Anybody notice

[hpm1999]

how many really "nice" people (most of whom happen to be ex COS) post on this ESMB.

I am a newbie but have been lurking for a while. Yes there are some food fights and occasional upsets etc (and to be frank the occasional nut jobs)... but for the most part really nice people who are trying to help people without expecting (and probably never receiving) anything in return. but are doing their best in a very nice, easy manner to help people get their heads back on or at least find them.

I posted on the newbie section and someone replied "by posting you are paying it forward- helping others out nice work"... this in a response to my simply writing about my experience (not nearly as exciting as others experiences btw).

...and it made me think about the "exchange speech" I was given when I was completely regged out and close to being penniless (after pouring money into the bridge). I see a lot of things on the board (despite the caveats I gave) that simply kills the exchange theory.

I would guess we have people on the ESMB, who whilst in COS, were horrid, working out of fear and intimidation. I don't mean to demean anyone by saying that. They had to do what they had to do to survive NOW, after leaving COS< they are (not all of them but a great majority) are completely different.

Compare the tone (overall) of the ESMB to what goes on at Gold, or Int or on staff or wherever...

The only thing that changed is the environment (and not being in the COS environment allowed these very same people to change- or perhaps they changed and said "WTF" and got hell out). Either way out of COS they are nice people trying to help others. In many of these same people, I bet, were NOT.

Strange; but being out of COS we seem to be better people, more compassionate, dare I say it: "empathetic". More free thinking on the ESMB in the last 10 days than in the last decade at INT I would suspect.

This is a long winded way of saying "Same people out of COS are a helluva a lot nicer and doing a lot more for people than the COS ever did" at least in my opinion. Sure points to the environment and perhaps the tech as being the problem. Makes me wonder what my crime is.

 

[Dulloldfart]

Useful references on what happens when you put good people in an evil place are Zimbardo's old Stanford Prison Experiment and his recent book The Lucifer Effect. I read the book from my local library.

Paul

 

[hpm1999]

Useful references on what happens when you put good people in an evil place are Zimbardo's old Stanford Prison Experiment and his recent book The Lucifer Effect. I read the book from my local library.

Paul

Incredible! I am going to try to find the Lucifer Affect after reading the review on Amazon.

 

[Anonycat]

I enjoyed the movie Trading Places. It was about that.

 

[Lucretia]

You might also find the Milgram Experiment interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Ordinary nice people can do awful things to others given the "right" reasons.

 

[Jump]

You might also find the Milgram Experiment interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

Ordinary nice people can do awful things to others given the "right" reasons.

And the Asch experiments show that it is much more easy to go along with things even if they're wrong, rather than go against the consensus and speak out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments

 

[Gadfly]

Useful references on what happens when you put good people in an evil place are Zimbardo's old Stanford Prison Experiment and his recent book The Lucifer Effect. I read the book from my local library.

Paul

This comes down to nature versus nurture. There is "you", as a personality, with character traits, morals, standards and other ideas, and then there are the combined forces of the environment acting upon you. These two are always in a dynamic relationship, with each affecting the other.

From another angle, energy tends to create similar vibrations in the things around it. Place a speaker near a large bowl of water, and loudly play a low frequency - the energy will set up similar waves in the water. In the same way, send an angry and upset man into a small room filled with people. The energy of the angry man will "rub off" on many of the others, setting up sympathetic energy patterns in them.

So, when you put people in REALLY horrid situations and environments, they, of course, can and will do really horrid things.

As an extreme, if you treat a person with total unmitigated abuse, such as locking them up for years, making them piss and shit themselves in a small room, feeding them dead mice and ants, forcing them to hurt and kill others, they will lose all sense of their larger humanity (which depends on and DEMANDS an uplifting and supportive environment). They will lose all aspects of a human being, and devolve to the state of a caged animal.

All is relative. You, to some degree, depend on the context in which you find yourself.

You can be the best you can be in a healthy and nurturing environment. But also, you can be the worst that you can be in a horrible environment. That is why utopian thinkers ever since Plato have placed attention on creating a perfect environment (aka "social engineering") that might thereby produce the "best possible version of a person". Of course, realizing that vision is not without a great many problems.

 

[Anonycat]

This comes down to nature versus nurture. There is "you", as a personality, with character traits, morals, standards and other ideas, and then there are the combine forces of the environment acting upon you. These two are always in a relationship.

From another angle, energy tends to create similar vibrations in the things around it. Place a speaker near a large bowl of water, and loudly play a low frequency - the energy will set up similar waves in the water. In the same way, send an angry and upset man into a small room filled with people. The energy of the angry man will "rub off" on many of the others, setting up sympathetic energy patterns in them.

So, when you put people in REALLY horrid situations and environments, they, of course, can and will do really horrid things.

At an extreme, if you treat a person with total unmitigated abuse, such as locking them up for years, making them piss and shit themselves in a small room, feeding them dead mice and ants, they will lose all sense of their larger humanity (which depends on and DEMANDS an uplifting and supportive environment). They will lose all aspects of a human being, and devolve to the state of a caged animal.

All is relative.

You can be the best you can be in a healthy and nurturing environment. But also, you can be the worst that you can be in a horrible environment. That is why utopian thinkers ever since Plato have placed attention on creating a perfect environment that might thereby produce the "best possible version of a person". Of course, realizing that vision is not with a great many problems.

I saw that in The Life of Pi. That was excellent.

 

[WildKat]

how many really "nice" people (most of whom happen to be ex COS) post on this ESMB.
....but for the most part really nice people who are trying to help people without expecting (and probably never receiving) anything in return. but are doing their best in a very nice, easy manner to help people get their heads back on or at least find them.

One of the reasons I stay here and keep posting is because I think it's important to help people newly out. It can be therapeutic to lurk and just read, but it is also really important to interact and tell your story, and have people acknowledge or give their feedback, or even to have a good argument (politely, of course).

People will always come and go from ESMB, but there is some feeling of fulfillment in helping out some newbies once in awhile. We were all in their place once ourselves. It's just good to know you're not alone.

 

[Free to shine]

I think most people who joined scientology are in fact good people. The goodness can become hidden and lost amidst the immense pressure "to be" what is demanded of you, which may not be who you really are. Kindness and compassion are not part of scientology, though they may be natural to a person, so when one comes back into the 'normal world' I think it's one of the most important things to resdiscover about yourself. It's nice to watch it unfold here too.

One of the things that helped me was "pay it forward".

Pay it forward is asking the beneficiary of a good deed to repay it to others instead of to the original benefactor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pay_it_forward

A "good deed" can be as simple as a smile.

 

[afaceinthecrowd]

how many really "nice" people (most of whom happen to be ex COS) post on this ESMB.

I am a newbie but have been lurking for a while. Yes there are some food fights and occasional upsets etc (and to be frank the occasional nut jobs)... but for the most part really nice people who are trying to help people without expecting (and probably never receiving) anything in return. but are doing their best in a very nice, easy manner to help people get their heads back on or at least find them.

I posted on the newbie section and someone replied "by posting you are paying it forward- helping others out nice work"... this in a response to my simply writing about my experience (not nearly as exciting as others experiences btw).

...and it made me think about the "exchange speech" I was given when I was completely regged out and close to being penniless (after pouring money into the bridge). I see a lot of things on the board (despite the caveats I gave) that simply kills the exchange theory.

I would guess we have people on the ESMB, who whilst in COS, were horrid, working out of fear and intimidation. I don't mean to demean anyone by saying that. They had to do what they had to do to survive NOW, after leaving COS< they are (not all of them but a great majority) are completely different.

Compare the tone (overall) of the ESMB to what goes on at Gold, or Int or on staff or wherever...

The only thing that changed is the environment (and not being in the COS environment allowed these very same people to change- or perhaps they changed and said "WTF" and got hell out). Either way out of COS they are nice people trying to help others. In many of these same people, I bet, were NOT.

Strange; but being out of COS we seem to be better people, more compassionate, dare I say it: "empathetic". More free thinking on the ESMB in the last 10 days than in the last decade at INT I would suspect.

This is a long winded way of saying "Same people out of COS are a helluva a lot nicer and doing a lot more for people than the COS ever did" at least in my opinion. Sure points to the environment and perhaps the tech as being the problem. Makes me wonder what my crime is.

Some of the very finest, kindest and most downright decent folks I have ever known I met in the CofS, SO and on the Apollo...some of the most callous, cruel and evil folks I have ever known I met in the CofS, SO and on the Apollo.

During my tenure on Flag I most certainly was often being intimidated, dealt with my own personal fear and did things I now...and then...consider horrid. But, I'm in essence not any different now than I was then...That's why I walked away and that's why I have posted over 100,000 words on ESMB of what I saw, what I did and--most importantly--about my fellow Scns, SO Crew and Shipmates. All I am now as compared to then is much older, with lots of scar tissue and far better informed (thanks to ESMB and all the Links here to accurate, first hand accounts and truly valuable information).

I'll never be able to properly, completely and deservedly do full justice to the stories of all the fine, kind and most downright decent folks I crossed paths with in Scn, SO and on Flag but ESMB and all that so many of Us have placed here...from our hurt, still healing and open Hearts...is the best there is and will ever be that captures and tells the whole story.

Face

PS: I, personally, don't give a flying F what your "crime" is, hpm1999.

 

[Gadfly]

I think most people who joined scientology are in fact good people. The goodness can become hidden and lost amidst the immense pressure "to be" what is demanded of you, which may not be who you really are. Kindness and compassion are not part of scientology, though they may be natural to a person, so when one comes back into the 'normal world' I think it's one of the most important things to resdiscover about yourself. It's nice to watch it unfold here too.

One of the things that helped me was "pay it forward".

A "good deed" can be as simple as a smile.

I just LOVED the movie, Pay It Forward.

I watch it every few years, and get lots out of it every time. It is a truly beautiful and nearly-perfect movie.

[video=youtube;Cgq8nDBcufo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgq8nDBcufo[/video]

In fact, I got more out of this one movie than ALL of Scientology combined!

Compassion, connection with all others, and real understanding of others OOZES from the story.

Of course, in Scientology, paying it forward would be "out exchange", and would involve helping DBs and other assorted "unable" types of people.

 

[Free to shine]

I just LOVED the movie, Pay It Forward.

I watch it every few years, and get lots out of it every time.


In fact, I got more out of this one movie than of ALL of Scientology combined!

Compassion, connection with all others, and real understanding of others OOZES from the story.

Yes, one of the most wonderful movies ever. I meant to post a link, thanks!

 

[sallydannce]

The scientology culture is highly competitive and adversarial.

Every action, every emotion, is aligned to the cause in some way. Everything is statisticised, from number of books sold, to the number of words looked up in a dictionary, to the training levels taken, to the number of persons attending an event – the whole system is managed by numbers, by attainment within the system. You are constantly competing with others or being herded towards something serving “the cause”.

Should a scientologist (the true believer) feel something like empathy or sorrow for another persons suffering, they are trained to filter that through things like the tone scale, the ethics conditions, etc. The person is constantly mentally playing with “what part of the tech should I apply here…”

So you don’t have authentic responses. You have filtered responses based on Hubbard’s writings. You have responses directly controlled by the scientology culture.

Take a person out of that culture and gently let them start to feel for themselves, think for themselves, express themselves without the competitive adversarial constricting filtering, and you get people behaving more compassionately, more lovingly, more authentically. More themselves if you will.

Let someone truly relax and you will get their sweetness, their compassion, their sense of decency. The scientology culture is anything but relaxed. The culture pounds you with how “faulty” you are, how you need to be “fixed”, how you are not enough and need to give more, more, more. It is full of fear and obligation and guilt.

ESMB is, mostly, a place where people can share their thoughts in a relaxed way and genuinely connect up without a whole shit load of competitive fear.

 

[Free Being Me]

“Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around.”― Leo Buscaglia

 

[Gib]

“Too often we underestimate the power of a touch, a smile, a kind word, a listening ear, an honest compliment, or the smallest act of caring, all of which have the potential to turn a life around.”― Leo Buscaglia

I believe I can sell a book or two using that concept. (LRH)

 

[AnonyMary]

Incredible! I am going to try to find the Lucifer Affect after reading the review on Amazon.

The Lucifer Effect: Understanding How Good People Turn Evil - Philip G. Zimbardo
(Zimbardo starts at 04:30)
[video=youtube_share;9xpsVlY3QQc]http://youtu.be/9xpsVlY3QQc[/video]

Here's the short version of the Stanford Prison Experiment
[video=youtube;sZwfNs1pqG0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZwfNs1pqG0[/video]

 

[Ho Tai]

I am hesitant to say this, but helping others was never high on my list of priorities in life. Then I found $cn, and the issue of help became a major factor. I joined staff, and it seemed that most of our efforts were supposedly directed toward helping others. But even then, to me what I was doing was what I was supposed to do (selling books etc.), and the help part of it was assumed to be the result (though I never really saw that result). After I got out, I still carried the feeling that I should be helping others, and I found ways to do that that made sense to me and in which I could actually see the results of people being helped. I am always deeply touched when somebody says "thank you" for something that I did to help them. It is personal. I can't say that what I did in the name of help in the COS ever touched me in a way that made me think I was actually helping anyone. But in the sense that I think I am a better person post-$cn than pre-$cn, $cn had a positive effect on me. If only it hadn't been for the much more numerous negative effects...

hpm1999, I really enjoyed your post.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

how many really "nice" people (most of whom happen to be ex COS) post on this ESMB.

I am a newbie but have been lurking for a while. Yes there are some food fights and occasional upsets etc (and to be frank the occasional nut jobs)... but for the most part really nice people who are trying to help people without expecting (and probably never receiving) anything in return. but are doing their best in a very nice, easy manner to help people get their heads back on or at least find them.

I posted on the newbie section and someone replied "by posting you are paying it forward- helping others out nice work"... this in a response to my simply writing about my experience (not nearly as exciting as others experiences btw).

...and it made me think about the "exchange speech" I was given when I was completely regged out and close to being penniless (after pouring money into the bridge). I see a lot of things on the board (despite the caveats I gave) that simply kills the exchange theory.

I would guess we have people on the ESMB, who whilst in COS, were horrid, working out of fear and intimidation. I don't mean to demean anyone by saying that. They had to do what they had to do to survive NOW, after leaving COS< they are (not all of them but a great majority) are completely different.

Compare the tone (overall) of the ESMB to what goes on at Gold, or Int or on staff or wherever...

The only thing that changed is the environment (and not being in the COS environment allowed these very same people to change- or perhaps they changed and said "WTF" and got hell out). Either way out of COS they are nice people trying to help others. In many of these same people, I bet, were NOT.

Strange; but being out of COS we seem to be better people, more compassionate, dare I say it: "empathetic". More free thinking on the ESMB in the last 10 days than in the last decade at INT I would suspect.

This is a long winded way of saying "Same people out of COS are a helluva a lot nicer and doing a lot more for people than the COS ever did" at least in my opinion. Sure points to the environment and perhaps the tech as being the problem. Makes me wonder what my crime is.

I thought I'd EPd on the board, that I was free of the worse effects of my career in a cult, the fact was that yes I'm over it, but this is a really good bunch of people who who have amazing insights into the human condition, their clarity comes from having observed human insanity, and at close quarters. There are some very clever minds, some very warm people and generally nice chaps here. I am very glad I came here!

 

[hpm1999]

It's just good to know you're not alone.

I am in an office this morning with perhaps 100 people. We will talk and work through the day (no yelling or screaming- no confront(s), no withholds or overts because something goes wrong (instead we use Toyota's Root Cause five why's approach an focus on real datum- which works JUST fine thank you very much). A great place to work here- with nice people.

But there is a part of my head (sometimes all of it)- that is still alone, despite all of the above- and the freedom!

You are right it IS comforting to know that you are NOT alone like that. At its essence I am starting to think that the COS is built on isolation and busy-ness. Keeping one surrounded by others but no real comm- and very busy going up the bridge or fundraising other stuff.