Do not try to reason with a Scientologist

[johnAnchovie]

This article is about the entrenched political view. But it is equally applicable to efforts that we may make to try to wake up the culties.

It provides much food for thought and I recommend that you read it carefully. There is a little gem of a solution in there... you find it and tell me what you think.

http://www.alternet.org/media/most-depressing-discovery-about-brain-ever?akid=10942.1085545.GVE6Gg&rd=1&src=newsletter897556&t=8

A teaser...


AlterNet /
By Marty Kaplan
comments_image 316 COMMENTS

The Most Depressing Discovery About the Brain, Ever

Say goodnight to the dream that education, journalism, scientific evidence, or reason can provide the tools that people need in order to make good decisions.
September 16, 2013 |


Yale law school professor Dan Kahan’s new research paper is called “Motivated Numeracy and Enlightened Self-Government,” but for me a better title is the headline on science writer Chris Mooney’s piece about it in Grist: “Science Confirms: Politics Wrecks Your Ability to Do Math.”

Kahan conducted some ingenious experiments about the impact of political passion on people’s ability to think clearly. His conclusion, in Mooney’s words: partisanship “can even undermine our very basic reasoning skills…. [People] who are otherwise very good at math may totally flunk a problem that they would otherwise probably be able to solve, simply because giving the right answer goes against their political beliefs.”

 

[Idle Morgue]

In order to successfully "reason" with a Scientologist - you have to know your "tech"! If you know it - you can point out the atrocities over and over and over. They will meet you with justifications galore, like these in black - to be met with reason in red ink.

"I don't know...I was not there".
Well, I knew you would say that so I have a video tape of the incident!

"I have never heard anything about that".
Well, here is the court document and video of Debbie Cook's deposition. Also, Scientology put out this video tape of her signing a "gag order" when she wanted to leave her volunteer position after 30 years. Why would a CHURCH video tape her signing this without her own legal representation?? What kind of Church does this to a loyal member that served as a volunteer for 30 years???

"Scientology is a new religion going through growing pains like all other religions".
That may be true - but doesn't Scientology have to be civil to people if it is a religion? Don't they have to tell the truth and honor human being's basic human rights?

"It was an individual that did that....people make mistakes".
I don't think the Registrar gives themselves $1,000,000 in sales they have to meet each week, do you?

"We are building a new Civilization with broken pieces".
At what point does Scientology work? Do the pieces ever get fixed? People spend a fortune to get MORE ABLE but Scientology is disabling people - they are broke, bankrupt,divorced, shattered families, alone and isolated, broken and in apathy due to giving all of their money to Scientology and getting nothing in return! WHEN DOES IT WORK??? Show me one CLEAR or OT that matches the promises given by Scientology. Where are the "Homo Novus" people?

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[scooter]

It's the "get-them-to-feel-good-about-themselves" that was the only thing that MAY change the pattern - like the "get them to talk about their wins in the cult" that I've read is the best way to start exit counselling.

Just had someone today ask me for help with a relative in hospital from a cult experience - that was the only piece of info I could safely give them. Contradictory facts never work on someone who "knows" they're right.

 

[AnonyMary]

People who said the economy was the most important issue to them, and who disapproved of Obama’s economic record, were shown a graph of nonfarm employment over the prior year – a rising line, adding about a million jobs. They were asked whether the number of people with jobs had gone up, down or stayed about the same. Many, looking straight at the graph, said down.

But if, before they were shown the graph, they were asked to write a few sentences about an experience that made them feel good about themselves, a significant number of them changed their minds about the economy. If you spend a few minutes affirming your self-worth, you’re more likely to say that the number of jobs increased.

Is this what you mean, John? Do something like this before showing facts to someone in order to get them to actually be willing to see them?

 

[Claire Swazey]

Friends of mine have mentioned occasionally bumping into someone they used to know-who's still in Cof$- in a restaurant, supermarket, etc. And the churchie is generally all upset and red in the face and looking away and all that. Sometimes my friends have had a chance to say something and some have sent emails to those still in. Never well received, they just don't listen.

I mean, obviously some of them listen cuz many have read the 'net or talked to friends and left. But when they're really entrenched in the mindset, it's damn near impossible to reason with them.

The reason anyone still tries is that they do see people leave and they- we- hope that this will happen with others.

 

[Axiom142]

Food for thought indeed, John.

I have come to a similar conclusion myself. Adherence to Scientology, or at least remaining in the cult is not a rational thing. So, merely appealing to reason won’t do the job. At least not on its own.

Human beings don’t react to facts, they react to emotion. Show, don’t tell.

By all means give them some easily digestible facts, especially ones that will shock (e.g. “Do you know that St Hill is no longer St Hill-sized?”, “The CoS was recently convicted of fraud in a major European country [don’t tell them which one, then they have to look it up]?”, “Rex Fowler, 30 year Scn and auditing on OTVII, is serving a life sentence for murder”, “You are told that Scientology will make you successful, but Matt Feshbach, OTVIII and one of the Scientology financial ‘experts’ is now bankrupt. Why do you think that is?” etc), but you have to hit them with something that they feel in their gut, not their head. Tell them you’ve heard from the mother, brother, son that they have disconnected from. Comment on how miserable they look or ask them why they never did that college course they always wanted to.

Tell them you are not against them, but for them. You don’t want them to continue to be taken advantage of or abused any more. You care about them.

Most times they will get very angry. I think that is a good sign, it shows that you have broken through the top layer of defence. If they show fear, ask them what they are afraid of.

If you can break through the armour, the facts might sink in. But, it could be a personal tragedy years down the line that causes them to remember what you said and start thinking.

Axiom142

 

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

Thanks John

since I am just borrowing someone's computer I will just makes some quick notes here.
not politics per se but Emotion. Feel, Felt, Found, Ruin, VGI's, core feelings and attitudes,

More at another time....

 

[AnonyMary]

Here is an excellent example of of why reasoning does not work ( an overload of informtion does not help either)
From: SCIENTOLOGY’S PRIVATE DANCER: A Story of Seduction, Intervention, and Betrayal

[video=youtube_share;JUAlWVXcAJY]http://youtu.be/JUAlWVXcAJY[/video]
http://tonyortega.org/2013/09/02/manuela-oliveira-a-story-of-seduction-intervention-and-betrayal/

 

[I told you I was trouble]

I have no issue with adult people being in any cult/religion ... they have every right to live life as they wish to, I really dislike seeing the attempted recruitment of others though and will jeer at them with no hesitation at all.

When I was in the cult myself I really didn't want to be there at all (despite anything I would have said at the time) and it was seeing 'normal' people just doing very ordinary things that always pulled at my heart strings ... so when dealing with a scientologist I just behave as a normal person and talk about those things that we are (now) able to do, I make no 'allowances' for the abnormal life they are living (if on staff).

I've always believed that a person is ready when they're ready (to leave) and not before, but just knowing that someone will catch them when they jump must be comforting ... and I always make sure they know that I am here for them should they need me and wish I'd had someone there for me when I desperately needed them to be.

I will however fiercely try and protect anyone who is on the way out (by trying to make sure they have space to think, feel and work out which direction they want to go in) but that's a different issue.

 

[HelluvaHoax!]

It's the "get-them-to-feel-good-about-themselves" that was the only thing that MAY change the pattern - like the "get them to talk about their wins in the cult" that I've read is the best way to start exit counselling.

Yeah, okay--asking for wins, but. . .

I would absolutely dread asking a Scientologist that question. LOL

Ummm, aren't there any other questions I could ask instead?



Wait!!! I just re-read the question. It's not as bad as I thought. I kinda like it actually. . .

HELLUVAHOAX!
Talk about your wins in the cult.

SCIENTOLOGIST
It's not a cult.

HELLUVAHOAX!
That's soooooooo wrong! OMG, don't
you read the freakin' Internet, stupid?
Wait, where are you going?

​

Never mind, I suddenly feel good about talking to Scientologists in my universe. My space is calm and I now have certainty that I can find parking spaces--on this planet. ​

​

 

[johnAnchovie]

Is this what you mean, John? Do something like this before showing facts to someone in order to get them to actually be willing to see them?

That is what I extrapolated from the study. Self worth, the sense that you are a good and bright person with something to give can counteract the kind of negativity that cults - political and religious - prey upon.

Interestingly, as the cutlic edifice was collapsing for me it was in tandem with work I was doing in the Birmingham community where very few knew that I was a Scientologist, much less an SO member working toward what amounted to a malevolent end.

I received a lot of positive validation and recognition from community leaders for the work I was doing, my sense of self as a valuable individual, as someone who as himself could do good and be valuable as opposed to a 'dedicated SO member' gave me pause for thought and energized me to start really asking questions of Hubbard and the cult.

It makes sense also when viewed against work in inner city schools - The Freedom Writers project comes to mind.

 

[johnAnchovie]

It's the "get-them-to-feel-good-about-themselves" that was the only thing that MAY change the pattern - like the "get them to talk about their wins in the cult" that I've read is the best way to start exit counselling.

Just had someone today ask me for help with a relative in hospital from a cult experience - that was the only piece of info I could safely give them. Contradictory facts never work on someone who "knows" they're right.

I don't think it about taking through 'wins', rather it is something on a more fundamental level. See my reply to anonmary. It is that sense that they have done something good and valuable as opposed to a subjective mental 'cognition' whatever that is supposed to mean...

 

[scooter]

I don't think it about taking through 'wins', rather it is something on a more fundamental level. See my reply to anonmary. It is that sense that they have done something good and valuable as opposed to a subjective mental 'cognition' whatever that is supposed to mean...

Thanks John - I'm helping with an exit counselling right now (from another cult) and I'll see if the family involved will use this.

Will let you know how it goes.

 

[ThetanExterior]

I tried putting myself back into the mindset I had as a scientologist to see how I would react to all of these points that posters have made.

To be honest, it wouldn't matter what anyone said or showed me that was anti-scientology. I would simply tell them that those were "enemy lines" and the reason they believed them was because they had overts and missed withholds. I would then point them to the correct scientology service they needed to do. Any current member of the CofS that even reads what you show them or listens to what you say that is anti-scientology isn't really fully committed and should either route themself to ethics or get the hell out and be declared.

Phew, that was too damn easy to go back to that scio attitude. I need a rest now.

 

[ThetanExterior]

Further to my previous post, I think the point is that a person has to have doubts about the CofS first before they can be persuaded to come out. A bit like an addict having the need to change before they can be helped.

 

[Freeminds]

(snip)

You're absolutely right: while 'in' the Scientology victim will always defend Hubbard, and Hubbardism, despite their own gnawing worries about money, how they never have enough time for family and friends, and the abuses they have witnessed.

A few years ago I was in contact with Michelle [redacted] and it was obvious she wasn't a Happy Clam... yet whenever I picked away at the fraying edges of Scientology's cloak of respectability, down came the shutters and her responses became robotic (and, incidentally, incredibly unconvincing) leaving me to wonder if Scientology victims do TRs in blanket denial, now.

Like a lot of staffers, Michelle distrusted Miscavige and his cronies, and was alarmed by the shrinkage in numbers... but (AFAIK: she severed all contact) she still judges Scientology under the Midget to be her best shot at getting up the bridge.

I suspect that more than a few unhappy Scientology staffers are clinging on in the belief that "any day now, Ron will be back to sort this mess out."

Oy.

 

[Lurker5]

Needs a