Christianity

[knn]

In practice, then, how are the two religions different? Well, one is tiny and one is huge. One is young and one is old.

Exactly. And these 2 facts huge+old (vs small+new) change everything. Thus you cannot really compare these religions.

The holy texts of one are available, in their entirety, for free, legally. The holy texts of the other are available, in their entirety, for approximately $300-400k.

The "holy texts" of LRH are far bigger than the entire bible. And noone forces you to buy them.

As mentioned, confessions are free and confidential in one (when they're offered).

Scientology doesn't offer priest-type confessions and Christianity doesn't offer Scientology-type confessions. So the costs are not comparable.

Usually my definition of whether or not someone belongs to a religion is whether or not they self-identify with the religion, especially in western culture. So do 8 million people really consider themselves scientologists?

I understand your logic and I agree, however the membership question is one of the trickiest to answer as I wrote at:
http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=228697#post228697
and at
http://forum.exscn.net/showthread.php?p=237704#post237704

I also recently started to accept the idea that there actually are no religions, just "current cultural religious behaviors", whereas "religion" is a rather "scholarized"/"scientificized" list of features. In other words: Noone is a 100% Christian, thus Christianity doesn't exist, just current behaviors of people who currently call themselves Christians.

Thus I tend to agree 100% with you when you say "If they don't call themselves Scientologists then they aren't" thus there are no 8 million of them.

It is, indeed, possible to compare these two religions. Christianity is a nebulous, immense creature who adherents and practices run the range of possibilities.

Scientology is a small group with a smaller fringe, centered around and continually influenced by the personalities of 2 men (LRH and DM), with a single set of beliefs and policies that, when taken together, lead to suffering and degradation.

But this was exactly the behavior of early Christians. Yes you can compare the Scientology beginning with the Christianity beginning. It was VERY expensive to be in one of the early Christian sects. It was communistically structured and you had to give EVERYTHING you owned to the group.

 

[uniquemand]

I feel I must step in here about this assumption. Most of what I know about Yeshua (Jesus) I learned long before I ever saw a bible.

The difference between true Christianity and all of the other religions is: in all the worlds religions people are trying to get to God, heaven, Nirvana, better place etc...

In Christianity, God is trying to reach humans for us to know him and know his love forever and ever.

This is certainly true for me.

How do you know someone? You get to know them. Yeshua is alive and very real today. The purpose of the bible is to get us to tune into him.
I used to say " there are spiritual christians and textbook christians. So often the textbook Christians are so buried in the bible that they don't realize the God of the living being right next to them.

There is certainly no doubt of his existence. Certainly no doubt of his Majesty and awesomeness.

This can only be experienced by knowing him. Really knowing him, not just reading.

Tell that fucker to get a Twitter account, and I'll be happy to check in with him from time to time. Until then, tell his remote ass I'm sorry, but his "majesty" seems pretty indirect, to me, never having met him.

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Hubbard claimed Scientology was a real religion because it dealt with the spiritual nature of man. This made sense to me when I first read it but as it turned out, the real reason Scientology became a religion was for tax and employment advantages.

These are not mutually exclusive. The tax & employment advantages have been ceded through heavily political lobbying on the part of the "religious". Since we don't have a "state religion" we grant special privileges to those which meet the "critieria".

In the u.s. it is not uncommon for "movements" which can meet the legal definition of a religion to register accordingly precisely to gain access to these legal advantages. The objection would be on a more sound basis if no privileges were accorded to any religious group. Even then there is a legitimately spiritual aspect to scientology whatever LRH or the Co$ may have used it for.


Mark A. Baker

 

[lkwdblds]

I agree but...

These are not mutually exclusive. The tax & employment advantages have been ceded through heavily political lobbying on the part of the "religious". Since we don't have a "state religion" we grant special privileges to those which meet the "critieria".

I agree they are not mutually exclusive and AT THE TIME Sientology was granted its religious exemptions, there was enough spiritual about Scientology to warrant receiving them.

In the u.s. it is not uncommon for "movements" which can meet the legal definition of a religion to register accordingly precisely to gain access to these legal advantages. The objection would be on a more sound basis if no privileges were accorded to any religious group. Even then there is a legitimately spiritual aspect to scientology whatever LRH or the Co$ may have used it for.

I agree that there was a legitimately spiritual apect to Scientology when the exemption was first granted but am not so sure if it would qualify for the exemption today. After all, several countries which formerly granted the exemption are no longer doing so, especially in the European Union.


Mark A. Baker

I agree with your points but while there was much that was spiritual about Scientology back when Hubbard was runing it, the spiritual aspect seems to be on a steep decline. To back this up, in the 70's and early 80's, the main emphasis was to get trained and move up the bridge to OT VIII so that Super Power and still higher OT Levels could be brought online which were promised to be able "to drive people into the Orgs in droves." Speed of delviery was forbidden to be talked about or mentioned in promotions and an "Ideal Org" was an Org wherein service and delivery were superlative and spot on and exchange was in abundance. Furnishings and the building were mentioned as a footnote in that they were to be clean, attractive and everything was to be in good working order.

Nowadays, 31 years after Super Power was given its big send off and tens of millions of donations, which could have gone towards training and processing and moving people up the bridge, were spent on a partially completed building which has been sitting idle for the past 7 or so years with no benefit whatsoever to the Church, the campaign to release OT IX and X which was moving well in the early and mid 90's with the goal of all Orgs reaching old Saint Hill size seeming to be within sight, has disappeared from view. Orgs like Orange County which was Saint Hill size then have drastically shrunk in size. Speed of delivery is pushed very heavily in most of the promo

The big push is off of spiritual pursuits and instead the push is to spend more on MEST, posh buildings rivaling that of the Bellagio Hotel in Las Vegas, with furnishings rivaling those of the shieks of Abu Dhabi or United Arab Emirates.

Most auditing dollars are spent on sec checks or just cycling the same old regulars through various revisions of the old OT Levels, and L's always claiming that the recycle job is either due to some major LRH data which has just been rediscovered or else it is due to some S.P. who has been destroying the tech for years, suddenly being found out.

There is not much if anything left of the spiritual side to the Church of Scientology which was definitely vary visible several decades ago. You probably have a point that in a country such as the USA where religious liberty is very heavily guaranteed, C of S might still qualify for their exemption today, but the trend around the world, outside of the USA, is that C of S's religious exemptions are really being challanged hard and C of S is losing ground in this battle.
Lkwdblds

 

[Mark A. Baker]

I agree with your points but while there was much that was spiritual about Scientology back when Hubbard was runing it, the spiritual aspect seems to be on a steep decline.

I'm not in disagreement with your statements. I merely point out that there is an inherent spirituality implicit in the tech which can be used to justify the establishment of a scientology church.

My personal preference would be to have the existing organization subject to an extensive criminal probe undertaken by the FBI and any difficulties resolved accordingly. Churches can be criminal enterprises too.


Mark A. Baker

 

[La La Lou Lou]

Uniquemand. Pastafarian? you really worship and smoke pasta?

Christians, they have the right to their religion as long as they dont evangelise, and realise they do have a religion based on faith only and that means it is totally outside of logic, and that doesnt make it right. They have to resist doubting their faith, or disaster will stike and through the cracks in the armour reality might just push through.

Mocked up incidents run on my 'holetrack' felt real, sometimes I could feel huge masses connected to fighting on top of a flying saucer, or whatever I had faith that there really was some incident in my hidden track these fuzzy pictures came from. I was told I would run incidents like this and there they were.

I now think they were well imagined.

I also think that the feeling of Jesus coming into your heart might just be the same. Someone suggests it might happen, then it does. Well maybe it didnt, maybe your bloodpump is untouched by mysterious disembodied spirits, that died 2000 years ago in the middleast, and who thought of himself as a good Jew, who never had a ham sandwich, celebrated passover, never saw a church steeple and never dreamed of a Pope, or Bishop for that matter. Oh yes and he never spoke 'american' either.

I dont need faith, I dont need Jesus, or any other holy man or woman, I need to do what I know is right. How do you know it's right? cos it makes a difference, it helps people. I dont think Im going to heaven or would be burned in hell if I was naughty. I dont need bribing. The good dont always win and the bad often do. I dont therefore expect a reward for being good. Not tommorrow or when Im floating on a cloud. (Or just slowly rot which is much more likely).

You can keep your organised religions. All of them. Think for yourself, dont allow anyone to do that for you, especially once youve escaped from a money grabbing cult, where you were so loved by the reg and recruiter, that warm wonderful love. Just like you get from your imam or priest now.

There are good people in churches, there are good muslims too, some wonderful hindus, there were some good sighentologists as well, and there are wonderful helpful and loving atheists. It makes no difference. Be yourself and if you want to be good rather than evil, go for it, you dont need anyones permission or approval, go and do what you feel is ethical.

 

[Searcher Again]

Stay on your soap box! You have expressed some good ideas here. Don't sell yourself short! As to your question about having all the answers and whether this would make a difference in your life, I think the answer is yes!!

.....Thanks for that, I have answers I did not have before.

LRH did figure out a lot of the answers and many people feel they have been helped through his discoveries while many others feel all his tech is garbage. What do you honestly think?

.......His tech is not all garbage, who could it be? Some critics state that he stole this and this from who and who. Well, much of the stolen "tech" works. You can't deny originators' foundings, the Bible did not happen in one day, there is plenty of good "tech" in there also.

and by claiming that he was more than human and did not have a case like the rest of us.

.......KSW right there, he rose above the "Bank".

 

[justaguy]

But this was exactly the behavior of early Christians. Yes you can compare the Scientology beginning with the Christianity beginning. It was VERY expensive to be in one of the early Christian sects. It was communistically structured and you had to give EVERYTHING you owned to the group.

I was comparing modern day christianity to modern day scientology. But if this is how religions start out, with the kind of suffering that scientology inflicts on its followers, then I'd much prefer that there was no such thing as early christianity. I hope that there are religions that manage to get their start doing something besides tormenting their followers.

 

[Operating Wog]

Someone mentioned the "anti-christians" in this post (which I started). to be sure, I'm NOT anti-Christian. I'm not even anti-Scientologist. I think all religions are pretty irrational, but that's part of why people are drawn to them. After leaving Scn and realizing how much I bought into the nonsense, I can't imagine buying into any religion again any more than I could believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy again. But I let my kid put out cookies for Santa, and I let Christians belive their thing and Scios believe their thing. Of course, when laws are broken or people are harmed, that needs to be addressed without any religious protection. But beyond that, any attempt to target, attack or destroy a religion winds up in more injustice and harm.

 

[lkwdblds]

We are in agreement.

I'm not in disagreement with your statements. I merely point out that there is an inherent spirituality implicit in the tech which can be used to justify the establishment of a scientology church.

Your point is well taken.

My personal preference would be to have the existing organization subject to an extensive criminal probe undertaken by the FBI and any difficulties resolved accordingly. Churches can be criminal enterprises too.


Mark A. Baker

We are in agreement on both of your points.
Lkwdblds

 

[lkwdblds]

A rational message.

Someone mentioned the "anti-christians" in this post (which I started). to be sure, I'm NOT anti-Christian. I'm not even anti-Scientologist. I think all religions are pretty irrational, but that's part of why people are drawn to them. After leaving Scn and realizing how much I bought into the nonsense, I can't imagine buying into any religion again any more than I could believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy again. But I let my kid put out cookies for Santa, and I let Christians belive their thing and Scios believe their thing. Of course, when laws are broken or people are harmed, that needs to be addressed without any religious protection. But beyond that, any attempt to target, attack or destroy a religion winds up in more injustice and harm.

Your post is quite rational and consistent. The only difference we have might lies in buying into any religion again. I have been reading and posting heavily on Vinaire's thread, "Oh!God!!". I find Vin to be wise and he is a Hindu. I had some experiience in Zen Buddhism which actually led me into Scientology. I find a great deal of wisdom existing in those religions, what Vin calls the Vedic religions. I feel that it may be possible to obtain the wisdom which one hoped for when joining Scientology without all the bullshit and outrageous costs. These religions do not make demands on you or tell you that you are going to hell if you do not follow them. I like them and would not mind finding out more about them and am doing so.
Lkwdblds

P.S. - Thanks for starting this thread. Keep up the good work!

 

[Mark A. Baker]

Your post is quite rational and consistent. The only difference we have might lies in buying into any religion again. I have been reading and posting heavily on Vinaire's thread, "Oh!God!!". I find Vin to be wise and he is a Hindu. I had some experiience in Zen Buddhism which actually led me into Scientology. I find a great deal of wisdom existing in those religions, what Vin calls the Vedic religions. I feel that it may be possible to obtain the wisdom which one hoped for when joining Scientology without all the bullshit and outrageous costs. These religions do not make demands on you or tell you that you are going to hell if you do not follow them. I like them and would not mind finding out more about them and am doing so.
Lkwdblds

P.S. - Thanks for starting this thread. Keep up the good work!

I find that the bodies of Taoist, Vedic & Buddhist philosophy serve well as complements to the practice of scientology auditing techniques. I'm particularly drawn to the academic Tibetan schools of Mahayana. I find that, for myself, they are well-suited to correct errors and confusions which arise from the logical leaps & lapses frequent in Hubbard's materials.

As an additional benefit I find auditing to be "easier on the knees" than traditional eastern meditation techniques; an important plus now that I'm in my 50's.


Mark A. Baker

 

[uniquemand]

Well put, Mark. Easy on the knees (and the wallet, just find a good co-auditor and go). Argument about Upper Level stuff, IMO, is fun, but it is really irrelevant, because most people never complete their Grade 0, HRD and NED.

 

[xguardian]

Just ran across this definition:

"Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree."

Xemu doesn't sound so bad now.

How about the allegory that Adam and Eve represent the conscious and unconcious mind. That the serpent represented 'evil'...and entrapped Eve (reactive/unconcious mind) into agreement w/ evil's insanity (thus affecting concious abberation) .Biblical Prophesies by The Creator speaking through holy men, fortold that He himself would manifest in the flesh and redeem his creation from their own folly and ignorance by showing us that the way of spiritual freedom is when we die to selfish greed and get back into the divine plan of creating with the Creator instead of destroying with the destroyer. And that the multitude of these prophesies came true against all odds and contrary to our finite and puny infected understanding. And that the destroyer has attempted to pollute the truth of this with every facsimile and squirelled religion on the planet because even our science proves the creation as recorded in Genisis, happened as it had to the order of evolutionary sequence. And that if we would let God be God and we stop trying to play God, like lucifer tries to be God, he will lead us in the way to be free! For free! Acts 2:1-39 Or you can believe the unbelievable! That this incredible complex and amazing Universe in the three dimensions we confine ourselves to ...but know there are a myriad of spiritual planes...all came from nothing, and when we die...we cease to exist?
That's worse than coming from apes...coming 'from'.. means....there must be a source! read the Bible before you discount it. You can even order one online, and they won't even try to sell you a BRIDGE!

 

[Telepathetic]

Doesn't sound so bad now?

I guess by that logic if a man goes to prison and gets raped by 'Bubba' on night one.... and again by another 'Bubba' on night two... then 'Bubba 1' wouldn't seem so awful then! Very finely tuned (il) logic.

More like xenu is it's own uniquely insulting and idiotic story based on a lunatic drug addicts imagination; kept in secret and used to exploit people out of hundreds of thousands of dollars... and to top it off one must suffer in silence the very obvious fact that after completing the steps prescribed they do no have any special powers or state of ability.

There's are significant differences between the various religious indoctrination's and the con played upon people by them. As a package offered by the Co$... Scientology is one of the worst at present time.

You convinced me. I was ready to agree that Christianity was by far a cheesier story...until I read your "Bubba" analogy!

TP

 

[Mystic]

In Tibet, particularly when Tibet was Tibet, one-third of what is taught to school children is meditation.

 

[Pooks]

Scary Shit.

This video on Jesus Camp, makes the Scn indoc look mild.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac

 

[xguardian]

In Tibet, particularly when Tibet was Tibet, one-third of what is taught to school children is meditation.

Interesting that one third of Man is the Soul...where the mind, will, and emotions are centered. We are Body-Soul-spirit. All of our early Universities were originally started as seminararian with emphasis on spiritual life, even though it was more form than substance, it's roots in the Judao/Christian schools BC and AD until taken over by state and vested $ intersts began it's spiritual decline.

Ritual, liturgy with it's pagentry and pompous religiosity became the norm. Early christianity and jewish mystical practices like the "Essenes" and "miracle working" desciples were quashed, and banned as 'heretical' because they offered spiritual teachings with "no strings or cost' attached.

Todays state sponsored equivalent, is PC (politically correct) and revisionist curriculum to maintain the status quo of 'dumbed down...dependant & homongenized society they have engineered.