ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

[Kathy (ImOut)]

Another thought after reading Pixie's thought(s).

I never appreciate being on a board and getting blasted for my opinions, viewpoints, thoughts, prior solutions, current solutions, etc. I've left other boards for being blasted for what I've written.

The way I see it - it's called being civil. Or using Scn terms - granting beingness. Or if you don't want to use Scn terms - letting someone have their own damn thoughts, opinions, viewpoints, ideas, etc.

While in the CofS, we had enough of the "thought policing". I don't want it outside. On another board, I busted Grundy for policing my thoughts (post).

So, rather than being mean or rude or just down right nasty when you don't agree with another, be polite and say you don't agree and then agree to disagree. There are things that just aren't worth fighting about, in my opinion. But I do love a good debate - but a good debate means stating your facts and offering proof. Not being a kindergartner and calling someone an idiot or some other form of name calling. We're all adults here and should be able to be civil.

My husband is still involved with the Freezone/Ron's Org and we have dinner with others that are involved. If they get to talking about this stuff, I tune it out. Or I sometimes try to change the subject. So I'm around it on a fairly constant basis. But, that is MY CHOICE. I'd rather spend some time with my husband and friends - even though we don't see eye-to-eye - than not. But all are aware that I'm DONE with anything having to do with Scn - in the CofS or out of the CofS - I'm done with it all. And no one in my circle tries to change my mind. My husband is cool that I'm going my direction. And I'm cool with him going his direction. We just don't talk about it at home - because I don't want to hear about it. I even try to limit my Scn words when talking to him. Except when I know a Scn word would be so much easier to get my thoughts across to him. LOL!!!!

We all have our own path to walk down. And the nice thing about being out of the CofS, is that we can actually, mindfully make that choice of which path we walk down.

I'll get off my soap box now.

 

[Pixie]

One thing for sure some in the freezone don't like a lot of critic stuff. I just let that be. The critics don't like the Scien stuff. I call that being human for choosing what one wants and what one does not want.

Barb

The point you're missing here is that by the time someone gets to this board after being in the cult ten, twenty, thirty, forty years, their brain is in such a mush that they are not even in a fit state to 'see' that they have a choice! That's why a lot of people go 'cult hopping' when they first get out, it's like an instilled command, when was the last time you were given a 'choice' whilst inside the cult, one can very easily forget, as I certainly did, that I have any choice about anything in my life in the first place!

It's all too easy for new people to get 'sucked in' by the freezone push and not so subtle advertising. It's easy for us to sit here and say oh well you don't have to read it if you don't want to, you can choose.. really?? Can I ?? I didn't realize, it's been over twenty years since I've made a desicion!!!! Not everyone coming to this board as a new person has that ability.

 

[Alanzo]

The FZ forum episode was interesting. I saw some negative stuff about ESMB being "full of lies and messed up cases" and so I replied. I got a mixed reaction but the overriding one was "don't come here and cause trouble or bring your entheta viewpoints". One poster even asked me to leave the forum. I admit I did start the fight by saying that the "messed up cases" were caused by "your beloved church". I also asked the question as to "what lies?" They didn't like it.

I have since found out that this particular forum is a hard line LRH/CoS purest forum that doesn't allow dissent.

Well good then. Let's expose them completely for the Fascists that they are!

What forum is this?

To be fair I was backed up by Mark Baker & Terril and welcomed by one or two members.

What did disturb me was the seeming hypocrisy in that some members of that board view ESMB as a potential recruitment pool, yet others wouldn't allow me to post on their board unless I held the "party line" of no entheta. In short, I felt used.

Fascists will do that.

They will recruit and lie and slowly entrap you into their fixed and pinheaded mindset. It's evil.

It deserves the brightest sunshine we can point at it.

The thread that concerns me the most is the recently retired "L correction" thread. I don't want to rehash that thread AT ALL. I just want to say that I'm absolutely disgusted that this persons privacy has been violated, and by the auditor no less. I'm not sure that I want any promotion of a group who will do that kind of thing just to brag or use the PC's status to boost his business.

I don't think that thread should have been retired. I think that it stands as an excellent example of the types of dangers that exist, and people need to know about it.

Just as a note for others reading playing the home game: Pierre Ethier is a "Class 12" freezoner who claims to have "fixed the case" of a recent high profile Ex. He wrote a "success story" for his PC, and obviously without his pc's permission. And was thoroughly exposed here on ESMB for the huckster that he is.

In fact, Pierre has been repeatedly exposed here on ESMB. He can't raise his head on ESMB without it getting shot because he is such an easy target as LRH's butt-boy.

As for PMs, well they are private. Lets just say that I do get a lot of complaints about FZ advertising. A lot of exes don't want to be exposed to more recruiting or advertising. They want a break from it, not to come here and be exposed to more of it.

The answer is never less freedom or fewer rights.

So this is my dilemma. Free speech and no control over content or .....well......whatever the alternative is.

I understand. I watched a video the other day where an Anon put all the URLs of all the critic sites in it for "More Information". ESMB was not mentioned.

I felt like I was not one of the "cool kids".

Well too bad, I say.

We are the Ex Scientologist Message Board. We specialize in helping each other through the experience of being an Ex-Scientologist.

ARS, OCMB, and others can be toxic to that process.

It's one of the reasons you started this board, right?

 

[Alan]

I agree with all that Alanzo, but it doesn't really answer my question.

I'm not suggesting that people can't do or practise anything they wish to, but I am questioning the growing concern that ESMB is seen by some members of the FZ as a recruitment pool for the FZ. Is it right that we allow this to go on, or is it better just to allow any and all and to watch the chips fall as they will?

If we have a "no stance" stance on the FZ, then that precludes a positive as well as negative stance.

Is it fair to allow recruiters to prey on vulnerable newly out exes? Is this actually happening? Is it any of our business?

These are the issues I want thrashed out.

ESMB is a two edge sword........at present ESMB tends to be operating from the position of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend."

But FZ abuses or Knowledgism abuses or Idenics abuses or any other practices abuses are also liable to be aired - this is how it should be.

The Anons have introduced a new factor into these subjects - they are in the majority of cases a non-vested interest observer and voice in our subjects......their willingness to study and take action in this field has been truly amazing - world-wide we are quickly getting an informed public.

My hope in the future long run is that there are plenty of strong practitioners that can truly help people........that there is power of choice for people.

The FZ like Scio are incestuous marketers - they feed on themselves - they rarely are able to disseminate to new people.

Like DM thought - by taking over the Mission Network he would get all those people - instead he lost the future - now his Orgs are empty - his subject ridiculed world-wide.

Scientology is finished - the reason being; the Cultic Organizational Structure and policies stop the little bit of oversold tech they have from working.......

A new better pathway will be built - it may have some Scio Tech - but it more than likely that Scio Tech was plagerised from earlier practices.

As for the FZ maybe some inspection should be done - there appears to be many differing factions - some with modest goals - some with the intent to take over the ex-scio field.

Perhaps Terril would give us a description of each group and their intent!

I find it exciting that ESMB and XSO have helped thousands of people get free of the Scio programs that they were trapped in. They are great models of basic ways to communicate about a subject.

Bottom line - lets allow free speech......just like when Tom Cruise jumped on the couch - sometimes too much attention can blow a subject to pieces.

Alan

 

[Good twin]

If you need to know what happened to all your old auditors you could find them on thier own site. As I said, I'm the first one to admit I do not like censoring of any kind, however, it's the attitude we are talking about, some of the answers to newbies posts are all about recruitment, perhaps you don't notice this because you were in the freezone yourself, but you have to acknowledge that there have been advertisments in the past in bright glaring blue on certain people's sig lines, if this is not using another's site for one's own gains then I don't know what is.

I was never in the freezone.
Yes, I have seen the sig lines. I've also seen quotes of authors in sig lines, and advertising for favorite musical groups etc.
I am sorry you had a bad experience when you first got here. I really love your style in your posts and appreciate it when you let it rip. But the opposing view is also interesting.
I am glad that no one was guiding me or protecting me when I came to this board. I have been able to just observe and interact and make up my own mind. I suppose I could google everyone I have ever known or wondered about in my history, but here I find people who I had forgotten and would have never thought to look for.
Pixie, we are who we are and I am so very happy to have the chance to get to know every one of you better!

GT

 

[Pixie]

I agree with your opinion about the insidous and introverting nature of many freezone practices, Pixie.

And I believe that you have performed an important role here on ESMB in speaking out against them.

But the answer to this, in my opinion, can never be to "ban" the freezone from this board. That is just more Scientology - and the very worst kind of it, too.

No. It's best to let them hang themselves.

Also, there is another important point to be made. When you get out of Scientology, you often "throw the baby out with the bathwater". A frequent causality, lying out there on the lawn, is your own reach for spirituality and your own spiritual self.

I went through a period where I needed to try other "freezone" type services. I tried a couple. And for me, going through that phase, and allowing myself to again do "auditing type things" was very good for me. It reminded me how much I loved auditing, and why some auditing is actually non-dangerous. To me, this is a vital step in being able to walk away from Scientology with all your valuables intact.

People definitely go through phases when coming out of the cult.

We should let them.

Well Alanzo you've just kicked me in the gut with that one for sure, and actually I see what you are saying. I have realized from reading your response that indeed, yes there is very much a 'fear' there within me, the mere mention of 'auditing' leaves a nauseous taste in my mouth, but reading this again, I can see it is a huge fear.

I have said before, I have no problem with the freezone existing, and I do agree it is much needed for some who may need to wake up on a gradient, however, it is just unfortunate that the only 'clashes' I have had with people on this board are from the freezone, when anything is questioned, a non sequeter answer is received, questions are not answered, rudeness is the order of the day, the knowitall attitude etc etc. Had I been treated with a modecum of respect and not slaughtered for having an opinion, my viewpoints would not be as strong as they are now, but that however is unfortunately not the case.

A new person wrote in looking for advice for his family the other day and a freezoner pounced on him immediately with the freezone can help.. this is not even what the person was asking.. it's the 'attitude' Alanzo. The freezone thread is there if anyone wishes to view it, but the freezone should NOT be 'pushed' or indeed even 'suggested' on any other threads and that is that. Some people are just not up to thinking for themselves yet Alanzo, and these 'suggestions' need to stay inside their own thread.

Thank you for your kind, insightful and understanding response.

 

[Free to shine]

When I found ESMB I had already passed the stage of wondering about an alternative for Scientology "outside". No effing way, after 40 years.

All I wanted was to find people that I may have known, to read stories from people who went through the same things I did. I was scared to post, distressed when I was thrown back into old experiences, and utterly delighted to find I wasn't alone.

It took a while to find my voice here (really!). A few months into posting I got jumped on by a Freezoner's arrogance, and the dismissive attitude displayed just threw me into great distress. I almost left, and it was only because of the kindness of a few friends here - Lionheart being one - that I got through it and stayed, though I cried for days.

Looking back on why that happened, so out of the blue, I realised we can never predict when some part of the indoctrination and it's effects is going to kick in. I'm not the sort of person who cries a lot, I was content in my life. However healing needed to happen and the sheer extent of the hidden wounds shocked me - and I have seen this happen to others - and that is when we are vulnerable, whether we like it or not.

It's all about attitude.

I find the thought of ESMB being thought about as ANY kind of recruitment area to be appalling.

I think that it's OK to have discussions - hell, they are what ESMB is all about. I also think that anyone who tries to recruit for the FZ from amongst the newly posting should be told where to get off. Terril's recent "accident" saying "welcome to the Freezone" was awful, or suggesting to someone asking for help with a family member that they should be told about the Freezone is crossing the line.

This is an exes board and our concern should be to help people recover from Scientology. Freezone discussions should stay in the FZ section and not creep into other threads. IMO

Then we can really appreciate being out.

 

[Emma]

Well good then. Let's expose them completely for the Fascists that they are!

What forum is this?

IFAchat - a yahoo group.

Fascists will do that.

They will recruit and lie and slowly entrap you into their fixed and pinheaded mindset. It's evil.

It deserves the brightest sunshine we can point at it.

I don't think that thread should have been retired. I think that it stands as an excellent example of the types of dangers that exist, and people need to know about it.

I retired it because I care about the person involved. It's clear to me that he didn't give permission for this "success story" and if I was him I'd be furious that this was all over the net. Maybe it was the wrong call. I dunno...

Just as a note for others reading playing the home game: Pierre Ethier is a "Class 12" freezoner who claims to have "fixed the case" of a recent high profile Ex. He wrote a "success story" for his PC, and obviously without his pc's permission. And was thoroughly exposed here on ESMB for the huckster that he is.

In fact, Pierre has been repeatedly exposed here on ESMB. He can't raise his head on ESMB without it getting shot because he is such an easy target as LRH's butt-boy.

He has proven once again that he is an untrustworthy blowhard.

The answer is never less freedom or fewer rights.

I understand. I watched a video the other day where an Anon put all the URLs of all the critic sites in it for "More Information". ESMB was not mentioned.

I felt like I was not one of the "cool kids".

Well too bad, I say.

I don't care about being cool. I'm 40 this year and have never been "cool" and I don't care if ESMB is considered "uncool". We rank high enough in google for any interested ex to find us in a New York minute. That's all I care about.

We are the Ex Scientologist Message Board. We specialize in helping each other through the experience of being an Ex-Scientologist.

ARS, OCMB, and others can be toxic to that process.

It's one of the reasons you started this board, right?

Yes, it really was the MAIN reason.

 

[Pitbull]

But FZ abuses or Knowledgism abuses or Idenics abuses or any other practices abuses are also liable to be aired - this is how it should be.
Alan

Could you tell us a bit more about the Knowledgism abuses? My only button, for the most part, as you know, is the daunting cost compared to just about any other practice or auditing option. But that's just me. Are there other abuses?

 

[Free to shine]

Hi! Em & everyone

Just let them go, they happily show there true value to anyone with any intelligence.

Pixie glad to hear that LH is still defending the realm & inserting some often needed sanity.

And no I'm not back just a quick visit

Hey there! Good to see you mate, wish you'd stick around a while.

 

[Neo]

We are the Ex Scientologist Message Board. We specialize in helping each other through the experience of being an Ex-Scientologist.

ARS, OCMB, and others can be toxic to that process.

It's one of the reasons you started this board, right?

I agree with this. ESMB is the only one that I feel comfortable being an active part of. In fact it was the clincher in my decision to leave the Cult. I couldn't make sense of all the anti material elsewhere. But here, there were personal stories, from people who have been there. I could relate to those far more than the militaristic anti stance of others.

The presence of the Freezone here hasn't really bothered me, although I can see how it can be a problem for some. I don't care for the attitude of the Freezoners who don't frequent this site (those mentioned by Emma earlier), as it sounds exactly like those still in the Cult. But the Freezoners I have encountered here I have found to be ok. I don't always trust their motives, but it can make for interesting debate, and even some lulz along the way.

 

[Fancy]

I was in the church for about 30 years and I choose the freezone.

I don't feel so welcome here any more now.

I do think some get a little too trough on the lists but that is what the world is made off.

I am on an art list and if I even make one error in judgement of what is allowed and not I am on moderation and or banned.

Owners of lists as well as this forum can run it as they wish.

That is why I often don't speak up on most lists or forums even in the art world. Too much stuff I rather not deal with like 3rd party and people's who can take a lesson in manners.

Emma did come out by posting a challenging message as she said. That was taken seriously too by a few who are serious about their tech.

They don't post here and are not a member here as far as I know of.

This besides Entrub the only somewhat Anti forums I Have been posting on and not that often as well.

I need more time for my art and I am going to evaulate what my time can be best spent on. Being on the net following church stuff or creating art and talking to friends.

Barb

The point you're missing here is that by the time someone gets to this board after being in the cult ten, twenty, thirty, forty years, their brain is in such a mush that they are not even in a fit state to 'see' that they have a choice! That's why a lot of people go 'cult hopping' when they first get out, it's like an instilled command, when was the last time you were given a 'choice' whilst inside the cult, one can very easily forget, as I certainly did, that I have any choice about anything in my life in the first place!

It's all too easy for new people to get 'sucked in' by the freezone push and not so subtle advertising. It's easy for us to sit here and say oh well you don't have to read it if you don't want to, you can choose.. really?? Can I ?? I didn't realize, it's been over twenty years since I've made a desicion!!!! Not everyone coming to this board as a new person has that ability.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

Who's LH?

My 2c on this. There is NO justification whatever for censoring anyone on a free speech board, and no need to do so on a board with an "ignore" function as this one has. If you don't like what I have to say, either don't read my posts or put me on "ignore."

That's all for now.

 

[Good twin]

Who's LH?

My 2c on this. There is NO justification whatever for censoring anyone on a free speech board, and no need to do so on a board with an "ignore" function as this one has. If you don't like what I have to say, either don't read my posts or put me on "ignore."

That's all for now.

LH = LionHeart ( the voice of reason)

 

[Emma]

LH = LionHeart ( the voice of reason)

There is also an "LH" on the IFAchat yahoo group who was less than welcoming.

Just to confuse you all.

 

[Pixie]

I was never in the freezone.
Yes, I have seen the sig lines. I've also seen quotes of authors in sig lines, and advertising for favorite musical groups etc.
I am sorry you had a bad experience when you first got here. I really love your style in your posts and appreciate it when you let it rip. But the opposing view is also interesting.
I am glad that no one was guiding me or protecting me when I came to this board. I have been able to just observe and interact and make up my own mind. I suppose I could google everyone I have ever known or wondered about in my history, but here I find people who I had forgotten and would have never thought to look for.
Pixie, we are who we are and I am so very happy to have the chance to get to know every one of you better!

GT

Wow, thank you, I have tears in my eys now.

Well unfortunately I was not able to 'handle' myself when I came to this board, and if it wasn't for the love, friendship and constant support of one other member on this board, I do not know where I would be right now.. this is very emotional for some reason, one of the hottest threads to date methinks..

I would love of course to tell you who this person is however I do not have their permission. And now, interestingly enough, another person has pmed me and asked for support, so what goes around does come around, and now I am in more of a position to help another which is very humbling indeed. As I said, not eveyone is in a sane and balanced state of mind coming here, and I thank god every day for this site, the layers are coming off and my voice is coming back, however I do agree, and it's only natural, that a balance in the voice must still be found and I am working on that.

I am glad you enjoy my posts, it's very kind of you to say. I do not mind anyone 'letting rip' at me if I have 'let rip' at them, however an honest answer to an honest question deserves more than a rude vulgar and non sequeter answer. For me, now at this very moment, I feel I am able to agree to allow them to hang themselves. Thank you Goodtwin.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

LH = LionHeart ( the voice of reason)

Thanks.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

This is an ARC question as I see it.

Some of us think the tech works, some don't, but what we all have in common is a dislike usually amounting to loathing of the way the CofS conducts itself and a wish to see that change. With that being said, can't people who take different views on the workability of the tech have their own spaces on here where we don't cross one another? I'll agree not to contradict people who think the whole thing's a con game if they agree not to call me a dupe, liar, idiot etc., even implicitly.

I've posted on a number of boards concerned with different subjects and they're all ongoing experiments of one kind or another so policy has to evolve continually in response.

 

[Emma]

Originally Posted by Alanzo

We are the Ex Scientologist Message Board. We specialize in helping each other through the experience of being an Ex-Scientologist.

ARS, OCMB, and others can be toxic to that process.

It's one of the reasons you started this board, right?

Actually this clarifies something for me. I care very deeply about the pain & confusion an ex experiences when leaving Scientology. This is the most important thing to me - The care of the person who has left or is in the process of leaving.

Anything else is secondary.

 

[Alanzo]

Here are some good questions:

Should the Freezone be banned and Anonymous run all of ESMB without question or criticism?

Should anyone who has any positive experience in their lives from having spent so much time in Scientology fear to write about it on ESMB?

Should all positive experiences as a member of Scientology be considered a delusion?

Should anything valuable or constructive that Scientology has to offer be dead-agented immediately and snuffed out from ESMB?

I believe the truth will set you free.

And the truth is both good and bad, right and wrong, popular and unpopular, cool and uncool, acceptable and unacceptable.

The first casualty of war is truth.

Let other boards fight their wars.

Let ESMB stand for the truth.