BPD, Borderline Personality Disorder

[Mike Laws]

I came across this ... not in any way related to anything Scilon related. I had no idea what this was, that it existed ... knew absolutely nothing about it. Has been fascinating to learn about.

In studying, I am wondering if this might not be one of the EPs of the Scilon, especially SO culture .... We often talk of PTSD, which I completely believe is a real thing for some or many exes, this is quite different, but has similar elements ...

Would be curious as to thoughts or experience.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

 

[BunnySkull]

I came across this ... not in any way related to anything Scilon related. I had no idea what this was, that it existed ... knew absolutely nothing about it. Has been fascinating to learn about.

In studying, I am wondering if this might not be one of the EPs of the Scilon, especially SO culture .... We often talk of PTSD, which I completely believe is a real thing for some or many exes, this is quite different, but has similar elements ...

Would be curious as to thoughts or experience.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

I've always thought Hubbard was a BPD, and since much of Scientology is intended to remake you into a mini-LRH, maybe it is the EP. However, most BPD are born that way. BPD are to be avoided at all costs, the whirling hurricane of drama, selfishness and insanity that they bring to anything they encounter makes them among the most emotionally destructive and manipulative people you'll ever meet. We've all probably met one or more BPD and the harm they cause until you realize the only solution is to run far far away and never look back.

 

[Kemist]

I came across this ... not in any way related to anything Scilon related. I had no idea what this was, that it existed ... knew absolutely nothing about it. Has been fascinating to learn about.

In studying, I am wondering if this might not be one of the EPs of the Scilon, especially SO culture .... We often talk of PTSD, which I completely believe is a real thing for some or many exes, this is quite different, but has similar elements ...

Would be curious as to thoughts or experience.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

A couple I am friends with have a son with this disorder. He was diagnosed in late adolescence.

They have had a lot of trouble with him. These people are extremely unstable and the slightest thing might provoke them into extreme emotions. For instance, this guy would fly into an uncontrollable rage because his mother had not put his clothes in the right place. His parents have had to call the police on him several times when he became violent or suicidal. The police would keep him in in a cell until he decompressed and release him. There is nothing else they could do, since they could not force him to accept psychiatric treatment.

This is the other side of the current laws regarding mental health : even if you know the person is unwell, even if you know they are a danger to themselves and other members of your family, you cannot compel them to accept treatment. For parents of BPD and schizophrenics, this is a terrible and dangerous thing. Some have paid for this with their lives.

When their son reached his early twenties, he started to become even more violent as he began, like many people with untreated mental health issues, to self-medicate with street drugs. Since their son was incapable of holding a job, he would demand money from them to finance his drug habits, sometimes with threats of violence to them or himself. At some point, they decided that, for their own safety and that of their daughter, their son would have to leave if he continued to refuse treatment. And so he was forced to find living arrangements elsewhere with friends who were unaware of his condition. He soon wore out his welcome there as well, and finally, when he could not hide from himself the fact that his behaviour was not compatible with living with other humans, he agreed to get treated.

He is now followed by a psychiatrist and yes, takes psychiatric drugs that help stabilize his mood. He has also taken up meditation, and that helps him to better control his extreme emotions. He still cannot take the stress of a conventional job, but is autonomous enough to live alone and take care of himself. His parents visit him regularly and have a much better relationship with him.

 

[Miss Ellie]

My ex-wife-in-law is BPD also known as a crazy bitch. The effect of a parent with BPD on kids is unbelievable.

PTSD is very real some can cope and deal with it and some can not. Many things can help people deal with it. Not every thing works for all people. You have to find what helps you or the one you love - what works today may not work tomorrow.

People wanting help are drawn to the sciobots looking for a fix. They might find a fix for one problem then walk out with three more they picked up while in with the sciobots.

Sciobots promise help with all things.... they deliver less than that and tell you it is your fault. You have to try harder. Take someone with real issues and screw them over till the money is gone. What a plan!

Those that start out wanting to help others can be distroyed then kicked to the curb.

What do you call that.... crazy.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

I've always thought Hubbard was a BPD, and since much of Scientology is intended to remake you into a mini-LRH, maybe it is the EP. However, most BPD are born that way. BPD are to be avoided at all costs, the whirling hurricane of drama, selfishness and insanity that they bring to anything they encounter makes them among the most emotionally destructive and manipulative people you'll ever meet. We've all probably met one or more BPD and the harm they cause until you realize the only solution is to run far far away and never look back.

TBH, this BPD syndrome is one I have a problem with. It's like saying; "I can't help being an asshole, I have BPD and I was born with it." I prefer to believe we have some choice over our reactions and our lives.

That having been said, Hubbard does seem to fit it pretty well.

 

[Kemist]

TBH, this BPD syndrome is one I have a problem with. It's like saying; "I can't help being an asshole, I have BPD and I was born with it." I prefer to believe we have some choice over our reactions and our lives.

That having been said, Hubbard does seem to fit it pretty well.

Assholeishness isn't a mental illness. There are assholes among the mentally healthy as well as among the mentally ill.

What BPD does is make people behave like giant toddlers, emotionally. You know how a small child will have uncontrolled temper tantrums and throw things ? BPD tend to do that. They will also attempt crude manipulations to obtain what they want like small children often do. In children, this is a normal phase. They are immature and are learning to find healthy and socially acceptable ways to express their emotions.

But children are small and their flares of violence can be easily controlled by an adult. Their crude manipulations are considered cute and not taken seriously. A person with BPD is an adult with an adult's strength, expected to deal with their emotions in a mature way, and their behaviour becomes rapidly dangerous and socially unacceptable.

There are some choice they can make, like getting treated rather than try to extort money from their parents to buy drugs. But they also have to accept that there are some things which they cannot control without help, because they have a brain disorder. That itself is a difficult step. My friend's son had to literally become homeless before he finally did.

Brain disorders are just as real as physiological ones. Speaking as one who has the second type, I know how tempting (and seemingly 'empowering') denial can be, but also how dangerous it is. It is not easy to accept that there are some things you cannot do because there is something wrong with you, and that you have very little control on this beyond symptom management. But accept you must, if you want to get some quality of life, and in some cases, if you want to have a life at all.

It's a bit the same with brain disorders. My friend's son had dreams of being a journalist. His brain disorder does not allow him to tolerate the stress of a low-level job, and much less that of a highly competitive field like journalism. He has made his peace with that.

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Assholeishness isn't a mental illness. There are assholes among the mentally healthy as well as among the mentally ill.

What BPD does is make people behave like giant toddlers, emotionally. You know how a small child will have uncontrolled temper tantrums and throw things ? BPD tend to do that. They will also attempt crude manipulations to obtain what they want like small children often do. In children, this is a normal phase. They are immature and are learning to find healthy and socially acceptable ways to express their emotions.

But children are small and their flares of violence can be easily controlled by an adult. Their crude manipulations are considered cute and not taken seriously. A person with BPD is an adult with an adult's strength, expected to deal with their emotions in a mature way, and their behaviour becomes rapidly dangerous and socially unacceptable.

There are some choice they can make, like getting treated rather than try to extort money from their parents to buy drugs. But they also have to accept that there are some things which they cannot control without help, because they have a brain disorder. That itself is a difficult step. My friend's son had to literally become homeless before he finally did.

Brain disorders are just as real as physiological ones. Speaking as one who has the second type, I know how tempting (and seemingly 'empowering') denial can be, but also how dangerous it is. It is not easy to accept that there are some things you cannot do because there is something wrong with you, and that you have very little control on this beyond symptom management. But accept you must, if you want to get some quality of life, and in some cases, if you want to have a life at all.

It's a bit the same with brain disorders. My friend's son had dreams of being a journalist. His brain disorder does not allow him to tolerate the stress of a low-level job, and much less that of a highly competitive field like journalism. He has made his peace with that.

I have known people who act like spoiled little rug rats, always wanting their way stamping their feet and having a hissy fit if they fail to get compliance from anyone. This is behaviour presumably learned from a very early age. Some people were just like that when they born, some people were made that way because no one said no at the right time firmly enough.

 

[scooter]

I came across this ... not in any way related to anything Scilon related. I had no idea what this was, that it existed ... knew absolutely nothing about it. Has been fascinating to learn about.

In studying, I am wondering if this might not be one of the EPs of the Scilon, especially SO culture .... We often talk of PTSD, which I completely believe is a real thing for some or many exes, this is quite different, but has similar elements ...

Would be curious as to thoughts or experience.

http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borderline_personality_disorder

Interesting, Mike.

I think that the folk in the cult who I can think of who may be BPD have had the childhood abuse and further developed BPD after the abuse in the SO/org. I can't think of any who didn't have the childhood abuse.

Can't see Hubbard suffering from it tho' - can see him inflicting it on others, especially Quentin

 

[Kemist]

I have known people who act like spoiled little rug rats, always wanting their way stamping their feet and having a hissy fit if they fail to get compliance from anyone. This is behaviour presumably learned from a very early age. Some people were just like that when they born, some people were made that way because no one said no at the right time firmly enough.

That's pretty much the consensus on most personality disorders, yes. The risk of developing them is highly correlated with the behaviours one has been exposed to as a child. In the case of BPD, it is a little less clear. A lot of them come from loving, balanced households. For instance, my friend's son has a sister who is completely normal.

Another thing to understand is that people might occasionally behave that way and it does not necessarily means that they have a personality disorder. They might just be plain old assholes . The behaviour is under their control and they can stop it if they realize it does not work. Not so with a person with a personality disorder, who will be stuck in that pattern even if it makes them lose everything, up to ending up destitute in the streets.

Most people will be diagnosed with 'tendencies' rather than a full blown disorder. Disorder tends to be used for those people whose social functioning is severely impaired (ex.: cannot hold a job, cannot manage minimal household tasks without supervision, ect.). Personality disorders (axis II in the DSM) are also not considered diseases (axis I in the DSM) as such. They are risk factors, and prognosis modifiers for disease. This can be hell when dealing with health / disability insurance companies, who tend to rely on axis I findings to determine one's health state and capabilities for work.

 

[Mike Laws]

I've always thought Hubbard was a BPD, and since much of Scientology is intended to remake you into a mini-LRH, maybe it is the EP. However, most BPD are born that way. BPD are to be avoided at all costs, the whirling hurricane of drama, selfishness and insanity that they bring to anything they encounter makes them among the most emotionally destructive and manipulative people you'll ever meet. We've all probably met one or more BPD and the harm they cause until you realize the only solution is to run far far away and never look back.

From what I have studied, it seems frequently that BPD is created through environmental conditions as a child, especially around broken families, disruption of the natural trust between family, betrayals by those close to them. To me this is the major thing that related to Scientology, children going into the Sea Org, all normal concepts of friendships and family pretty much destroyed.

Hadn't thought of Hubbard as BPD, will have to digest that one as I continue to study.

Most successful treatment of BPD seems to circulate around CBT (Cognitive Behavioral therapy) which seems to indicate it is environmental/pattern based rather than genetic, there are no medications that are considered to work. I have been meeting with a CBT therapist to try and learn how to function with and perhaps help/support such people.

Believe me, I have learned the hurt and drama around BPD, but this person I really enjoy and would like to continue to have in my life, so not ready to discard them, LOL! Perhaps I am an idiot, but that is my right.

 

[Mike Laws]

A couple I am friends with have a son with this disorder. He was diagnosed in late adolescence.

They have had a lot of trouble with him. These people are extremely unstable and the slightest thing might provoke them into extreme emotions. For instance, this guy would fly into an uncontrollable rage because his mother had not put his clothes in the right place. His parents have had to call the police on him several times when he became violent or suicidal. The police would keep him in in a cell until he decompressed and release him. There is nothing else they could do, since they could not force him to accept psychiatric treatment.

This is the other side of the current laws regarding mental health : even if you know the person is unwell, even if you know they are a danger to themselves and other members of your family, you cannot compel them to accept treatment. For parents of BPD and schizophrenics, this is a terrible and dangerous thing. Some have paid for this with their lives.

When their son reached his early twenties, he started to become even more violent as he began, like many people with untreated mental health issues, to self-medicate with street drugs. Since their son was incapable of holding a job, he would demand money from them to finance his drug habits, sometimes with threats of violence to them or himself. At some point, they decided that, for their own safety and that of their daughter, their son would have to leave if he continued to refuse treatment. And so he was forced to find living arrangements elsewhere with friends who were unaware of his condition. He soon wore out his welcome there as well, and finally, when he could not hide from himself the fact that his behaviour was not compatible with living with other humans, he agreed to get treated.

He is now followed by a psychiatrist and yes, takes psychiatric drugs that help stabilize his mood. He has also taken up meditation, and that helps him to better control his extreme emotions. He still cannot take the stress of a conventional job, but is autonomous enough to live alone and take care of himself. His parents visit him regularly and have a much better relationship with him.

To me this is very interesting, because I can see similarities and differences. It seems like mental health issues can be layered, different things manifest in similar ways, and visa-verse. In my layman understanding there seem to be two main groupings; medical (chemical imbalance, nutritional - allergies, malnourished, improper nutrition for brain development, etc.) and behavioral/environmental. Nutrition may fall into the behavioral environmental class.

The concept I am pursuing is the same one I use to discuss Scientology with those leaving: Are the results you have in your life appropriate for xyz.

 

[Mike Laws]

My ex-wife-in-law is BPD also known as a crazy bitch. The effect of a parent with BPD on kids is unbelievable.

PTSD is very real some can cope and deal with it and some can not. Many things can help people deal with it. Not every thing works for all people. You have to find what helps you or the one you love - what works today may not work tomorrow.

People wanting help are drawn to the sciobots looking for a fix. They might find a fix for one problem then walk out with three more they picked up while in with the sciobots.

Sciobots promise help with all things.... they deliver less than that and tell you it is your fault. You have to try harder. Take someone with real issues and screw them over till the money is gone. What a plan!

Those that start out wanting to help others can be distroyed then kicked to the curb.

What do you call that.... crazy.

LOL, I think my second ex wife, a OT VII Class 6 was one of these. My life had collapsed, lost everything, starting over again. She wanted a divorce because I was not good looking enough for her to be with poor. She started screwing her creative director/photographer at the modeling studio she was working with. When I confronted her, saying that this was a great opportunity to re-build, we could overcome the problem of her being insecure at everything we had being mine from before we married she said this (and I want to get it in a movie some day): "You don't get it! You so physically disgust me that when I realized I was pregnant with your child, I was so continually nauseated by the idea of continuing your genetic line with my body that I had to abort it so that I could eat!"

 

[Mike Laws]

Interesting, Mike.

I think that the folk in the cult who I can think of who may be BPD have had the childhood abuse and further developed BPD after the abuse in the SO/org. I can't think of any who didn't have the childhood abuse.

Can't see Hubbard suffering from it tho' - can see him inflicting it on others, especially Quentin

Scooter, You have probably worked with and through stuff with as many people as I have ... so I value your opinions ... how much of your journey and that of others has been essentially CBT related ... looking at our thought and actions and behaviors, perhaps how it started, and how to change it to get a different result in life?

Hubbard to me seemed more of an opportunistic narcissist, it wasn't until his later years from my understanding that the explosive emotions seemed to occur.

 

[Mike Laws]

That's pretty much the consensus on most personality disorders, yes. The risk of developing them is highly correlated with the behaviours one has been exposed to as a child. In the case of BPD, it is a little less clear. A lot of them come from loving, balanced households. For instance, my friend's son has a sister who is completely normal.

Another thing to understand is that people might occasionally behave that way and it does not necessarily means that they have a personality disorder. They might just be plain old assholes . The behaviour is under their control and they can stop it if they realize it does not work. Not so with a person with a personality disorder, who will be stuck in that pattern even if it makes them lose everything, up to ending up destitute in the streets.

Most people will be diagnosed with 'tendencies' rather than a full blown disorder. Disorder tends to be used for those people whose social functioning is severely impaired (ex.: cannot hold a job, cannot manage minimal household tasks without supervision, ect.). Personality disorders (axis II in the DSM) are also not considered diseases (axis I in the DSM) as such. They are risk factors, and prognosis modifiers for disease. This can be hell when dealing with health / disability insurance companies, who tend to rely on axis I findings to determine one's health state and capabilities for work.

Thanks, this seems to be different to my research ... genetic/biological vs. environmental/behavioral. Can you provide some references or books?

 

[Mike Laws]

TBH, this BPD syndrome is one I have a problem with. It's like saying; "I can't help being an asshole, I have BPD and I was born with it." I prefer to believe we have some choice over our reactions and our lives.

That having been said, Hubbard does seem to fit it pretty well.

For me, your concept of personal responsibility for behavior has been very important, perhaps the most important. I have tried to share it with others and have mostly failed.

I want to believe this is correct, and in the instance of bad behavior I think it absolutely is. However in the instance of deep rooted child hood issues, it seems as deep rooted and non visible to the person as, say PTSD.

Personal responsibility seems best evaluated and measured in time ... long term evaluation of intended and unintended consequences. If people are conditioned to be only in the now ... how I feel now ... they seem unable to evaluate consequences of action.

 

[Kemist]

Thanks, this seems to be different to my research ... genetic/biological vs. environmental/behavioral. Can you provide some references or books?

I read this paper once. Unfortunately it is behind a paywall (I'm fortunate I can get these things through my Uni's VPN):

http://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/7854_2014_308

It links ADHD, bipolar disorder and borderline personality disorder through the same altered functioning in the brain - take this with caution of course, as FMRI studies often involve a very small number of subjects due to the high cost of machine time. It also discusses cases of BPD which had no significant childhood trauma, a bit like my friend's son.

 

[TG1]

Most successful treatment of BPD seems to circulate around CBT (Cognitive Behavioral therapy) which seems to indicate it is environmental/pattern based rather than genetic, there are no medications that are considered to work.

Mike, actually ...

"Many people with borderline personality disorder have a first-degree relative with a serious mental illness (e.g., bipolar disorder or schizophrenia). This is likely due to both genetic and environmental factors."

and

"Once an accurate diagnosis is made, developing a comprehensive treatment plan is important. Typically the treatment plan will include psychotherapy strategies, medications to reduce symptom intensity, and group, peer and family support. One overarching goal is for the person with BPD to increasingly direct their care plan as they learn what works and what is counterproductive for them."

Also ...

"Medications can be an important component to the care plan, yet is important to know that there is no single medication treatment that can “cure” borderline personality disorder. Furthermore, no medication is specifically approved by the FDA for the treatment of BPD. Medications are however useful in treating specific symptoms in BPD and may support and enhance essential psychotherapy efforts. For example, off label use of a number of medications may manage key symptoms, including valproate (Depakote) that may be useful in decreasing impulsivity, omega-3 fatty acids (fish oil) that may be helpful in decreasing mood fluctuations, and naltrexone (Revia), which has helped some people decrease their urges for self-injury and the use of antipsychotic medication may help with symptoms of disorganized thinking. Relief of such symptoms may help the individual change the harmful patterns of thinking and decrease the detrimental behaviors that disrupt their daily activities. Medication treatment of coexisting medical and mental illnesses, such as anxiety or depression, is also very important in the treatment of BPD."

http://www.nami.org/Content/Navigat...y_Illness/Borderline_Personality_Disorder.htm

Sincere best wishes for your relationship with this person. Having known some of these folks and having had friends who have had relationships with BPD-afflicted people I will simply say that when trying to "fix" someone like this (particularly someone to whom you are very close) you will multiply significantly the stress in your own life.

 

[Intentionally Blank]

I had a business partner years ago who had BPD. I ended up losing my business and a whole lot of money. In the end, that situation kept me from mixing finances when I married a scn and probably saved me a whole bunch more money --- but all that is a story for another day.

Here's what I remember about BPD.

Personality disorders are diagnosed on Axis II of the axial system. And then they are placed in clusters depending on key features or overlapping characteristics. BPD is in Cluster B.

http://bpd.about.com/od/relatedconditions/a/Personality-Disorders.htm

Cluster B personality disorders are considered by some to be, possibly, manageable but not curable/fixable. They are characterized by an inability to sustain positive change. That's not to say new work in therapy, medication, or other treatments may not make a difference.

http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/the-predictability-of-pathology

There is also some very interesting research on brain structure anomalies related to personality disorders.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/release...rain+News+--+Borderline+Personality+Disorder)

I too always think of hubbard as a narcissist - with a good helping of paranoid schizophrenia thrown in for fun. And DM certainly as a psychopath.

Blanky

 

[scooter]

Scooter, You have probably worked with and through stuff with as many people as I have ... so I value your opinions ... how much of your journey and that of others has been essentially CBT related ... looking at our thought and actions and behaviors, perhaps how it started, and how to change it to get a different result in life?

Hubbard to me seemed more of an opportunistic narcissist, it wasn't until his later years from my understanding that the explosive emotions seemed to occur.

From what I've read of Malignant Narcissists, they can have the "explosive" emotions but it's all a show - it's just to keep the slaves around them tame. I don't know if that was what Hubbard was doing but I suspect as much.

As for CBT, my wife is far more conversant with it than me. But a lot of my personal decompression has been getting educated on what the cult really was, and then being able to change accordingly. Getting the mechanics of what I'd experienced rather than my thoughts/conclusions. I was interested in CBT for a while as a tool but dropped it when I saw my wife struggle to change using it. For her, the major changes occurred when she understood the behaviours of others who were around her. It did make her happy at times when she could successfully find that original thought and she still thinks it's a good tool.

I should add the rider that I became wary of ANY therapy approach after I left the cult. I saw it work for others but found that plain research for myself was the best therapy - that and the time alone in the bush to sort it out. I've seen it successful for a few folk (general therapy) but I don't know if any of that was CBT based.

I think for SO kids in particular it may be a useful tool. It's certainly worth trying as there as several I can think of who seem to fit the BPD diagnosis. Sciloon kids in general probably have it at least mildly. One I know well has had CBT used on them and it does seem to have been beneficial. The uncontrollable moods are a lot more controllable, and focus has improved.

Hope this helps.

 

[anonomog]

<snip>

Believe me, I have learned the hurt and drama around BPD, but this person I really enjoy and would like to continue to have in my life, so not ready to discard them, LOL! Perhaps I am an idiot, but that is my right.

My relationship with someone with BPD was a roller-coaster. At first the intense highs and lows was passionate and exciting and then it simply wore me out. I understand fully not wanting to discard it. There have been times when I have missed the rush. Never knowing if today I was going to be totally loved or totally discarded. It was like the first stages of falling in love, all the time.

The hindsight of years and years made me realise how destructive it was to me on many levels. It felt like I had to share his disorder to participate in his life. Perhaps it also fulfilled the need in me, at that time, to play the role of caretaker, but towards the end I didn't want to spend my life doing that with no rest, ever. My wake up moment started when I tried to picture us growing old together and it contained no reciprocal caring at all, never mind any type of consistency.

Good luck with it.