Exes

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

No. I disagree even more.

You are not looking at the AMOUNT OF LYING that went on to keep people from knowing what was actually going on.

As a Scientologist, I never believed in Xenu, because I never even knew it existed as something for me to believe.

I did not know what fair game actually was in practice - and no one told me, either.

It was an onslaught, TAJ.

You are not allowing for that.

In order to be fully intellectually honest, you must acknowledge the factor of lying and coercion that went on that you did not perpetuate, too..

I never heard of Xenu while I was a Scientologist. The corrupt activity that I saw happen at a Class IV org was not perpetuated becaue of the Xenu myth.

I am saying that each day, in the interaction among Scientologist, there is this social coertion, one-to-one, individual to individual, to perpetuate and entrap people.

It could be as simple as a frown when a friend told you he was not going on course that night.

Or a knowing nod that a person was PTS when the person looked ill.

People are responsible for the actions they do.

The little actions that we all took was part of the aggregate oppression of Scientology.

Where do you think it came from if not the people taking an active part?

One did not have to know about operation Snow White to be a part of the oppression.

Operation Snow white wasn't making anyone disconnect from their families.

The myth of Xenu wasn't making anyone write a false report on another, or make a senior shout at his junior.

The oppression that occur was done one-to-one throughout the society network of Scientolgy.

And we were the ones who were doing it.

But I will let Burt Lancaster give an analogy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0XwsjPkHqw

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[angel]

I agree with Alonzo

Sometimes I wonder when someone say's it's all lies or all bad that they were never really Scientologists to begin with.

It has really helped me to learn the derivation of Dianetics. What LRH was practicing right prior to writing his original thesis. What the original purpose of his thesis was. That brings you to Thelema Kabbahlah. His thesis was a step forward in this ancient tech. His thesis was rejected and he was denied the next level. Point being this wasnt all his tech to begin with and is an actual practice. Pissing off high level Mason's in the government for exposing secrets. Summoning demon's and messing around with the dark side should be a choice not a trick. Being taught that Scientology is good and not divulging the true purpose is evil. The lies are what the problem is and I think it has something to do with attaching lies to a truth to make it stick?
Anyone who was really a Scientologist would have had both wins and losses. The amazing thing is that the wins and abilities do not go away. If you are aware you find yourself applying the tech still whether you like it or not it has become a part of you and it is still working.

I am all for moving forward with the good parts. I can't help it that is who I am now.

Ex- Jen

 

[Moonchild]

I do understand the difference between now and then. But let's look at something.

Then, you and I were having wins, so it was fine. Now we are disaffected. so now it is so horrible what they do.

But I know that I defended the Church when I heard it accused of doing harm. And I can honestly say that at the time I believed some of the bad things were acceptable trade-offs for the good I thought would come from Scientology.

OK, I concur with that largely. Something I should point out is that my time 'in' was from 1976-1984 mainly at London and subsequently AOSHUK E.G. I was a somewhat 'watery' public member and didn't keep my ear that closely to the ground as regards the political side of things. I was aware of a critical article by one Eugene Methven in the magazine 'Reader's Digest'...heard ruminations about what was to become 'Operation Snow-White'. Truth is I wasn't aware of anything much of a 'dark' nature regarding the broader 'political' scenario at that time.

Scientology didn't change from good to bad. I change what I thought about Scientology from good to bad.

I see people talk as though the bad things are caused by a bully at the top.

But the truth is, the manipulation and intimidation of Scientology is spread across the whole web. From one person to another.

Scientologists put pressure on each other to conform. Public to public, staff to public, staff to staff, senior to junior.


Undeniably true; in my gut I felt it was all wrong, but nonetheless succumbed to the peer-pressure. I don't need to re-state how you're led to believe your reservations are all about the 'bank' do I?


That's why I think it is intellectually dishonest to say that we didn't know about the bad things when we were actively perpetuating, day in and day out, the social network that made it all possible.

OK, I see what you're saying. When you're an 'in' scio, what price intellect, or intuition or gut-reaction or anything really. When you've bought into the 'bank' and KSW and all that, these things are to be disregarded as HER etc.

Yes, from an external POV it's intellectually dishonest, but if you've subscribed to (e.g.) KSW1 those arguments are made to disappear; the point is forced: either you're a scio or you ain't. And arguably, when you disabuse yourself of these previous agreements these arguments re-appear? Is that what you're proposing?

I am paraphrasing Winston Churchill here, but he said something like "People cannot expect to benefit from a corrupt regime and not expect to be held acountable for the crimes."

This implies an interesting question about the nature of responsibility. If an individual commits (or accepts benefits from) an act/actions that unbeknownst to the perpetrator, and without his intention, causes harm to others, what is the measure of his responsibility?

This I think is the crux we're drawing to here. To be grand about it, there is a crux crucis of life in general; consider the claims for reparation by descendants of Africans pressed into slavery by our ancestors. Personally, I could think of my ancestors in the Emerald Isle dispossessed by the British many generations back. Is such thinking workable? Regarding Churchill's comment: how is this 'accountability' to be realised?

So promoting the wins and gains one had, even though one claims they were not aware of the social enviroment they were in, is adding insult to injury, and intellectually dishonest.

So again TAJ; what should exes that had wins say? Or maybe we should just keep our fucking trap shut?

The Anabaptist Jacques

Best regards, Lord Moonchild of Co. Westmeath

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Best regards, Lord Moonchild of Co. Westmeath

No, never keep your mouth shut. that's what kept us all in this mess.

I just think that wins and gains can be communicated with and from the viewpoint that it was at someone else's expense.

Just acknowledge that the very activity of buying auditing or doing training or being on staff helped contributed to the injustice wrecked on others

One should acknowledge that although they had a win or a gain, that the majority took comparable losses.

Don't wear the wins and gains like medals.

I'm ultimately not talking about controlled conversation, but a consciousness that one's gain was another's pain.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Alanzo]

After 9 years of trying to expose to the world what went on, I am no longer perpetuating it. I am doing something against what went on, and what is going on.

I can say that when I got high enough to see the cracks, when I realized that Scientology was not the group I thought I joined, I left and immediately set to work to expose Scientology's abuses to the world.

There must be a point of absolution for Exes.

There must be a point at which redemption is allowed.

 

[HolyCow]

I never knew that women were forced to have abortions in the Sea Org.

I knew that the schools absolutely sucked, and that they did not teach history - but I thought that could be "handled".

I knew of no systemic abuse of children.

It was all actively being hidden, with lots and lots of energy going into that charade that was not my energy. It was someone else's. But not mine.

Hmm, I might chase you on this point. Much I didn't know either. But I'll bet you knew that these parents were spending all their Money, going into debt, and spending all their Time at work and Scn. and that "college" was frowned on, and children were called "adults in little bodies" and probably more things I can't think of right now that was general knowledge.
Unless you were in for less than a year, it would be impossible to not know these things.
We all knew something that we dismissed and also helped perpetuate. I guess Taj struck a chord deep down in me. I don't want to hear the wins of weird hairdo's or weird aliens anymore either. peace out!

 

[Markus]

I want to make a statement here about exes who believe that Scientology has some worthwhile attributes.

I often hear comments like “But I had wins,” and “I had gains” when defending Scientology. Many react adversely to general statements like “It is all bad” or “It is all crap.”

One thing people often do not consider is that life and society is as much the product of the bad things that were done as well as the good things.

In America, we were lucky to have the Founders that we did.

But America's development had as much to do with the genocide against the Indians, slavery of Africans, and exploitation of Chinese and other foreign workers as it had to do with the ideals laid out by the Founders.

We would not have arrived where we are without the bad things too. And this is true for every country.

The same is with Scientology. A person can claim they had wins while on staff or as a public pc.

But what made those wins possible was the entirety of the Scientology machine; the exploitation, the injustice, the disconnections, the manipulation and intimidation.

This is as much responsible for getting the wins delivered to you as was the smiling face of the auditor. It is all a part of the Scientology leviathan and process.

Some may say Scientology can exist without the bad things.

But my analogy would be when a person says in baseball they like home runs but do not like outs. And so they believe the game of baseball would be better if there were more home runs and no outs. But you can’t have a baseball game without outs.

So if you want to cherish your wins, then at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that your wins came at the expense of other people’s pain, and the injustice they suffered.

Your wins are the trade-off.

And if you are going to brag and promote the wins and gains you did have, realize that you are telling the many grandparents who will never see their grandkids again, and the parents whose children have disconnected from them, and the grieving family members of suicide victims, or the surviving family members who lost loved ones because they did not seek medical treatment, and all the other people who have been hurt--realize that when you defend your wins and gains you are telling them that their pain is an acceptable trade-off for your gains.

This is why I cringe when I hear people talk about their wins and gains.

It is pouring salt on other people’s wounds.

It is being an apologist for L. Ron Hubbard.

It is the “But he built the Autobahn” defense.

The Anabaptist Jacques

Great post! Thank you Anabaptist Jacques.

Much love

Markus

 

[Alanzo]

No.

The person being conned is not responsible for the Con.

The con man is responsible for the con.

TAJ - your argument is making the victim responsible for the crime.

I do not accept it.

 

[HolyCow]

After 9 years of trying to expose to the world what went on, I am no longer perpetuating it. I am doing something against what went on, and what is going on.

I can say that when I got high enough to see the cracks, when I realized that Scientology was not the group I thought I joined, I left and immediately set to work to expose Scientology's abuses to the world.

There must be a point of absolution for Exes.

There must be a point at which redemption is allowed.

Ah, just as I was closing it all down. Well, Alanzo, now you're talkin! I don't think that's what Taj was saying at all. It's now that we Do know, talking about wins is much like I said above about FLDS kids and hearing the mothers talk about how wonderful, blahblah.
We are all absolved and redeemed just for getting the hell out and not supporting it and speaking out and trying to help other Ex's. Those that still support the tech, I dunno.
I think this all leads to the pitfalls of having a group deprogamming session, you know what I mean? Because, sometimes, it becomes that on some threads. Tolerance and patience for those that are not quite there yet, well, it's hard sometimes for some of us that are, that's all I'm sayin':confused2:

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

No.

The person being conned is not responsible for the Con.

The con man is responsible for the con.

TAJ - your argument is making the victim responsible for the crime.

I do not accept it.

I am not talking about something we didn't know about.

I am talking about what we did know about that we knew was wrong. I am talking about what we did or didn't do.

I am talking about how we looked the other way.

I am talking about as staff members we agreed to handle a certain public a certain way.

Or allow an auditor who we knew was incompetent be given to a pc.

Or the tricks we used to reg someone.

We all found ourselves doing things we felt bad about doing.

We all verbally labelled some other person suppressive or PTS in order to show we were in the know.

I am using we figureatively here, because everyone did something, every one took some action that furthered the oppression of Scientology.

How else could it have happened to us and others if the people in the room weren't doing it?

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Alanzo]

Bullshit. I am not talking about something we didn't know about.

I am talking about what we did know about that we knew was wrong. I am talking about what we did or didn't do.

I am talking about how we looked the other way.

I am talking about as staff members we agreed to handle a certain public a certain way.

Or allow an auditor who we knew was incompetent be given to a pc.

Or the tricks we used to reg someone.

We all found ourselves doing things we felt bad about doing.

We all verbally labelled some other person suppressive or PTS in order to show we were in the know.

I am using we figureatively here, because everyone did something, every one took some action that furthered the oppression of Scientology.

How else could it have happened to us and others if the people in the room weren't doing it?

The Anabaptist Jacques

The same goes on in a frickking car dealership, or a high school football team, or on fraternity pledge week.

These are the crimes that make all the good things unspeakable?

They don't compare.

Mending Nazi uniforms is not the same thing as gassing jews, especially if you have been offered a job working in Aushwitz and you turned it down because there was funny smelling smoke coming out of the smoke stacks, the Commandant looked crazy, and the whole thing just didn't seem right to you. You did not plan, organize, build and run Aushwitz. If it had been up to you, you would have put a nice park there or something.

Everything doesn't equal everything else in Scientology.

 

[HolyCow]

Thanks, Taj, for this posting. It's one of those "key" ones that, like many on this board, have helped me, often where I didn't know I still needed some help.

You're absolutely right, of course. Alonzo's not the only one who might misconstrue what you meant. But I understand and feel the same way.

I was out for a long time, but only this year peeled off the tech wins and a whole lot of deprogramming. It is not an easy road and it is very emotional on so many levels.
Especially finding out all that's been going on since. Jeez, that's been traumatic in and of itself.

I wanted to thank you by reaching out with a suggestion of a tad of tolerance and realizing it takes everyone their own time to get down to it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't say what you have to say! Just maybe with a little compassion and understanding that everyone's trying to work it all out in their own way and time.

But I'll say it again, thank you for saying it. No steenkin' wins.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

The same goes on in a frickking car dealership, or a high school football team, or on fraternity pledge week.

These are the crimes that make all the good things unspeakable?

They don't compare.

Mending Nazi uniforms is not the same thing as gassing jews, especially if you have been offered a job working in Aushwitz and you turned it down because there was funny smelling smoke coming out of the smoke stacks, the Commandant looked crazy, and the whole just didn't seem right to you.

Everything doesn't equal everything else in Scientology.

What you said here has nothing to do with my point.

My point is that the power of oppression in Scientology is not with the myths, it is not with the secret OSA activities, it is not with what you can't see.

The oppression in Scientology is right out in the open.

The power that keeps it goin is not one man at the top.

Don't think of power as a hierachial, top-down force. It isn't.

It is a web, a web that is composed of one-on-one social intercourse at every level of Scientology.

It is the husband who pays for auditing that the wife is reluctant to do.

It is the public Scientologist who FSMs someone onto a course that he knows won't do him any good.

It is the reg that pressures someone to max out his credit cards which he can't pay.

It is the public Scientologist who writes a KR on a friend who "nattered."

It is the 18 year old ethics officer who tells a person they need to disconnect from a family member.

It is a senior who cusses out a junior.

It is all these aggregate actions together that makes the web of power.

We all took part. We all did things we know that were not in the other person's best interests.

That is were the oppression is.

To say that we are not responsible for being part of the web because we didn't know that LRH had lied about his past, or took drugs, or laundered money, or whatever, is intellectually dishonest.

I am not talking about blame.

I am talking about simply raising our consciouness and realizing that we contributed to the web of Scientology.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

Thanks, Taj, for this posting. It's one of those "key" ones that, like many on this board, have helped me, often where I didn't know I still needed some help.

You're absolutely right, of course. Alonzo's not the only one who might misconstrue what you meant. But I understand and feel the same way.

I was out for a long time, but only this year peeled off the tech wins and a whole lot of deprogramming. It is not an easy road and it is very emotional on so many levels.
Especially finding out all that's been going on since. Jeez, that's been traumatic in and of itself.

I wanted to thank you by reaching out with a suggestion of a tad of tolerance and realizing it takes everyone their own time to get down to it. That doesn't mean you shouldn't say what you have to say! Just maybe with a little compassion and understanding that everyone's trying to work it all out in their own way and time.

But I'll say it again, thank you for saying it. No steenkin' wins.

Thanks for the advice, and you're welcome. I do get a bit forceful, maybe too forceful. I'm gald we are allworking this out together.
Thanks again.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Alanzo]

What you said here has nothing to do with my point.

My point is that the power of oppression in Scientology is not with the myths, it is not with the secret OSA activities, it is not with what you can't see.

The oppression in Scientology is right out in the open.

The power that keeps it goin is not one man at the top.

Don't think of power as a hierachial, top-down force. It isn't.

It is a web, a web that is composed of one-on-one social intercourse at every level of Scientology.

It is the husband who pays for auditing that the wife is reluctant to do.

It is the public Scientologist who FSMs someone onto a course that he knows won't do him any good.

It is the reg that pressures someone to max out his credit cards which he can't pay.

It is the public Scientologist who writes a KR on a friend who "nattered."

It is the 18 year old ethics officer who tells a person they need to disconnect from a family member.

It is a senior who cusses out a junior.

It is all these aggregate actions together that makes the web of power.

We all took part. We all did things we know that were not in the other person's best interests.

That is were the oppression is.

To say that we are not responsible for being part of the web because we didn't know that LRH had lied about his past, or took drugs, or laundered money, or whatever, is intellectually dishonest.

I am not talking about blame.

I am talking about simply raising our consciouness and realizing that we contributed to the web of Scientology.

The Anabaptist Jacques

OK then.

Why didn't you just say so!

You had me scraping fetuses out of wombs, and holding them down while I did it!

Jeezus!

 

[AnonyMary]

I want to make a statement here about exes who believe that Scientology has some worthwhile attributes.....

I don't think that the reality of it all could have been said any better than that. I try to be diplomatic and respectful of the lovers and haters, especially when the person has only been out a few years at the most, because I know it takes communication, time, facts and reflection to see the grander picture beyond ones good and or bad experiences in scientology. But the plains facts are as you stated. When we were in, the pressure to conform was tremendous. The relief was in ones 'personal gains' or so it seemed. The fact is, the high from the wins was never permanent and often one went from service to service hoping to regain or maintain the high which kept the 'entheta' of life at bay. In the SO, not getting put on the RPF is incentive enough to tolerate all the rest of it.

Leaving Scientology is a process of seeking truth to be set free from the lies. One cannot get there without inspecting the good and the bad (as you wrote). Freedom to think critically and wisely is something Scientology does not want and we were programmed that way everytime we studied. I know this from self inspection of my past experiences as a course sup and word clearer. One had to agree with LRH or they had a MisU. That was 'the tech' The group reinforced this by having members write KRs and Chits on anyone not conforming or agreeing. After a while, it became second nature to conform and put blinders on to any observations that were contrary.

Recovery from Scientology is similar to what happens to a child as he /she grows into an adult and realizes that their parents are not all that they thought them to be. Some parents are worse than others and all have flaws but in Scientology, one is never allowed to grow up to be independent. Just the opposite. Sadly, even abused children tend to love their abusing parents, and so it is with those who stay despite the abuses and mental manipulations. The hope of the next win, the recollection of the past wins make it so it's hard to see the dangers. Crack cocaine works like that, too.

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

OK then.

Why didn't you just say so!

You had me scraping fetuses out of wombs, and holding them down while I did it!

Jeezus!

Well that brings me to my next point...just kidding.

The Anabaptist Jacques

 

[Panda Termint]

TAJ, hindsight is certainly a marvellous thing.

In my opinion, you are essentially correct in saying that everything good that came from scientology came at an unacceptably high price.

It's probably true of many things in life; gasoline, Nikes, batteries, baseballs, McDonalds, Defence, electricity, salvation, redemption, comfort etc, etc, etc. but that seems to be the nature of our society.

Should we deny what good we found in scientology or just not mention it?

 

[HolyCow]

"Thanks for the advice, and you're welcome. I do get a bit forceful, maybe too forceful. I'm gald we are allworking this out together.
Thanks again.

The Anabaptist Jacques

The whole point is to be effective in helping others who are trying, that's all, there's nothing else. Well, not the whole point. You just gotta scream it out sometimes, don't ya?!
I've felt the same. I'll still refer those who say otherwise to tell me they didn't want to rip out those FLDS "mothers" expressing their "wins" on their religion ways about their childrens' abuses. Gag me

 

[The Anabaptist Jacques]

TAJ, hindsight is certainly a marvellous thing.

In my opinion, you are essentially correct in saying that everything good that came from scientology came at an unacceptably high price.

It's probably true of many things in life; gasoline, Nikes, batteries, baseballs, McDonalds, Defence, electricity, salvation, redemption, comfort etc, etc, etc. but that seems to be the nature of our society.

Should we deny what good we found in scientology or just not mention it?

As I said, we should not wear our gains as medals. It wouldn't hurt to be a little more concientious that the gains you speak of came at the price of another's pain. I'm talking about a raised consciousness on this level, that's all.

The Anabaptist Jacques