Ex-member of the CoS- Brian Cox

[Mick Wenlock]

Thanks, great questions!

Some of the perceptions of Scientology come from the cultish behaviors of the Co$. Opinions can't truly be expressed there and so people's responses to things get quite plastic and unreal at times.

But when practiced correctly a person should never be told what happened in their life. And they should always be free to express anything that is real. But that wouldn't be a very controllable scene now would it? So to keep money flowing in its more convenient for DM to "tweak" those rules a bit. =)

So here's a recent experience of mine (doing Grade 1, which addresses a persons ability to help and confront problems). The counseling questions were pretty simple ... "How could you help ###?"... followed by "How could you not help ###?" You basically run those over and over until you find your own truth on that subject (I'm simplifying here for convenience). And I suddenly recalled the time when I had made the decision that that person (not telling who, that's private was not worthy of my help. And I was able to let go of a lot of negative emotion tied up in that person.

So since auditing (counseling) my attitude has improved on many aspects of my life... too numerous for all to be listed. But that has seriously improved my happiness permanently.

Now, I know this board is full of a lot of jaded, disillusioned and upset people. And I'm not judging them. Having been involved in the Co$ should probably driven them far worse, given the current culture there. These are just my opinions. But I do think they had had some good experiences too. Why else would they have put up with such nonsense for so long?

Your last paragraph is a common point that those who are "out" but still believing attempt to make. It is also trotted out when someone (like me) refers to scientology the subject as a crock of rubbish from start to finish. I was in the Sea Org for 13 years so it would look, at first blush, as if your point might have some validity.

But it does not.

There are several factors that got me into Scientology and the Sea Org. The primary one in my case (joke intended) was the urge to help people. I also wanted to gain all those abilities. As I went through Scientology I found out that the results did not equate to the promises, either organizationally or personally or with others. After thirteen years of trying to integrate it all and make sense of it I realized, finally, that it is total BS.

As for having "good experiences" I did indeed have good experiences and they did contribute to my sticking around for so long - but that doesn't validate Scientology, the philosophy or the tech. It merely validates the simple fact that there are good people who get into scientology with whom it is ,indeed, possible to have fun.

 

[shanic89]

So here's a recent experience of mine (doing Grade 1, which addresses a persons ability to help and confront problems). The counseling questions were pretty simple ... "How could you help ###?"... followed by "How could you not help ###?" You basically run those over and over until you find your own truth on that subject (I'm simplifying here for convenience). And I suddenly recalled the time when I had made the decision that that person (not telling who, that's private was not worthy of my help. And I was able to let go of a lot of negative emotion tied up in that person.

Thank you for replying to my questions, and a bigger thank you for actually answering the questions. I would like comment on the content of your reply but instead for now I am just going to have a cig and appreciate the fact that I have received a straight answer.

 

[Reasonable]

Yeah... About some of that wild stuff... Lol

I think people who are not in get the idea that those that are just want to be supermen. And I can see from videos like that how you might get that idea. But I think most are really just looking to improve their lives and relationships.

Personally, I take that with a grain of salt. I think it's probably bring oversold just as Hubbard did. But I don't know. I'm looking for spiritual gain. And talk like that has been prevalent in Buddhist circles for much longer than it has in Scientology. I have no idea if it's true or not. I'm OK whether it is or not. It's not really what I'm looking for.

Thank you for your answer but I must disagree. Most people are not dedicating their lives to Scientology for a little nebulous spiritual gain. Most are not spending their life savings to have a better relationship. They are in it to save the world…like Superman. “The whole agonized salvation of mankind depends on what you do here and now in Scientology.”

The people going full on into scientology want “Super Powers”, 52 senses the ability to be stable outside their bodies, perfect recall. The Bridge to Total Freedom……..These are all advertised results.

I have had some nice results with auditing as well and I would even do it again if there price were reasonable. But knowing what I know now is a lot different than believing the advertising that I used to believe. As far as I am concerned in regards to Scientology auditing I want Truth in Advertising.

If Truth In Advertising were applied then Scientology would be over today. The only reason they don’t have to apply truth in advertising is because it is a considered a religion.

It is not fair that the medical profession by law cannot advertise a guaranteed results yet Scientology can, when in reality they are selling the same product which is an end to your problems.

From what you wrote is seems that you are OK with nebulous spiritual gain or some sort of subjective mental change, so I say go for it.

As I said in my previous post if it were advertised as “Unspecified Spiritual Gain” I would be OK with it, but it is not. It is actually advertised as Super Powers, and that is one of the bigger dangers of Scientology.

 

[2briancox]

... , at first blush, as if your point might have some validity.

But it does not. It merely validates the simple fact that there are good people who get into scientology with whom it is ,indeed, possible to have fun.

Mick, I'm going to do the honorable thing here and eat a bit of crow. Someone else just replied to that also (not good at navigating this site on my phone yet), and they said I was indeed judging when I made that comment. They were right.

I guess I really meant to say that I was not thinking badly of people in my judgement. And I was trying to express my view of why people get so critical of the tech. What you've mentioned is not my experience. But I should be more understanding that it can be for others. I didn't really want to evaluate you or anyone else.

Other roads can have value too. And I have no interest in enforcing this one I'm on for anyone.

 

[2briancox]

Thank you for replying to my questions, and a bigger thank you for actually answering the questions. I would like comment on the content of your reply but instead for now I am just going to have a cig and appreciate the fact that I have received a straight answer.

Have you been treated badly by other Scientologists? That can be very frustrating when you have questions. I've been treated that way by some pretty lousy car salesmen like that recently. I didn't like being treated that way. I wouldn't expect you to either.

On behalf of someone who values the tech, I apologize to you for their behavior.

 

[Panda Termint]

<...snip to address one specific point>
Now, I know this board is full of a lot of jaded, disillusioned and upset people. And I'm not judging them. Having been involved in the Co$ should probably driven them far worse, given the current culture there. These are just my opinions. But I do think they had had some good experiences too. Why else would they have put up with such nonsense for so long?

Firstly, Brian, welcome to ESMB.

I think you're incorrect in thinking the above. ESMB is full of all kinds of people but few are as you described in the first sentence I quoted. We have people who held posts in Int Management, Senior Execs, highly trained Tech and Admin personnel, highly Classed Auditors and Case Supervisors, former Org EDs and Staff, Course Supes, Veteran SO, people who have done the entire CofS Bridge etc etc. They're an interesting bunch and main thing they mostly have in common is that they no longer think of themselves as scientologists.

I appreciate the fact that scientology is working for you, it does that sometimes and, IMO, you're the person making it work. Enjoy the experience and get what you can from it by all means but watch for the point where it stops working. Good Luck.

 

[2briancox]

The difference being that the counselor in your session doesn't have any metal health training, correct? So what if somone comes to the center to get help with their emotional thoughts but needs more than what is prescribed in LRH's drills. Isn't that dangerous?

I like that question! If I agreed that training in mental health in academia was the right answer for people, is probably ask the same thing.

Let me just preface everything I say here with... This is my perception. I don't mean to tell anyone it has to be theirs too.

I do agree that there are people that can probably be helped by some of the treatments in the mental health field including, as a last resort, medicine to keep them from hurting themselves and others. But I don't agree that there is something significant in mental health training within academia that makes anything safe that isn't in Scientology training. I've taken many psychology courses in my college studies, while I was in a "searching for solutions" phase. And the one thing I really learned is how scattered the knowledge is within that field.

Because it has so many theories which often contradict, and often it gives very little explanation of which is more significant than others, I had a hard time finding my answers there. So, to me it seemed like it was dependent on the practitioner's person innate abilities and talents.

Scientology has a LOT of training also. People who train to Class VI auditor have at least as much actual study time into the field of mental health as someone who has a Masters in psychology. It may not be what YOU think is the answer to emotional and spiritual problems.

But I think it does everyone well to grant others the right to their own path

 

[Veda]

Not to belabor the point but in this video this Freezone guy, John Rafanello, claims that he transported a car instantly from one side of town to the other. He actually claimed teleportation. SUper hero comic book stuff. Of course no one saw him do it.

As you watch this you realize that he is a great story teller and a passionate creative man and he himself actually believes he did this. I think the same is true of Hubbard.

If you are new to Scientology free zone or coorperate you could spend a lot of time and money trying to teleport cars becasue who knows what magic lies on the OT levels?

I just would not want someone freshly out of the cult to believe that this stuff is actually possible. I should say "has never been demonstrated." I don't know what is possible.

But when I watched this stuff I remember wanting to believe stories like this and that is what made me spend so much money and time trying to get comic book superhero powers and it seems that people in the free zone still believe.
The Magic Thetan - Class 8, OT 8 - John Rafanello
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D7crInV-bOM

He posted here for a couple weeks, I actually felt bad for the guy, he seemed like a really nice guy, but he's stuck in the Role Playing World of Scientology.

He surrender his identity to a role playing fantasy game and he's stuck there.

In looking over the Elma link's web site, which I posted previously, noticed the video, under the banner "Welcome to the Freezone Convention 2012." The Magic Thetan introduces Rey Robles.

Here's Rey giving a talk to "All Loyal Officers":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYGFOevVmHQ

Hey, Brian, one of the reasons people are sometimes critical of the tech is that it can lead places that are less than sane, even though it sounds really good at the beginning.

But you'll have to find that out for yourself.

 

[MissWog]

My comments to your comments are below point by point in BOLD

I like that question! If I agreed that training in mental health in academia was the right answer for people, is probably ask the same thing.

Let me just preface everything I say here with... This is my perception. I don't mean to tell anyone it has to be theirs too.

I do agree that there are people that can probably be helped by some of the treatments in the mental health field including, as a last resort, medicine to keep them from hurting themselves and others. But I don't agree that there is something significant in mental health training within academia that makes anything safe that isn't in Scientology training. I've taken many psychology courses in my college studies, while I was in a "searching for solutions" phase. And the one thing I really learned is how scattered the knowledge is within that field.
I'm NOT talking about college level courses. College level courses give you a taste here and there of many subjects so you can get a well rounded education, it is higher education that makes you a specialist in the field of medicine or science or business. Taking psychology in college does not train anyone to identify or treat mental illness. This reads that because you took some classes in college like PSCh 101 and maybe as high as PSCh 201, you think you are now qualified to say knowledge in the field of psychology is too scattered to be taken seriously? Furthermore, you think LRH, who didn't graduate from anything more than High School, created a "tech" to help people that is just as safe as what a physician can deliver? Are you saying even the most highly trained Scientologist are just as good as a doctor? Or do you just not believe mental illness exists?

Because it has so many theories which often contradict, and often it gives very little explanation of which is more significant than others, I had a hard time finding my answers there. So, to me it seemed like it was dependent on the practitioner's person innate abilities and talents.
Fair enough, but you only had a few college classes.

Scientology has a LOT of training also. People who train to Class VI auditor have at least as much actual study time into the field of mental health as someone who has a Masters in psychology. It may not be what YOU think is the answer to emotional and spiritual problems.
Class VI audiotirs might have just as many hours studying but it doesn't mean they are learning anything that qualifies them to be medical professionals.

But I think it does everyone well to grant others the right to their own path

Brian,
I am not talking about a spiritual path.. I'm talking about folks who have an illness and not being treated by those who are qualified to deal with mental illness. You cut off part of my question so I'd still like an answer to that PLEASE!
DO YOU BELIEVE SCIENTOLOGY CAN AUDIT AWAY MENTAL ILLNESS?

Definition of Mental Illness:
A mental illness is a medical condition that disrupts a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning. Just as diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas, mental illnesses are medical conditions that often result in a diminished capacity for coping with the ordinary demands of life.
Serious mental illnesses include major depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), panic disorder, posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and borderline personality disorder.

 

[Andtheyalllived]

Now, I know this board is full of a lot of jaded, disillusioned and upset people.

Man, that one bugged me.
This board is full of people who COULD BE jaded, disillusioned and upset.

Instead, it's a treasure chest of generous, fair, experienced, well-read, supportive, educated, kind and WELCOMING people on the 'net.

Brian, did you observe us in our disillusion, our cynicism? Or is that what you were told to expect?

 

[Purple Rain]

Now, I know this board is full of a lot of jaded, disillusioned and upset people. And I'm not judging them. Having been involved in the Co$ should probably driven them far worse, given the current culture there. These are just my opinions. But I do think they had had some good experiences too. Why else would they have put up with such nonsense for so long?

There are many reasons. Mostly I believed in it. I was saving the world. Now I know I was lied to.

As a staff member I got little Scientology processing. When I did it was as a guinea pig for somebody else. Some processing gave me a high, similar to those I had in Christian worship. The only permanent changes to my "self" - my "identity" - as a result of Scientology were negative. I was harder - less compassionate - more aggressive. I was TRAINED TO LIE and I didn't even realise that this had become my modus operandi in life. I wrote a lot of solicited success stories before Thursday 2pm each week. The training to lie is not always blatant. Also I live in fear of just about everything - incredible anxiety - and guilt, shame, blame. If something goes wrong it must have been me. If I watch a game on television and my team loses I must have jinxed them - lol.

All this has caused terrible problems in my current relationship where to me a TRUTH was an ACCEPTABLE TRUTH - "MY TRUTH". Well, my boyfriend pretty early on realised that things I was being honest about per my "acceptable truths" were in fact half-truths, deceptions and out and out lies. I will be lucky if I ever fully get his trust back, let alone his love - one of the few things I want in this whole world. And I was shocked when he first called me a liar. I had always considered myself an honest and open person. But I could not deny the facts. He would ask me about something and I would tell him whatever sanitised version I had settled on without even giving a thought to any changes in sequence or setting or categorisation. Ironically, early on in our relationship another anon had warned my partner: "Don't get involved with an ex. You can't trust them."

Anyway, I spent a year absolutely shattered trying to come to terms with what I had become and who I wanted to be. Meeting my partner has been the hardest journey of my life, harder than Scientology emotionally, but it has been so good for my development as a whole.

To finally have someone who was willing to be honest about what they saw, who is on my side, and has never left me despite all the heartbreak, has taught me to think about what I really value - what my OWN values are - independent of what I've been taught or other people say they should be and that what counts is not so much what we profess but what we DO as a result of it - do our actions reflect our professed values?

The values in Scientology, as written by Hubbard, are based on the end justifies the means - whatever it takes to ensure the survival of Scientology (or himself) was what was the "greatest good".

Anyway, I did not slave on staff for five years for Scientology because of "wins" but because I bought Hubbard's lies hook, line, and sinker, including his own biographical lies which he used to support his status as an "expert", lies about Clears and OTs that were patent in the "clears" and "OTs" living the damaged lives I saw around me. The competent OTs were always those that came into Scientology already successful.

Basically I thought I would go to Scientology's version of hell or purgatory or whatever "losing one's eternity" means, as luridly painted by Hubbard, if I left. Not only that but my kids would "lose their eternity" also. It was only when I realised it was my own mind trapping me there that I stepped out of the cage and walked free.

 

[degraded being]

Yeah... About some of that wild stuff... Lol

I think people who are not in get the idea that those that are just want to be supermen. And I can see from videos like that how you might get that idea. But I think most are really just looking to improve their lives and relationships.

Personally, I take that with a grain of salt. I think it's probably bring oversold just as Hubbard did. But I don't know. I'm looking for spiritual gain. And talk like that has been prevalent in Buddhist circles for much longer than it has in Scientology. I have no idea if it's true or not. I'm OK whether it is or not. It's not really what I'm looking for.

Buddhism is not about gaining superhuman powers. (If that's what you were saying).

 

[David C Gibbons]

Boy, this has turned into one powerful thread - thanks to all who are participating.

 

[Gadfly]

Buddhism is not about gaining superhuman powers. (If that's what you were saying).

That is not entirely true.

There are many sects and offshoots of "pure" Buddhism (whatever THAT is).

Tibetan Buddhism is riddled with the esoteric, the magic, the telepathy, the leaving the body, and so forth.

The creation of Tulpas, which involves advanced visualization techniques, aims to create a lasting thought-form that will attract substance and manifest as a living breathing entity.

Those monks who spent thousands of years in the isolated mountains of Tibet often invested a great deal of time messing around with "advanced abilities". At least that is what I get from all that I have read over the years.

Now, for me, NO, my personal interest in Buddhism is not about gaining superhuman powers. And, truly dedicated spiritual aspirants following Buddhism also tend to be steered away from such diversions. The "pure" view is that such interests are a detriment to spiritual advancement, and I agree.

But there are segments of Buddhism (and Hinduism) that REALLY get into that sort of thing quite intensely. Especially Tibetan Buddhism.

 

[FlunkYou]

There are a lot of things in this world that are unexplainable: people spontaneously combusting, mothers lifting crashed cars off their infants, people surviving a freefall after their parachute does not open...
this:
[video=youtube;TesAxbcJjQc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TesAxbcJjQc[/video]

I know 2 sisters who both got breast cancer (neither one a scientologist). One attacked the disease with with chemo and her faith only (Christianity I believe). The other used chemo as well as any and all other practices like reiki, nutrition, prayer and whatever else that seemed right to her. Needless to say the one with the open mind and spirit was the one that survived.

I know for a fact the mind is very powerful. I, myself, have my own experiences which I may share later. But for now, I don't begrudge anyone doing what they think is right for them. What didn't work for me doesn't mean it won't work for someone else...no matter what "it" is.

My problem with the cult is the sheep attitude, the blinders to all else, the greed, and the broken promises it held for ME.

 

[Andtheyalllived]

Basically I thought I would go to Scientology's version of hell or purgatory or whatever "losing one's eternity" means, as luridly painted by Hubbard, if I left. Not only that but my kids would "lose their eternity" also. It was only when I realised it was my own mind trapping me there that I stepped out of the cage and walked free.

That was some valuable stuff right there, to Brian or anyone else who's ready for the taking.
You did good.

 

[Infinite]

I like that question! If I agreed that training in mental health in academia was the right answer for people, is probably ask the same thing.

Let me just preface everything I say here with... This is my perception. I don't mean to tell anyone it has to be theirs too.

I do agree that there are people that can probably be helped by some of the treatments in the mental health field including, as a last resort, medicine to keep them from hurting themselves and others. But I don't agree that there is something significant in mental health training within academia that makes anything safe that isn't in Scientology training. I've taken many psychology courses in my college studies, while I was in a "searching for solutions" phase. And the one thing I really learned is how scattered the knowledge is within that field.

Because it has so many theories which often contradict, and often it gives very little explanation of which is more significant than others, I had a hard time finding my answers there. So, to me it seemed like it was dependent on the practitioner's person innate abilities and talents.

Scientology has a LOT of training also. People who train to Class VI auditor have at least as much actual study time into the field of mental health as someone who has a Masters in psychology. It may not be what YOU think is the answer to emotional and spiritual problems.

But I think it does everyone well to grant others the right to their own path

Sure, medical science isn't all that its cracked up to be, some systems are flawed, and, especially in the US, when profit is so often the motive, an individual's needs can get momentarily lost in a wider agenda within mental health care. But - formally trained mental health professionals are required to implement learning as an on-going activity, the drugs and therapies have been tested and proven to have efficacy, and where a new model or drug or approach is developed which has greater efficacy, it is largely adopted within that field. Not only that, individual therapists are personally and professionally liable should they make a mistake. Public indemnity insurance is a large overhead for these people. Also, mental health professionals are required to discuss all aspects of the treatment they offer and make a concerted effort to ensure the client provides informed consent. Scientology is the opposite. There is no informed consent. No KSW Standard L Ron Hubbard Scientology Auditor is going to discuss Xenu with a pre-Clear. There is no confidentiality. The treatment model is rigidly fixed in the blether of unproven and unlikely bald assertions made last century by a known liar and fraudster.

I can (have to) live with people believing Scientology is a religion. L Ron Hubbard spent a fortune putting the religious cloaking in place and, I have to admit, did a very good job of it. Scientology, however, is not and never has been a therapy. To promote it as such is, IMHO, mendacious and dangerous. There are all sorts of reasons for this, here's one: when it comes to Scientology training, one of an Auditor's most important tasks is to record Ethics situations in PC folders for subsequent use against the PC should they prove troublesome. This one example, I suggest, highlights "something significant" when it comes to the difference between Scientology training and formal mental health training.

 

[Gadfly]

Basically I thought I would go to Scientology's version of hell or purgatory or whatever "losing one's eternity" means, as luridly painted by Hubbard, if I left. Not only that but my kids would "lose their eternity" also.

It was only when I realized it was my own mind trapping me there that I stepped out of the cage and walked free.

BINGO!

THAT is the crux of all mind control. The manipulator gets YOU to yourself build the bars for the prison that you erect around yourself. You build the prison bars with concepts, with agreements, and with considerations.

Hubbard comes right out and clearly states that it is only considerations and agreements that limit any person on any dynamic. Ones OWN ideas cause the disabilities.

And, in Scientology Hubbard tricks his followers into accepting an entire set of weird considerations and agreements that do exactly the same thing - these ideas and agreements limit the person and instills NEW disabilities.

Hubbard was a real slick deceiver.

He manages to place you in a (mental) prison while convincing you that he is freeing you. What better way to trick and trap a person - on the promises of freedom. In Hubbard's terms THAT is a "theta trap" - and he built one of the best theta traps out there!

He explains all about theta traps, and the over-trusting follower assumes that if Hubbard is explaining all about these traps that he was be actively working to prevent people from falling victim to them. But that is part of the ruse - it is actually part of the grand design of the trap.

 

[2briancox]

Hi Brian,

Our paths may have crossed when you were in Minnesota. My husband Brad and I were on lines at the Twin Cities org for many years, until we left 3 years ago. I also have many friends in Washington.

Welcome, good to fear from you.

Natalie

Cool. Do you know Lance Koehler?

 

[2briancox]

Miss Wog:

I don't buy the idea that the state obtained from medicating mental illness is always a permanent improvement. I think you've often just succeeded in hiding the person from themselves.

I've seen too many friends and others that had real problems that could have been addressed ... in many ways. Not just Scientological ones. And instead someone in the mental health system decided that they just needed to be medicated: permanently. It made the person unable to really address the root cause of their problems. They just turn off emotionally, often for the rest of their lives.

I agree there are interventions that need to be made and there are also people that have serious troubles brain-wise that require medicines because they can't function because of an imbalance otherwise.

But I don't buy that the system of mental health should be treated as some authority on the field of mental health in general. It works for some. And it does a fair amount of irreparable damage for others.

And to be clear, Scientology should not be used to address someone who has a serious need for medications because of a major mental imbalance. And, in fact, in the FreeZone, it's not. The Class VI I know won't touch people who need medical attention, including psychiatric medical attention.

And I hope I've made this clear: Scientology is not for everyone. I don't want to give the impression that it is. And I don't think anything I've said gives the impression that it is.