Continuing to "unravel" (sorry- longish)

[Good twin]

I first left mostly because I became certain that I would never make it to OT.
Then I slowly realized that I had no desire to go OT.
I had to look at why I felt this way after devoting over thirty years to attaining just that for myself and others.
I recall in the early years explaining (justifying) that the reason that I chose to be a Scietologist is "because it works".
Later it just became "what I do" and "who I am". (note no havingness - LOL)
I started researching other people's experiences and became especially interested in the critics viewpoints.
I realized that the Scientology that I was working for was not the Scientology that I wanted or originally intended to help create.
I made a very determined decision to align the data I found only to experiences that I had personally observed. I considered that this may be a limited approach, but after all it was my journey.
It took awhile to even consider the possibility of "unworkability" of Scientology. Afterall, I had spent decades challenging every instance of unworkability.
This I have come to realize pitted us against each other within the group.
After just a few short weeks I am amazed to discover that I can't find a single example of Scientology actually working the way it was presented or "promised"
Examples:
I have never met anyone who fits the DMSMH definition of "clear"
Prior to Scientology I did not wear glasses or have any serious illnesses of any kind. After thirty years of applying and experiencing Scientology, I wear bifocals and have two incurable medical conditions. Interestingly enough these two illnesses sit a two different positions on the Chart of human evaluation which per LRH is constant and never contradictory.
Every person I have ever known throughout their history in Scientology still had the same "ruin" as when they came in. This holds true for ALL case states currently available. The difference is each of these individuals has accepted their "ruin" and no longer considers it debilitating.
I addressed two marriages with "standard" marriage handling - both EPing in divorce.

I am amazed at how simple life has become now that I am not trying to solve it. I am free to experience and simply enjoy. I can admit that my medication controls my medical condition and not worry that I am "damaging" my case by trying to stay alive and productive.
I also can admit that I don't have all the answers and I can benefit from other points of view.
I enjoy people and don't have to be suspicious of opinions.
I can be critical of whatever I please and not constantly introvert.
I may not be totally free, but I am definitely getting freer every day.
Thank you ALL for your comments and suggestions and for sharing yourselves. It is truly a gift.
Good Twin

 

[Wisened One]

You have brought up some VERY good points, and I was agreeing with every single one of them!

Isn't it more relaxing now to really breathe deeply into your life, and ENJOY it without feeling (or feeling less and less) guilt?

I'm so glad I found ESMB and the kindess of all of you.

I'm realizing more and more every hour of every day....

And it's making a difference reading all your realizations, too.
I really enjoy your posts, good twin. You articulate your views (and echo what I feel and see) so much better than I.

Wisened One

 

[nw2394]

Every person I have ever known throughout their history in Scientology still had the same "ruin" as when they came in. This holds true for ALL case states currently available. The difference is each of these individuals has accepted their "ruin" and no longer considers it debilitating.

You met one now Handled my "ruin" on HRD. It is still handled to this day, a quarter of a century later.

Nick

 

[Good twin]

Wow. Way to go! I am truly happy to hear that. I would love to hear specifics. I have seen people have lots of wins and love that part of Scn, but sadly my own experience is that the people who I have known amend there ruin to match their gains. Please tell me more of your story from when you were in.

 

[nw2394]

Wow. Way to go! I am truly happy to hear that. I would love to hear specifics. I have seen people have lots of wins and love that part of Scn, but sadly my own experience is that the people who I have known amend there ruin to match their gains. Please tell me more of your story from when you were in.

Well, to understand it all you'd have to understand me as a case - which I seriously don't have the time to write down now. But the upshot of it was as a young man I used to come on too strong to members of the opposite sex - it used to repel them. It wasn't that I was particularly a "get your knickers off creep" at all - I wanted to get married. But if I went anywhere near a woman in that way you could say that I had a "you're going to be my wife" 'tractor beam' aimed at them. It was out of control and it used to put them off. It was a real problem - I wanted a 2D - I wanted a decent, proper 2D in fact - but the girls couldn't cope with it. It was terrible and made my life a misery. HRD cured me of the 'tractor beam'. I got married shortly after doing that rundown and am still happily married to this day.

Nick

 

[lrnobs]

Every person I have ever known throughout their history in Scientology still had the same "ruin" as when they came in.

I never had a ruin. I was looking for the truth about life and I wanted the world to be without war, crime, disease, and insanity. I also believed that the original gradation chart was real. It gradually became clear to me that many things were greatly exaggerated.

People were helped. I was helped in several ways. Meditation helped me. Creative visualization helped me. Working for a cause from my good heart helped me. Having friends helped me. At the time, this was all just called Scientology.

Do now what brings you joy and growth. And now do it again. And now do it again. Do it in this moment and every moment.

 

[Good twin]

Thank you both. This really helps. I was an HRD auditor. I had lots of fun running it and the PCs did change. I am happy to hear your gains were lasting. You guys have an extremely calming effect on me. I guess it takes time.

 

[Div6]

<snip>
I am amazed at how simple life has become now that I am not trying to solve it. I am free to experience and simply enjoy.
<snip>

Good Twin

Good twin,

There can be no case gain in the presence of a PTP.
The "problem" with CoS is that it IS a GPM, and it DOES oppterm "life" via the public. There is way more tech in CoS than that, but it sure seems to get glossed over, twisted, not-ised, mis-applied, etc. It seems that the idea of "helping people" has been submerged into "auditing hours", and "certs".

I prefer to just help people.


Welcome to life.

 

[Good twin]

Div 6,



Thank you!
Good Twin

 

[Zinjifar]

Good twin,

There can be no case gain in the presence of a PTP.

This is just a small part of your whole statement, but, for me, it's one of those nagging 'certainties' in Scientology that seems to be accepted blindly by Scientologists (a stable datum) but seems to be contradicted by 'reality'.

I think we can all agree on what a PTP (present time problem) is; it could be a lot of things. And 'case gain' at the very least has symptomatic similarities with 'good' things for people as a whole, but, for a non-scientologist (me) it's obvious that 'good things' of a kind that would be understood by a Scientologist as 'case gain' *do* happen despite and sometimes *because* of 'present time problems'.

So, here we have an 'absolute' statement that flies in the face of fact. Which says to me that there is something fundamentally wrong with the Scientology concept of 'case'.

And, that's one hell of a fundamental problem with Scientology itself.

Zinj

 

[Div6]

Zinj,

As a Master of Inval and Eval, I'm afraid this is one of your weaker attempts.
I would need a specific example of what you mean before I could even begin to parse out the "significance".

My point is simply this, by staticising everything, and then making the game "stats" you create a "wrong target" and go into a "games condition" with the public. Might be appropriate for cannibals, but not for something truly "humanitarian"....
Scientology creates overt products just to count "stats". The PTP is being RPF'ed and Beans abd Rice in the SO...they will never change until they get rid of that degrading operating basis.

So please, an example of what you mean...

 

[Giuseppe]

There can be no case gain in the presence of a PTP.

This is exactly why Giuseppe never made any case-gain. In the SO and being on staff IS THE PTP!

Staff members who are abused regularly can't make any real case gain until they handle that PTP.

 

[lrnobs]

This is just a small part of your whole statement, but, for me, it's one of those nagging 'certainties' in Scientology that seems to be accepted blindly by Scientologists (a stable datum) but seems to be contradicted by 'reality'.

I think we can all agree on what a PTP (present time problem) is; it could be a lot of things. And 'case gain' at the very least has symptomatic similarities with 'good' things for people as a whole, but, for a non-scientologist (me) it's obvious that 'good things' of a kind that would be understood by a Scientologist as 'case gain' *do* happen despite and sometimes *because* of 'present time problems'.

So, here we have an 'absolute' statement that flies in the face of fact. Which says to me that there is something fundamentally wrong with the Scientology concept of 'case'.

And, that's one hell of a fundamental problem with Scientology itself.

Zinj

It comes down to Maslows pyramid
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/maslow_pyramid.html
that predates Scientology.

If one has immediate physiological and safety needs, ones attention will not be there for higher level pursuits.

When one is much higher on the pyramid their PTPs are often just imagined, and you find people worrying about having their Lexus repossessed where they may have to go back to driving a Chevy, or maybe they have to switch their dog to a different dog psychologist as Rover doesn't seem to be making enough case gain, quick enough to be more inline with their sense of urgency. :wink2:

 

[Dulloldfart]

It comes down to Maslows pyramid
http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/psychology/maslow_pyramid.html
that predates Scientology.

If one has immediate physiological and safety needs, ones attention will not be there for higher level pursuits.

What about things like getting restimmed over grandmother's death all the time? Where does that fit in?

Paul

 

[lrnobs]

What about things like getting restimmed over grandmother's death all the time? Where does that fit in?

Paul

I would think that would be the thing to be addressed in some type of counseling session.

If someones attention is obsessed with images of grandma and with images of the threatening gang bangers living next door then they really need to move before they can spend time grieving grandmother's death.

If obsessive thoughts about grandma is leading them to lose their job, their house, their family well then they better get some help before their life really crumbles. Before it really crumbles is the time where they should reach for help.

 

[Dulloldfart]

More generally, where do things that trouble normal people fit on that pyramid? Not something that would count as self-actualization--just things that people have attention on that get addressed in Life Repair or Dianetics or Grades?

Paul

 

[lrnobs]

More generally, where do things that trouble normal people fit on that pyramid? Not something that would count as self-actualization--just things that people have attention on that get addressed in Life Repair or Dianetics or Grades?

Paul

I reviewed what is addressed on these (overwhelm, communication, problems, upsets, fixed conditions) and I think that more or less these would be covered under the umbrella of "daily life skills".

Maslow's "Needs" pyramid was not built with the intent to be compared to Hubbard's somewhat arbitrary gradation chart. I am not Maslow, nor do I play him on TV, but I can see these daily life skills lying throughout the three upper levels of the pyramid.

 

[Wisened One]

I've had plenty of good auditing and wins from them that did help some of my ruins.

But regarding my confidence-ruin?

About a year or more ago, hubby and I read 'A New Earth' by Eckhart Tolle

WHILE we were still reading the book, unexpected changes started happening within and outside of us

We both felt very serene, tranquil, yet less shy, deeply happier. people started reacting differently to us (in a good way)...

(we then got the audio cd's which were even better and still had the same effect even after repeated listenings...).

Hmmmm.

Gee, one book did that (and the win has stayed to this very day, btw)...

I honestly didn't mean to plug this book nor hijack this thread, was just sharing what happened while and after reading it.

All the TR's, and courses never handled this particular ruin of mine. not quite so long-lasting, anyway.

Wisened One

 

[Dulloldfart]

I reviewed what is addressed on these (overwhelm, communication, problems, upsets, fixed conditions) and I think that more or less these would be covered under the umbrella of "daily life skills".

Thank you for answering my question.

My opinion is that he overlooked them.

Paul

 

[thetanic]

Later it just became "what I do" and "who I am". (note no havingness - LOL)

Wow, in going back to read your threads -- I totally get what you mean, and in fact, that's the problem I'm working on.

In the immortal words of Homer Simpson: Doh!

It's one of the interesting things about all the "must have" flows the CoS runs on people. We "must have" your money. You "must have" this rundown.

Of course, the other flow to that is "can't have."