Sindy
Crusader
Sorry, duplicate
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Devotion & prejudice - any difference?
- Thread starter Emma
- Start date
Sorry, duplicate
Sindy
Crusader
This is a great post. I would agree with this and in addition, you can also get those that have had no experience with Marty at all, who you might think would be more emotionally detached, but who are not at all. At least most of the time, we still, at the end of the day, want the C of S to stop abusing people and that we can agree on, at the very least.
Petey C
Silver Meritorious Patron
Damn, I was afraid someone was gonna ask me that, Petey C.
OK...here’s my “Readers Digest Version”:
The general class of the disease is ologies, isms, anities and ocracy’s. The pathology of this particular disease is to be or find or follow, "The One", "The Way" and/or "'IT'".
This disease is, in effect, a slow burn predator.
In the particular form of the disease I was speaking of in my post, a very insidious, vigorous and pernicious disease organism has mutated into millions and millions of infective word spores. Previously infected disease carrying and transmitting hosts work rapidly and ceaselessly to come in proximity prospective hosts. Once the prospective host is in contact with disease carrying hosts these transmitters work rapidly as a team to spread as many of the word spores all over the prospective host, hoping that one or several of the spores will be ingested and lead to infection. At the same time, the infected transmitters also work intently and methodically to spread particular spores that have proved to be particularly infectious and to find the particular word spores, out of the millions, that the prospective host will willingly and comfortably ingest. The most certain sign to the carriers that the prospective host has contracted the disease is a urge and desire on the part of the newly infected to infect others and bring prospective hosts to the carriers “hive”, if you will.
Face
Good one, Face. In some cases the disease acts like the Ebola virus and generally kills its host. In some cases the disease attacks the person's immune system and makes them very ill for a while. In other cases people can get a little dose of the disease and then effectively are inoculated and therefore immune.
Is there a cure for this disease??
lotus
stubborn rebel sheep!
This is a very interesting question and thread
Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
As an individual occasionally accused of 'arrogance' towards others on this board, I fail to see how the idea that anyone has a presumptive right or responsibility to supply 'tough love' to another individual on a message board can be anything but supremely arrogant.
Any 'tough love' required by specific circumstances can be, and typically is, supplied by the moderators.
It's a message board for the free & civil exchange of ideas. It is not a Red Army Rehabilitation Camp.
Mark A. Baker
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"Most" perhaps, but not all.There are some folks that will never change their mind about anything once they've publicly stated their opinion, because their self image is too tied up in being right and sticking to their theories.
I told you I was trouble
Suspended animation
As an individual occasionally accused of 'arrogance' towards others on this board, I fail to see how the idea that anyone has a presumptive right or responsibility to supply 'tough love' to another individual on a message board can be anything but supremely arrogant.
Any 'tough love' required by specific circumstances can be, and typically is, supplied by the moderators.
It's a message board for the free & civil exchange of ideas. It is not a Red Army Rehabilitation Camp.
Mark A. Baker
When a person is still a scientologist they are never going to hear the truth about scientology/orgs/hubbard/COB ... they just aren't. To 'enlighten' them (and invalidate cultic ramblings they may still be throwing about) on an Ex scientology message board that they have chosen to join, could be seen as 'tough love' but it has saved many, many people from the insanity that is scientology, but only if they are ready IMO.
HelluvaHoax!
Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
This may be a helpful analogy...
Let's take a person just learning to drive an automobile. They are very unskilled and inexperienced in the event something unexpected happens while they are driving.
Let's say that they are cruising along an icy country road in the dead of winter. A squirrel darts out in front of them. They apply the brakes and the car begins to swerve left (towards oncoming traffic) on the icy road.What to do?
There are various choices. Some of them are dead wrong.
Jamming down harder on the brakes would exaggerate the skidding.
Turning the wheel hard to the right would send the car into an uncontrolled tailspin.
There are many INTUITIVE actions a driver might instinctively take to avoid a collision.
Being a novice driver, they would STRONGLY REACT and OVERCOMPENSATE. Just the wrong thing to do.
Their unskilled reaction to the emergency would put them in harms way.
An experienced driver would have the smarts & skills to use driving techniques that are quite counter-intuitive, but effective (e.g. turn the steering wheel in the direction of the swerve--until gaining control, at which time one can steer to safety)
Here's what I see on the fascinating question that Emma posed.
Like our neophyte driver, most people are dreadfully unskilled and inexperienced to handle emergencies and crises in life. There is no place that teaches these types of skill. People are just sorta "out there on their own" left to fend for themselves. When life surprises them, they respond instinctively to the threat. How they react often has nothing whatsoever to do with what they are trying to accomplish. It has the opposite effect they are intending, usually.
Scientology is a classic example of such amateurish bumbling, reacting to flaps by knee-jerk "solutions" which make things infinitely worse. They are affectionately known as "footbullets". In medicine they are called "iatrogenic" disease (disease caused by the "cure")
When people become too devoted or too prejudiced, they are simply trying to fix a problem that they have no idea how to fix. The devotion and the prejudice is the easiest, most accessible solution they could come up with, so they really go to town trying to make it work.
By the way, Scientology is in a ferocious tailspin and they are turning the steering wheel with all their might in the opposite (wrong) direction. Ooops!
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Mark A. Baker
Sponsor
If they are on the board they are open to communication and the ideas of others. People's understanding moves naturally at their own pace.
Many of the people here constantly complain about the understanding enforced on them by the church while they were "in". I fail to see how returning that favor to others who may be exploring their options is any different much less 'better'.
State facts. Ask questions. Be civil.
Save the 'tough love' for consensual bdsm.
Mark A. Baker
HelluvaHoax!
Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
degraded being
Sponsor
I was only taking part in a rhetorical game based on posts I had written and Mark Baker had responded to. The point being inferred was that I - and I assume others would never bother or want to mention anything that Hitler had done that was considered positive.
I told you I was trouble
Suspended animation
It is not even close to being the same thing, here we are not peddling anyone's 'eternity' ... so they are absolutely free to tell us to STFU and not be forever doomed by the threats of the cult.
I agree ... but it could be seen as 'tough love' to state the facts because the facts regarding scientology are not very palatable ... though possibly only a scientologist would see it that way.
degraded being
Sponsor
On your first paragrah, Synthia true. On your second paragraph I completely accept
what you say, and how it wasn't a question asked from a haughty place. However I read it as a question that seemed as though it was haughty. My reaction was "Why
bother to ask anyone that question unless (in the context) it is to pass judgement?"
Can't always be perfect with communication online
You didn't - and neither did I.
Nor did I say anything about "coercing" anybody to think anything. I don't think you did either.
(The strawman arguments are getting a good run today.)
All I asked was for some opinions on why people get stuck in their thinking and whether devotion & prejudice are essentially the same thing.
I'm surprised at some of the reactions on this thread. Touchy subject this "black & white thinking".
No you didn't say anything about "coercing" anybody Emma. You did put people in 2 camps though regarding Marty. For and against. It might be a "touchy subject" because it reduces a general population (or group) of people to either "this" or "that" extreme. I think even Marty supporters probably have opinions that are not enitrely "pro" which they do not put up for public viewing.
Vittorio
Patron Meritorious
I wanted to add to this that both Marty and Gerry represent the opposite end of the extreme's and it seems that neither will let go of their long held viewpoints. Gerry is positioning himself as an enemy of the overal Independent movement here, not the other way round. Most couldn't give a fig about Gerry Armstrong or keeping that gag order in place. Gerry realises that if the people responsible for keeping his gag order in place leave the Church and call themselves 'Independents' then they may continue to inhibit his free speech. By including the RO and all other people Gerry is just setting himself up as an enemy to all these people who otherwise couldn't give a damn and may only find himself being attacked by them if he attacks them enough. Fair enough, this court order against Gerry may be instigated by Rathbun if he feels it neccessary. I don't see why people at both ends cannot move on with their lives. It's almost as if Gerry feels a need to be attacked all the time and that Marty must always be a leader of a group in battle mode.
I know Gerry reads here, he says as much in the video. I feel that neither have really left the Scientology bubble or 'us against the world mentality'.
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Lermanet_com
Gold Meritorious Patron
A brilliant lawyer once remarked that:
"it is as important to ask the right question.....
as it is to know the the right answer"
Lermanet_com
Gold Meritorious Patron
Perhaps there is another explanation rather than a 'flaw'..
Most everyone's first experience of love, is being held as a baby, and cared for, attended to, as a child, being told what one wants to hear and even being scolded for transgressions.
A 20th century pioneer of hypnosis, George Estabrooks stated in 1943: "It has always been the writers contention that Hitler is the greatest hypnotist of our day"
Stalin also, though he used mass hypnosis, it was Bechterev's hypnosis through conditioning that he depended upon.
Pol Plot I do not know much about except the commonality with Stalin and Hitler, of many dead bodies in his wake.
It is a published technique of a hypnotic operator (see note) to use the 'valence' (if you will tolerate a scientology key word), of a parent, scolding a child who does not do or say what is intended by the operator, as a means to induce a state of suggestibility, covertly.
Most everyone loves their parents. Most everyone will experience similar reverence for an operator that mimics their parents, mimics the attention, mimics the belonging to a group of like minded individuals (a surrogate family - same hard wiring..but this new family is composed of those who have already beein tricked into agreeing with the opinions of the operator!). Male operators will use the father identity. Female operators will use the mother's identity. Each will tell us what a lucky, smart and clever person we are for understanding what we have been told, including during the scoldings! And they will point to other members of our new family who already agree with the operator's theme as 'evidence'!
This adoration is hard wired into or minds. Those that tap this conditioned reflex covertly, are doing so with only their own selfish agenda in mind. They want you to believe their lies!!
Loving one's parents is not a 'flaw'.
Not understanding the technique being used upon thee is not a flaw, it is merely an ignorance.
George Estabrooks (note) stressed that the ONLY defense against covert mental manipulations was to understand the techniques being used to manipulate what you believe.
Hitler successfully used this technique, Germany became the fatherland, he became the surrogate father for millions, so did Hubbard, and so do all successful covert manipulators.
As it is not a flaw to love one's parents, it is also not a 'flaw' to be manipulated using this technique by an unscrupulous operator, because unless you understand this material, it works!
Arnie Lerma
note: George Estabrooks was a famous pioneer in military covert hypnosis, and see "how to become an expert operator" in my sig line, 30 meg, images of a small booklet published in the 30's that I was told was the booklet that Hubbard first read that started him out with the tools to eventually become a major cult leader in the world. Also see a new bio I placed on my profile page here on ESMB
more note: those who have been repetitively subjected to this technique, as in scientology, will tend to be more easily manipulated using the same style under a different setting, because the new operator, using the same style, gains an advantage by drawing upon the previously installed conditioned reflex!!
Hubbard states repetitively that he is 'source'... but are not your own parents your true and actual 'source'?
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afaceinthecrowd
Gold Meritorious Patron
I just don’t think Prejudice vs. Devotion is a simple black or white issue. I’m learning much from all the fine posts that have been put up. I think that Dialogue is an effective way to lessen Prejudice and temper Devotion. I just respectfully disagree with your characterization of Gerry in your examples for this discussion.
My understanding is that Gerry had walked away from it all after his settlement with the Cof$ but the Cof$ wouldn’t let it rest. IIRC, he discusses that in the recent Berlin Video. That, coupled with the sour taste he had in his mouth re: the “Settlement”, led him to strap on his helmet again and come back on the field.
I, personally, don’t see Armstrong as an extremist. I see Gerry as a very gutsy, smart and sincere guy that accidentally wound up in extreme circumstances. Gerry got hurt real, real bad and resigned himself to having the rest of his life embroiled off and on with the fallout of those fateful years he spent doing his best to help Omar Garrison write the definitive Biography of a man he loved and admired. It wasn’t Gerry’s fault that he did such a meticulous and first class job of Archivist that the suppressed and hidden true facts of El Ron’s past were there, in all the documentation he had assembled and catalogued. Gerry tried in vain to get the Cof$ and El Ron to just “bite the bullet” right there and get it over with and go on from there. At that point he was still very much a Scientologist.
The Cof$ cannot let sleeping dogs lie…it feeds off of conflict, “wars” and fighting enemies. It learned with the Portland Case, etc that campaigns against a labeled "enemy and imminent danger" were a new source of direct income and added revenue from “Enemy Obliteration” to its ongoing Business Model and revenue base.
I admit that I am biased re: Gerry. Not only have I read all of his story and stories about his story, I knew Gerry personally on the Apollo and he is a sure enough very bright, decent and fine feller. He is also very determined, diligent and detail oriented person…that’s how he wound up “getting the goods” on El Ron, even though that was not what he set out to do. AFAIK Gerry hasn’t attacked anyone. Gerry responds to the attacks, threats, lies, malicious innuendo and allegations (hallmarks of Scn) that have needlessly come from the Cof$ over decades and now, more recently, from Marty and his Merry Band of Indy’s.
Face
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RogerB
Crusader
You didn't - and neither did I.
Nor did I say anything about "coercing" anybody to think anything. I don't think you did either.
(The strawman arguments are getting a good run today.)
All I asked was for some opinions on why people get stuck in their thinking and whether devotion & prejudice are essentially the same thing.
I'm surprised at some of the reactions on this thread. Touchy subject this "black & white thinking".
At the risk of offending anyone, or someone or other,
I'll answer your request for an opinion 
And for the simpletons of the universe, I'll keep it simple
Prejudice is the idiot's expression of the sane person's devotion.
So to put it in more polite terms
Devotion is a rational person's knowing pursuit of a worthwhile, whereas prejudice is the decent down into compulsion and unthinking execution of the same force either for or against that which a rational person would knowingly choose to pursue or avoid.They are shades of the same spiritual power or force: one knowing, the other gradiently unknowing.
R
RogerB
Crusader
Good questions: good thinking, Emma.
I'd say they are the same "force" of spirit, and you are correct to view them as being manifestations at different emotional levels.
It's also easily expressed and seen that low emotional states/levels are where there is fixidity, negativity and irrational compulsion. Whereas at higher emotional levels there is rational analysis and aware response.
Personally, I wouldn't view them both as "extremes" . . . devotion is a knowing pursuit of things like duty or a purpose, and is healthy.
Whereas fanaticism and prejudice is expressed by those often not operating on their own deliberation based on rational analysis and choice. Many prejudiced and fanatical people are actually operating on the (uninspected) data/viewpoints of another.
And we humans, it seems, all have shades of gray of these two operating levels, though, I'd like to say that many here on ESMB are more in the lighter vein of operating on their own truths and with decent rationale.
Rog
The Anabaptist Jacques
Crusader
Emma,
I'm guessing you think and behave differently than you did when you were in the Church.
I know I am; and I think a lot of people on this board are too.
But Marty doesn't seem to be.
Marty used his energy and creativity to harm people while he was a part of the Church.
He can't get away with that kind of harm now, because he isn't protected by the Church. But what he can get away he he tries to get away with.
I'm not prejudging Marty because of what he did in the past; I'm judging him based on what he continues to do.
Yes, people have their prejudices and devotions.
But in the case of most criticism of Marty it comes down to the only change he has displayed is that he no longer wears the Sea Org uniform; but he still wears the mindset.
The Anabaptist Jacques