity and having some bedeviling fun getting skewered.

I think ESMB is a harsh place for the newly out that is still a Scio. I think that's unfortunate because there is so much fantastic information on this forum.

Seems like it was a much less aggressive place at the end of '07 when I first joined. Though certainly not a Martyland by any means. Marty's blog is just another Scio blog that has an ARCX with Heir Dwarfenstubnubbin.

 

[Gib]

Well, Terril got banned, so I guess that does prove that Scn is all bad.

We really don't have enough Scios here. I'm thinking of slipping into my former identity and having some bedeviling fun getting skewered.

I think ESMB is a harsh place for the newly out that is still a Scio. I think that's unfortunate because there is so much fantastic information on this forum.

Seems like it was a much less aggressive place at the end of '07 when I first joined. Though certainly not a Martyland by any means. Marty's blog is just another Scio blog that has an ARCX with Heir Dwarfenstubnubbin.

I concur with this statement you made, being one just out.

Your statement - "I think ESMB is a harsh place for the newly out that is still a Scio. I think that's unfortunate because there is so much fantastic information on this forum. "

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

I concur with this statement you made, being one just out.

Your statement - "I think ESMB is a harsh place for the newly out that is still a Scio. I think that's unfortunate because there is so much fantastic information on this forum. "

I concur with your concurrence.

Face

 

[Bill]

No offense, but I've seen the argument before that invoking politeness and/or rules of conduct would or might be tippy toeing around the person. All I can say on that is that one can be candid about a stance and still be courteous.

You said it so much nicer than I did. I agree.

Bill

 

[PirateAndBum]

I concur with this statement you made, being one just out.

Your statement - "I think ESMB is a harsh place for the newly out that is still a Scio. I think that's unfortunate because there is so much fantastic information on this forum. "

Well Gib, I must say you're doing just fine! Glad we didn't scare you off.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

I actually admire Mark Baker. Amongst other things, I admire his ability to hold his position in the face of relentless criticism and, dare I say it... of course I do, bullying.

There seems to be a level of tolerance for violations of the Board's "be courteous to others" Rule Of Conduct when it comes to Mark that sometimes astounds me. Perhaps the attitude is that Mark brings it on himself or encourages it but I'm not sure that's true. Mark, is that true?

In any event, Baker-Baiting is the thing I most dislike about ESMB. Luckily for me, there are a hundred other things about ESMB which I like immensely.

"Look around here and find something you don't have to chew up."

Okay, so you think there is bullying of Mark Baker.

Who are you talking about? Me? Veda? Who exactly?

Did you click "DISLIKE" to let the person know their post sucked?

Did you report this as a rules violation?

Why aren't the administrators stopping these outlaws?

If you are talking about me, will I be getting a vacation?