ESMB and The Freezone - let's have it out!

[Boldgirl]

I had a great time in scientology for many years. I really believed we were making a difference and clearing the planet. It wasn't until I was asked to do something that was out-tech, off policy and just plain WRONG that I rebelled. I was immediately put under a non-enturb order, declared SP and dumped at the bus station in the middle of the night without being allowed to say goodbye to my family, with no money, no ID and nowhere to go except back to the family I had not seen for 15 years.

At first, I was sure it was all a mistake and just some SP on the line who didn't want me to tell on her. Then, I was writing and writing and going for review comm-evs and trying to get it straightened out. I was sure the SPs would be declared and I would get an apology.

After a while I got on the Internet, and read all the stories and websites I could for days and weeks and months. At first it was easy to blame DM and current management.

The more I learned the more I realized it was all a scam, and Hubbard was NOT who he said he was.

It is a pretty big betrayal to find out you have been had by one of the biggest liars and con-men of all time.

You get really mad!

I relate my experience to the KUBLER ROSS "Stages of Greif"

DENIAL- when you still want to believe it isn't true.

ANGER- when you figure out is is true.

BARGAINING-when you try to find a way to salvage something out of it.

DEPRESSION-when you feel really sad and stupid and sorry for ever believing in it.

ACCEPTANCE-when you figure out you can't change the past but you can change the future.

I think alot of the Freezoners are really good and caring people, but they are stuck at one of the stages and aren't willing to look right now. There are a few who are just using the tech and these boards for their own selfish reasons. Those are the ones who jump all over newbies (like they did to me) and troll for customers.

I don't think there IS a baby in the septic tank of scientology. If there ever was, it long ago died of methane gas poisoning.

I agree that scientology management is suppressive, but I take it one step further. I think LRH was the source of all of that suppression.

Maybe some times it helps to offer the "gains" of the "bridge" to someone who thinks the only problem is current management.

But the truth about LRH is even more damning than the truth about current management.

Hubbard was a certifiable paranoid schizophrenic, manic depressive acolyte of Alistair Crowley's satanic cult and a pathological liar of historic proportions.

I do not trust one word he ever wrote (plagiarized), more so because he made up lots of "loaded" words, and redefined lots of other words to mean other than their normal usage.

Fooling around with Hubbard and his tech opens a veritable Pandoras Box of confusion and evil, some of which may not be apparent until years later.

I don't think the Freezone should be allowed to recruit, troll, market and proseltyze all over the board.

I think it is more than generous that they have a tech section and a freezone section here on this board.

If that's not enough, then they should set up their own recruitment sites and message boards with their own moderators so they can tell people what they can and can't say.

Many scientologists of whatever flavor seem to consider any disagreement with the "tech" a personal invalidation of their "beliefs" and rights.

I don't think we should have to tippytoe around their tender feelings all the time, or listen to their Hubbardian "answers" everytime we want to discuss something.

Although I have very little life experience in scn compared to ladybird, I feel she hits the nail on the head everytime with her posts. Everything from her assessment of Freezoners as it relates to still utilizing scientology to LRH being the ultimate core source of suppression. I just agree with everything she said. I love reading her posts....just love them. Thanks Ladybird.

 

[Boldgirl]

I wanted to talk to ex-scientologists, so I could have somebody who would understand me without having an agenda for me, and for that I thank Emma for the effort.

Then I started to see a lot of threads that wanted to put scientology back IN to my head, so I voted with my feet and stopped coming here.

People who are doing scientology are not ex-scientologists.

AMEN. It really is that simple of an issue about FZ's. That simple.
Please go elsewhere, give us real 'ex scn' space and let us heal and move on. FZ is scientology plain and simple. FZ = suppression = LRH= C of S kept alive and well and is feeding the con. FZ=still drinking the Kool aid-

 

[Smitty]

comment to Ladybird

I had a great time in scientology for many years. I really believed we were making a difference and clearing the planet. It wasn't until I was asked to do something that was out-tech, off policy and just plain WRONG that I rebelled. I was immediately put under a non-enturb order, declared SP and dumped at the bus station in the middle of the night without being allowed to say goodbye to my family, with no money, no ID and nowhere to go except back to the family I had not seen for 15 years.

At first, I was sure it was all a mistake and just some SP on the line who didn't want me to tell on her. Then, I was writing and writing and going for review comm-evs and trying to get it straightened out. I was sure the SPs would be declared and I would get an apology.

After a while I got on the Internet, and read all the stories and websites I could for days and weeks and months. At first it was easy to blame DM and current management.

The more I learned the more I realized it was all a scam, and Hubbard was NOT who he said he was.

It is a pretty big betrayal to find out you have been had by one of the biggest liars and con-men of all time.

You get really mad!

I relate my experience to the KUBLER ROSS "Stages of Greif"

DENIAL- when you still want to believe it isn't true.

ANGER- when you figure out is is true.

BARGAINING-when you try to find a way to salvage something out of it.

DEPRESSION-when you feel really sad and stupid and sorry for ever believing in it.

ACCEPTANCE-when you figure out you can't change the past but you can change the future.

I think alot of the Freezoners are really good and caring people, but they are stuck at one of the stages and aren't willing to look right now. There are a few who are just using the tech and these boards for their own selfish reasons. Those are the ones who jump all over newbies (like they did to me) and troll for customers.

I don't think there IS a baby in the septic tank of scientology. If there ever was, it long ago died of methane gas poisoning.

I agree that scientology management is suppressive, but I take it one step further. I think LRH was the source of all of that suppression.

Maybe some times it helps to offer the "gains" of the "bridge" to someone who thinks the only problem is current management.

But the truth about LRH is even more damning than the truth about current management.

Hubbard was a certifiable paranoid schizophrenic, manic depressive acolyte of Alistair Crowley's satanic cult and a pathological liar of historic proportions.

I do not trust one word he ever wrote (plagiarized), more so because he made up lots of "loaded" words, and redefined lots of other words to mean other than their normal usage.

Fooling around with Hubbard and his tech opens a veritable Pandoras Box of confusion and evil, some of which may not be apparent until years later.

I don't think the Freezone should be allowed to recruit, troll, market and proseltyze all over the board.

I think it is more than generous that they have a tech section and a freezone section here on this board.

If that's not enough, then they should set up their own recruitment sites and message boards with their own moderators so they can tell people what they can and can't say.

Many scientologists of whatever flavor seem to consider any disagreement with the "tech" a personal invalidation of their "beliefs" and rights.

I don't think we should have to tippytoe around their tender feelings all the time, or listen to their Hubbardian "answers" everytime we want to discuss something.

Very well stated.
Smitty

 

[Free to shine]

Absolutely excellent post Ladybird, thankyou!

 

[Andrew]

My two cents:

Let the community self-regulate.

As long as there are enough people with different viewpoints that pipe up then the reader can make their own mind up.

If you get a dominance of once perspective that drives the board away from it's goals then you may need to re-look at it but I don't think that it is the case here at the moment.

 

[Fancy]

LR is on the yahoo list not LH. Lone Ranger and is a she of Ron's org who can be a bit gruff at times but is of good heart if you see her purpose is.

Barb

 

[Free to shine]

I relate my experience to the KUBLER ROSS "Stages of Greif"

DENIAL- when you still want to believe it isn't true.

ANGER- when you figure out is is true.

BARGAINING-when you try to find a way to salvage something out of it.

DEPRESSION-when you feel really sad and stupid and sorry for ever believing in it.

ACCEPTANCE-when you figure out you can't change the past but you can change the future.

I think alot of the Freezoners are really good and caring people, but they are stuck at one of the stages and aren't willing to look right now. There are a few who are just using the tech and these boards for their own selfish reasons. Those are the ones who jump all over newbies (like they did to me) and troll for customers.

It's funny you should mention that - I have been meaning to start a thread on the stages of 'leaving' which certainly do seem to align with this.

Hey - here's an idea...maybe we could all have a letter after our name per the above! I'm an "A".

 

[Boldgirl]

It's funny you should mention that - I have been meaning to start a thread on the stages of 'leaving' which certainly do seem to align with this.

Hey - here's an idea...maybe we could all have a letter after our name per the above! I'm an "A".

Ok I'll start! I am between a 'D' and an 'A'...almost fully to the 'A' thanks to all of you. I was in 'D' when I found this board and realized what I felt was right...that the whole of scn was a con and that I was conned.

 

[nexus100]

Wow, what a thread. I guess everyone has a good deal to get off their chests.
I have to side with free rein for all. Not because it is always perfect but because the alternative leads to nullity of ideas and smothering of emotion. Part of release from the COS should involve the willingness, at some point, to take a 2 by 4 to the offending party. The FZ'rs as they themselves have noted provide a nice dummy for the purpose. Once past that point they become an irritant, then a barely noticeable bug on the windshield.

But keep the 2x4 handy.

 

[Free to shine]

Wow, what a thread. I guess everyone has a good deal to get off their chests.
I have to side with free rein for all. Not because it is always perfect but because the alternative leads to nullity of ideas and smothering of emotion. Part of release from the COS should involve the willingness, at some point, to take a 2 by 4 to the offending party. The FZ'rs as they themselves have noted provide a nice dummy for the purpose. Once past that point they become an irritant, then a barely noticeable bug on the windshield.

But keep the 2x4 handy.

 

[Knox Harrington]

I'm pretty much on board with Alonzo here. While some people might feel the need to "protect" newly ex-Scientologists from something they feel is harmful or a waste, in the end this is only one point of view and I don't think we're helping the situation to censor points of view in order to theoretically think for people who can't think for themselves. It's very tenuous ground to try and navigate. If you think Freezone is a load of nonsense, speak your mind as you see it and make a compelling argument. I think that ultimately we should have faith in the power of facts, reason, open communication, and people's judgement to get the job done. If you want to make a rule about advertising other websites, that's your call but I am not in any way in favor of tempering people's points of view. To that end, I wish current Scientologists could/would register on here and join the party/debate.

 

[Reasonable Lady]

Recently I have had reason to question the easy going stance on ESMB to the Freezone.

I have read certain threads that concern me, have received a number of PMs from concerned members and visited a FZ forum and recieved an interesting "welcome".

Originally I decided that FZers were welcome here because fundamentally they are Ex Scientologists. Now I have some reasons to be concerned about this apparent "affiliation" with the FZ and a perception that ESMB is a recruiting ground for and/or a free advertising venue to a larger audience for the FZ.

I haven't made any decision regarding this as yet and I'm looking for some feedback. Please don't get hysterical about this. I'm really after some thought out responses.

I want to know what you all think.

We were bad, we got hysterical. But we are feeling much better now.

Seriously, I think that some people who are considering leaving the church, and read this board, may find the existence of the FZ reassuring and make it safer to leave the church. The people on this board who are vehemently opposed to any and all tenets of scientology could have their own forum (a new forum, exposing the risks of following any of Hubbard's doctrines).

Fair enough?

RL

 

[Headend]

Roan has been banned for 24 hours for repeated violations of respectful posting.
His only terminal is the Big Aussie or time.

Thor

Wow! looks like I picked a good day for a visit.

Although I'm not sure Em would like being referred to as the BIG Aussie. Calling her the Queen of the Internet & pledging your undying allegiance worked for me.

Sorry I missed Roan's post but he does have a point the thread says "Let's have it out." Where I come from they're fighting words & written by no less than the Queen herself.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

And most would go back if Davey Miscavige would be removed and "the tech" reverted back to 1982. Almost all would go back if Davey was removed and "the tech" reverted back to 1978.



Smitty

I wouldn't. I know others who wouldn't.

People are individuals.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Still trying to catch up!

A fascinating and instructive train wreck though.

Is Thor really a moderator? I thought he
was joking.

Thor and Maia are the moderators here. And,of course, Emma.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Those that rail against Teril's ability to do what he does should think twice. He's a walking footbullet for the FZ.

I disagree. Terril's actually helped people who wanted to leave CofS who'd heard of him- and they WEREN'T Freezoners. And they wouldn't have heard of him or wanted to contact him if he was just a walking footbullet. He never gets one thing in return for anything he does. Is he perfect? Hell no. He has flaws. But so do we all.

 

[Free to shine]

We were bad, we got hysterical. But we are feeling much better now.

Seriously, I think that some people who are considering leaving the church, and read this board, may find the existence of the FZ reassuring and make it safer to leave the church. The people on this board who are vehemently opposed to any and all tenets of scientology could have their own forum (a new forum, exposing the risks of following any of Hubbard's doctrines).

Fair enough?

RL

Maybe there should be a Category called The Halfway House?

This is an EX Scientologists board. Departed, gone, left Scientology. IMO that includes the Freezone. Yes, people sometimes need to hang on to parts of Scientology and gradually understand the bigger picture, if that's appropriate for them. Some perhaps never will. That's what freedom of choice is all about, and I am sure is why Emma included a Freezone section.

Emma's original post was about ESMB being "used" by that Freezone section to change the perception of what ESMB really is. That's the crux of the matter.

 

[Reasonable Lady]

Thor and Maia are the moderators here. And,of course, Emma.

There is a third moderator, Ceres.

RL

 

[Free to shine]

Wow! looks like I picked a good day for a visit.

Although I'm not sure Em would like being referred to as the BIG Aussie. Calling her the Queen of the Internet & pledging your undying allegiance worked for me.

Sorry I missed Roan's post but he does have a point the thread says "Let's have it out." Where I come from they're fighting words & written by no less than the Queen herself.

You are right - "big Aussie" may not go down well!

I think all the previous controversy (and I haven't read it all) is more about HOW something is said rather than what. Name calling and being nasty just invites flamewars, something that thankfully is rare here. Let's discuss the nitty gritty without getting personal is my opinion.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

As I said before, it's not my decision AT ALL and I understand this, but I really wouldn't feel bad or anything if there were new revisions to the board. As I said, it's had some revisions already as things come up.

I personally think that people should be able to discuss Scn concepts from a FZ or indie or Idenics or Knowledgism or TIR point of view-just as concepts. That's not the same as proselytization though I think some would disagree with me. But to have proselytization, you have to have the "I like this. You should do it, too." element. If it's not there, it's not there.

The thing is, even on forums that don't have an FZ section, I've seen/experienced the following: someone asks or talks about why a drill is done a certain way. So someone else answers. Someone else- knowing the person who answered the question actually still likes elements of Scn- derails the thread and accuses person of proselytizing when such was not occurring. That is because it can be in the eye of the beholder.

Not everyone agrees on this stuff and that's just how life is. There may be some ROC type changes or structural changes that might make more people happier with the board. I personally think it's very sad that some people cannot deal with others liking Scn or something- it seems like the same attitudes I saw in CofS, but that's just how it is. The thing is some people really do feel that way, it's not an uncommon point of view, and they are trying to move on and this board is mainly meant for such individuals and purposes. Therefore, saddened though I am by some of the posts here, I think that it's best that the purpose, goal, idea, etc- of moving on from being in CofS and recovering should remain first and foremost. If this means a few changes in the board, then great. I also think Terril's right- Emma rocks and this has been a fascinating thread.

To whom this applies: I'm not being sarcastic. I actually do feel bad that some individuals may feel threatened or sad or dismayed or angry or annoyed at my position, the position of other contributors who've written some number of pro Scn ideology type stuff. I'm honestly not doing it with the wish to dismay or chagrin anyone and I don't think that the other indie/heretical/FZ individuals are, either. I'd like to coexist side by side with other people who don't believe as I do. I mean, hell, I even have friends who are liberals.