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Flagdown 2014: media coverage, etc

failboat

Patron with Honors
For someone to host an anti-Scientology event, whether it be 1 day or 5 days, who shuts out some of the people who have done the most work in the anti-Scientology movement, doesn't make any sense. ....It's a huge outpoint.

Smurf may not have set up a 5 day anti-Scientology event, but he has put in a lot of time, in the So Cal area, working to protest, video, post and expose that lousy cult.

You're attacking the wrong person.

"Outpoint?"

I was attacked, by the way, which merited the response that I gave. I don't characterize my responses as attacks, either - they are factual statements.

Smurf has certainly put in a lot of effort, but never a conference gathering speakers from multiple continents, for multiple days.

The people attacking AMA are the ones attacking the wrong person. She is actually getting something done, while the latter complain about it.
 

Smurf

Gold Meritorious SP
Smurf has certainly put in a lot of effort, but never a conference gathering speakers from multiple continents, for multiple days.

We have no need to put on a 5-day conference to get the message across here in LA about Scientology. We had a 1-night press conference 4 years ago that had more attendees & media than are present at Flag Down. Unlike Laura, we didn't ban anyone from attending this public event.

[video=youtube;jwD0bHPYbq8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwD0bHPYbq8[/video]

I donated $$ for the Flagdown event, yet Laura said I was not invited. Why is that Failboat? And where are all the Clearwater residents the Flagdown event was supposed to attract?

Laura commented last night on WWP that 2/3 of the crowd were unhappy with her. She was, at least, honest about that. One more thing, Failboat, I've protested far more many times in Los Angeles than either you or Laura has, so please stop playing the clueless apologist.
 

FoTi

Crusader
Why should Mark have stayed away from what was publicized as a "public event" and financed by public donations?

This was not a private affair paid for by Laura Flynn. She took it on herself to dictate who could & not come to the event. Who gave her the right to decide this?? So far, co-organizer Pete G. has remained quiet about what happened.

What happened to Mark & Tom was only the tip of the iceberg, Mary. Other critics were banned from the event, not by Pete, but by Laura.

Here are the guidelines from.....the Permanent Injunction. It won't let me copy and paste the quotes, so scroll down about half way to the Conclusions....1 thru 21....it's not that long, but it does lay down what the rules are for both sides.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205666116/Permanent-Injunction-against-the-Lisa-McPherson-Trust

It's my understanding that Flagdown 2014 is nowhere near any of the church property and in that case this Injunction would not even apply in relation to this event.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
You getting anything done lately? Any major media press conferences?

I'm aware, by the way, of the countless times you've protested in SoCal. You need not remind me, and calling me "clueless" is another attack. I admit to being an apologist for AMA, because there are precious few of them here. People who get things done should have apologists - and you've certainly done more than your share.

I will agree with anyone that she is abrasive - many of the long-term people in the Anti-Scn movement have grown prickly.

I will not let you continue to attack me, or try to lump me into a group of "clueless" "blamers & deniers," though. I'll be refuting your attacks as they continue. I guess I'll catch up on conference videos later.
 

FoTi

Crusader
You getting anything done lately? Any major media press conferences?

I'm aware, by the way, of the countless times you've protested in SoCal. You need not remind me, and calling me "clueless" is another attack. I admit to being an apologist for AMA, because there are precious few of them here. People who get things done should have apologists - and you've certainly done more than your share.

I will agree with anyone that she is abrasive - many of the long-term people in the Anti-Scn movement have grown prickly.

I will not let you continue to attack me, or try to lump me into a group of "clueless" "blamers & deniers," though. I'll be refuting your attacks as they continue. I guess I'll catch up on conference videos later.

Being abrasive or prickly is one thing....sicing the police on an ally is another.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
Being abrasive or prickly is one thing....sicing the police on an ally is another.

He was hired for security for the event, which leads myself and others to assume he is an off-duty cop. He was already present when the people who were not invited arrived. He wasn't acting as a "cop" or "the police," but as security.
 
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FoTi

Crusader
He was hired for security for the event, which leads myself and others to assume he is an off-duty cop. He was already present when the people who were not invited arrived. He wasn't acting as a "cop" or "the police," but as security.

Cop, rent-a-cop, security, whatever....you don't turn on your own players. Laura treated them much the same as Scientology would treat them. It ain't right. :no:
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
FoTi, did you read this post from TG1?

Purple,

I was really trying NOT to have to type this here. That's why I referred you to WWP. It's not a simple issue that's at debate here. But very briefly (and therefore probably inadequately) here's the major issue:

People involved in this dispute about whether Bunker should or should not attend Flag Down all have some rational basis (and probably also some irrational, very personal bases) for their conflicting positions.

The rational basis for their disagreements are disagreements about the interpretation of a 13-year-old (ordered in 2001) permanent injunction against protesting against the Church of Scientology in Clearwater. This permanent injunction is very broadly and vaguely worded and will be in force indefinitely (with no end date) against eight specific people, two of whom are Mark Bunker and Tory Bezazian [Christman].

However, here's another little wrinkle about the permanent injunction: It also bars "... officers, agents, servants, employees and persons and entities in actual concert or participation with them who receive actual notice of this injunction." Yesterday morning, the church had a copy of this permanent injunction delivered to the home of the Clearwater anon organizer of Flag Down.

Here's the 2001 permanent injunction for your reading pleasure:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205666116/Permanent-Injunction-against-the-Lisa-McPherson-Trust

But, as many people are saying, Flag Down is not protesting. It's a conference. So why bar Bunker from attending?

Because Bunker's violation (or not) of the injunction by attending Flag Down events wouldn't stop the cult from complaining against the Clearwater anon who's organizing Flag Down. She would then have to hire a lawyer and fight that battle in court. And she doesn't have the kind of money to finance that kind of legal battle. That's essentially why she doesn't want Bunker at the conference -- to protect herself and other Clearwater anons and other Flag Down attendees from legal harassment by the cult.

There is very understandable debate about the validity of this injunction to stop anyone from associating with Bunker at Flag Down. And yes, although IANAL, I don't think the injunction is valid to keep anyone from associating with Bunker at the Flag Down Conference.

However, several years ago, the cult already had this very same Clearwater anon Flag Down organizer arrested and charged in connection with her protests at Flag at that time. It was apparently a very unpleasant and expensive experience for her, and she doesn't want to repeat that awful experience. Apparently, she is now (as they say) erring on the side of caution.

And just to prove that the cult will use their old LMT permanent injunction to charge people who have no direct association with the LMT and weren't named in the injunction, have you ever heard of Shawn Lonsdale? If not, look him up. From Wikipedia: "Lonsdale was subpoenaed by the Church of Scientology in 2006, and they accused him of being affiliated with the Lisa McPherson Trust, a group critical of Scientology which was restricted in where it could protest in Clearwater." There's more.

In short, although I certainly wish the Clearwater anon who's organizing the Flag Down conference had better public-facing skills, I can at least (while putting myself in her shoes) understand her concerns.

It's not a simple situation.

I'm not typing anything else in this thread. If anyone wants to learn more -- please go over to WWP and do your own homework.

TG1

I get the fundamental principle that "you shouldn't turn on your own," and I think we all agree on it, but there was a good, justifying reason.

You want to talk shit about AMA, then why don't you offer to pay off any potential legal fees that might result from allowing these people to attend the conference? Put it in writing, get it notarized - maybe even put some money in escrow, just in case - if you really believe there is nothing to fear from the LMT injunction or the Church of Scientology abusing it in court.
 
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FoTi

Crusader
FoTi, did you read this post from TG1?



I get the fundamental principal that "you shouldn't turn on your own," and I think we all agree on it, but there was a good, justifying reason.

You want to talk shit about AMA, then why don't you offer to pay off any potential legal fees that might result from allowing these people to attend the conference? Put it in writing, get it notarized - maybe even put some money in escrow, just in case - if you really believe there is nothing to fear from the LMT injunction or the Church of Scientology abusing it in court.

Did you read the Injunction?

It doesn't even relate to the event they are having in Largo.

Look at what the guidelines/rules are, that are laid out in the Injunction.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
FoTi, did you read this post from TG1?



I get the fundamental principal that "you shouldn't turn on your own," and I think we all agree on it, but there was a good, justifying reason.

You want to talk shit about AMA, then why don't you offer to pay off any potential legal fees that might result from allowing these people to attend the conference? Put it in writing, get it notarized - maybe even put some money in escrow, just in case - if you really believe there is nothing to fear from the LMT injunction or the Church of Scientology abusing it in court.

FEAR. Ironic that that's why exes shut up and didn't speak out for twenty years after we left. Many anons despise us for that, but there it is, isn't it? Now you know what it's like. At the end of the day we each face it or not. And that's what makes people like the old guard brave. They live with this shit all the time. And you know what you're made of by how much you compromise - as Denise talks about "the great compromise". We have discussed it often.
 

failboat

Patron with Honors
Did you read the Injunction?

It doesn't even relate to the event they are having in Largo.

Look at what the guidelines/rules are, that are laid out in the Injunction.


I'm too lazy to type out reasoned responses when others have already made them and they're good enough to copy and paste.

https://whyweprotest.net/community/...unction-discussion.118319/page-2#post-2451292

http://www.scribd.com/doc/205666116/Permanent-Injunction-against-the-Lisa-McPherson-Trust

Please note the language "officers, agents, servants, employees and persons and entities in actual concert or participation with them who receive actual notice of this injunction" Vague wording is vague enough for the cult to abuse it and try to attach it to anyone "working in concert" or "as an agent of" those named, including Bunker. If Bunker donated money to Flag Down would that make those attending"agents"? If he attends would those attending "be in concert with" Bunker? There is no mention of where these actions could take place, which is why Shawn Lonsdale was served and why Bunker should have stayed away.

We can argue semantics but everyone here knows the lengths the cult will go to in order to stop us. To believe otherwise would be foolish. Anons always err on the side of caution. It only makes sense for anyone who does not wish to be served with the injunction to stay away from anyone named in the injunction.

Right or wrong, the injunction should be viewed as a threat to our shared goals.


FEAR is also why we wear masks and do our level best to hide our identities. Those who do get namefagged in the process of accomplishing shit earn their apologists the hard way. The fact that they are not "anonymous" anymore shouldn't be used to ridicule them if they happen to inhabit WWP or associate with Anons.
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
I'm too lazy to type out reasoned responses when others have already made them and they're good enough to copy and paste.

https://whyweprotest.net/community/...unction-discussion.118319/page-2#post-2451292




FEAR is also why we wear masks and do our level best to hide our identities. Those who do get namefagged in the process of accomplishing shit earn their apologists the hard way. The fact that they are not "anonymous" anymore shouldn't be used to ridicule them if they happen to inhabit WWP or associate with Anons.

Well, I'm not staying away from Tory. Fuck 'em.
 

tetloj

Silver Meritorious Patron
Thanks for hanging around to offer a different perspective Failboat.

Emotions are high and you are engaging in a way that can only help the discussion.

The second day appears to have gone swimmingly from what I'm reading.

The videos of the speakers should be the legacy of Flag Down 2014.

:thumbsup:
 

Lexing Jenkins

Patron with Honors
FEAR. Ironic that that's why exes shut up and didn't speak out for twenty years after we left. Many anons despise us for that, but there it is, isn't it? Now you know what it's like. At the end of the day we each face it or not. And that's what makes people like the old guard brave. They live with this shit all the time. And you know what you're made of by how much you compromise - as Denise talks about "the great compromise". We have discussed it often.


Sometimes you just have to let the COS shape your anti-COS event...
 

Smurf

Gold Meritorious SP
FoTi, did you read this post from TG1? You talk shit about AMA, then why don't you offer to pay off any potential legal fees that might result from allowing these people to attend the conference? Put it in writing, get it notarized - maybe even put some money in escrow, just in case - if you really believe there is nothing to fear from the LMT injunction or the Church of Scientology abusing it in court.

LOL. Seriously? Laura (AMA) was handled an injunction before the event began & it did not prevent the event from going on. In fact, she commented on WWP the injunction was going into the trash. Sure doesn't sound like she's concerned about any lawsuits. Sheesh.

You're just blathering nonsense to justify Laura's regretfully, bad behavior.

laughing-smiley-face.gif

By the way, Arnie Lerma, Michael Tilse, Pete Griffiths & John McGhee are all Facebook friends of Mark Bunker, thus one could allude they are "associates" of Mark. Why hasn't Laura banned them??
 

Purple Rain

Crusader
There's fear and there's smart. Here's what Tory has to say about Flag Down and the injunction and why she stayed away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voH3J26RKag

Tory also said:

Arrrrrrgh! Bunker called me too, after being kicked out with Tom Smith, also. Big mistake. Mark Bunker has done more exposing $cientology than many others. Thanks, Tony, for posting this. She didn't like him? Ridiculous. There is a confusion about "The Injunction". This Injunction (created in 2000) was ONLY regarding PICKETING. This Conference is *not* a Picket! Please help sort this out...as once more they are *trying* to set a standard. Love to ALL :) Tory/Magoo
 
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