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PTS to Skeptics?

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
I just came across this wonderful article / booklet about debunking (pseudo-)skeptics.
Winston has done an excellent job of sticking it to those lazy idiots who insist that you do all the work.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Contents.htm

This is an excellent tool for those of us who might feel a bit PTS to those people who have

  • never seen a tone arm move in a session (as an auditor)
  • never felt an F/N, cog, VGIs, release as a pc
  • never had case gain of any type
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
I just came across this wonderful article / booklet about debunking (pseudo-)skeptics.
Winston has done an excellent job of sticking it to those lazy idiots who insist that you do all the work.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Contents.htm

This is an excellent tool for those of us who might feel a bit PTS to those people who have

  • never seen a tone arm move in a session (as an auditor)
  • never felt an F/N, cog, VGIs, release as a pc
  • never had case gain of any type

Debunking skeptics - because being gullible and ripped off is so much more fun.
 

Cat's Squirrel

Gold Meritorious Patron
Debunking skeptics - because being gullible and ripped off is so much more fun.

I don't think the guy is saying anyone ought to be gullible, or that they shouldn't be skeptical. He's attacking an attitude of mind which claims to be skeptical but in fact does something else;

"As mentioned earlier, a skeptic doubts, inquires, questions, ponders, etc. But these pseudoskeptics do anything but. They attack, ridicule, discredit and suppress anything and everything that challenges the materialist reductionist paradigm."

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/hijackingterms.php
 
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Purple Rain

Crusader
I don't think the guy is saying anyone ought to be gullible, or that they shouldn't be skeptical; he's attacking an attitude of mind which claims to be skeptical but in fact does something else;

"As mentioned earlier, a skeptic doubts, inquires, questions, ponders, etc. But these pseudoskeptics do anything but. They attack, ridicule, discredit and suppress anything and everything that challenges the materialist reductionist paradigm."

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/hijackingterms.php

However, that was NOT the agenda of the OP here, was it?
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
PTS so skeptics is such an... enlightening concept.

So, the product of Scientology and/or Independent Scientology is an inability to confront anyone who is skeptical?

The product of Scientology and/or Independent Scientology is to be PTS to anyone who is skeptical?

Sign me up.
 

olska

Silver Meritorious Patron
I just came across this wonderful article / booklet about debunking (pseudo-)skeptics.
Winston has done an excellent job of sticking it to those lazy idiots who insist that you do all the work.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Contents.htm

This is an excellent tool for those of us who might feel a bit Potential Trouble Source to those people who have

  • never seen a tone arm move in a session (as an auditor)
  • never felt an F/N, cog, VGIs, release as a pc
  • never had case gain of any type

FIFY.

Abbreviations can be soooooo confusing sometimes .... makes so much more sense with it written out in full dontcha think? if it still doesn't make sense, next step is look up the three words in a dictionary... if it still doesn't make sense, well, I think you know what to do.... :coolwink:
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
I just came across this wonderful article / booklet about debunking (pseudo-)skeptics.
Winston has done an excellent job of sticking it to those lazy idiots who insist that you do all the work.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Contents.htm

This is an excellent tool for those of us who might feel a bit PTS to those people who have

  • never seen a tone arm move in a session (as an auditor)
  • never felt an F/N, cog, VGIs, release as a pc
  • never had case gain of any type
Yeah, I've seen this bs before: "How can you criticize Scientology if you've never been a Scientologist?"

Total crap. "Don't accept any criticisms from anyone who hasn't been indoctrinated into Scientology's thought control."
 

CommunicatorIC

@IndieScieNews on Twitter
Yeah, I've seen this bs before: "How can you criticize Scientology if you've never been a Scientologist?"

Total crap. "Don't accept any criticisms from anyone who hasn't been indoctrinated into Scientology's thought control."
For the love of Xenu and His Most Holy Body Thetans, not this Catch 22 again. This dates back to the ARS days. Can't these Exorcists With E-meters (EWEs) come up to present time and come up with anything new?

The Catch 22 argument goes like this:

One cannot properly criticize Scientology unless one has practiced Scientology.

If one has practiced Scientology, has left the Church of Scientology, and now has criticisms, then one is bitter defrocked apostate. [Insert bought and paid for opinion of a New Religions "scholar" about the unreliability of apostate testimony.]

Therefore, nobody can criticize Scientology.

How convenient.
 
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Udarnik

Gold Meritorious Patron
Sigh. Yet another logical fallacy propagated by Scientology. If I've seen the guts of an emeter and can tell you what it does and what it's measuring (probably better than you can), why do I need to see someone move one in an auditing session? Just go to the recent piece published by that Australian journalist who was thinking about getting high in Barcelona when he moved the needle. Any truths you glean from an emeter session are purely projection onto semi-random movements.

Is the random movement of a meter I am intimately familiar with supposed to impress me in the hands of a stranger? Really? You need to get a better grip on the scientific method, dude, because the plural of anecdote is not "data".

And from there you go to "felt" and a whole list of vague terms? Bad scientific method to have vague terms, but using the term "feel" really gives real scientists the willies, you know?

And I've had "case gain" of the type you describe, at least being cause over my life. Every time I've gained another degree or spent tenure on a job, I've grown in knowledge, wisdom, and earnings potential.

Granted, I still find parking spots just as hard to locate as your average OT.

Skeptics aren't making fun of you for suggesting there might be things that science can't explain.

There are plenty of such things at the current moment. But you don't appear mentally equipped to identify them with any accuracy.

We are making fun of you for taking easily explainable phenomena, wrapping them in horse shit and logical fallacies, and then asking us to believe your explanation over ours without any good evidence except a floating fucking needle on a meter that measures something as physiologically well understood as skin conductivity and resistance.

But there's more to life than evidence, you say?

[video=youtube;ZI-Uu94vINg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZI-Uu94vINg[/video]

Get in the fucking sack!
 
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Gib

Crusader
I just came across this wonderful article / booklet about debunking (pseudo-)skeptics.
Winston has done an excellent job of sticking it to those lazy idiots who insist that you do all the work.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Contents.htm

This is an excellent tool for those of us who might feel a bit PTS to those people who have

  • never seen a tone arm move in a session (as an auditor)
  • never felt an F/N, cog, VGIs, release as a pc
  • never had case gain of any type

well, I've experienced all three points highlighted in red.

Do I feel PTS from somebody criticizing scientology or the tech, or me having been a scientologist. Answer is NO. ( I assume you mean going PTS means loss of "case gain").

What is the point of your post?

I could say "show me a mother fucking "clear" as Jason Beghe said.

But I know you know the scientology bridge is hyped up nonsense per your past postings here, I researched them. So what are you trying to communicate?

And what exactly do mean by "case gain"?

What "case", or do you mean the "case" created by LRH's scientology and evaluation & what to think of our so called "case"?

Or maybe you mean "case" to be an improvement of some abilities?
 

Spirit

just another son of God
My 2 cents: Assigning someone as source of one's PTSness gives power over to the person(s) you delegate as cause. They are not the source, oneself is.
 
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Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
I just came across this wonderful article / booklet about debunking (pseudo-)skeptics.
Winston has done an excellent job of sticking it to those lazy idiots who insist that you do all the work.

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Contents.htm

This is an excellent tool for those of us who might feel a bit PTS to those people who have

  • never seen a tone arm move in a session (as an auditor)
  • never felt an F/N, cog, VGIs, release as a pc
  • never had case gain of any type

Nice to see you back here.
 

Claire Swazey

Spokeshole, fence sitter
My 2 cents: Assigning someone as source of one's PTSness gives power over to the person(s) that you delegate as cause. They are not the source, oneself is.


That's actually the EP of the PTS rundown, though a lot of Scn'ists surely like to play the blame game.
 

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
well, I've experienced all three points highlighted in red.

Do I feel PTS from somebody criticizing scientology or the tech, or me having been a scientologist. Answer is NO. ( I assume you mean going PTS means loss of "case gain").

What is the point of your post?

I could say "show me a mother fucking "clear" as Jason Beghe said.

But I know you know the scientology bridge is hyped up nonsense per your past postings here, I researched them. So what are you trying to communicate?

And what exactly do mean by "case gain"?

What "case", or do you mean the "case" created by LRH's scientology and evaluation & what to think of our so called "case"?

Or maybe you mean "case" to be an improvement of some abilities?

>well, I've experienced all three points highlighted in red.
Good for you. :yes:

>But I know you know the scientology bridge is hyped up
Definitely, but not the nonsense part.

>I could say "show me a mother fucking "clear" as Jason Beghe said.
I don't think the Book One Clear definition has yet been achieved in as much as the first dynamic Clear didn't meet expectations / promises.

>What is the point of your post?
I think that article really hits the nail on the head. There are some (pseudo-)skeptics who could never be convinced. Whatever evidence for anything they didn't agree with would be met with increasing degrees of antagonism and insults. It is a lesson in true skepticism. I feel many could benefit from the consideration that their own world view could cloud their judgement. Seeing through a lens that forbids particular possibilities means not seeing clearly.

>And what exactly do mean by "case gain"?
Well in many respects that is a personal thing. Typically people get benefit from different processes. Process A on one person can have dramatic and life changing effects whereas for another person that process may have no big effect. The hype is that it is presented that everyone should have the same benefit as that one person who got excellent results. An untruth (lie).

I would bet that anyone who spent a lot of time and money in Scientology had some benefit, including Jason Beghe. What happens is that you notice the change when it happens, and then it is the new normal, and you can tend to forget that. Then the improvements perhaps get less frequent and the unrelenting sales pitches and regging perhaps become intolerable and one leaves. That doesn't mean that nothing happened originally to get you started and keep you going. It means the later misery allowed us to forget.

>What "case", or do you mean the "case" created by LRH's scientology
I don't for a minute believe LRH "made up" our cases. There are millions of people on this planet, if not hundreds of millions, who are doing things to improve their state of being, whether that be by transcendental meditation, counselling using empathy with a horse, Paul's robot, martial arts ... The list is endless. I have noticed that often when somebody gets deeply into some subject they can try to make that subject take them to a higher state of awareness. I bet you could even develop knitting as a subject, and have genuine case gain from that (like an objectives process). And that is a laudable goal.

I just think those of us who were "in" for a long time shouldn't deny to ourselves any benefits we did attain just because the organisation itself is, well not to put to fine a point on it, suppressive!
>( I assume you mean going PTS means loss of "case gain").
Denying (to oneself even) that one ever had any gain is not entirely unrelated, is it?

It's like that comedy sketch ...
"What did the Romans ever do for us?"
"Oh you mean apart from the roads, the aqueducts, under-floor heating, baths ..."
"Yes, yes, apart from those." :duh:
 

Lesolee (Sith Lord)

Patron Meritorious
That's actually the EP of the PTS rundown, though a lot of Scn'ists surely like to play the blame game.

Ok, you got me :duh:
It seemed credible so I accepted your Verbal Tech :no:

PTS Rundown, Audited: Bulletin 9 Dec 71RD
"THE EP IS A PC WHO IS GETTING AND KEEPING CASE GAINS AND NEVER AGAIN ROLLER-COASTERS"

Now I have to write myself up and turn myself in to Ethics for accepting your Verbal Tech :bigcry:
 

Bill

Gold Meritorious Patron
Denying (to oneself even) that one ever had any gain is not entirely unrelated, is it?

It's like that comedy sketch ...
"What did the Romans ever do for us?"
"Oh you mean apart from the roads, the aqueducts, under-floor heating, baths ..."
"Yes, yes, apart from those." :duh:
I like the hubris of Scientologists and some ex-Scientologists. It looks like this:
  • The "gains" from Scientology are not available from anywhere else, although they appear identical to gains people get every day all around the world from other activities.
  • Scientology is the cause of all gains a person has while "a Scientologist". No matter what living normal lives and experiencing normal events in their lives has done.
  • Without Scientology, no one would have had these (totally normal) "benefits".
  • The gains of Scientology, though temporary, are invaluable.
  • Even though the processes of Scientology do not produce the results promised and, in fact, produce results far less predictable and far less significant than other, tested and more effective therapies, Scientology processes must be preserved because, "gains!"
  • Ignore all the built-in harm that exists in Scientology because "there were some gains".
Sure I "had gains" during my time in Scientology. But this is true: I would have helped more people, had more benefit and more gains and would have led a much happier and more productive life if I had never been in Scientology. Being a Scientologist was a huge net loss.

The best thing a person can do with Scientology is avoid it at all costs. Their lives will be better for it.
 

Lermanet_com

Gold Meritorious Patron
My 2 cents: Assigning someone as source of one's PTSness gives power over to the person(s) you delegate as cause. They are not the source, oneself is.

The sick in soul insist that it is humanity that is sick, and they are the surgeons to operate on it. They want to turn the world into a sickroom. And once they get humanity strapped to the operating table, they operate on it with an ax.

Eric Hoffer: The Passionate State of Mind, aph. 104 (1955)

and this from Eric Hoffer's "True Believer"

"Usually the strength of a mass movement is proportionate to the vividness and tangibility of its devil. When Hitler was asked whether he thought the Jew must be destroyed, he answered: “No…We should have then to invent him. It is essential to have a tangible enemy, not merely an abstract one. ” (p91)"

In $cientology the intangible enemy is the reactive mind, (also called your BANK, perhaps a covert suggestion to make it easier for you to part with your savings and make their demands for money difficult to resist) and the tangible enemy are SPs, PSYCHS...and you guys.

"In his later writings, Eric Hoffer reviewed the only three choices you have if you are the devil to a mass movement: threaten and attack, turn the other cheek, stand your ground. Threats and coercion make things worse because you act like a devil, to the delight of the fanatics. Turning the other cheek doesn’t work because it inflames hatred, which springs from guilt and a sense of inferiority. The only historically successful protection for a devil is to take a clear, firm, non-threatening stand, which he defends with everything he’s got."

I call that Stepping into it.

Arnie Lerma
 
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