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Are they leaving?

Commander Birdsong

Commander Birdsong

Crusader
Mimsey Borogrove said:
OhMG - I don't consider a person that is inactive to have left the church. The difference is they still consider themselves to be Scientologists. My point is they are becoming inactive in droves, not leaving the church in droves. They are not renouncing Scientology.

When I was back on lines years ago, someone explained it to me in this fashion: there are Scientologists and there is Scientology. Meaning Scientology the philosophy is "perfect" but Scientologists apply it imperfectly. So this explains the "fallen Angels", the OT's that blow, the crazy news reports, the lack of stats - it just isn't being applied correctly, or maybe Hubbard was exaggerating a little with his claims, but the tech is 100% workable, if done correctly.

They believe. However, they don't show up.

Mimsey
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hmmmm...

you've been reading me a bit mims...

would you think of me as "someone who has left the church"?
 
Sindy

Sindy

Crusader
Lulu Belle said:
Mims,

I know what you're saying.

But from the viewpoint of the church itself these "inactive OTs" are a huge, huge problem. A very expensive draining problem. Especially for the service orgs.

They don't pay any money. They don't produce any stats.

A lot of time, money and effort is spent by the orgs trying to "recover" these people. There are hours of time spent by call in people and regges trying to get them in. Money is spent sending them letters and promo. Staff have to give up their few hours off for hygiene time to be on the phone begging them to come in for events. FSMs are used to go to their house and give them "ARC Break handlings".

It goes on and on.

When I was service org staff, I would have been happy to see most or all of these people just up and publicly leave the church so that they would be OSA's problem, not mine.
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In addition, every single one of them, with advanced payments on account (most), is a potential refund request. They don't like that and would rather get these people to completely drain their accounts for useless materials (and THEN have them sit out in the wilderness forever) than let them sit idle with the possibility of going to the "dark side" where their unused accounts hold undue (in their opinion) influence over the cult, legally.
 
Sindy

Sindy

Crusader
OhMG said:
Irrelevant. The Church is an organization. Read your original post. You are conflating two different things. Thus, you are making illogical statement.
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Dude (dude-ess) please differentiate between me and the OP. I did not make the OP and my comment that you are saying is irrelevant IS my first and original comment on this thread. I don't know what you're talking about.
 
Sindy

Sindy

Crusader
OhMG said:
Disagree with what? That not participating in/with an organization means one isn't participating/being in said organization??????
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The point is whether or not the inactive people still consider themselves to be part of the organization or not and the vast majority of inactive people most likely still consider themselves to be part of the organiszation. They will not have considered themselves to have left. Thus, the comment that "people are leaving in droves" is not really accurate. Maybe more people are being inactive but they are not leaving. Leaving is a state of mind or a conviction.
 
guanoloco

guanoloco

As-Wased
Sindy said:
Dude (dude-ess) please differentiate between me and the OP. I did not make the OP and my comment that you are saying is irrelevant IS my first and original comment on this thread. I don't know what you're talking about.
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You know, Sin, if you truly don't know what you're talking about then you should consider becoming a guru and starting a cult because that's exactly what Ron did!

HIP! HYPE! HOOEY!
 
O

OhMG

Patron Meritorious
Sindy said:
The point is whether or not the inactive people still consider themselves to be part of the organization or not and the vast majority of inactive people most likely still consider themselves to be part of the organiszation.
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If I consider myself to be an NFL player, does it mean that I am????? If I consider myself to be an employee of IBM and I don't work there, am I an employee there???? :duh::duh::duh::duh:
 
Mick Wenlock

Mick Wenlock

Admin Emeritus (retired)
OhMG said:
If I consider myself to be an NFL player, does it mean that I am????? If I consider myself to be an employee of IBM and I don't work there, am I an employee there???? :duh::duh::duh::duh:
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actually the status "employee" is not conferred by the employee but by the employer. So it would not matter what you considered yourself to be.

But profession of faith is something an individual does on their own behalf.

There is difference
 
Sindy

Sindy

Crusader
OhMG said:
Not talking about faith. Talking about participating in an organization. Either one IS or one ISN'T.
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Okay. People are leaving droves. Happy?

So, you have a bunch of people out in the field who have "left" (per you) but who still consider themselves to not have left and the organization itself still counts them as adherents. Okay. Whatever.
 
Idle Morgue

Idle Morgue

Gold Meritorious Patron
There is "leaving" and "left".

I LEFT!!:happydance: Of course, the Co$ thinks I am still "in". I have not said one peep to anyone. I tell them I am making money so I can do my next step on the Bridge...:coolwink: - got a close member still "in" and don't want to disconnect from them - so I "pretend"...in the best interest of my loved one! I don't want to lose them. :bigcry:When they call me to the events - I don't call back or respond.


Many Scientologists are "leaving". They sit on the side lines and won't go in, can't go in but don't really know why....they know something is wrong. I call them "fringers". The "fringers" are essentially in waiting - and Tubby says "waiting" duplicates a "static" and that duplicates "death", which sucks.

Who likes to wait....but Flag, ASHO and AOLA all make you "wait" - it makes you upset and puts you under their thumb and total control of the organization soas to fleece you...a very clever mind manipulation mechanism. Think about your experiences - did you WAIT to get in session - wait a long time and did it upset you??? Then guess what - they put you in session and you are digging to get your "whhhhhin" so you can get the hell out of there and back to work and family! Very, very crafty that ole Hub Tub Turd!!

What these people are waiting for, is beyond me. Many think it is their local "Org" that is Bat Shit Crazy - because they are so irresponsible and will not LOOK - they wait...and wait...and wait....

OT Stats over the past few years from INSIDE SOURCE at one ORG:

3 - OT 8's DECLARED SP's
2 - OT 8 - DIED OF CANCER
1- OT8 - divorced spouse after obtaining this "incredible level of awareness" - then eventually left the area after losing home and job, filed BK - very distraught and soured on Co$!
1- OT8 - left the area - lost home and filed BK, divorced from another OT8, also DECLARED SP.
2 - OT8's - moved out of the area - never to be heard from again.
2 - OT'7's - investigated by local staff as to the "WHO" that was prohibiting Scientology from groing in the local Org. They had their certs cancelled and not allowed to audit (FSM / had a mission and were auditing outside public)....Hovering but not active. Pissed off... waiting since 1990's...won't go to FLAG (got fleeced for sec checks $100K) and are rather sour and nasty beings. They can't help it...covert invalidation and nullification is the social intercourse of Scientology Organization that calls themselves a "CHURCH"!
2 - OT 5's - nasty divorce - shattered family - very confused and not coming to the ORG nor going anywhere else.
3 - OT 8's - not coming around the ORG and don't call back when called.

THESE ARE THE ONLY OT's after 60 years of Scientology that are active....

4 - OT 7's - are on the level and getting their sec checks like clock work - all of them have had health problems. They don't do anything for the ORG - NOTHING....they don't call back re: events or Central Files, call-in, OT committee or anything....they are just trying to get done with this nasty level. 75% have been on the level for many years....$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The definition of "LEAVE" is:

leave[SUP]1[/SUP]
lēv/
verb
gerund or present participle: leaving
1.
go away from.

"she left New York on June 6"
synonyms:depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from, take one's leave of, pull out of, be gone from, decamp from, disappear from, vacate, absent oneself from; More

The ones that are not coming in HAVE LEFT!!:happydance:

YOU ARE EITHER 100% IN or 100% OUT!! If you are not going in - you are GONE!!
 
AnonKat

AnonKat

Crusader
NO OTS NOT ANYWHERE

[video=youtube;WVZlCDp-o5c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVZlCDp-o5c[/video]

Mimsey Borogrove said:
OT's are leaving in droves! I see this generality on this blog and others and I grate my teeth each time I read it. I don't think it is true in the least. Based on my experience when I was on lines, and in observing the few Scientologists I am in still in com with, that is not true. What they are is inactive. Obviously, they don't go on line and read entheta about Scientology - they must have seen the stuff that pops up on the media and they take it with a grain of salt.

Here's an example - albeit a little dated. I was talking to an OT about Hy Levy leaving the church and coming out ( his statement on Marty's was emailed all over the place and this OT got it ) I asked what the OT thought of it, and the response was this: He's nattering.

My friends consider themselves Scientologists, they believe in the basic concepts of the tech, to what ever extent they have studied it, but they go on with their lives. They have jobs, they live their lives, but they don't go on course, they don't get any more auditing, they don't move on the bridge. And from the down sizing of the event halls, it is certain they avoid those reg fests as well.

When I was last on lines, and on course, like any good OT should be, there were almost more staff than public. A big reversal from the 80's when the orgs were packed.

So, in the immortal words of the Sneakster: DOCS of STFU!

Prove to me your statement that they are leaving in droves.

Mimsey
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O

OhMG

Patron Meritorious
Idle Morgue said:
There is "leaving" and "left".

I LEFT!!:happydance: Of course, the Co$ thinks I am still "in". I have not said one peep to anyone. I tell them I am making money so I can do my next step on the Bridge...:coolwink: - got a close member still "in" and don't want to disconnect from them - so I "pretend"...in the best interest of my loved one! I don't want to lose them. :bigcry:When they call me to the events - I don't call back or respond.
Click to expand...

Right. And based on historic traffic vs. the present, at AO's & FSO, most OT's have "left the Church" like you have done.( But, in order to be officially counted we'll need a signed, notarized, witnessed affidavit & Official Chuch SP declare order. Otherwise it doesn't count. ;)
 
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Mimsey Borogrove

Mimsey Borogrove

Crusader
You are just trying to jack up our TA with your semantic games. It still doesn't alter the reality there are many inactive Scientologists. Mimsey
 
AnonKat

AnonKat

Crusader
Here is an "OT" that left l, I like him better as an HB (human being that is)

[video=youtube;OypJljqNT34]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OypJljqNT34[/video]
 
Sindy

Sindy

Crusader
Mimsey Borogrove said:
You are just trying to jack up our TA with your semantic games. It still doesn't alter the reality there are many inactive Scientologists. Mimsey
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Case in point: There are many, many inactive people who, if push came to shove and one of their friends, family members, or employees had a problem, they would still "select" that person into an org for "help". There are many inactive people who still pay their WISE dues, go to WISE seminars, etc even if they don't get auditing, go on course or go to events.

I agree, we are talking semantics here.
 
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