PRACTICE DEBATE: Grilling Co$ PR / OSAbot

[Lesolee (Sith Lord)]

I think some ESMBers have mis-estimated how hard it is to successfully defeat an OSA/Co$ PR person in public argument. (To be fair, I have never tried.)

So here is the challenge. You ask the question to the PR person and I will play Co$ PR (others can join in as OSA as well; I don’t want to keep all the fun for myself )

The Rules: You have to tell the truth. You can ask one question and have one further question about my answer (which I will answer) before we have to move on to another question.

The scenario is live phone-in on the radio. There are plenty of callers, hence the two question limit.

I think I will “win” because I am going to use my Dark Sith Powers

Go on, I dare you,
I double dare you MF.

 

[SpectrumV]

Hi.
Long time caller, first time listener.

I have met quite a few OT's. None of them ever did anything that would make me think they were better than the rest of humanity.

None ever read my mind while I was thinking things that would offend them.
I've never seen any great, super human feats done.
Many were quite the opposite of the greatness that OT is supposed to be.
None were super smart.
Some weren't emotionally stable
Some were not so ethical and treated others poorly.
Some owed people money and had no intent to repay.

My question is:
What makes an OT so special?

Thanks. I'll take my answer of the air.

 

[Smurf]

I think some ESMBers have mis-estimated how hard it is to successfully defeat an OSA/Co$ PR person in public argument. (To be fair, I have never tried.)

Whether one "successfully defeats" an OSA bot is up to interpretation. Tory & I have often challenged OSAbots & called them out on their lies & their usual response is to hem & haw, go silent or walk away out of discomfort.

It's not difficult to "defeat" an OSAbot if you know what you're talking about (you're drawing from facts).

 

[I told you I was trouble]

If scientology is so great ... how come so many policies and procedures had to be invented (ie RPF, disconnection, lower conditions, endless sec checking) to entrap and fully control those considering leaving?

 

[Lesolee (Sith Lord)]

Hi.
Long time caller, first time listener.

I have met quite a few OT's. None of them ever did anything that would make me think they were better than the rest of humanity.

None ever read my mind while I was thinking things that would offend them.
I've never seen any great, super human feats done.
Many were quite the opposite of the greatness that OT is supposed to be.
None were super smart.
Some weren't emotionally stable
Some were not so ethical and treated others poorly.
Some owed people money and had no intent to repay.

My question is:
What makes an OT so special?

Thanks. I'll take my answer of the air.

Oh dear, you seem to be mixing with some bad sorts there, and you seem to have some bad experiences. We clearly state when somebody signs up for services that they are not going to get any "super human" powers. We don't claim to make "super heroes".

We are a religion and we are trying to make people more spiritually aware. Some people start off in a very poor state spiritually and they take a lot more work to make them into decent members of society. You seem to have encountered more than your fair share of those!

Occassionally we make mistakes and the technology is so powerful it can temporarily cause upsets. We try to make sure that these upsets are handled as soon as possible.

What we do is take somebody from wherever they happen to be and make them better. On the way up they may not be better than you or anyone else, but they are better relative to how they were when they started. I know a lot of OTs who are very special people. They are community leaders and captains of industry. They are also very private people who keep their religious views to themselves.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Lesolee (Sith Lord)]

If scientology is so great ... how come so many policies and procedures had to be invented (ie RPF, disconnection, lower conditions, endless sec checking) to entrap and fully control those considering leaving?

Well there are a lot of technical things you have put in your question that the listeners probably won't understand. Let me answer the general point about preventing people from leaving. Of course we don't stop anybody from leaving if they want to, but we do have to make sure it is their decision and they are not being unduly influenced. We have found overly controlling parents who claim to know what is best for their children. These "children" are in some cases actually adults aged 25 or more! Sometimes these overly coersive parents have to be restrained, much as you might need to put a restraining order on an abusive ex-boyfriend. This is a last resort when all else fails.

Back to the point about leaving, there is a routing form which we follow to make sure all the necessary steps are taken and in the correct order. This doesn't have to take a long time. We are dealing with very powerful technology, which if mis-handled can leave somebody very bitter about Scientology. There are several very vicious critics out there, and I know for sure that if they had been routed out correctly they would not feel the way they do. I can't get into the technical details as we don't have the time, but even something as minor as "borrowing" photocopier paper from the Church can lead to the person being antagonistic towards the church. The only way to lessen the crime is to lessen the status of the thing you harmed. You may have experieneced this yourself where somebody did something harmful to you then tried to make less of their harm by saying how bad you were. It's the same things with critics.

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Infinite]

'

What, exactly, is a Body Thetan?

 

[Lesolee (Sith Lord)]

'

What, exactly, is a Body Thetan?

In Scientology we believe, along with most major religions, that a person has a body but is not just a body. Some religions, for example Christian denominations, talk about a "soul". They are always a bit vague about what a soul is, and they say a soul is something you have, like a possession. And people talk about "selling their souls to the devil". There is another term "Atman" used in Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism. Again this is very confusing because each has their own idea of what Atman means.

So we use a new term Thetan. And we mean something different to all these other definitions, but there are also similarities. A thetan and a soul are spiritual things, not something you can measure, or put in a test tube, or poke with a stick. Scientists don't seem to understand religions very well so they are very poor people to discuss religious matter with!

A thetan is YOU, your spiritual essence if you like. Immortal, undying, for ever and ever. A Thetan is not something you have; it is what you are. But the relationship between bodies and thetans is quite a technical matter, and I am not a technical expert.

I hope I have given you a glimpse of what the subject is all about in the brief time available.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

Posted by Lesolee (Sith Lord).


Well there are a lot of technical things you have put in your question that the listeners probably won't understand. Let me answer the general point about preventing people from leaving. Of course we don't stop anybody from leaving if they want to, but we do have to make sure it is their decision and they are not being unduly influenced. We have found overly controlling parents who claim to know what is best for their children. These "children" are in some cases actually adults aged 25 or more! Sometimes these overly coersive parents have to be restrained, much as you might need to put a restraining order on an abusive ex-boyfriend. This is a last resort when all else fails.

Back to the point about leaving, there is a routing form which we follow to make sure all the necessary steps are taken and in the correct order. This doesn't have to take a long time. We are dealing with very powerful technology, which if mis-handled can leave somebody very bitter about Scientology. There are several very vicious critics out there, and I know for sure that if they had been routed out correctly they would not feel the way they do. I can't get into the technical details as we don't have the time, but even something as minor as "borrowing" photocopier paper from the Church can lead to the person being antagonistic towards the church. The only way to lessen the crime is to lessen the status of the thing you harmed. You may have experieneced this yourself where somebody did something harmful to you then tried to make less of their harm by saying how bad you were. It's the same things with critics.

I hope that answers your question.

Due to the 'brief time available' let me just quickly say this, I like your style but you've made what I thought was a slightly odd religion sound like a crazy, controlling cult!

I'm completely stunned, I had no idea.

I shall now make an effort to ruin this cult completely and thank you for assisting me see the truth so clearly.

 

[prosecco]

Why can't Scientology be scrutinised under scientific conditions to determine its workability? What's the problem with independent verification?

 

[anonomog]

I always wondered why Einstein wasn't a Scientologist, I mean there is no way he could have thought of all that without tech.
And while I am on the air, did LRH ever stop beating his wife/ wives? How many did he have again?

 

[strativarius]

'

What, exactly, is a Body Thetan?

Body Thetans are degraded beings who have passed through the Between Lives Area after dropping their previous bodies, but because they have committed so many overt acts of harm in their former lifetimes, they are too caved in and confused to confront picking up any new bodies. These Body Thetans consist of a sordid lot of political despots, criminals, drug addicts, and of course heading the list are psychiatrists, psychologists, psychotherapists and hypnotists.

PS: Apologies to Steve Fishman.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

...

He didn't answer that question ... he answered an easier (unasked) one instead (what is a thetan?).

 

[strativarius]

He didn't answer that question ... he answered an easier (unasked) one instead (what is a thetan?).

AAMOF I thought I was in the 'Scientology NOTs auditing can be harmful because BTs become...' thread. Unfortunately, nobody has asked that question there, so my brilliant answer was completely wasted.

 

[Dulloldfart]

ASMOF <snip>

Saac?

Paul

 

[strativarius]

Saac?

Paul

qwerty?
SAAC (Specialty Advertising Association of California) was formed in 1953 and is a non-profit trade organization in the multi-billion dollar promotional products ...

 

[Dulloldfart]

qwerty?
SAAC (Specialty Advertising Association of California) was formed in 1953 and is a non-profit trade organization in the multi-billion dollar promotional products ...

Saac Asmof, the famous Scence Fcton author.

(Sorry for the deral, Sth Lord)

Paul

 

[Lesolee (Sith Lord)]

Why can't Scientology be scrutinised under scientific conditions to determine its workability? What's the problem with independent verification?

That's an excellent question. Scientists can be very bigoted people. You will hear scientists saying that something didn't happen because it goes against every Law of Science. That is of course complete rubbish, but they say these things nevertheless. If a Catholic goes to Confession and says they feel better afterwards, how is a Scientist going to measure that? They can't.

Some of them, but not all, just dismiss religion as myths and folk stories for the ignorant. So how would such a "Scientist" measure spiritual progress. They wouldn't. They would just go through the motions to prove themselves right. There is no way second-hand testimony will tell you if spiritual gain is "real". You have to try it and experience it for yourself.

Some people are so frightened of being found out that they shut out other people's attempts to regain spiritual awareness.

I remember a TV presentation of Jesus stopping a stoning. It was the one “let he is without sin cast the first stone”. And as the people picked up the stones Jesus looked at each of them in turn and recognised their sins. So he looked at one, “adulterer”, and the guy dropped the stone. And another “thief” and he dropped his stone and so forth.

People understand religion and scientists often do not.

 

[I told you I was trouble]

That's an excellent question. Scientists can be very bigoted people. You will hear scientists saying that something didn't happen because it goes against every Law of Science. That is of course complete rubbish, but they say these things nevertheless. If a Catholic goes to Confession and says they feel better afterwards, how is a Scientist going to measure that? They can't.

Some of them, but not all, just dismiss religion as myths and folk stories for the ignorant. So how would such a "Scientist" measure spiritual progress. They wouldn't. They would just go through the motions to prove themselves right. There is no way second-hand testimony will tell you if spiritual gain is "real". You have to try it and experience it for yourself.

Some people are so frightened of being found out that they shut out other people's attempts to regain spiritual awareness.

I remember a TV presentation of Jesus stopping a stoning. It was the one “let he is without sin cast the first stone”. And as the people picked up the stones Jesus looked at each of them in turn and recognised their sins. So he looked at one, “adulterer”, and the guy dropped the stone. And another “thief” and he dropped his stone and so forth.

People understand religion and scientists often do not.

I'm a people (lol) but I don't understand why scientology is heavily marketed using standard business tools and PR and charges large amounts of very real money but reverts to using the simplistic "spiritual" card (as you just did) when people ask legitimate businesslike questions?

 

[Lesolee (Sith Lord)]

I always wondered why Einstein wasn't a Scientologist, I mean there is no way he could have thought of all that without tech.
And while I am on the air, did LRH ever stop beating his wife/ wives? How many did he have again?

Oh well, I am not a Physicist, but even I know that the Special Theory of Relativity was published in 1905. And the General Theory of Relativity was published around 1916 if I recall correctly. Ron didn't publish the first major book on Dianetics until 1950. There was a slightly earlier book than Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, but that is not as well known. If you are interested it is called Dianetics: The Original Thesis.

After lots of actual auditing with Dianetics, Ron realised there was a lot more aberative material present in a person than had been appreciated in the first book. In fact people didn't get better until the area of Past Lives was entered. At first they all thought it was imaginary stuff, but they stuck to their guns and ran it anyway --- and it proved to be successful. That was how Scientology came into existence. It was by actual practice, not something just dreamed up --- as apparently some people think.

Albert Einstein died in 1955, so by the time Scientology was first widely available Dr Einstein was no longer a young and fit man. I am sure he would have loved to discover Scientology and explore the Universe in a completely new way.