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Thomas Jefferson Quotes

Free Being Me

Crusader
There was no drama about the holiday. I just took exception to a quote that I considered hypocritical. I was then attacked personally and called rude for commenting on it.

If you understood U.S. history and the context of the times therein (political, social, slavery, gender, patriarchal) then you might just avoid such comments as "I understand that you still feel the need to justify slavery" which is just silly.

Are you a hypocrite because you were once a $cientologist and now speak out on ESMB? Apply that to times of slavery and what Thomas Jefferson was trying to do, mostly alone. Could you sink $cientology all by your lonesome?
 

Mystic

Crusader
We need a real American song to cheer up this thread. Here, I'll sing one:

Oh beautiful for chemtrail skys

For Monsanto fields of grain

....
 

Gib

Crusader
You free the slave into freedom, of course. Often they had to escape to achieve that, such as Frederick Douglass.

[video=youtube;31fc_sCfios]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31fc_sCfios[/video]

Rarely the slave owner emancipated them. Because one slave was worth a lot of money, often even if they promised freedom they didn't deliver. Because, well, money.

reread what I wrote.

The clip you provided shows no docs, but convincing words, and just pictures but not real pictures from the time period to show actual proof.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
If you understood U.S. history and the context of the times therein (political, social, slavery, gender, patriarchal) then you might just avoid such comments as "I understand that you still feel the need to justify slavery" which is just silly.

Are you a hypocrite because you were once a $cientologist and now speak out on ESMB? Apply that to times of slavery and what Thomas Jefferson was trying to do.

What I am seeing is justification for slavery - everybody else did it - all the plantation owners did it - etc. It was okay for Jefferson because.... No. Some people might have been la-di-dah fiddle dee dee I just grew up with it people but he KNEW by his own admission it was EVIL and he still kept doing it. He could have led by example. He could have freed his slaves. He could have freed his children. He had the power to set people free, no matter how few, and he didn't lift a finger.

He was no Oskar Schindler.

And I have studied four units of US history with an A grade result, making it onto the Dean's List.

Not everybody sees the same set of facts in the same light. Some people see a hypocrite and call them a hypocrite, especially descendants of the less independent.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Thomas Jefferson lived 1743 – 1826.

From Wiki:
The first attempts to end slavery in the British/American colonies came from Thomas Jefferson and some of his contemporaries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism_in_the_United_States

Frederick Douglass lived 1818 – 1895. By then, Jefferson's efforts had snowballed and there was an underground railroad and Northern states where he could live a free man.

As President, on March 2, 1807, Jefferson signed the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves and it took effect in 1808, which was the earliest allowed under the Constitution. In 1820 he privately supported the Missouri Compromise, believing it would help to end slavery.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] He left the anti-slavery struggle to younger men after that.[SUP][6][/SUP]

William Lloyd Garrison, founder of the American Anti-Slavery Society


In the 1850s in the fifteen states constituting the American South, slavery was established legally. While it was fading away in the cities and border states, it remained strong in plantation areas that grew cotton for export, or sugar, tobacco or hemp. By the 1860 United States Census, the slave population in the United States had grown to four million.[SUP][7][/SUP] American abolitionism was based in the North, and white Southerners alleged it fostered slave rebellion.

The white abolitionist movement in the North was led by social reformers, especially William Lloyd Garrison, founder of the American Anti-Slavery Society; writers such as John Greenleaf Whittier and Harriet Beecher Stowe. Black activists included former slaves such as Frederick Douglass; and free blacks such as the brothers Charles Henry Langston and John Mercer Langston, who helped found the Ohio Anti-Slavery Society.[SUP][8][/SUP] Some abolitionists said that slavery was criminal and a sin; they also criticized slave owners of using black women as concubines and taking sexual advantage of them.[SUP][9][/SUP]
The Republican Party wanted to achieve the gradual extinction of slavery by market forces, for its members believed that free labor was superior to slave labor. Southern leaders said the Republican policy of blocking the expansion of slavery into the West made them second-class citizens, and challenged their autonomy. With the 1860 presidential victory of Abraham Lincoln, seven Deep South states whose economy was based on cotton and slavery decided to secede and form a new nation. The American Civil War broke out in April 1861 with the firing on Fort Sumter in South Carolina. When Lincoln called for troops to suppress the rebellion, four more slave states seceded. In 1863, Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
reread what I wrote.

The clip you provided shows no docs, but convincing words, and just pictures but not real pictures from the time period to show actual proof.

Frederick Douglass is Frederick Douglass. What docs do I need??
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
Thomas Jefferson lived 1743 – 1826.

From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abolitionism_in_the_United_States

Frederick Douglass lived 1818 – 1895. By then, Jefferson's efforts had snowballed and there was an underground railroad and Northern states where he could live a free man.

As President, on March 2, 1807, Jefferson signed the Act Prohibiting Importation of Slaves and it took effect in 1808, which was the earliest allowed under the Constitution. In 1820 he privately supported the Missouri Compromise, believing it would help to end slavery.[SUP][3][/SUP][SUP][5][/SUP] He left the anti-slavery struggle to younger men after that.[SUP][6][/SUP]

William Lloyd Garrison, founder of the American Anti-Slavery Society


In the 1850s in the fifteen states constituting the American South, slavery was established legally. While it was fading away in the cities and border states, it remained strong in plantation areas that grew cotton for export, or sugar, tobacco or hemp. By the 1860 United States Census, the slave population in the United States had grown to four million.[SUP][7][/SUP] American abolitionism was based in the North, and white Southerners alleged it fostered slave rebellion.

The white abolitionist movement in the North was led by social reformers, especially William Lloyd Garrison, founder of the American Anti-Slavery Society; writers such as John Greenleaf Whittier and Harriet Beecher Stowe. Black activists included former slaves such as Frederick Douglass; and free blacks such as the brothers Charles Henry Langston and John Mercer Langston, who helped found the Ohio Anti-Slavery Society.[SUP][8][/SUP] Some abolitionists said that slavery was criminal and a sin; they also criticized slave owners of using black women as concubines and taking sexual advantage of them.[SUP][9][/SUP]
The Republican Party wanted to achieve the gradual extinction of slavery by market forces, for its members believed that free labor was superior to slave labor. Southern leaders said the Republican policy of blocking the expansion of slavery into the West made them second-class citizens, and challenged their autonomy. With the 1860 presidential victory of Abraham Lincoln, seven Deep South states whose economy was based on cotton and slavery decided to secede and form a new nation. The American Civil War broke out in April 1861 with the firing on Fort Sumter in South Carolina. When Lincoln called for troops to suppress the rebellion, four more slave states seceded. In 1863, Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation

What is your point? He kept his own slaves while trying to deny others theirs. So what? If you want to respect him, be my guest. I just don't.
 

Gib

Crusader
Frederick Douglass is Frederick Douglass. What docs do I need??

All I am saying is the clip you provided showed no real docs,

so why would a viewer of the clip believe the clip?

Just because it's a clip?

We need Crime Scene Investigation of some of these clips?
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
What I am seeing is justification for slavery - everybody else did it - all the plantation owners did it - etc. It was okay for Jefferson because.... No. Some people might have been la-di-dah fiddle dee dee I just grew up with it people but he KNEW by his own admission it was EVIL and he still kept doing it. He could have led by example. He could have freed his slaves. He could have freed his children. He had the power to set people free, no matter how few, and he didn't lift a finger.

He was no Oskar Schindler.

And I have studied four units of US history with an A grade result, making it onto the Dean's List.

Not everybody sees the same set of facts in the same light. Some people see a hypocrite and call them a hypocrite, especially descendants of the less independent.

I never stated that. lololololololoolololol. I never said slavery was okay nor have I seen any post saying so. The strawmans continue to cometh. The point you're making about freeing his slaves at that time was there was no safe place for them to go. You don't get that, there was no safe place for them to go. They would have been caught, beaten, maybe returned or sold as runaways. That doesn't make any of the circumstances right, it's just the way it was. Jefferson did lobby strenuously for the institution of slavery to end.

Histrionics & strawmen don't make for historical facts no matter how much your Dean's list says so.

If you understood U.S. history and the context of the times therein (political, social, slavery, gender, patriarchal) then you might just avoid such comments as "I understand that you still feel the need to justify slavery" which is just silly.

Are you a hypocrite because you were once a $cientologist and now speak out on ESMB? Apply that to times of slavery and what Thomas Jefferson was trying to do, mostly alone. Could you sink $cientology all by your lonesome?
 

JustSheila

Crusader
4 units is good, but isn't anything to brag about. Americans study it a minimum of ten years and most keep going. You're green but that's okay, you just don't have the whole picture so tell us things we learned in 3rd grade. Its a good start for you, but its a bit like hearing a new scn explain the KRC triangle.

World History and Geography are more than a bit lacking in American education though. :blush:

Thomas Jefferson also:
Purchased the Louisiana Territory from France (1803) for $15 million and doubled the size of the United States
Advocated states' rights over national institutions in stark difference to his predecessor John Adams
Drastically cut federal government spending and reduced the national debt by more than 25 percent

http://us-presidents.findthebest.com/q/8/9699/What-were-President-Thomas-Jefferson-s-accomplishments
 
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Leland

Crusader
I never followed it, but there have been all kinds of TV documentaries about TJ over the years and those black Americans that have can claim him in their family tree.

He fathered quite a few children via his slaves. :eyeroll:

But agree with JustSheila, that is the way it was at that time.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
I never stated that. lololololololoolololol. I never said slavery was okay nor have I seen any post saying so. The strawmans continue to cometh. The point you're making about freeing his slaves at that time was there was no safe place for them to go. You don't get that, there was no safe place for them to go. They would have been caught, beaten, maybe returned or sold as runaways. That doesn't make any of the circumstances right, it's just the way it was. Jefferson did lobby strenuously for the institution of slavery to end.

Histrionics & strawmen don't make for historical facts no matter how much your Dean's list says so.

Wrong. There were certainly free blacks living in the North and the South. And could they have not stayed working for him, or, um, living with him since they WERE his children, if they CHOSE? But they never had that choice, did they?

Nice patriarchal argument, though - it was for their own good. Yeah, right.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
4 units is good, but isn't anything to brag about. Americans study it a minimum of ten years and most keep going. You're green but that's okay, you just don't have the whole picture so tell us things we learned in 3rd grade. Its a good start for you though.

World History and Geography are more than a bit lacking in American education though. :blush:

Thomas Jefferson also:
Purchased the Louisiana Territory from France (1803) for $15 million and doubled the size of the United States
Advocated states' rights over national institutions in stark difference to his predecessor John Adams
Drastically cut federal government spending and reduced the national debt by more than 25 percent

http://us-presidents.findthebest.com/q/8/9699/What-were-President-Thomas-Jefferson-s-accomplishments

As I said, if you want to respect him, feel free. If you want to insult me, which you obviously do, feel free. Any one of his little "faults" if done by a Scientologist would have you calling for an arrest. I don't respect him at all.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
I never stated that. lololololololoolololol. I never said slavery was okay nor have I seen any post saying so. The strawmans continue to cometh. The point you're making about freeing his slaves at that time was there was no safe place for them to go. You don't get that, there was no safe place for them to go. They would have been caught, beaten, maybe returned or sold as runaways. That doesn't make any of the circumstances right, it's just the way it was. Jefferson did lobby strenuously for the institution of slavery to end.

Histrionics & strawmen don't make for historical facts no matter how much your Dean's list says so.

Loaded terminology like "histrionics" doesn't make for facts either, no matter how much your spin says so.
 

freethinker

Sponsor
I would bet there are a lot of people who have no idea what happened to the men who signed the Declaration of Independence.

Here is an account.

http://www.constitution.org/bio/fate_of_signers.htm

[SIZE=+2] Fate of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence[/SIZE]
The following is often published and cited concerning the fate of the Signers, but its accuracy is doubtful, and should only be taken as "traditional" rather than historical. See the end for links to other sources on the subject.

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?
Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.
Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured.
Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War.
They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind of men were they?
Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.
Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.
Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.
Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.
At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.
Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.
John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.
Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."
They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight just the British.
We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government!
Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't. So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid. Remember: freedom is never free!
I hope you will show your support by please sending this to as many people as you can. It's time we get the word out that patriotism is NOT a sin, and the Fourth of July has more to it than beer, picnics, and baseball games.
 

JustSheila

Crusader
Its all good, Purple, just weird that you want to change your country alliance and become an American when you have so little good to say about it or its Founding Fathers on this, America's own anniversary.

Very odd indeed.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
Wrong. There were certainly free blacks living in the North and the South. And could they have not stayed working for him, or, um, living with him since they WERE his children, if they CHOSE? But they never had that choice, did they?

Nice patriarchal argument, though - it was for their own good. Yeah, right.

Yes, a very small minority, a very small minority and not the norm by any means. And where were they to go? Those slaves had no rights if someone decided to round them up and do with them as the would, they were considered property with no say in the matter.

By your ill informed historical logic, you are a hypocrite for not stopping $cientology single handedly. There are children in the cult, people held against their will, no "context of the times" stopping you. So save everyone a lot grief and pain and end the cult right now to prove your point. You can be the Great Cult Emancipator. Happy 4th of July.
 

shanic89

Patron Meritorious
Its all good, Purple, just weird that you want to change your country alliance and become an American when you have so little good to say about it or its Founding Fathers on this, America's own anniversary.

Very odd indeed.

It seems to me here it is again. A person does not particularly agree with the reverence given to one man, yet they are accused of having little good to say about the Founding fathers, with a tug at the patriotic heart strings just to push it home. This your against us/America if you're not supporting what I'm saying is very strange and I must admit a wee bit frightening.
 

Free Being Me

Crusader
I would bet there are a lot of people who have no idea what happened to the men who signed the Declaration of Independence.

Here is an account.

http://www.constitution.org/bio/fate_of_signers.htm

[SIZE=+2] Fate of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence[/SIZE]
The following is often published and cited concerning the fate of the Signers, but its accuracy is doubtful, and should only be taken as "traditional" rather than historical. See the end for links to other sources on the subject.

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?
Five signers were captured by the British as traitors, and tortured before they died.
Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned. Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army; another had two sons captured.
Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or hardships of the Revolutionary War.
They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor. What kind of men were they?
Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists. Eleven were merchants, nine were farmers and large plantation owners; men of means, well educated. But they signed the Declaration of Independence knowing full well that the penalty would be death if they were captured.
Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the British Navy. He sold his home and properties to pay his debts, and died in rags.
Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British that he was forced to move his family almost constantly. He served in the Congress without pay, and his family was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him, and poverty was his reward.
Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer, Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.
At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed, and Nelson died bankrupt.
Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed. The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.
John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying. Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his children vanished. A few weeks later he died from exhaustion and a broken heart.
Norris and Livingston suffered similar fates. Such were the stories and sacrifices of the American Revolution. These were not wild-eyed, rabble-rousing ruffians. They were soft-spoken men of means and education. They had security, but they valued liberty more. Standing tall, straight, and unwavering, they pledged: "For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."
They gave you and me a free and independent America. The history books never told you a lot about what happened in the Revolutionary War. We didn't fight just the British.
We were British subjects at that time and we fought our own government!
Some of us take these liberties so much for granted, but we shouldn't. So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid. Remember: freedom is never free!
I hope you will show your support by please sending this to as many people as you can. It's time we get the word out that patriotism is NOT a sin, and the Fourth of July has more to it than beer, picnics, and baseball games.

Patrick Henry
Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death
March 23, 1775.​

"No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The question before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
 
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