What's new

ESMB Poster "David Mayo"

Agreed.

Well, it takes an ideology - not just a "religion", for good people to do bad things. For example, take the ideologies of Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany. People can be encouraged to do really nasty things in the name of some set of BELIEFS - religious or otherwise.

Religion holds no monopoly on the bad actions seemingly "good people" can take to bring about some crazy version of an idealized "better world".

People who grasp onto some ideology and then set out to enforce it on all other people are the basic culprits, with religion and Scientology existing only as an EXAMPLE and subset of that much larger human tendency.

+++++++

I agree with you; but, I think mythologies came before ideologies.

Ideologies latched onto the human capacity for zealotry, as developed by religion, in order to engage those who weren't already clutching their "holy" scriptures. A manifesto can give rise to (and has) just as much evil as organized religion... whether it's Das Kapital, Mein Kampf, or Keeping Scientology Working.

Scientology has both ideology and "religiousity"... a hellacious mix, pun intended :p
 
There are many things which cause good people to do evil things, but mainly it's a weak mind. Religion just happens to prey on the weak minded, as do most con men and opportunists.

What is this "weak mind" of which you speak? What sort of weakness does it have? What is a normal strength mind?
 
I :hattip: to you, sir. Brilliant! :yes:

Religion is like a vestigial organ from our pre-upright days, or the "reptilian brain", if you like. We would all be A LOT better off without it.

"Grow up, humans!" - Frank Herbert

I am sorry but this isn't true, Is that reptillian reference thing in a Hubbard book ?

Anyway I wonder if this is a Scientologists brain when having a "release"

odj_190110.jpg
 
I 'm not sure why Worlds In Collision and Earth In Upheavel made such an impression on me and stuck with me. I was also in an engineering curriculum at the time I read them. Maybe they just scared the crap out of me. But the "records in the rocks" seemed to be so logical. And Velikovsky sure challenged the status quo.
Off to ethics with him ! To the chain locker ! Clean that crapper ! (Sorry)

I'm not familiar with Alternative 3. Should I look into it ?

Yeah, I loved Velikovsky's books. They made a big impression on me too. :yes:

No, don't bother looking up "Alternative 3". Just early "conspiracy theory" stuff.

+++++++++
 
I think it's actually a Carl Sagan reference. That's where I saw references to "reptile brain", covered by "mammal brain", covered by "primate brain", covered by neocortex, as I recall.
 
the god spot

I think it's actually a Carl Sagan reference. That's where I saw references to "reptile brain", covered by "mammal brain", covered by "primate brain", covered by neocortex, as I recall.

Hmmmm, that since the frontal lobes and partitial lobe are alsoo involved acording to the latest brainreseach I think all of the brain is involved somehow however as the temeral lobe is reptillian ? maybe it started there

http://israworld.softfortune.biz/?p=28

GOD SPOT Found in Human Brain
Posted by admin on February 15th, 2011

Has Religious Belief Been “Hardwired” Into the Human Brain?

Majority of human beings have always believed in God, a creator of them and universe. From the most ancient civilizations to the ultra modern societies, religions with God at their center have formed the foundation of human culture. In fact, the denial of God’s existence (atheism) throughout history was limited to a few individuals until the rise of communism in the 20th century. Even today, in the secular societies of the West, where modern social scientists armed with Darwinian theories have argued that God is merely a fantasy of the human imagination, the overwhelming majority of citizens, laymen and even scientists have firm belief in God.

Many archeological discoveries in support of God’s existence have led some anthropologists to conclude that belief in God must be inborn and not learnt. The Holy Quran reveals this truth in these words:

“Remember when your Lord brought forth from the children of Adam, from their loins, their seed (or from Adam’s loin his offspring) and made them testify as to themselves saying: ‘Am I not your Lord?’ They said: ‘Yes! We testify’ lest you should say on the Day of Resurrection:. ‘Verily we have been unaware of this’. Or lest you should say: ‘It was only our father aforetime who took others as partners in worship along with Allah and we were merely their descendants after them; will you then destroy us because of the deeds of men who practiced al batil (polytheism) and committing crimes and sins, invoking and worshipping others besides Allah?’ Thus do We explain the Ayah (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations etc) in detail so that they may turn unto the truth”. (Quran7:172-174).

Adam’s progeny declared: “Our Lord, we bear witness that You are our ord; we have no other Lord but Allah. Allah raised their father Adam, and he looked at them and saw those of them who were rich and those who were poor, and those who had good forms and those who did not. Adam said: “O Allah! I wish You to make Your servants equal.” Allah replied “I love being thanked.” Adam saw among the prophets like lamps among his progeny.

A team of neuroscientists from the University of California conducted a study in 1997 on epileptic patients who are known to have profoundly spiritual experiences. From the study, Scientists believe that they have found a “God Module” in the human brain which could be responsible for human’s evolutionary instinct to believe in religion. According to study this is a circuit of nerves in the front of the brain, which appears to become electrically active when they think about God.

The scientists located a circuit of nerves in the front of the brain, which appears electrically active when they think about God or their creator. Many epileptic patients who suffered from seizures of the brain’s frontal lobe reported that they frequently experienced intense mystical happenings during which they often obsessed with religious thinking or spirituality. The most interesting part of these seizures is that there occurs over-stimulation of nerves in the “God Module” part of the brain.

These scientists reported that there may be dedicated neural machinery in the temporal lobes concerned with religion to impose order and stability on society. The report also indicated that whether a person believes in a religion or even in God may depend on the conditions and environment in which that part of brain developed.

Under the supervision of Dr.Vilayanur Ramachandran the research team compared epileptic patients with normal people and a group of people who were intensely religious. With the help of monitors on the skin of the subjects, they conducted a standard test for activity in the brain’s temporal lobes. The results revealed that when scientists showed them words that invoke spiritual belief the epileptic patients and deeply religious people showed a similar response.

As the research conducted only on religious people and if the research is correct and there is a “God Module’ in human brain, then it might be suggested that atheists could have a differently configured neural circuit in brain.

In response of this study, the Bishop of Oxford said that whether there is a “God Module“is a question for scientists, not for theologians. “It would not be surprising if God had created us with a physical facility for belief”.

Man’s innate belief in a Supreme Being, proposes that man began as a monotheist, but in time, strayed into various forms of polytheism. This is further supported by fact that all of the so-called primitive tribes, which have been “discovered,” have been found to hold a belief in a Supreme Being. No matter what their evolutionary stage of religious development is found to have been at the time of “discovery,” most were found to believe in a Supreme God over all other gods and spirits. As such, the concept of a single Supreme Being remains in most of the religion’s as evidence that the masses strayed away from monotheism by giving some of God’s attributes to other aspects of creation, which eventually came to be regarded as lesser gods in some cases and as intercessors in others.

Nevertheless, a Supreme God, in whatever form He takes, is at the core of most religions of the world.
 
I am sorry but this isn't true, Is that reptillian reference thing in a Hubbard book ?

Anyway I wonder if this is a Scientologists brain when having a "release"

odj_190110.jpg

Read all about Man's "reptilian heritage" in these books. Sadly, I actually read them both many years ago (I have read just about everything ever written within the realms of crazy UFO/aliens/conspiracy theories). Note: I take none of it seriously.

Barbara Marciniak speaks in her book "The Bringers of The Dawn" about the lizards, the reptilian spacegods.

The same story is told by Barbara Hand Clow in her book "The Pleiadian Agenda, A New Cosmology for the Age of Light".

Or here:

http://home.iae.nl/users/lightnet/religion/raelian.htm

Nutty stuff. But, really, just about ANYTHING could be true. And, in the end, you will NEVER have enough "facts" to make an intelligent decision. My attitude is, fuck it, why believe anything at all????? :confused2:

I find that "belief" (of just about any sort) involves an evolutionary step that humans must GROW OUT OF. One needs to work through it. And, get to a point where one abandons all belief (and intellect) in favor of simply "being in the NOW" and extending compassion to all-that-is.

Practicing this maxim is FAR more important than all of the concepts and ideas (i.e. beliefs) in all the minds of all people at all times:

Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You

And, I don't consider myself a Christian.

Accepting some set of ideas or beliefs, and then setting out to enforce these onto others is a major bane of the human race. Analyzing Man's history within that framework is an interesting thing to do. Try it some time. This has been done in politics, economics, religion, and even science. The next few hundred years may display Man's sorry tendency in this realm where he will enforce "scientific ideas" onto Man and the environment, as some "path to a new and wonderous new tomorrow". Watch out! I trust NO ideologically-driven person or group - and in many ways "science" IS the modern "religion".

+++++
 
I agree with you; but, I think mythologies came before ideologies. ...

Myth is simply the attempt to describe through narrative & metaphor the mysteries that a society is unable to explain. There is much wisdom contained in myth, but it requires recognizing myth to be myth.


Mark A. Baker :angel:
 
What is this "weak mind" of which you speak? What sort of weakness does it have? What is a normal strength mind?

I'm really not interested in getting into discussion about it, if you are really interested in finding out, you could turn on A&E just about any day of the week and watch an episode of 'The First 48' or any of the similar real life crime based shows and see these weaknesses in action for yourself.
 
I'm really not interested in getting into discussion about it, if you are really interested in finding out, you could turn on A&E just about any day of the week and watch an episode of 'The First 48' or any of the similar real life crime based shows and see these weaknesses in action for yourself.

Okay, you are using the term in the sense that the person is vulnerable for one reason or another. They "have a weakness". I was thinking you meant some minds are resistant to religion, cons, etc., inherently, which I don't think is true.

I see religion (and cons) as being like computer viruses. My computer is pretty good, but if I didn't have the correct programs in place to defend it, it would fall to viruses within minutes of being online.

I don't think people fall to religions (or cons) based on a weakness of their mind, but rather due to failure to educate them about how to protect themselves, either through formal education in logic, or through hard knocks, etc.
 
I don't think people fall to religions (or cons) based on a weakness of their mind, but rather due to failure to educate them about how to protect themselves, either through formal education in logic, or through hard knocks, etc.

Years ago I met with more than one academic who were professionals, studying "Cults" and "Cult behavior".

They told me exactly what you're saying, UM: "Many people think people who get into cults are stupid or weak. Actually, per their studies, it's actually quite the opposite. Many people who get into Cults are quite smart, just looking for "Something More"...thus they joined up with a Cult, thinking it'd be more." :omg:

Yes, all agree, education about how mind control and cults operate, as well as formal education re logic (or informal, even) will help people to NOT get suckered "in". :yes:

My best to all,

Tory/Magoo
www.youtube.com/ToryMagoo44
[email protected]
Burbank, CA
(818) 588-3044
 
There are plenty of things to discuss here besides "you know what." I, for one, would love to hear of some of your current, personal philosophy and general outlook on things that interest you.

1. After years of having a Ho Hum attitude toward organic veges, fruit, eggs 'cos they cost so much, we started growing some. Now enjoying it.

2. Been trying to think about the fact that the N. Pole moving so much per year in the last 10 years. It's unnerving as I haven't been able to get any information on what happened in earlier times when the polarity of North and South Poles switched and I fear it might be terribly disconcerting.

3. All this dark matter is also irksome. How do they know it is dark matter and not warped space. Wish I could ask Bruce Hines about it.

I know little about that stuff but, since you asked ...

D :melodramatic:

Welcome, David!!!

And just to be a butt...we now have matter, anti-matter, dark matter and negative matter!!

...wonder if they all come in solids, liquids, gases and plasmas...

Seriously, while maintaining a light atmosphere, would like to hear if you are still a student of spiritual interests and, if so, what information you find influential these days.
 
Ideology

Well, it takes an ideology - not just a "religion", for good people to do bad things. For example, take the ideologies of Stalin's Russia or Hitler's Germany. People can be encouraged to do really nasty things in the name of some set of BELIEFS - religious or otherwise.

Religion holds no monopoly on the bad actions seemingly "good people" can take to bring about some crazy version of an idealized "better world".

People who grasp onto some ideology and then set out to enforce it on all other people are the basic culprits, with religion and Scientology existing only as an EXAMPLE and subset of that much larger human tendency.

+++++++

Gadfly, I stand corrected in that I have assumed that ideologies are religions --proponents of ideologies in my limited experience are often religiously fanatical in their assertions. Thank you for this clarification. It has helped clear my fuzzy mind!
 
One question that David posed left me feeling a bit shallow: when he asked what philosophy I/we follow or lean towards or believe in, or something like that.

I looked within and couldn't come up with anything specific that I could articulate. :omg: Now I'm trying to understand why that is, a work-in-progress. So far, I've come up with that I'm sure there are ideas (I'm reluctant to call them ethical precepts or theories) that guide my life, but they are virtually innate within me. They are not written in any 'osophy'. They have probably been formed by my lifetime of living, doing, observing, and absorbing 'stuff'.

There is a sense of mild danger here, that should I attempt to dig deep and formulate my personal philosophy, I would lose something of myself. Though I love words and language, they cannot encapsulate the whole, the depth, the essence.

Sorry, this is so abstract. Best I could do.

I'm with David on organics, but have been for much longer, since the 70s brown rice and tofu and hippie bread. :happydance:
 
Gadfly, I stand corrected in that I have assumed that ideologies are religions --proponents of ideologies in my limited experience are often religiously fanatical in their assertions. Thank you for this clarification. It has helped clear my fuzzy mind!

No doubt that, as you say, proponents of ideologies are often religiously fanatical in their assertions (and actions/behaviors).

Ideologies can be religious, but also political, economic and even "scientific". And yes, ANY of them can approach their beliefs "religiously" - with severe fanaticism.

I learned up close and personal, as a Scientology public, as a staff, and as a Sea Org member, just how nutty people can become once having accepted some set of beliefs - and then systematically setting out to PUSH these ideas onto others in the name of "their own good and betterment" - NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!

Having also read a great deal on oppressive segments of Man's history, along with various analyses of mind/thought control by many authors, I came to the conclusion that "belief" in some "set of ideas" often resides as the BASIC on the chain of most lunacy, horrendous crimes, and evil.

Beware ANY person who promotes some set of ideas as the ONLY solution to some major problem of Man. And, who then also happily takes actions to attack anybody who disagrees. Again, Scientology is but one minor example of THAT sorry human tendency.

It is a very slippery slope, where Man takes some set of ideas (ideals) and then sets out to enforce them upon the world and make the environment CONFORM to his or her "ideas" and "concepts". As I see it the ONLY valid form of that is FLOW ZERO. If you have some set of ideals about human beings, then act to display that in SELF, but at no time act in any forceful, deceitful or overbearing manner to prod ANY OTHER LIVING THING to abide by your wishes or designs. Of course, Scientology is very much guilty of that. As are many other things.

The notion of making the world conform to ones wishes is based in "magic" (and to some degree, now, in "science"). Scientology gets much from THAT "magical" (occult) heritage. In the end it is all about intention and the willingess to harm other living things in the name of some "cause".

++++++++
 
Last edited:
One question that David posed left me feeling a bit shallow: when he asked what philosophy I/we follow or lean towards or believe in, or something like that.

I looked within and couldn't come up with anything specific that I could articulate. :omg: Now I'm trying to understand why that is, a work-in-progress. So far, I've come up with that I'm sure there are ideas (I'm reluctant to call them ethical precepts or theories) that guide my life, but they are virtually innate within me. They are not written in any 'osophy'. They have probably been formed by my lifetime of living, doing, observing, and absorbing 'stuff'.

There is a sense of mild danger here, that should I attempt to dig deep and formulate my personal philosophy, I would lose something of myself. Though I love words and language, they cannot encapsulate the whole, the depth, the essence.

Sorry, this is so abstract. Best I could do.

I'm with David on organics, but have been for much longer, since the 70s brown rice and tofu and hippie bread. :happydance:

I get what you're saying. I think the question itself (Praphrase' What is your philosophy?') is not a question which always has a packaged and ready-to-emit answer. The question can limit or appear to be limiting or restricting, or alter all sorts of dynamic ideas to something more 'inert'.
 
Philosophical/spiritual interests

One question that David posed left me feeling a bit shallow: when he asked what philosophy I/we follow or lean towards or believe in, or something like that.

I looked within and couldn't come up with anything specific that I could articulate. :omg: Now I'm trying to understand why that is, a work-in-progress. So far, I've come up with that I'm sure there are ideas (I'm reluctant to call them ethical precepts or theories) that guide my life, but they are virtually innate within me. They are not written in any 'osophy'. They have probably been formed by my lifetime of living, doing, observing, and absorbing 'stuff'.

There is a sense of mild danger here, that should I attempt to dig deep and formulate my personal philosophy, I would lose something of myself. Though I love words and language, they cannot encapsulate the whole, the depth, the essence.

Sorry, this is so abstract. Best I could do.

I'm with David on organics, but have been for much longer, since the 70s brown rice and tofu and hippie bread. :happydance:

A couple of posts just a little earlier asked me what my philosophical or spiritual interests are. Left me trying to swim to the surface to gasp air. And based on another post, I too, would have to admit having been weak minded which after a little delving I attribute to a desire for companionship (i.e., to belong).

I'm enjoying these interesting discussions. They 'make my day' --and much of the night!

D
 
No doubt that, as you say, proponents of ideologies are often religiously fanatical in their assertions (and actions/behaviors).

Ideologies can be religious, but also political, economic and even "scientific". And yes, ANY of them can approach their beliefs "religiously" - with severe fanaticism.

I learned up close and personal, as a Scientology public, as a staff, and as a Sea Org member, just how nutty people can become once having accepted some set of beliefs - and then systematically setting out to PUSH these ideas onto others in the name of "their own good and betterment" - NO MATTER WHAT!!!!!

Having also read a great deal on oppressive segments of Man's history, along with various analyses of mind/thought control by many authors, I came to the conclusion that "belief" in some "set of ideas" often resides as the BASIC on the chain of most lunacy, horrendous crimes, and evil.

Beware ANY person who promotes some set of ideas as the ONLY solution to some major problem of Man. And, who then also happily takes actions to attack anybody who disagrees. Again, Scientology is but one minor example of THAT sorry human tendency.

++++++++

As in people agree on many things in life that are big picture concepts but argue about the ways to achieve them, the details - safe place to live, good friends, truth, economic stability, better life and opportunity for their children, affordable health for family and friends, loyal loving spouse and relationships, better education, sanitary conditions and justice would be some universal points of agreement anywhere...yet the democrats and republicans, as an example, argue endlessly on which route is best to achieve these goals to the point that the goals are forsaken/forgotten in order to make "your" route "right" and the other guys' route "wrong".
 
Top