Don't look over there

[Robert H]

Someone answered one of my posts with a viewpoint which was something along the lines of "there is no need for you to look at any of the datum's of Scientology because it is all been proven to be a load of ....". He then went on to give me an example of one piece of tech.

I then took a look at it. When I was in Scientology, we were basically told what we could or couldn't look at. If they found you were looking into an area, you would get into trouble. So you restricted your look. You didn't pick up books written by Psychiatrists or Psychologists. You stayed away from other religions. You stayed away from people who were against Scientology.

Now that I am out, I find the same viewpoint occurring amongst Ex-Scientologists. Don't look over there. Don't confront that. Don't examine the data of Scientology. Maybe they think that you are going to get sucked into it again if you do that. Maybe they think they will get confused and start believing it.

But I think this is an important process. You have to examine what happened. You have
to confront the incorrect data that you have been given. You really have to confront what you went through and make sense of it.

As I left Scientology I did an interesting thing. I had already decided that I was not going to do anything further in Scientology, and was working out what to do about it. So I then decided to do all of the basic books. I didn't want to do it in the Org, as they would be over me all of the time, and I hated being in the course room. So I did it as the full Extension Course. I then took in the lessons to be marked. I can remember even writing in one of my answers that what he said was a total lot of bullshit, and went on to explain why. No-one ever came back to me on this. Most likely because they saw I was right. But my reason for doing this was that I wanted to see exactly what he was saying. I wanted to read it all and evaluate it properly. So as I was reading Dianetics, I could see how it was not. I could see that there was no such thing as a Clear. I then did the same with all the rest of the books. I could see that I had not achieved anything of what he had promised in those books. But I could also see why he thought he would be able to achieve it.

So for me it was a big eye opener. To see what had attracted me to Scientology. So see why I did all that I did. And to finally see that it was a dead end. To see for myself, without anyone having to tell me, that it was all a load of shit.

So that is why I worry when people have the viewpoint that you should not confront or look at what you went through in Scientology, especially what you thought were gains. I worry when someone tells me I should not look over there.

 

[Lermanet_com]

There is nothing wrong with determining just what it was that you thought had worked in $cientology.

The lessons I have learned from pursuing that have made the wasted years believing the words of that madman somewhat worthwhile.

I feel I have learned much about the construction of the matrix called society.

I can't say that I like what I have learned.

regards
Arnie Lerma

 

[Auditor's Toad]

It seems you are jumping around starting several new threads off one basic thread.

You wouldn't mind if - for clarity - I asked Emma to consolidate all these threads into one ?

 

[Rene Descartes]

Okay, in that case,...

Look over there.

Caveat: I am not auditing you.

Rd00

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Okay, in that case,...

Look over there.

Caveat: "I am not auditing you."

Rd00

Another HCO Sec Check !

Can I say " OK, I'm not PCing for you either "

or putting the cans down " This is not a session either "

or " So that means this one is a freebie?"

 

[Rene Descartes]

caveat equals r-factor?

nah.

the day I see r-factor instead of caveat on any kind of contract, label, or wog paperwork imagonnahead4dahills!

Rd00

 

[Student of Trinity]

The Church of Scientology applies a certain amount of force when it says not to look at some things. There's the ultimate threat of disconnection from all your friends and even family, or of the loss of 'your eternity'. At the very least, you could be forced to endure some unpleasant conversations before continuing with your next round of auditing.

But once you're out, nobody has any force to apply. If some guy on a message board says not to look at something, so what? They can't do anything to stop you from looking, or to punish you if you do look. You're free to look. They're free to tell you not to look. Nobody is forcing anyone. I see this as a big difference.

 

[Auditor's Toad]

The Church of Scientology applies a certain amount of force when it says not to look at some things. There's the ultimate threat of disconnection from all your friends and even family, or of the loss of 'your eternity'. At the very least, you could be forced to endure some unpleasant conversations before continuing with your next round of auditing.

But once you're out, nobody has any force to apply. If some guy on a message board says not to look at something, so what? They can't do anything to stop you from looking, or to punish you if you do look. You're free to look. They're free to tell you not to look. Nobody is forcing anyone. I see this as a big difference.

And, my little buddy Robert H sort of changed my saying the OT levels are not worth looking at as in studying and doing into don't lokk at them period.

Somebody wants to waste some time looking at OT III : Xenu ( evil galatic overlord ) sending propellor less DC 8s through space to Teegac ( earth ) ( Only Hubbard couls conjure up a number of how many million of planes THAT would have taken) and so it allthose people down in volcanos ( no matter they didn't exist at that time ) and used hydogen bombs ( no trace evidence of nuclear waste left ) to blow 'em up, etc etc details. And now YOUR body is those old thetans ( now body thetans ) and Clusters ( bunches of BTs stuck together ) Per Hubbard, that is all a body is and it also makes YOU as a being crazy so "it" needs " handled" aka the OT levels ) ( It is all on the net ( search : Xenu ) Go for it.


Now, what is it again I said people should not look at?

Nobody "needs" to confront it. Nobody is trapped there . But, hey, people are free to get right in there... just bear in mind before one invests years in that stuff that in 60 years of lots and lots and lots of people trying there is not yet one clear or one OT

 

[SweetnessandLight]

Dear Robert, Welcome to ESMB. I'm glad you're here and even more glad you are out of Scientology!

Sounds to me like you're doing it right. Eventually, everyone who left the cult needs to figure out for themselves "what happened" to them. I think it's wisest to read everything possible about the subject...including "forbidden" books and websites... like this one! LOL!

You seem to characterize Exes as telling people not to look...the only Exes I see doing that are some of the followers of Marty's blog, who in reality, a person could argue are not really Exes at all...

When people need medical attention or professional therapeutic mental/emotional help, it's best for them to confront their need for same, and get the help they need, and not fool around too long with substituting self help books, which is how, looking at them in the very best light possible (which is not how I really see them) you could describe most of the basics.

In any event, read, think, talk, write, learn. Let nothing stop you!

 

[Robert H]

And, my little buddy Robert H sort of changed my saying the OT levels are not worth looking at as in studying and doing into don't lokk at them period.

Somebody wants to waste some time looking at OT III : Xenu ( evil galatic overlord ) sending propellor less DC 8s through space to Teegac ( earth ) ( Only Hubbard couls conjure up a number of how many million of planes THAT would have taken) and so it allthose people down in volcanos ( no matter they didn't exist at that time ) and used hydogen bombs ( no trace evidence of nuclear waste left ) to blow 'em up, etc etc details. And now YOUR body is those old thetans ( now body thetans ) and Clusters ( bunches of BTs stuck together ) Per Hubbard, that is all a body is and it also makes YOU as a being crazy so "it" needs " handled" aka the OT levels ) ( It is all on the net ( search : Xenu ) Go for it.


Now, what is it again I said people should not look at?

Nobody "needs" to confront it. Nobody is trapped there . But, hey, people are free to get right in there... just bear in mind before one invests years in that stuff that in 60 years of lots and lots and lots of people trying there is not yet one clear or one OT

Thanks for the kind words Toady.

 

[Gadfly]

Now, what is it again I said people should not look at?

Nobody "needs" to confront it. Nobody is trapped there. But, hey, people are free to get right in there... just bear in mind before one invests years in that stuff that in 60 years of lots and lots and lots of people trying there is not yet one clear or one OT

Toady, some people ARE TRAPPED in the paradigm of OT III and NOTS.

Confronting how one was sucked into and stuck with the PARADIGM is often needed and very helpful in freeing oneself from lingering beliefs and attiudes about Scientology.

That is very different than being trapped in some REAL and ACTUAL mental/spiritual dilemma involving the situations Hubbard described involving [/I]BTs and clusters with the atomic explosions and days of implanting.

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Toady, some people ARE TRAPPED in the paradigm of OT III and NOTS.

Confronting how one was sucked into and stuck with the PARADIGM is often needed and very helpful in freeing oneself from lingering beliefs and attiudes about Scientology.

That is very different than being trapped in some REAL and ACTUAL mental/spiritual dilemma involving the situations Hubbard described involving [/I]BTs and clusters with the atomic explosions and days of implanting.

I'm going to go with what you say. I believe you.

I was not trapped in the paradigm of OT III & NOTs - so that's not real to me.

On the other hand, I pretty much feel I know what I sucked myself into scn with ( and it came from me ) and I don't see where my own insanities are particularly helpful to anyone else as they sort themselves out.

 

[Robert H]

Looking at what Toady said on this thread made me think of something.

I have noticed how some people take what you say and totally mis-interpret it. Or look at it from a totally different viewpoint which makes it look a bit weird. And I was wondering about it.

When I was in Scn I did the Key to Life course. I got through the small common words section with 1 person, and had to start again with another. I got into Grammer, and had to start small common words again with someone else. So I really was quite thorough with the small common words and grammar. Now what can I say about that course? It was a real pain. I hated it. It took a hell of a long time. But it produced quite a change in my life. I was finally able to put a sentence together and actually write something. I now write Technical Specifications for a living, and I consider these quite good in that they are simple to understand, and that is very important when non-technical people read these specs. So I consider this was a major win in my life.

But to admit this on this board would result in quite a reaction. There would be a reaction that I was brainwashed, or it was a placebo effect. But the bottom line is that here was a piece of tech and a course made to get that tech implemented. This tech was exactly what I needed, and it solved a problem that I was having in my life. We know that study tech was not LRHes. Was it his idea for the actual course? Who put the whole thing together? Maybe someone knows the right answers to these questions. But the point is that it did produce a result.

That does need to be confronted and put into perspective. It doesn't mean that everything works for everyone. I am sure that there are people that did Key To Life that it messed them up. I am sure there were really messed up delivery of the course (I experienced that). But I am sure that there are lots of things that were done for various people that did actually produce a result. That just needs to be put into perspective.

 

[olska]

...
I pretty much feel I know what I sucked myself into scn with ( and it came from me ) and I don't see where my own insanities are particularly helpful to anyone else as they sort themselves out.

You never know what details about your experience might resonate with someone else who is trying to untangle themself from the mindfuck of scientology.

The "personal insanities" that drew you into the cult and kept you there for however long might be very similar to what another person experienced but what that person, as yet, is unable to articulate.

Ever had the experience where someone casually drops a few choice, life-changing words into your world, with no idea of the consquences of their statement? I have -- both as speaker and receiver. Trippy.

Of course, you are under no obligation to share any part of your life, thoughts, motivations, intentions, or personal "insanities" with a bunch of strangers on the internet, and as a firm believer in the value of anonymity (nothing to do with scientology or the Co$ or OSA or any such...), I would never try to talk you into sharing anything you might later regret.

 

[Gadfly]

I'm going to go with what you say. I believe you.

I was not trapped in the paradigm of OT III & NOTs - so that's not real to me.

On the other hand, I pretty much feel I know what I sucked myself into scn with ( and it came from me) and I don't see where my own insanities are particularly helpful to anyone else as they sort themselves out.

But, what affected you and caused YOU to "get into SCN", and "remain stuck in SCN", when delineated clearly, often can and does help others when you talk about it. For instance, it was real to me that part of why I got stuck into Scn was because I accepted some amount of "the three beliefs of Scientology". I wrote about that, even went so far as to put into an essay, and I know that my talking about "what fucked me up" has helped other people, because more than a few people have mailed me thanking me for it.

There ARE similarities between people in how the Scientology entrapment process works - both in attracting people into the scam and keeping them there. CONFRONTING aspects of that can be very helpful to self, and when describing it, can be helpful to others.

 

[Auditor's Toad]

<snip>
I did the Key to Life course.
<snip>
....So I consider this was a major win in my life.
<snip>
just needs to be put into perspective.

Some people do the KTL and some people have a degree in English Grammar.

I'd not put down the results one demonstrates from doing either.

If it was a career help for you, it was a career help for you.

KTL is on the training side...right?
OT levels are on the processing side of the bridge, right?

Apples to......what?

 

[Auditor's Toad]

But, what affected you and caused YOU to "get into SCN", and "remain stuck in SCN", when delineated clearly, often can and does help others when you talk about it. For instance, it was real to me that part of why I got stuck into Scn was because I accepted some amount of "the three beliefs of Scientology". I wrote about that, even went so far as to put into an essay, and I know that my talking about "what fucked me up" has helped other people, because more than a few people have mailed me thanking me for it.

There ARE similarities in how the trap works - both in attracting people into the scam and keeping them there. CONFRONTING aspects of that can be very helpful to self, and when describing it, can be helpful to others.

Oh, no question, I fucked myself up.

Not sure how that helps anyone else, but, there it is...I fucked myself up.

 

[lotus]

Someone answered one of my posts with a viewpoint which was something along the lines of "there is no need for you to look at any of the datum's of Scientology because it is all been proven to be a load of ....". He then went on to give me an example of one piece of tech.

I beleive that the person intention was only to express that Scamology is garbage and would intend to save people time to know it so.

I don't beleive he intended to deny the right to people to look and see wich is a very different issue.

Welcome on board -
Be prepare to read many opposite viewpoint and some expressing that OT level are a hoax.

 

[Gadfly]

Oh, no question, I fucked myself up.

Not sure how that helps anyone else, but, there it is...I fucked myself up.

Toady, I know you revel in and gain enjoyment from being a smart-ass, and I enjoy it too, but the "devil is in the details".

I know you are bright and can explain things well (if you want to), because I have seen you do it.

I could say, "you fucked up by believing in Scn", and leave it at that. That might help a few. Porbably not many. But, if I take some time to look it over, investigate with an aim to helping others, a longer and more detailed exposition does FAR MORE.

Read my whole essay linked at the bottom and compare it to "you fucked up by believing in Scn". The essay does MUCH more in helping any person understand what happened. FAR MORE.

Please, don't cross over into being disingenuous.

 

[olska]

Looking at what Toady said on this thread made me think of something.

I have noticed how some people take what you say and totally mis-interpret it. Or look at it from a totally different viewpoint which makes it look a bit weird. And I was wondering about it.

When I was in Scn I did the Key to Life course. I got through the small common words section with 1 person, and had to start again with another. I got into Grammer, and had to start small common words again with someone else. So I really was quite thorough with the small common words and grammar. Now what can I say about that course? It was a real pain. I hated it. It took a hell of a long time. But it produced quite a change in my life. I was finally able to put a sentence together and actually write something. I now write Technical Specifications for a living, and I consider these quite good in that they are simple to understand, and that is very important when non-technical people read these specs. So I consider this was a major win in my life.

But to admit this on this board would result in quite a reaction. There would be a reaction that I was brainwashed, or it was a placebo effect. But the bottom line is that here was a piece of tech and a course made to get that tech implemented. This tech was exactly what I needed, and it solved a problem that I was having in my life. We know that study tech was not LRHes. Was it his idea for the actual course? Who put the whole thing together? Maybe someone knows the right answers to these questions. But the point is that it did produce a result.

That does need to be confronted and put into perspective. It doesn't mean that everything works for everyone. I am sure that there are people that did Key To Life that it messed them up. I am sure there were really messed up delivery of the course (I experienced that). But I am sure that there are lots of things that were done for various people that did actually produce a result. That just needs to be put into perspective.

And there are people who got a result very similar to the one you mention here (the ability to write effectively, in technical or creative or business applications) without ever encountering study tech, Hubbard, the KTL course, or any other aspect large or small of scientology.

They learned in grade school, middle school, high school, community college, college, or on-the-job or by determined self-study of the craft.

It is true that people learned things from their experience in scientology, and their scientology courses, and that some of their "favorite" life "stable datums" were things they first encountered in scientology.

But if you are really trying to free yourself of "scientology think" (whatever that means to you), this is something you might want to look at:

It has never been effectively argued that scientology was the ONLY place, or even the BEST place, for individuals to learn ANY of those things that have been, as you've done above, reported as "wins."

In fact, many of the life skills people claim to have acquired through scientology, can be seen by an exterior observer to be inferior to those same life skills manifest in non-scientologists -- in artists, writers, sports players, business managers and entrepreneurs, parents, public speakers and other professional communicators, etc. etc.