The Little Thread Which Grew - the Apollo '73 to Everything But

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Hey Lakey, here's a piece of data you may not be aware of, it's a post I made elsewhere here on ESMB, here it is:

http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...k)-in-your-org&p=996266&viewfull=1#post996266

Click on the image to read what Hubbard said about pysch's.

What's your take on that, I'm just asking and not to argue or anything, just your opinion.

Gib, I have trouble deciiphering your writing style so I'm not sure what your point was. Here is my opinion which you asked for about what Hubbard thought of psychiatrists.

I believe that Hubbard thought he really had something quite powerful in Dianetics and back in the late 40's Hubbard had no beef with psychiatry in general, although he was definitely not happy with pre-frontal lobotomies and operations of that nature. Prior to deciding to write DMSMH, he had published his "Original Thesis" on Dianetics and some fairly intellectual people such as Dr. Winter and John Campbell the sci fi pulp publisher thought that LRH was onto something big.

LRH wanted more than anything else to smash his name into the history books and live forever in history as a benevolent scientific genius so he graciously presented Dianetics to a group of leading psychiatrists. He expected that they would be extremely interested and would accept his gift of Dianetics, study the subject with him and then start using it in their practices while at the same time crediting LRH as the source of this brand new mental breakthrough. The psychiatrists would also officially label Dianetics as a Science of the Mind so that Hubbard could achieve his ultimate goal as stated above.

To his dismay, none of the leading psychiatrists of the day wanted anything to do with Dianetics. What is more, they did not consider it scientific and did not really take it seriously. They turned LRH down cold turkey and went about their business as if LRH did not exist.

LRH, for his part, was extremely disappointed in the outcome of this offer of his to the psychiatric community. In retaliation, he decided to launch a massive vendetta against psychiatry. This vendetta became a major platform of his movement and one of the main causes of his life. COS, under DM, is still pursuing this vendetta!

I think that was all there was to it. The psychiatric community turned down Hubbard's offer to turn Dianetics over to them and they also went after Hubbard's Dianetics and its groups flat out and tried to shut down Hubbard's new movement. Hubbard retaliated by trying to take them down and prevail over them. That's really all there is to this issue. Hubbard did not really think that Psychiatry was the huge demon that he painted it to be, he only mocked up that facade in his attempt to get even with Psychiatry.

Hubbard was only one man with a small fledgling movement and limited funding. Organized psychiatry probably figured that they would steam roller Hubbard and his movement easily and quickly. Hubbard, however, was a very powerful personality and he mustered considerable resources and he fought the Psychiatry profession continually since around 1948. I, for one, can't help but admire Hubbard for making a stand against them. I don't believe for a minute that psychiatry was ever as bad as the picture Hubbard painted of it Even so, he fought them for decades and it was not a one sided fight. The huge Psychiatric juggernaught, funded by governments around the world, world banking and International Medical Associations attempted to steam roller a small time pulp fiction writer with a small fledgling movement of only a few thousand people. The fact that Hubbard could hang in there for many decades dishing out as much bad PR and destruction to them as he received from them states a lot about how much power Hubbard could exert when he set his mind to it.

You can hate Hubbard for all the hurt he gave to many people who followed him or love him for major help you think you received from him but the fact that Hubbard went toe to toe against Psychiatry for nearly 40 years and was able to inflict damage on them while DM has carried on the battle for another 30 years, is something that has to be admired, even if you aren't particularly fond of Hubbard. This one guy, who was just a pulp fiction author with virtually no funds was able to wage war against organized Psychiatry and hold his ground and not buckle and that is truly an amazing feat. It shows that things deemed impossible may actually be possible. It shows than one individual can cause a difference in this world and it is something that Hubbard achieved which has to generate feelings of admiration, even if one doesn't like Hubbard!!!
Lakey

 

[Free Being Me]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gib, I have trouble deciiphering your writing style so I'm not sure what your point was. Here is my opinion which you asked for about what Hubbard thought of psychiatrists. I believe that Hubbard thought he really had something quite powerful with his book one Dianetics and back in the late 40's Hubbard had no beef with psychiatry in general, although he was definitely not happy with pre frontal lobotomies and operation of that nature. Prior to deciding to write DMSMH, he had published his Original Thesis on Dianetics and some fairly intellectual people such as Dr. Winter and John Campbell the sci fi pulp publisher and several others thought that LRH was on to something big.

LRH wanted more than anything else to smash his name into the history books and live forever as a benevolent genius so he graciously presented Dianetics to a group of leading psychiatrists. He expected that they would be extremely interested and would accept his gift of Dianetics and take classes from him to learn it and how to use it and then start using it in their practices and at the same time credit LRH as the source of this brand new mental breakthrough. The psychiatrists would also label Dianetics as a Science of the Mind so that Hubbard could achieve his goal of being accepted by the public as a great scientists.

To his dismay, the none of the leading psychiatrists of the day wanted anything to do with Dianetics. What is more, they did not consider it scientific and did not really take it seriously. The turned LRH down cold turkey and went about their business as if LRH did not exist.

LRH, for his part, was extremely disappointed in the outcome of this offer of his to the psychiatric community. In retaliation, he decided to launch a massive vendetta against psychiatry. This vendetta became a guy platform of his movement and one of the main causes of his life. It was not all that different from Hitler's hate for the Jewish people and the resultant effort to eliminate Jewish people from the Earth. Hating psychiatry and psychiatrists became a major platform in Hubbard's life and it is still being carried on today in COS by DM.

I think that was all there was too it. The psychiatric community turned down Hubbard's offer to turn Dianetics to them and they also went after Hubbard's Dianetics and its groups full out and tried to shut all of Hubbard's new movement down. Hubbard retaliated by trying to take them down and prevail over them. That's really all there is to this. Hubbard did not really think that Psychiatry was the huge demon that he painted it to be, he only mocked up that facade in his attempt to get rid of Psychiatry.

Hubbard was only one man with a small fledgling movement and limited funding. Probably, organized psychiatry figure that they would steam roller Hubbard and his movement easily and quickly. Hubbard, however, was a very powerful personality and he mustered considerable resources and his fought the Psychiatry profession continutously since around 1948. I for one can't help but admire Hubbard for making a stand against them. I don't believe for a minute that psychiatry was ever as bad as the picture Hubbard painted of it Even so, he fought them for decades and it was not a one sided fight. The huge Psychiatric juggernaught, funded by governments around the world, world banking and International Medical Associations attempted to steam roller a small time pulp fiction writer with a small fledgling movement of only a few thousand people. The fact that Hubbard could hang in there for many decades dishing out as much bad PR and destruction to them as he received from them states a lot about how much power Hubbard could exert in this world when he set his mind to it.

You can hate Hubbard for all the hurt he gave to many people who followed him or love him for major help you received from him but the fact that Hubbard went toe to toe against Psychiatry form nearly 40 years and was able to inflict damage on his opponent while his successor has carried on this same fight for another 30 years is something that has to be admired, even if you aren't particularly fond of Hubbard. This one guy, who was just a pulp fiction author with virtually no funds was able to wage war against organized Psychiatry and hold his ground and not buckle and that is truly an amazing feat. It shows that a lot of things deemed impossible are actually possible. It shows than one individual can cause changes and it is something that Hubbard achieved which has to generate feelings of admiration, even if you don't like Hubbard!!!
Lakey

Do you and Bird share the same writer from CCHR putting out this ridiculous propaganda? The Mental Health community could have cared less about Elcon's "Dianetics" and still do besides the psychologists and psychiatrists who study sociopathic cult leaders, cults and cult exit counseling. The "war on psychiatry" and the "psyches have been waging war on us for eons" wholetrack garbage is Elcon's cultist scapegoating used to instill fear in his followers and cover up for his failed Dianetic Centers.

The only people Elcon managed to "inflict damage on" were his own family, his followers through psychological cultist abuse (that DM is continuing) and whistleblowers trying to warn the public about Elcon and $cientology such as Paulette Cooper for example.

And pardon me if I retch while you "flow admiration" to "Source."

 

[programmer_guy]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gib, I have trouble deciiphering your writing style so I'm not sure what your point was. Here is my opinion which you asked for about what Hubbard thought of psychiatrists.

I believe that Hubbard thought he really had something quite powerful in Dianetics and back in the late 40's Hubbard had no beef with psychiatry in general, although he was definitely not happy with pre-frontal lobotomies and operations of that nature. Prior to deciding to write DMSMH, he had published his "Original Thesis" on Dianetics and some fairly intellectual people such as Dr. Winter and John Campbell the sci fi pulp publisher thought that LRH was on to something big.

LRH wanted more than anything else to smash his name into the history books and live forever in history as a benevolent scientific genius so he graciously presented Dianetics to a group of leading psychiatrists. He expected that they would be extremely interested and would accept his gift of Dianetics, study the subject with him and then start using it in their practices while at the same time crediting LRH as the source of this brand new mental breakthrough. The psychiatrists would also officially label Dianetics as a Science of the Mind so that Hubbard could achieve his ultimate goal as stated above.

To his dismay, none of the leading psychiatrists of the day wanted anything to do with Dianetics. What is more, they did not consider it scientific and did not really take it seriously. They turned LRH down cold turkey and went about their business as if LRH did not exist.

LRH, for his part, was extremely disappointed in the outcome of this offer of his to the psychiatric community. In retaliation, he decided to launch a massive vendetta against psychiatry. This vendetta became a major platform of his movement and one of the main causes of his life. COS, under DM, is still pursuing this vendetta!

I think that was all there was too it. The psychiatric community turned down Hubbard's offer to turn Dianetics over to them and they also went after Hubbard's Dianetics and its groups flat out and tried to shut down Hubbard's new movement. Hubbard retaliated by trying to take them down and prevail over them. That's really all there is to this issue. Hubbard did not really think that Psychiatry was the huge demon that he painted it to be, he only mocked up that facade in his attempt to get even with Psychiatry.

Hubbard was only one man with a small fledgling movement and limited funding. Organized psychiatry probably figured that they would steam roller Hubbard and his movement easily and quickly. Hubbard, however, was a very powerful personality and he mustered considerable resources and he fought the Psychiatry profession continually since around 1948. I, for one, can't help but admire Hubbard for making a stand against them. I don't believe for a minute that psychiatry was ever as bad as the picture Hubbard painted of it Even so, he fought them for decades and it was not a one sided fight. The huge Psychiatric juggernaught, funded by governments around the world, world banking and International Medical Associations attempted to steam roller a small time pulp fiction writer with a small fledgling movement of only a few thousand people. The fact that Hubbard could hang in there for many decades dishing out as much bad PR and destruction to them as he received from them states a lot about how much power Hubbard could exert when he set his mind to it.

You can hate Hubbard for all the hurt he gave to many people who followed him or love him for major help you think you received from him but the fact that Hubbard went toe to toe against Psychiatry for nearly 40 years and was able to inflict damage on them while DM has carried on the battle for another 30 years, is something that has to be admired, even if you aren't particularly fond of Hubbard. This one guy, who was just a pulp fiction author with virtually no funds was aHble to wage war against organized Psychiatry and hold his ground and not buckle and that is truly an amazing feat. It shows that tke hings deemed impossible may actually be possible. It shows than one individual can cause a difference in this world and it is something that Hubbard achieved which has to generate feelings of admiration, even if one doesn't like Hubbard!!!
Lakey

I am very surprised that you said that.

LRH had a huge narcissistic personality.
LRH did major damage on family relationships for those that were in his cult.
LRH had his 3rd wife set up to take the hit for criminal IRS infiltration.
LRH wrote "Scientology: 8-8008" to explain the schizophrenic (OT) phenomena that sometimes occured from extensive auditing.

Need I go on?

 

[Free Being Me]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Have no worries Lakey. I saw your disagree, I've said my piece and I'm moving on. This thread isn't for me and I really don't belong on it so you and the posters who pass by enjoy yourselves.

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I am very surprised that you said that.

LRH had a huge narcissistic personality.
LRH did major damage on family relationships for those that were in his cult.
LRH had his 3rd wife set up to take the hit for criminal IRS infiltration.
LRH wrote "Scientology: 8-8008" to explain the schizophrenic (OT) phenomena that sometimes occured from extensive auditing.

Need I go on?

I agree with all the points you make and readily acknowledge all the unethical and evil activities which Hubbard created and implemented in his groups. That being said, none of what you said has any effect on what I wrote about Hubbard.

Gib asked for my opinion about why Hubbard went after psychiatry. I gave him what he asked for. To me, Hubbard was neutral on psychiatry but psychiatry swayed public opinion in the area of mental health. Hubbard had a compulsion to want to be admired and therefore courted psychiatry, offering to give his work to them, in an effort to gain their endorsement. They rejected Hubbard and his work so he decided to get even with them by attacking and discrediting them. That's my response to GIb.

LINEAR THINKING ON ESMB?
I've noticed repeatedly that most posters on ESMB have the mindset that SOMETHING IS EITHER ALL GOOD OR IT IS ALL EVIL. Many feel that Hubbard and Dianetics and Scientology were all evil; however about 1/3 of the posters on ESMB feel that there was some validity in a portion of Hubbard's work. This latter group has morphed into the Free Zone and Independent Field and are quite active delivering Hubbard type tech out in the public as a means to earn their living.

Almost nothing is all good or all evil! The world just doesn't seem to work that way. To me Hubbard and his technologies have the seeds of evil in them. No matter how much a person accepts Hubbard's theories and how much he or she sacrifices to work and promote Hubbard, they will always end up in the trash heap at the end of their life. A problem arises because before any new organization can get off the ground and get started, they have to offer something which appears to be good to pique the public's interest. It is in dissecting the good in the subject where disagreements amongst ESMB members begin to develop.

A key question might be, what percentage of Hubbard's work is pure evil and what percentage is helpful and workable? The evil portion cannot be 100% or the subject would never have gotten off the ground.

Take a group such as Isis which goes around beheading innocent people. It might appear to we Westerners to be pure evil but to many people on Earth ISIS represents a rebellion against Western Society where a few fat cats control the economies and reap vast wealth from the labors of the common man. The truth is that ISIS is able to recruit young fighters for its cause inside the European Union and the USA. Some people think that Western society is the great Satan and ISIS is a noble underdog who needs their help. Every rebellious group preaches a doctrine and in every one of these doctrines, there are always some elements of truth, no matter how evil the actions of the group are.

The "all is Evil" point of view prevalent in at least half of ESMB members doesn't take well to the mention of ANYTHING positive about Hubbard or DIanetics or Scientology. To me, this is unfortunate and is a failing, in general, of a large percentage of ESMB members. Sure, they are entitled to believe that Hubbard and his subjects are pure evil with no redeeming qualities. There is nothing wrong in them believing that. The problem arises when they encounter someone who does not think exactly as they do and when that happens, they feel compelled to enforce their point of view on their opponent. That to me is very unfortunate and it kind of boxes in ESMB to be a rubber stamp always totally against Hubbard and his creations.

To me, the beauty and power in ESMB is in understanding Hubbard and his movement in it's entirety. That DOES mean condemning the evil and fraudulent portions of his movement but it also means being able to objectively give credit to anything in the movement which was helpful or workable. If a person sincerely believes that NOTHING was helpful or workable, that is a valid belief but that person should be content in presenting his views and shouldn't go out of his way to destroy someone else with a different belief.
Lakey

 

[purple haze]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Not true. Elcon et al had nothing to with "reforming psychiatry." The context of times is an evil cult was evil in 1953 just as it is today. The ole psychiatry is evil schtick is lame Elcon $cio cult scapegoating and indoctrination. Seriously, who writes your pro-cult press releases. Monique Yingling? lol.

Given facts, one could deduce that the effect of emptying the mental hospitals' patients for the most part in the seventies, resulting in an extremely high percentage of homeless with mental health issues left to fare for themselves in our streets nearly forty years later, was the result of our evil overloard LRH covertly underming the entire psychaitric system.

As a Master of Social Work, and a hard earned degree it was in 2002, I think it behooves us to take a look at the big picture and take our heads out of our arses, cease the raging rants blaming the L Con King and pitting us Scn survivors against each other, sit down and have a real discussion.

I understand it's important to blow off steam for most of the victims of the evil cult who have been terribly damaged. I got it.
But to continue feeding Hubbard's insane quest for power and world dominance by constantly blaming him alone as the total source of all the problems within the system, just feed right into Miss Schavege's hand.

My point is, as I wake up this fine Sunday morning, lucky to be alive, there have been some amazing people who have passed thru the cult in the past sixty five years. It is because of all of us and our energies and our dreams, that that monster grew and survived.
We are the ones who contributed the most in its heyday, who can now put it to rest.

Aloha!

 

[Free Being Me]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Given facts, one could deduce that the effect of emptying the mental hospitals' patients for the most part in the seventies, resulting in an extremely high percentage of homeless with mental health issues left to fare for themselves in our streets nearly forty years later, was the result of our evil overloard LRH covertly underming the entire psychaitric system.

As a Master of Social Work, and a hard earned degree it was in 2002, I think it behooves us to take a look at the big picture and take our heads out of our arses, cease the raging rants blaming the L Con King and pitting us Scn survivors against each other, sit down and have a real discussion.

I understand it's important to blow off steam for most of the victims of the evil cult who have been terribly damaged. I got it.
But to continue feeding Hubbard's insane quest for power and world dominance by constantly blaming him alone as the total source of all the problems within the system, just feed right into Miss Schavege's hand.

My point is, as I wake up this fine Sunday morning, lucky to be alive, there have been some amazing people who have passed thru the cult in the past sixty five years. It is because of all of us and our energies and our dreams, that that monster grew and survived.
We are the ones who contributed the most in its heyday, who can now put it to rest.

Aloha!

I can say whatever I wish to regarding Elcon, the cult and the farcical "psyches are evil, Elcon sure showed them" lunacy, especially when I read pure bs wordclowning. I already said I was leaving this thread and here you have to a be snot. I might just hang out here everyday but the cultist cognitive dissonance on this thread doesn't have much going for it so I'll pass and I don't want to go back on my word to Lakey. Ciao.

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Given facts, one could deduce that the effect of emptying the mental hospitals' patients for the most part in the seventies, resulting in an extremely high percentage of homeless with mental health issues left to fare for themselves in our streets nearly forty years later, was the result of our evil overloard LRH covertly underming the entire psychaitric system.

As a Master of Social Work, and a hard earned degree it was in 2002, I think it behooves us to take a look at the big picture and take our heads out of our arses, cease the raging rants blaming the L Con King and pitting us Scn survivors against each other, sit down and have a real discussion.

I understand it's important to blow off steam for most of the victims of the evil cult who have been terribly damaged. I got it.
But to continue feeding Hubbard's insane quest for power and world dominance by constantly blaming him alone as the total source of all the problems within the system, just feed right into Miss Schavege's hand.

My point is, as I wake up this fine Sunday morning, lucky to be alive, there have been some amazing people who have passed thru the cult in the past sixty five years. It is because of all of us and our energies and our dreams, that that monster grew and survived.
We are the ones who contributed the most in its heyday, who can now put it to rest.

Aloha!

i've been among the homeless for more than thirty years PH

for the most part the people here don't like getting labeled with "mental health issues" and do not like psychiatrists, psychiatry or psychiatric facilities. it might be rough here but it beats the livin' peepee out of being tended by the shrinks

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

The best of Robert Fulton's work has a timeless quantity to it also and so does Henry Ford's. That doesn't mean that we still build steam ships to sail the oceans nor do we drive around in Model T's. Ditto for the Wright brothers and especially Thomas Edison. You don't see people still using an Edison style phonograph where you crank it up and put a 78 rpm wax record on it.

All subjects should be allowed to advance with the times. This one subject, created by LRH, is forbidden by its creator from developing any further unless the work is done by him. If Scio was a real religion this might make some sense but Hubbard promoted it very heavily as a science.

Look at COS, about 125,000 active paying members in 1992 and down to about 1/4 that number today. You know, I believe it was Ian Wexler, an old time scientologist who mentioned it to me at a party of Indie people about 6 months ago. He said that when the current generation of old time ex scientologists, such as me and many of those who post on ESMB is gone no standard auditors will any longer be in training on planet Earth. The official COS certainly is not producing standard tech auditors any longer and there is not much training going on out in the Indie field. When the current crop of Indie auditors dies out, there will probably still be a significant demand for auditing out in the field but probably very few younger auditors will be around to satisfy that demand.

Hey, maybe the Indie field can resort to creating Solo auditors, just like what happened when too many Swedes came to the Apollo for auditing on the OT Levels, as Purple Haze covered above. Certainly, the field, in the next generation should be clever enough to train up most of their members to be solo auditors so that they can still audit themselves up the bridge.
Lakey

if miscavage had been working for ford he'd have taken the model A and redesigned it as a model T


most of the ideas i'd have for redesign have to do with admin. and square one is abolish fair game and square two is declare black dianetics and black scientology verboten

the big redesign in tech that i would do would be on Academy Level 0...

my level 0 checksheet would be four or five times the length of the current level 0 and it would have all the material i expected to find there and didn't. over the years i've mostly puzzled out what i needed to know and that's what i would change and the result, by god, is a level 0 auditor who is a by god auditor

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

if miscavage had been working for ford he'd have taken the model A and redesigned it as a model T


most of the ideas i'd have for redesign have to do with admin. and square one is abolish fair game and square two is declare black dianetics and black scientology verboten

the big redesign in tech that i would do would be on Academy Level 0...

my level 0 checksheet would be four or five times the length of the current level 0 and it would have all the material i expected to find there and didn't. over the years i've mostly puzzled out what i needed to know and that's what i would change and the result, by god, is a level 0 auditor who is a by god auditor

Lot's of good suggestions there. Commander.

With me, I would abolish fair game and disconnection first and right after that abolish the policy on forced abortion for S.O. members. Next, I would get rid of the weekly stat push, keeping stats but using them more discretely. There would be a Division for long range planning. The noble sounding credos and statements of human rights would be practiced 100%. Telling lies would be a misdemeanor and continual lying would be a crime.

I like your redo of Academy Level O. That level, concerning communication is really the backbone of any human betterment activity.

This is going to be hard for many to take, but I would get rid of OT3. I really think that whole story is a figment of Hubbard's imagination. The OT Levels should be built around NOTS, as OT IV through VII already are. NOTS should not be confidential material. On NOTS, there should be a choice as to what items a person wants to eliminate from his space.

Staff pay should approximate a living wage out in society. Sea Org pay should also approximate that but because room, board and uniforms are included, a reasonable deduction should be made from S.O. pay to recapture those funds. The internet, cell phones, newpapers, etc. should all be available for staff to read.

Of course, attention would be put solely onto training and processing and not buildings and acquisition of properties. All the various building projects would be funded by the 10% taken off the top of every orgs weekly income.
Lakey

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gib, I have trouble deciiphering your writing style so I'm not sure what your point was. Here is my opinion which you asked for about what Hubbard thought of psychiatrists.

I believe that Hubbard thought he really had something quite powerful in Dianetics and back in the late 40's Hubbard had no beef with psychiatry in general, although he was definitely not happy with pre-frontal lobotomies and operations of that nature. Prior to deciding to write DMSMH, he had published his "Original Thesis" on Dianetics and some fairly intellectual people such as Dr. Winter and John Campbell the sci fi pulp publisher thought that LRH was onto something big.

LRH wanted more than anything else to smash his name into the history books and live forever in history as a benevolent scientific genius so he graciously presented Dianetics to a group of leading psychiatrists. He expected that they would be extremely interested and would accept his gift of Dianetics, study the subject with him and then start using it in their practices while at the same time crediting LRH as the source of this brand new mental breakthrough. The psychiatrists would also officially label Dianetics as a Science of the Mind so that Hubbard could achieve his ultimate goal as stated above.

To his dismay, none of the leading psychiatrists of the day wanted anything to do with Dianetics. What is more, they did not consider it scientific and did not really take it seriously. They turned LRH down cold turkey and went about their business as if LRH did not exist.

LRH, for his part, was extremely disappointed in the outcome of this offer of his to the psychiatric community. In retaliation, he decided to launch a massive vendetta against psychiatry. This vendetta became a major platform of his movement and one of the main causes of his life. COS, under DM, is still pursuing this vendetta!

I think that was all there was to it. The psychiatric community turned down Hubbard's offer to turn Dianetics over to them and they also went after Hubbard's Dianetics and its groups flat out and tried to shut down Hubbard's new movement. Hubbard retaliated by trying to take them down and prevail over them. That's really all there is to this issue. Hubbard did not really think that Psychiatry was the huge demon that he painted it to be, he only mocked up that facade in his attempt to get even with Psychiatry.

Hubbard was only one man with a small fledgling movement and limited funding. Organized psychiatry probably figured that they would steam roller Hubbard and his movement easily and quickly. Hubbard, however, was a very powerful personality and he mustered considerable resources and he fought the Psychiatry profession continually since around 1948. I, for one, can't help but admire Hubbard for making a stand against them. I don't believe for a minute that psychiatry was ever as bad as the picture Hubbard painted of it Even so, he fought them for decades and it was not a one sided fight. The huge Psychiatric juggernaught, funded by governments around the world, world banking and International Medical Associations attempted to steam roller a small time pulp fiction writer with a small fledgling movement of only a few thousand people. The fact that Hubbard could hang in there for many decades dishing out as much bad PR and destruction to them as he received from them states a lot about how much power Hubbard could exert when he set his mind to it.

You can hate Hubbard for all the hurt he gave to many people who followed him or love him for major help you think you received from him but the fact that Hubbard went toe to toe against Psychiatry for nearly 40 years and was able to inflict damage on them while DM has carried on the battle for another 30 years, is something that has to be admired, even if you aren't particularly fond of Hubbard. This one guy, who was just a pulp fiction author with virtually no funds was able to wage war against organized Psychiatry and hold his ground and not buckle and that is truly an amazing feat. It shows that things deemed impossible may actually be possible. It shows than one individual can cause a difference in this world and it is something that Hubbard achieved which has to generate feelings of admiration, even if one doesn't like Hubbard!!!
Lakey

psychiatry doesn't start out with freud, it predates him.

and in 1950 there were multiple horrors beyond lobotomy and ECT. interested persons might check out a book from about 1980 titled "the shoe leather treament"

as to the truly great reforms that have come about, the author who is credited with the single pivotal book is ken kesey with "one flew over the cuckoo's nest" in 1962 and it truly was a powerful and seminal work and a shining example of great literature

but...

much of the nuts and bolts ideas for the reforms come from and are generated out of dianetics

back when i was in and scn and dn were truly a vibrant and vital grassroots movement, when ron held sway over the organzation but not it's people, back when, as in the 50's and 60's the subject could still attract intelligent, able competent people with wide personal horizons it was very active and engaged with psychiatric reform. for years now all the freedom trophys are kept in the house but the year i started it was given to dr. thomas szasz, author of "the myth of mental illness" and a powerful and influential psychiatrist and reformer. that's back when the freedom event had enough public respect to draw the press one of whom asked dr. szasz "don't you think the scientologists go to far in their criticism of psychiatry?" his response was "i don't think they go far enough." then later when i was at fcdc the reformist psychiatrist dr. peter breggin was often to be found in ron's former home at 1827 19th street. in fact i audited his wife on self analysis lists. i was a very green auditor and capable of little beyond rote procedure with excellent TRs and i know i didn't really have that rather lovely young woman properly "in session". she was a trained psychologist herself and i knew as i audited her she was sort of watching the session from the side and watching me. that was one of the moments i often considered thinking how i could have 2WC'd her

but...

yes lakey...

dianeticists and sciencemoligians have had HUGE influence on psychiatric reform

 

[Commander Birdsong]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Lot's of good suggestions there. Commander.

With me, I would abolish fair game and disconnection first and right after that abolish the policy on forced abortion for S.O. members. Next, I would get rid of the weekly stat push, keeping stats but using them more discretely. There would be a Division for long range planning. The noble sounding credos and statements of human rights would be practiced 100%. Telling lies would be a misdemeanor and continual lying would be a crime.

I like your redo of Academy Level O. That level, concerning communication is really the backbone of any human betterment activity.

This is going to be hard for many to take, but I would get rid of OT3. I really think that whole story is a figment of Hubbard's imagination. The OT Levels should be built around NOTS, as OT IV through VII already are. NOTS should not be confidential material. On NOTS, there should be a choice as to what items a person wants to eliminate from his space.

Staff pay should approximate a living wage out in society. Sea Org pay should also approximate that but because room, board and uniforms are included, a reasonable deduction should be made from S.O. pay to recapture those funds. The internet, cell phones, newpapers, etc. should all be available for staff to read.

Of course, attention would be put solely onto training and processing and not buildings and acquisition of properties. All the various building projects would be funded by the 10% taken off the top of every orgs weekly income.
Lakey

one quick note before my computer time runs out...

disconnection is not an absolute evil lakey. our first amendment grants freedom of association which would be meaningless if it did not include freedom of disassociation. but this should be purely a case thing, the daughter who just can't be in contact with her overbearing mother etc.

 

[Gib]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gib, I have trouble deciiphering your writing style so I'm not sure what your point was. Here is my opinion which you asked for about what Hubbard thought of psychiatrists.

I believe that Hubbard thought he really had something quite powerful in Dianetics and back in the late 40's Hubbard had no beef with psychiatry in general, although he was definitely not happy with pre-frontal lobotomies and operations of that nature. Prior to deciding to write DMSMH, he had published his "Original Thesis" on Dianetics and some fairly intellectual people such as Dr. Winter and John Campbell the sci fi pulp publisher thought that LRH was onto something big.

LRH wanted more than anything else to smash his name into the history books and live forever in history as a benevolent scientific genius so he graciously presented Dianetics to a group of leading psychiatrists. He expected that they would be extremely interested and would accept his gift of Dianetics, study the subject with him and then start using it in their practices while at the same time crediting LRH as the source of this brand new mental breakthrough. The psychiatrists would also officially label Dianetics as a Science of the Mind so that Hubbard could achieve his ultimate goal as stated above.

To his dismay, none of the leading psychiatrists of the day wanted anything to do with Dianetics. What is more, they did not consider it scientific and did not really take it seriously. They turned LRH down cold turkey and went about their business as if LRH did not exist.

LRH, for his part, was extremely disappointed in the outcome of this offer of his to the psychiatric community. In retaliation, he decided to launch a massive vendetta against psychiatry. This vendetta became a major platform of his movement and one of the main causes of his life. COS, under DM, is still pursuing this vendetta!

I think that was all there was to it. The psychiatric community turned down Hubbard's offer to turn Dianetics over to them and they also went after Hubbard's Dianetics and its groups flat out and tried to shut down Hubbard's new movement. Hubbard retaliated by trying to take them down and prevail over them. That's really all there is to this issue. Hubbard did not really think that Psychiatry was the huge demon that he painted it to be, he only mocked up that facade in his attempt to get even with Psychiatry.

Hubbard was only one man with a small fledgling movement and limited funding. Organized psychiatry probably figured that they would steam roller Hubbard and his movement easily and quickly. Hubbard, however, was a very powerful personality and he mustered considerable resources and he fought the Psychiatry profession continually since around 1948. I, for one, can't help but admire Hubbard for making a stand against them. I don't believe for a minute that psychiatry was ever as bad as the picture Hubbard painted of it Even so, he fought them for decades and it was not a one sided fight. The huge Psychiatric juggernaught, funded by governments around the world, world banking and International Medical Associations attempted to steam roller a small time pulp fiction writer with a small fledgling movement of only a few thousand people. The fact that Hubbard could hang in there for many decades dishing out as much bad PR and destruction to them as he received from them states a lot about how much power Hubbard could exert when he set his mind to it.

You can hate Hubbard for all the hurt he gave to many people who followed him or love him for major help you think you received from him but the fact that Hubbard went toe to toe against Psychiatry for nearly 40 years and was able to inflict damage on them while DM has carried on the battle for another 30 years, is something that has to be admired, even if you aren't particularly fond of Hubbard. This one guy, who was just a pulp fiction author with virtually no funds was able to wage war against organized Psychiatry and hold his ground and not buckle and that is truly an amazing feat. It shows that things deemed impossible may actually be possible. It shows than one individual can cause a difference in this world and it is something that Hubbard achieved which has to generate feelings of admiration, even if one doesn't like Hubbard!!!
Lakey

Here's what Ron said, from the link I provided above, since you didn't read it, I reckon: (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...k)-in-your-org&p=996266&viewfull=1#post996266)

"Hubbard

My own philosophy, my own method of existing is far, far different, perhaps in many cases, than the usual data itself, because I've selected out, after all, certain randomities.

There are certain things which I have decided to be mad at in this universe. I've decided to be mad at psychiatrists. There is no reason why I should be mad at psychiatrists. Really, the sensible thing for me to do about psychiatrists is simply go over and talk to them, make a couple of patients well, show them how they can make bigger fees, pat them all on the head, and you've got Dianetics and psychiatry. But, there is no randomity there. No randomity at all. They're never going to hurt a preclear, really. I can rave and rant about electric shock and prefontal lobotomy - you can pick them up in the next life and they'll be as good as new"

Your response is completely different than what Ron said.

Can you paraphrase what Ron said?
(Just what Ron said, with no additives, opinions, etc.)

PS: I don't have a writing style, I just write. Mostly off the cuff.

And, how about you, C-BS, can you paraphrase what Ron said w/o your poetry, opinions, additives, etc.

PPS. Lakey I didn't ask for your opinion, I asked for what is your opinion of what Ron said.

PPPS. opinion actually meaning what is your understanding of what Ron said.

 

[JackStraw]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Gib asked for my opinion about why Hubbard went after psychiatry. I gave him what he asked for. To me, Hubbard was neutral on psychiatry but psychiatry swayed public opinion in the area of mental health. Hubbard had a compulsion to want to be admired and therefore courted psychiatry, offering to give his work to them, in an effort to gain their endorsement. They rejected Hubbard and his work so he decided to get even with them by attacking and discrediting them. That's my response to GIb.

Lakey

Something I posted shortly after joining this MB back in 2009:

This bit of lecture always fascinated me:

From lecture "Introduction: The Q List and Beginning of Logics", 10 Nov 1952,
The Perception of Truth transscript page 9

"My own philosophy, my own method of existing is far, far different, perhaps in many cases that the data itself, because I've selected out, after all, certain randomities.

"There are certain things which I have decided to be mad at in this universe.
I've decided to be mad at psychiatrists. There is no reason why I should be mad at psychiatrists. Really, the sensible thing for me to do about psychiatrists is simply to go over and talk to them, make a couple of patients
well, show them how they can make bigger fees, pat them on the head, and you've got Dianetics and psychiatry. But there's no randomity there. No randomity at all.

"There never going to hurt a preclear, really. I can rave and rant about electric shock and prefrontal lobotomy-you can pick them up in the next
life and they'll be as good as new."

So, all this anti-psych stuff, all the world's (universe's) problems were caused by psychs etc. is all becaus Ron wanted a little randomity in his life.

Thanks, Greatest Friend of Mankind!

Jack

 

[Gib]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Something I posted shortly after joining this MB back in 2009:

This bit of lecture always fascinated me:

From lecture "Introduction: The Q List and Beginning of Logics", 10 Nov 1952,
The Perception of Truth transscript page 9

"My own philosophy, my own method of existing is far, far different, perhaps in many cases that the data itself, because I've selected out, after all, certain randomities.

"There are certain things which I have decided to be mad at in this universe.
I've decided to be mad at psychiatrists. There is no reason why I should be mad at psychiatrists. Really, the sensible thing for me to do about psychiatrists is simply to go over and talk to them, make a couple of patients
well, show them how they can make bigger fees, pat them on the head, and you've got Dianetics and psychiatry. But there's no randomity there. No randomity at all.

"There never going to hurt a preclear, really. I can rave and rant about electric shock and prefrontal lobotomy-you can pick them up in the next
life and they'll be as good as new."

So, all this anti-psych stuff, all the world's (universe's) problems were caused by psychs etc. is all becaus Ron wanted a little randomity in his life.

Thanks, Greatest Friend of Mankind!

Jack

wow, that's cool Jack.

I didn't know another posted this statement by Hubbard.

I think it is significant and worthy of discussion. For that statement by hubbard is the cause of the IAS scam.

I'm very interested to know what old timers think about it.

 

[JackStraw]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

I, personally, think Hubbard "telegraphed" his plan all the time.

I remember listening to taped lectures about "Illusions", "Traps" (theta traps) and "Games" and at some point I got the idea he was talking about himself and what he was doing "in and with Scientology." Scn IS the game, the illusion, the theta trap and all the lectures made sense with that point of view.

And, yet, I stuck around. WTF?!?!

Jack

 

[lkwdblds]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Here's what Ron said, from the link I provided above, since you didn't read it, I reckon: (http://www.forum.exscn.net/showthre...k)-in-your-org&p=996266&viewfull=1#post996266)



Your response is completely different than what Ron said.

I disagree with you. My response is pretty close to what he said himself. I indicated that he did not believe that psychiatry is as evil as he later made it out to be and that turned out to be his true feeling. I mentioned that he was not in favor of pre frontal lobotomies and that turned out to correct. A key question concerns WHEN he made those comments you quoted. Did he make them BEFORE or AFTER he presented Dianetics to a group of leading psychiatrists? His comments must have come BEFORE that event of 1947 or 1948.

What seems to have happened is that he had some preconception on how psychiatrists would perceive his work. Those preconceptions were totally wrong and it must have irked him just as I suggested and his response was to carry out a lifelong vendetta against psychiatry.

Can you paraphrase what Ron said?
(Just what Ron said, with no additives, opinions, etc.)

PS: I don't have a writing style, I just write. Mostly off the cuff.

Okay, thanks for correcting me.

And, how about you, C-BS, can you paraphrase what Ron said w/o your poetry, opinions, additives, etc.

PPS. Lakey I didn't ask for your opinion, I asked for what is your opinion of what Ron said.

PPPS. opinion actually meaning what is your understanding of what Ron said.

You want my opinion of what Ron said. My opinion is as follows, I believe he made that statement before he actually went over and talked to a group of noted psychiatrists. For him to feel the way he did, thinking he had no real beef with psychiatry but wanting to play around with them and insult them for no good reason other than that he marched to a different drummer than the rest of us must have been Ron's case talking. This type of behavior seems narcissistic to me.

Apparently, he had enough decency to rise above his case and go over and talk to a group of psychiatrists. This would be Hubbard the humanitarian rising above Hubbard the Narcissist. So Hubbard rises above his phobia only to be strongly dissed by the psychiatric profession. They discredit him as not being qualified to develop mental technology and reject his claims as to how well Dianetics works and then walk away from him and even use their connections to try and take him down. Hubbard decides then to lace on his boxing gloves and go to war with the psychiatric profession.

Also, I did not like Hubbard's comments about the possibility of keeping quiet and not complaining about lobotomies because when a person's brain is damaged by surgery, the person, being born into a new body, will be fit as a fiddle in his next life. This comment is a terrible thing to say. He is essentially saying that it is no big deal to live in a body with a damaged brain for 50 or 60 years and suffer through that life in a terrible condition because in your next life, you get a fresh start. The first thing I thought of is that past lives are not certainties and it is just speculation that we come back. Even if we do come back, we are not the same exact person so how can the leader of a church and/or the developer of a mental science toss off so lightly what people may suffer through for decades after they have a lobotomy?
Lakey

 

[Enthetan]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

Something Anonymous may find useful in future announcement videos:

[video=youtube;TGI4oz1QnZo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGI4oz1QnZo[/video]

 

[lkwdblds]

Something Lighthearted - Kirk Douglas sings a "Whale of a Tale"

I was talking to Purple Haze tonight and we got onto hard unpleasant women. I mentioned Harpoon Hannah who Kirk Douglas, the fine actor, sang about in the Disney Movie, "20,000 Leagues Under the Sea" in 1954. Purple Haze suggest that I post a video of the song. Kirk Douglas is now 98 years old so he was about 34 when he sang this song. I believe in his entire movie career, this was the only song he ever sang but being a professional at whatever he does, he did a professional job of pulling of this song:

Here is Part 1:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfiQAvvmXvc

Then there is Part 2 which is at the end of the song and mentions Harpoon Hannah:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyMwpmvM1E4

Lakey

 

[Gizmo]

Re: The old days - Aboard the Apollo - 1973

When people mention "all the good" lrh accomplished I gave that some thought - and tried to stay with some apparent fact.

From his history it is easy to see from a very early age on he certainly lived an astoundingly amazing life filled chuck full endless adventures !

One of the most stunning, to me, was while lay in hospital blinded & crippled from war injuries & abandoned by friends & family so he tells us in that condition he alone managed to do the research to discover dianetics to heal himself with. Bravo !

This probably was true as after all he was a DR of nuclear physics & a medical doctor. Plus he had the bravado of a barn stormer ! ( Only evil people claim he only managed to fly a glider & the FAA never issued him a license for powered flight ).

But, moving on.... He was a world famous creator of music with the Apollo Stars who captured the entire world with his accomplishments.

We'll skip his world class exhibition of photographs left for all to see in so many books he took after years of dedicated photography !

He broke his back coming up OT III to save us all. Did it by himself. Like all good things in his religion he alone came up it. Some fool slipped in this two terminal universe nonsense as Ron hisself came up with everything worthwhile.
And mere words didn't exist to cover his genius so he made up his own words as he went along - and was kind enough to tell us exactly what they had to mean !

Study Tek ? Ron. World Clearing? Ron. OCA? Ron. Alternate repetitive processing ? Ron. Repair lists? Ron. TR's? Ron. Nots ? Ron ( once again unconscious & almost in a coma he instructed David Mayo how to do this new set of processing ).

Hey, if it is any part of scientology or dianetics you better know that Ron hisself came up with it all on his own - every word of it !

He even figured out that what you didn't understand something at all somehow you would be able to show in clay with clarity! No matter what or when, it was all Ron.

And as a family man he fostered his children to pursue their happiness. Look at Nibs & Quentin for example. Look how all his children stayed close to hisself & his teachings.

who was that Alexandrea child who was some kind of a pretender ?

Boy Howdy did he ever support his wife ( wasn't Mary Sue the ONLY wife ? ) . He really stood behind Mary Sue all their married life !

And he was always fair to people he didn't like, for instance, Paulette Cooper.

Speaking of fair, when he formed the SO he made sure those people got a fair - but modest - wage plus health & dental care when needed.

His services provided by the church were always fairly priced so everyone could benefit from his work - he only needed a little extra to hire lawyers to fight those who sought to ruin his works.

He NEVER took a dime for himself ! In fact, he spent his money to keep his work available for us. He said so !


He knew, like all religious leaders, that part of expansion is having children born into the religion so he fostered all adherents having more children.

His processing always delivered exactly what was promised & those who didn't feel they got that had recourse to immediate refund no questions asked.

Ron was as truthful, honest & ethical as he always said he was. He was also always known for giving credit where credit was due.

Yes, Ron created a perfect world for all that was destined in short order to become the world "standard".



And, I have to ask, so how's all that working (<- one of their apologists favorite words ) for 'em ?