Do you think Scientology will ever get better?
- Thread starter Julian100
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Gadfly
Crusader
No, I do not think that the official Church of Scientology will ever change - not for the better anyway, and not out of free choice. They might be FORCED to change some of their ways in certain countries if and when certain government actions demand that they do.
The entire Scientology edifice is built on a convoluted bundle of MANY LRH references. THAT is what keeps it "the same" and mostly unchanging. Hubbard seems to have very much intended for it to be unwilling and unable to change. It certainly cannot sensibly "evolve" with Hubby Dub's strict KSW approach to the subject and organization. It is a very RIGID system.
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Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
I think CofS (Church of Scn) is a losing proposition. To really do better, they'd have to not only ditch Miscavige and cronies but would have to be willing to take a very very hard no flinching look at certain policies that are abusive or which lead to abuses. This would mean, IMO, a complete restructure of the very way the org boards and procedures are set up.
Forget it. If people want to study Scn they can do it outside CofS.
Forget it. If people want to study Scn they can do it outside CofS.
HelluvaHoax!
Platinum Meritorious Sponsor with bells on
I don't want to give you verbal data, but you can look it up in the book chapter named: "THE THOUSAND YEAR REICH"
Out-Ethics
Patron Meritorious
The problem is that it is built on a foundation of lies so the question becomes can you change that into a truth and the answer is no. It is what it is. Even if it changed I don't see that I would ever want to do any more services there. Why would I if the OT levels don't work? I can see the CoS having a revolt within but that just means someone else will be in charge of the lies. It will continue to shrink in size and that would be people not their buildings which one day may more of those than actual Scientologists.
hartley
Patron with Honors
Do we know what is going to happen? No. Anyone who thinks they do is deluding themselves, this is a unique situation.
If you want a crystal ball prediction, I think the CoS will start to fall apart structurally sooner rather than later, with Orgs declaring that they are no longer willing to send money uplines to pay for DM's crazy schemes. They don't want the grand but empty buildings, the appallingly self-destructive PR, the constant lying. The whole world is laughing at them, and they no longer believe this is caused by evil psychs.
After that... the two sides might destroy each other, two rival Churches might emerge, anything could happen.
uniquemand
Unbeliever
I think that there will be a Scientology FreeZone or Independent Scientologists for a long time, perhaps similar to something like other minor occult traditions, where family and friends teach it to family and friends. However, I think that the "Church of Scientology" is doomed, because they are practicing psychology (medicine) without a license. I think they will continue to exist as they are, now, until they start to hemmhorrage money so severely that continuing as a corporation becomes impossible. After that, I would expect those of us who are aware of the abuse INHERENT in the system to prevent it from ever reincorporating, or where that is impossible, to perform a watchdog function on them such that they are eventually put out of business.
Gadfly
Crusader
That would be fine with me, and probably "safe" for people of the world too.
Scientology's big weakness is its emphasis on Profits rather than Prophets.
To be a sucessful religion, you just gotta have your share of Prophets.
A good rule of thumb; If you got good Prophets, the Profits will
follow.
Take the Jews for example...lots and lots of OT prophets.
Christians too. Christian's have the ultimate...God incarnate
coming down and giving the word. Yet they still need interpreters,
translators as it were, of the Holy Word.
Thge Jews have their bearded Rabbis...squinting over their
Torahs for hour upon hour...gleaning out the nuances of
the Holy Writ.
Christians have their Theologians. The RCC has the Pope.
Direct contact with the Most High...speaking and writing
with infailliable truth when doing so "Ex Cathedra".
The Muslims have their Immams, lots of them. Not only
memorizing the Koran word for word, but gleaning every
possible shade of Truth from its ancient pages.
The Tibetans have their reincarnating Dalai Lhama. They've
got the Prophet problem covered.
Then we have scientology. Since the Most High EL Ron has
"dropped the body"; who's around to interpret the sacred
scribblings? David Miscaviage? Would you buy a used
car from DM; let alone trust him with the fate of your
immortal soul?
No, scientology needs a more convincing prophet than
DM. No change in the cult as long as its all about
Profits rather than Prophets. Scientology has a Profit problem.
Scientology has a Prophet problem.
To be a sucessful religion, you just gotta have your share of Prophets.
A good rule of thumb; If you got good Prophets, the Profits will
follow.
Take the Jews for example...lots and lots of OT prophets.
Christians too. Christian's have the ultimate...God incarnate
coming down and giving the word. Yet they still need interpreters,
translators as it were, of the Holy Word.
Thge Jews have their bearded Rabbis...squinting over their
Torahs for hour upon hour...gleaning out the nuances of
the Holy Writ.
Christians have their Theologians. The RCC has the Pope.
Direct contact with the Most High...speaking and writing
with infailliable truth when doing so "Ex Cathedra".
The Muslims have their Immams, lots of them. Not only
memorizing the Koran word for word, but gleaning every
possible shade of Truth from its ancient pages.
The Tibetans have their reincarnating Dalai Lhama. They've
got the Prophet problem covered.
Then we have scientology. Since the Most High EL Ron has
"dropped the body"; who's around to interpret the sacred
scribblings? David Miscaviage? Would you buy a used
car from DM; let alone trust him with the fate of your
immortal soul?
No, scientology needs a more convincing prophet than
DM. No change in the cult as long as its all about
Profits rather than Prophets. Scientology has a Profit problem.
Scientology has a Prophet problem.
Searcher Again
Patron
I certainly hope it does.
Apparently with all the revisions that have gone on all these years there seems to be an attempt at some sort of change.
I know it's re-mixing the same ol recipe but now that the "guru" is gone there is hope.
I can see the day when it's found that the people who put together the "new" basics books package are found to have MUs or some such thing.
Who knows if it will get better, time will tell.
Apparently with all the revisions that have gone on all these years there seems to be an attempt at some sort of change.
I know it's re-mixing the same ol recipe but now that the "guru" is gone there is hope.
I can see the day when it's found that the people who put together the "new" basics books package are found to have MUs or some such thing.
Who knows if it will get better, time will tell.
Secrete Squirrel
Patron
Who knows
Maybe it will go on in some other form. I don't see management refusing to send money to DM. I see it slowly blowing off the lines until there is no one left to run the place. Maybe Tom Cruise and other rich Sci will then step in and bail them out. Then it will regroup in some other form. It will shrink down to LA and Clearwater and then disappear completely. By the way, when I was stationed in Italy I went to the address of a couple of orgs and found the buildings abandoned. The church still lists them on the website though.
Maybe it will go on in some other form. I don't see management refusing to send money to DM. I see it slowly blowing off the lines until there is no one left to run the place. Maybe Tom Cruise and other rich Sci will then step in and bail them out. Then it will regroup in some other form. It will shrink down to LA and Clearwater and then disappear completely. By the way, when I was stationed in Italy I went to the address of a couple of orgs and found the buildings abandoned. The church still lists them on the website though.
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
It's also been my observation that quite a few people who've taken courses and whatnot have gone on to inculcate Scn concepts and tenets in their own new age practices, often without making mention of Scn or Dianetics or Hubbard. I have no problem with that, of course, but I think that's one other way in which Scn as an ology will go on...piecemeal, here and there, information.
Truth is truth.
Truth is truth.
TalleyWhacker
Patron with Honors
I think we're seeing history repeat itself--religion wise.
The Cof$ will continue, probably reformed enough to avoid being legislatively or financially wiped out.
They'll keep on with a different "pope" after DM and the pedulum will continue to swing with regard to management practices.
And you'll have the guys like Rathbun, and he would be an excellent candidate for this, organizing their own "protestant" version of a church.
And you'll have the Freezoners, much like many of today's Christians who consider themselves Christian but won't have any formal ties with a church.
And life will go on.
BTW: I think it would be legally fascinating if the "Protestant" version was formally created. Part of that evolution would be a dispute and some sort of resolution over the "Copyrights and Scriptures".
How can scriptures of a religion be copyrighted? By its very nature, a religion is in the public domain, right? I think a judge would look at the Cof$ and say, "Well, if you're really a religion and these really are scriptures then they are withiin the public domain and these "protestants" have as much a right to them as you do. And if you can't agree with that, than you're a for profit business, not a religion."
Disregarding the actual efficacy of any of it, competition is a good thing!
The Cof$ will continue, probably reformed enough to avoid being legislatively or financially wiped out.
They'll keep on with a different "pope" after DM and the pedulum will continue to swing with regard to management practices.
And you'll have the guys like Rathbun, and he would be an excellent candidate for this, organizing their own "protestant" version of a church.
And you'll have the Freezoners, much like many of today's Christians who consider themselves Christian but won't have any formal ties with a church.
And life will go on.
BTW: I think it would be legally fascinating if the "Protestant" version was formally created. Part of that evolution would be a dispute and some sort of resolution over the "Copyrights and Scriptures".
How can scriptures of a religion be copyrighted? By its very nature, a religion is in the public domain, right? I think a judge would look at the Cof$ and say, "Well, if you're really a religion and these really are scriptures then they are withiin the public domain and these "protestants" have as much a right to them as you do. And if you can't agree with that, than you're a for profit business, not a religion."
Disregarding the actual efficacy of any of it, competition is a good thing!
Gadfly
Crusader
Competition within the field of Scientology? I suspect that a good deal of Hubbard's rantings would first have to be successfully removed from the subject materials to make any actual competition in this area possible.
Competition implies differing versions. Hubbard was VERY careful to make it VERY clear that there is ONLY ONE VERSION - his version. KSW makes that very clear. All of that KSW SHITE would have to go for there to be REAL competition. Unlikley, as Scientology believers of all ilk tend to grasp onto the flakier aspects of it all (KSW being one of these flakier aspects that falsely empowers the believer with "the only true way", "the only true effective methods", and "Ron, as the ONLY true source).
Imagine 50 different "sects" of Scientology, ALL keeping a firm hold on KSW, each demanding and asserting that:
1) We have the correct tech
2) We have the correct path to total freedom
3) We have the ONLY answer to help Mankind
4) We are the correct version of LRH, our illustrious SOURCE
All arguing and all enemies of each other.
nozeno
Gold Meritorious Patron
No, no, and no.
Doesn't matter how long it will last because in the grand scheme of what else is going on in the world, scientolgy is but a pimple on an elephants ass.
Kookaburra
Gold Meritorious Patron
Thus far the church has clung rigidly to the belief that it is perfect and has resisted any attempt internally or externally to improve conditions or correct itself. The only change that has occurred is that it has become more abusive and more rigid. It is more than crumbling, it is collapsing, and still not even an acknowledgement that anything is wrong. So no, they will not realize anything and they will not change. They will experience unprecedented expansion with stats straight up and vertical till their dying breath.
I think that Scientology will continue to be practiced in the freezone for some time to come. Various versions of it.
I think Scientology will go down in some countries perhaps by the end of 2010. Worldwide, maybe 2012? It's anybodies guess, really, but I can't see them lasting that much longer with their current attitude and leadership. And even if DM vanished from Planet Earth tomorrow, there are entrenched ideas and modus operandi which will not disappear with him. So any change in management will not save them. Not at this point. It's too late.
All the revisions have been to make Scn more unworkable and harsher and to suck more money out of the "suckers". There have been no improvements. They have removed a lot of LRH quotes and warnings that might have saved the day if they had been heeded. Instead, they have revived all the worst things that ever happened in Scn and made them routine. So this attempted change has been 100% negative.
The person who put together the basics didn't just have MU's. He's a raving SP! And anyone who spots that gets an instant declare. So the CoS will not get any better. Every person still in is operating under complete delusion.