Johnd's story

[Johnd]

Hi John,

I knew a few people on the early experiments who said they ran in rubber suits.
I didn't think to ask then but have often wondered if they ran in the rubber suits that used to be called diving dry suits or did they use the neoprene wet suits or something else ?

Just curious.

Never heard why the original program was scrapped...probably a whim.

We ran/ exercised in rubber or vinyl suits. They weren't diving dry suits or wet suits and I don't know what the manufacturer's intended purpose was. They were full body suits. Obviously they were impermeable to air and so caused very serious body heating and sweating. I seem to recall that they had elastic rings at the wrists and the ankles and so were snug there. Think I had a hood too. But it was long ago. MANY staff at ccla did it.

I suspect it was canceled because it was too dangerous, but certainly don't know. This was a pilot program, so it would have been monitored by people in Hubbard's immediate service, probably with reports to hubbard. Perhaps there were some medically negative results, but I just don't know of any besides perhaps mine as recounted in part 12. There may be an ex or two in the know on this. ????

john

 

[Johnd]

John, I just started reading the thread and your comment re the sweat program and recalling HCOBs brought this to mind:

http://www.lermanet.com/cisar/survey/bq.htm
Title: Expert: sauna decreases intelligence
Berlin, Germany
October 9, 2001
translated by an ex member, Joe Cisar

Thanks. It does stand to reason that overheating the body every day for prolonged periods is asking for trouble. Every year you hear about kids trying out for football teams dying of heat stroke or suffering serious kidney damage, etc.

Seems to me also that a lower IQ would make it easier to rationalize staying in Scientology.

j

 

[Gib]

Thanks. It does stand to reason that overheating the body every day for prolonged periods is asking for trouble. Every year you hear about kids trying out for football teams dying of heat stroke or suffering serious kidney damage, etc.

Seems to me also that a lower IQ would make it easier to rationalize staying in Scientology.

j

my bold above.

When I was in High School we had triple practice days in the beginning for football training, I think two weeks. It was hot where I lived and very hard to do these 3 practices in one day. I think an hour long or so. But, if you made it, you were in shape and you felt like you could conguer anything. So one got in shape, then during the remainder of the practice season, we had double practice days, and we worked on skills because we were in shape.

Take a adult who is out of shape, make him run and sweat for a little, you don't sit in the box for 4 hours STRAIGHT - I never did, and I will tell you he will feel great.

Take an adult who is out of shape and have him do some regular exercises for a 2-3 month program, and he will feel much better.

Call it a purif and connect it to some religious or spiritual program. Of course one will have wins.

It's all PR connecting it to some religious cult and their program of spiritual enhancement. Or more specifically, calling it BLOCKAGE on one's spiritual enhancement.

Get in shape once again, and you will fell better and no need to spend 3000 bucks doing the purif. But, you can't as you all know. It's part of the bridge and you must do it.

 

[Johnd]

A WDC mission came to the Toronto org in 1980. I was the Flag Rep, taken off my post, and put on as the IC of the "Sweat Out Program pilot". It was also being run in some other orgs too (though I didn't know which ones).

The "rubber suits" were not diving suits, but really thin cheap "vinyl" - thin plastic sort of thingies. I had to line up various YMCAs, fitness centers and even saunas in hotels to manage to get ALL the staff onto the program. The staff were the guinea pigs!

THAT was Hubbard's "research" . . . . .

I remember being at one location, and 7 or 8 of us were running on stationary running machines with the suits on. Then we would take off the suits and head into the saunas. I think the suits were taken out of the program after about 2 weeks.

Back then we did it for about 2 MONTHS, 5 hours every day! I think I attested after 67 days.

I would almost PUKE when I would have to gulp down an entire FULL CUP of OIL!

But we had so much fun, playing monopoly in the sauna, playing cards, telling old drug stories, etc.

And Armelle Pearse (ED Toronto Day) was something else in that cute little bikini!

For what it is worth I saw two different women "turn on" the exact OLD residual outlines from bathing suits they had worn when having gotten horribly sun-burned (many years earlier)! The niacin? Mind over matter because they believed it was supposed to happen? Either way, the physical (body) WAS afffected by the mind (or by the niacin), because during to program I saw these previous sunburns "turn on and off". So did many others. :confused2:

Hi Gadfly.

This sounds like a later, hybrid incarnation. Apparently hubbard wouldn't let go of the original OT insight that lsd and other deadly drug residues were stored in body fat and could be made to come out through the pores.

The 'niacin runs out radiation' breakthrough must have been a similar flash of knowingness. I also did the post 'rubber suit' 'Purif' later in the 80s but never witnessed the bikini line phenomenon you saw in Canada. Who knows what that was. One of those inexplicable things. In retrospect the only strange thing I witnessed on the purif was the fact that I was not only doing it but had actually paid to do it. (I was off staff and out of the s.o. by then.).

I recall the step by step proceess of building up to a flushless 5000 mg (?) of niacin. I did so using tablets. Toward the end though I for some reason switched to powder and got a huge, unwelcome flush.

One thing that did happen: I almost quit smoking while on the purif. But come to think of it I almost quit smoking a lot of times.

I also recall feeling a state of physical 'purity' when I finally finished. I'm not joking. Did you feel anything like this? I even worried about being able to maintain this feeling. But like all the grand states I attained in scn, it didn't last.

j

 

[Johnd]

Hi John:

Lakey here. Just to let the board know, John and I were on staff together at CCLA in the early 70's.

I just started reading your thread and read about the sweat out program. I wasn't even aware that there was such a thing before the "Purif" came out.

I am going to read all the posts here and then write some more meaty comments to you in a day or two. I hope you are covering or will cover some of the early CC stuff from 1970 to the end of 1973. It would be great to read things from your perspective in the Qual Division as to what was going on!
Lakey

Hi lakey.

I definitely plan to go into that stuff soon.

j

 

[Johnd]

Per first bold above, don't you think the same is true for the release of DMSMH in 1950 and then scientology? Staff and public became the "research" data to be complied into HCOB's and HCO Pl's, and lectures and books. Thus the work was free.

Per the second bold, that was true for me as well. I had sunburn's turn on in the outline of a bathing suit as well as a t-shirt were my arms, neck, face turned red, but my mid torso did not.

Don't know who you're addressing, but to me using the word 'research' in connection with hubbard can only be a sarcasm. To the best of my knowledge there was no research prior to the release of DMSMH. It was faked. Later there was plenty of experience with dianetic style therapy, all of which tended to show that the projected results simply weren't there.

The next great leap came with the 'discovery' of what hubbard called 'service facsimiles' in the very early 50s. This explained why dianetics couldn't make 'clears.' Preclears were actually holding onto engrams and chains of engrams because they were of 'service' to the preclear, meaning that disability was useful in getting support from others. (See Advanced Procedures and Axioms.)

As far as I know there was no research that led to this either. Or to any of the other great 'breakthroughs' that followed. They were just a succession of explanations and promised remedies for the obvious failure of what had previously been promoted and sold.

I gather from reading what some people on pilot project lines with hubbard have said that there was some sort of testing of new processes. These were, I understand always done on staff and the object was to see if the process could be taken by a skilled auditor to the usual 'f/n cog vgis. Not of course to see if the guinea pig experienced some lasting gain. According to 'Cowboy' on the thread 'trepidatious' though, people were generally afraid to bring hubbard any news that his ideas were less than brilliant in actual practice.

The early sweat program and purification rundown pilot projects were also done on staff. To me it seems obvious that the extreme things staff were required to do were reckless and dangerous. We were lab rats for a moron lost in a fantasy world of grandiose self-delusion.

I've heard of but not seen that niacin/sunburn effect. The idea of course was that niacin would 'run out' radiation, and sunburn is radiation damage to the skin. Now when I think about the 'run out' idea it seems a bit unclear. Running somethng out in the cult meant deliberately 'restimulating' something and then repeatedly having the pc go over it and recount what happened until there was no 'charge' left. This was supposed to result improvement of whatever condition was being addressed.

So if you were running out 'radiation' did that mean that you were fixing the damage caused by the radiation? Otherwise what would be the point? Repeated sun exposure can cause damage to the skin, even skin cancer. So 'running out' solar radiation should have meant that existing damage to the skin was reversed. Did that happen with you when you did the purif?

j

 

[Gadfly]

Hi Gadfly.

I also recall feeling a state of physical 'purity' when I finally finished. I'm not joking. Did you feel anything like this? I even worried about being able to maintain this feeling. But like all the grand states I attained in scn, it didn't last.

j

I felt somewhat "better" after it, but not that much really.

I have done quite a few fasts, toxin cleanses, and intensive deep cellular cleanses over the years (colon cleanses with lots of psyllium and bentonite, herbs, plant nutrition, with no eating of ANY solid food for 7-14 days). After doing these I feel MUCH better than anything I EVER felt from the "purif".

I recently went back to a total vegan diet with no meat, no dairy, no artificial anything (almost 2 months), stopped smoking weed (going on 6 weeks), stopped coffee, knocked off ALL processed foods of any kind, got back on a decent exercise regimen, and along with daily meditation and "extroverting activities outdoors" (I live in the mountains), I pretty much feel better than EVER in my entire life. I think Gib had it right above. Exercise will help ANYBODY. For the life of me I can't guess how some coffee-guzzling, chain-smoking, meat-eating Sea Org executive, who yells with great emotional volume as a matter of routine, can possibly imagine that he or she is on a "spiritual" path of any sort. :confused2:

These people are intensely deluled.

As a note, when I was a Flag Rep I received surveys to do from INT. The surveys were designed to find out what "buttons" and images the public had deeply and chronically associated with ideas of "cleanliness", "purity", and "health". The picture of the "bubbling brook" on Purif Promo came directly from these survey results. Scientology promo is filled with images designed to create an appropriate "reaction" or "response".

The detoxifying I have done with other programs such as the Clean Me Out Program FAR EXCEEDED anything I got from the so-called "purification rundown". I think that the Purif is just more goofiness parading as "science". Hubbard pushed Adelle Davis in some policies (she died of cancer), and Hubbard had NO IDEA of what leads to health. His simplistic statement that the "spirit heals the body", while ignoring all physical realities, is mindless (and I am someone who probably considers that to be true more than most). :confused2:

On the "feeling" and "maintaining the feeling", whether with the purif or with auditing, what most people fail to notice or recognize is that these experiences all involve a CONTEXT and are RELATIVE. They CAN'T be "constant" because they involved a comparison. The feeling of a blow-out SEEMS major, because compared to feeling "caved in" or "stuck tightly inside" before, well, the CONTRAST manifests as some "major change". But if you are feeling bright, light and sparkly all of the time, there isn't any longer any experience (or need) for "blow outs".

I have zero concern for "blowing out" or "line charging". THAT was a "phase" in my life. It was "back then" when I was somebody else. But, I went through that, and I moved on. Maybe auditing would affect me if I did some more, now, but FIRST, I would have to have the desire to CHANGE something in myself, to achieve something, to handle some problem or ruin in alignment with Hubbard's model of reality. Simply, I had NO INTEREST AT ALL. My model of reality is SO FAR different now than what it was when I was involved with Scn that I doubt anything would "bite". My needle would simply F/N . . . . . . (except on questions like "do you have any bad thoughts about Scientology, LRH or David Miscavige"?)

I haven't at all abandoned a desire to "improve", and I follow my own path these days. This path is so very far removed from almost anything within Hubbard's mindless paradigm. Sure, I would love a world without war, insanity and crime, and I often visualize such a reality in my meditations, BUT, Scientology has no workable methods to ever possibly achieve such a thing. It is a PR SLOGAN. It is BAIT. It is a pretentious ideal bandied about and used as a lure for good-hearted people.

I suspect that most people get dramatic gains, when they do, because they highly resonate with the positive PR and idealistic hype of Scientology (for awhile at least). The person's OWN decency and ideals align with Hubbard's lies and pretense for at least awhile. And, there is no doubt that auditing can and does direct a person's attention at areas that have bothered him or her (at least in this life, and metaphorically, and imaginatively, in so-called "past lives").

ANYBODY will benefit from "self-examination" at some point in his or her life. Things like ARC SW, Life Repair, the grades, and the various flows of Dianetics cause self-examination to SOME degree. A major problem though is that as one clears out some of the garbage, one concurrently absorbs a large amount of NEW GARBAGE in terms of the Scientology concepts and views about a great many things.

I actually have the view that some Scientology processes can and do "work" on some people, especially early on with the lower bridge, but the auditing results also suffer from diminishing returns over extended time. As the gains from the auditing decrease, as the big moments of blow-outs and key-outs diminish, the BELIEF SYSTEM implanted from the indoctrination MUST take over (or one will leave). Also, one can imagine almost anything into (subjective) existence. THAT is part of the reason for the "effectiveness" of Scientology auditing. It actually involves forms of visualization where one is tricked into using his or her creative imagination without knowing what is actually happening. Hubbard learned all this when he dabbled in magick and the occult. He USED this information against, and to manipulate and deceive his followers.

P.S. Yes, I also remember the elastic around the ankles and wrists on the vinyl suits. It got VERY hot inside the suits.

 

[lkwdblds]

I felt somewhat "better" after it, but not that much really.

I have done quite a few fasts, toxin cleanses, and intensive deep cellular cleanses over the years (colon cleanses with lots of psyllium and bentonite, herbs, plant nutrition, with no eating of ANY solid food for 7-14 days). After doing these I feel MUCH better than anything I EVER felt from the "purif".

I recently went back to a total vegan diet with no meat, no dairy, no artificial anything (almost 2 months), stopped smoking weed (going on 6 weeks), stopped coffee, knocked off ALL processed foods of any kind, got back on a decent exercise regimen, and along with daily meditation and "extroverting activities outdoors" (I live in the mountains), I pretty much feel better than EVER in my entire life. I think Gib had it right above. Exercise will help ANYBODY. For the life of me I can't guess how some coffee-guzzling, chain-smoking, meat-eating Sea Org executive, who yells with great emotional volume as a matter of routine, can possibly imagine that he or she is on a "spiritual" path of any sort. :confused2:

These people are intensely deluled.

As a note, when I was a Flag Rep I received surveys to do from INT. The surveys were designed to find out what "buttons" and images the public had deeply and chronically associated with ideas of "cleanliness", "purity", and "health". The picture of the "bubbling brook" on Purif Promo came directly from these survey results. Scientology promo is filled with images designed to create an appropriate "reaction" or "response".

The detoxifying I have done with other programs such as the Clean Me Out Program FAR EXCEEDED anything I got from the so-called "purification rundown". I think that the Purif is just more goofiness parading as "science". Hubbard pushed Adelle Davis in some policies (she died of cancer), and Hubbard had NO IDEA of what leads to health. His simplistic statement that the "spirit heals the body", while ignoring all physical realities, is mindless (and I am someone who probably considers that to be true more than most). :confused2:

On the "feeling" and "maintaining the feeling", whether with the purif or with auditing, what most people fail to notice or recognize is that these experiences all involve a CONTEXT and are RELATIVE. They CAN'T be "constant" because they involved a comparison. The feeling of a blow-out SEEMS major, because compared to feeling "caved in" or "stuck tightly inside" before, well, the CONTRAST manifests as some "major change". But if you are feeling bright, light and sparkly all of the time, there isn't any longer any experience (or need) for "blow outs".

I have zero concern for "blowing out" or "line charging". THAT was a "phase" in my life. It was "back then" when I was somebody else. But, I went through that, and I moved on. Maybe auditing would affect me if I did some more, now, but FIRST, I would have to have the desire to CHANGE something in myself, to achieve something, to handle some problem or ruin in alignment with Hubbard's model of reality. Simply, I had NO INTEREST AT ALL. My model of reality is SO FAR different now than what it was when I was involved with Scn that I doubt anything would "bite". My needle would simply F/N . . . . . . (except on questions like "do you have any bad thoughts about Scientology, LRH or David Miscavige"?)

I haven't at all abandoned a desire to "improve", and I follow my own path these days. This path is so very far removed from almost anything within Hubbard's mindless paradigm. Sure, I would love a world without war, insanity and crime, and I often visualize such a reality in my meditations, BUT, Scientology has no workable methods to ever possibly achieve such a thing. It is a PR SLOGAN. It is BAIT. It is a pretentious ideal bandied about and used as a lure for good-hearted people.

I suspect that most people get dramatic gains, when they do, because they highly resonate with the positive PR and idealistic hype of Scientology (for awhile at least). The person's OWN decency and ideals align with Hubbard's lies and pretense for at least awhile. And, there is no doubt that auditing can and does direct a person's attention at areas that have bothered him or her (at least in this life, and metaphorically, and imaginatively, in so-called "past lives").

ANYBODY will benefit from "self-examination" at some point in his or her life. Things like ARC SW, Life Repair, the grades, and the various flows of Dianetics cause self-examination to SOME degree. A major problem though is that as one clears out some of the garbage, one concurrently absorbs a large amount of NEW GARBAGE in terms of the Scientology concepts and views about a great many things.

I actually have the view that some Scientology processes can and do "work" on some people, especially early on with the lower bridge, but the auditing results also suffer from diminishing returns over extended time. As the gains from the auditing decrease, as the big moments of blow-outs and key-outs diminish, the BELIEF SYSTEM implanted from the indoctrination MUST take over (or one will leave). Also, one can imagine almost anything into (subjective) existence. THAT is part of the reason for the "effectiveness" of Scientology auditing. It actually involves forms of visualization where one is tricked into using his or her creative imagination without knowing what is actually happening. Hubbard learned all this when he dabbled in magick and the occult. He USED this information against, and to manipulate and deceive his followers.

P.S. Yes, I also remember the elastic around the ankles and wrists on the vinyl suits. It got VERY hot inside the suits.

Lot's of good points and interesting reading in your post as usua! Just some further comments on the subject of Hubbard and health. I remember a bulletin called "Pep". That one was not too bad. In it I believe that he talked against sugary, high carbohydrate snack foods as were commonly dispensed in vending machines. He pushed protein, which he said would build a body. It was nothing new, even at that time in the 70's. The Health Food books were already campaigning against sugary snacks foods and the role of protein had been known for a long time. However, once Hubbard put his stamp of approval on eliminating sugary snacks, the Scio public got on his bandwagon.

Your remarks on Adele Davis were interesting. The last time I visited Flag in 1999, I had just started on pills for high blood pressure. At Flag I was put on a routing form to see the MLO (Medical Liason Office). The first thing the MLO ordered me to do was to read Adele Davis.

Now, this was in 1999 and her books were popular in 1971 and in the interim she had died from cancer. Still, her books were the only thing which the MLO had in her arsenal. Back in the early 70's Hubbard had recommended her books and in Scientology something either had to be written by Hubbard, the usual case, or in rare instances recommended by Hubbard to be able to be used in an Org.

Since Hubbard died recommending only Adele Davis books on nutrition, I wouldn't be surprised if today's current MLO's still assigning Adele Davis's books to be read. Her stuff is 40 years old and hopelessly out of date. They were pretty good info in their time but in the field of health and nutrition, 40 year old knowledge is hopelessly outdated.

Thanks also for your last paragraph on workability. I think that is a very good explanation of what's going on when things are found to be workable.
Lakey

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

Thanks. It does stand to reason that overheating the body every day for prolonged periods is asking for trouble. Every year you hear about kids trying out for football teams dying of heat stroke or suffering serious kidney damage, etc.

Seems to me also that a lower IQ would make it easier to rationalize staying in Scientology.

j

The real trick is making you think that you're getting smarter, ya know, like giving you an IQ test 4 times, smiling at contrived and silly wins while out the back-door go yer brains piece by subtle piece, along with generally substantial amounts of filthy, nasty money you don't need as much as you do another Hubbard Soul & Conscious Repair Kit...

Your story about the sweat-suits sortta reminds me of the Saran-Wrap fad years ago, that didn't last very long either after a few twits expired. *shudderz*

 

[Gadfly]

Lot's of good points and interesting reading in your post as usual! Just some further comments on the subject of Hubbard and health. I remember a bulletin called "Pep". That one was not too bad. In it I believe that he talked against sugary, high carbohydrate snack foods as were commonly dispensed in vending machines. He pushed protein, which he said would build a body. It was nothing new, even at that time in the 70's. The Health Food books were already campaigning against sugary snacks foods and the role of protein had been known for a long time. However, once Hubbard put his stamp of approval on eliminating sugary snacks, the Scio public got on his bandwagon.

Your remarks on Adele Davis were interesting. The last time I visited Flag in 1999, I had just started on pills for high blood pressure. At Flag I was put on a routing form to see the MLO (Medical Liaison Office). The first thing the MLO ordered me to do was to read Adele Davis.

Now, this was in 1999 and her books were popular in 1971 and in the interim she had died from cancer. Still, her books were the only thing which the MLO had in her arsenal. Back in the early 70's Hubbard had recommended her books and in Scientology something either had to be written by Hubbard, the usual case, or in rare instances recommended by Hubbard to be able to be used in an Org.

Since Hubbard died recommending only Adele Davis books on nutrition, I wouldn't be surprised if today's current MLO's still assigning Adele Davis's books to be read. Her stuff is 40 years old and hopelessly out of date. They were pretty good info in their time but in the field of health and nutrition, 40 year old knowledge is hopelessly outdated.

Thanks also for your last paragraph on workability. I think that is a very good explanation of what's going on when things are found to be workable.
Lakey

As I recall the issue on "pep" was written by Mary Sue - but I may be wrong. But, either way, yes, it was used as a reference. And I fully agree with THAT one. It was used in the Cadet Org at Flag as the reasoning behind why the kids should NOT have processed refined concentrated SUGAR products. Even today there are various researchers who claim that these sugary products may have something to do with ADHD and even diabetes. THAT small part of the "indoctrination" was useful to the kids - discouraged them from these non-nutritional sugar blasts, and for my kids at least, they developed a habit of not eating them (that lasted later into life).

Hubbard may have also had a policy issue on "NutraSweet" (Aspartame), which is also believed by some to be a very nasty food additive (sugar substitute). Hubbard possibly got it right sometimes, but I figure that is because he was simply grabbing the research of OTHERS who he agreed with, and he parroted them (like he did with Adelle Davis). The kids in the Cadet were drilled and heavily indoctrinated NOT to consume anything with Aspartame. Now, I will be honest, I have no idea whether it is harmful or not, though I can't for the life of me imagine how artificial man-made processed food products can not at least be minimally worse than raw unprocessed fresh food. Granted, modern science is FAR from any sort of full understanding of what the body is, how it works, and what it requires to keep it healthy. There are many opinions about it all, and some facts (that are often misinterpreted or misrepresented) by both sides of many debates.

For example, I have read all about the Fluoride debates. I have drank distilled water (made at home in my own 1 gallon distiller) and used a charcoal activated filter on my showers for almost 30 years. I do not KNOW for sure if it is bad, or as bad as they say, but to me, there is no doubt that the modern American diet, which is 1) so very high in processed foods with various man-made food additive and chemicals, and which 2) has had the "life" squeezed out of it, has more than a little to do with MANY "modern" diseases and health conditions. There is no doubt also that modern lifestyles of little exercise, poor air quality, fast foods, and chaotic mental/emotional states, add to that overall negative health influence.

Big business makes money selling all the crap to you in the first place. Then they make money selling you insurance for when you get ill. And then they make even more money from the drugs and treatments your undergo in the "health field". Is it all a big conspiracy? Probably not. Is this state of affairs totally screwed up and sad? yes.

When I lived in Clearwater one of my daughter's friends told her mom (Sea Org member) that I was on a vegetarian diet, and doing a colon cleanse to detoxify. She actually called me and YELLED at me for giving her daughter non-standard non-LRH data. She wrote a KR on me. She blasted me saying, "LRH recommends high protein diets with meat and dairy according to Adelle Davis", and "if you want to purify your body see about redoing the Purification R/D"! I tried to reason with her, telling about the theories and studies behind what I was doing, but she called me a "squirrel"!

I got off the phone and thought to myself, once again, "fuck, these people are brainwashed and entirely incapable of thinking outside of Hubbard's nutty little box of ideas".

 

[lkwdblds]

As I recall the issue on "pep" was written by Mary Sue - but I may be wrong. But, either way, yes, it was used as a reference. And I fully agree with THAT one. It was used in the Cadet Org at Flag as the reasoning behind why the kids should NOT have processed refined concentrated SUGAR products. Even today there are various researchers who claim that these sugary products may have something to do with ADHD and even diabetes. THAT small part of the "indoctrination" was useful to the kids - discouraged them from these non-nutritional sugar blasts, and for my kids at least, they developed a habit of not eating them (that lasted later into life).

Hubbard may have also had a policy issue on "NutraSweet" (Aspartame), which is also believed by some to be a very nasty food additive (sugar substitute). Hubbard possibly got it right sometimes, but I figure that is because he was simply grabbing the research of OTHERS who he agreed with, and he parroted them (like he did with Adelle Davis). The kids in the Cadet were drilled and heavily indoctrinated NOT to consume anything with Aspartame. Now, I will be honest, I have no idea whether it is harmful or not, though I can't for the life of me imagine how artificial man-made processed food products can not at least be minimally worse than raw unprocessed fresh food. Granted, modern science is FAR from any sort of full understanding of what the body is, how it works, and what it requires to keep it healthy. There are many opinions about it all, and some facts (that are often misinterpreted or misrepresented) by both sides of many debates.

For example, I have read all about the Fluoride debates. I have drank distilled water (made at home in my own 1 gallon distiller) and used a charcoal activated filter on my showers for almost 30 years. I do not KNOW for sure if it is bad, or as bad as they say, but to me, there is no doubt that the modern American diet, which is 1) so very high in processed foods with various man-made food additive and chemicals, and which 2) has had the "life" squeezed out of it, has more than a little to do with MANY "modern" diseases and health conditions. There is no doubt also that modern lifestyles of little exercise, poor air quality, fast foods, and chaotic mental/emotional states, add to that overall negative health influence.

Big business makes money selling all the crap to you in the first place. Then they make money selling you insurance for when you get ill. And then they make even more money from the drugs and treatments your undergo in the "health field". Is it all a big conspiracy? Probably not. Is this state of affairs totally screwed up and sad? yes.

When I lived in Clearwater one of my daughter's friends told her mom (Sea Org member) that I was on a vegetarian diet, and doing a colon cleanse to detoxify. She actually called me and YELLED at me for giving her daughter non-standard non-LRH data. She wrote a KR on me. She blasted me saying, "LRH recommends high protein diets with meat and dairy according to Adelle Davis", and "if you want to purify your body see about redoing the Purification R/D"! I tried to reason with her, telling about the theories and studies behind what I was doing, but she called me a "squirrel"!

I got off the phone and thought to myself, once again, "fuck, these people are brainwashed and entirely incapable of thinking outside of Hubbard's nutty little box of ideas".

I am really surprised to hear about that S.O. Mom yelling at you for eating a vegetarian diet and doing a cleanse. In the early 70's, at least in the L.A. area, those were popular ideas with many, including a lot of Scientologists. I remember that macrobiotic diets and restaurants were popular in L.A. at that time, featuring steamed brown rice topped with vegetables. You would see a lot of people from the nearby Orgs eating there.

That was before Hubbard came out with his bulletins on nutrition. Even so, the main thing his bulletins stressed was to give up sugar. Hubbard recommended meat and potatoes but if someone got their protein from vegetable sources, I believe that was acceptable to him. He just recommended protein and suggested meat but did not demand meat.

I thought that the Cal Mag formula was a good product. Time has borne that out. A Scientologist doctor is still marketing his Cal-Max formula on the airwaves for many years to the general public and it is still selling.

What's your take on vitamin E? Hubbard was one of it's earlier proponents. It was supposed to make one more mentally alert and cause the E meter to give more reads. I believed this was true for years but time has not borne this recommendation out. It's effect on me and some others was probably a placebo effect.

I liked Hubbard's Cal Mag formula. Time has borne out it's effectiveness; a Scio doctor has been selling it on radio and TV successfully for years. A sweat in the sauna is not all bad, when used in moderation, maybe 30 to 45 minutes after a workout at a gym. Sweating is a natural way to eliminate toxins and the heat relaxes one's muscles.
Lakey

 

[Auditor's Toad]

Of all the things I found to not pay any attention to was Hubturd on what to eat or not eat.

Back then I had learned to keep my mouth shut when I disagreed ( as most all us had learned ).

When I saw the old boy said his barley formula was better than mothers milk I knew he was just a blustery old fool assuming he knew the real deal when he knew not of what he spoke.

Most likely, he stole the barley formula from some mid wife.

 

[Ogsonofgroo]

Sweating is a natural way to eliminate toxins and the heat relaxes one's muscles.

Sorry to be picky but that simply isn't true, very few toxins are eliminated that way, and in very small 'trace' amounts. Our primary cleansing mechanism is through defication and pissin', sweating~not hardly at all, regardless of the hoards of junk-science affectionados (Tubs included). Tonnes of non-woo science has born this out over the last 50 years and it is an easy google.
Sweating is a natural way of cooling the body off through evaporation, for all intents thats about it 99.99% of those glands functions.

 

[Gib]

Don't know who you're addressing, but to me using the word 'research' in connection with hubbard can only be a sarcasm. To the best of my knowledge there was no research prior to the release of DMSMH. It was faked. Later there was plenty of experience with dianetic style therapy, all of which tended to show that the projected results simply weren't there.

The next great leap came with the 'discovery' of what hubbard called 'service facsimiles' in the very early 50s. This explained why dianetics couldn't make 'clears.' Preclears were actually holding onto engrams and chains of engrams because they were of 'service' to the preclear, meaning that disability was useful in getting support from others. (See Advanced Procedures and Axioms.)

As far as I know there was no research that led to this either. Or to any of the other great 'breakthroughs' that followed. They were just a succession of explanations and promised remedies for the obvious failure of what had previously been promoted and sold.

I gather from reading what some people on pilot project lines with hubbard have said that there was some sort of testing of new processes. These were, I understand always done on staff and the object was to see if the process could be taken by a skilled auditor to the usual 'f/n cog vgis. Not of course to see if the guinea pig experienced some lasting gain. According to 'Cowboy' on the thread 'trepidatious' though, people were generally afraid to bring hubbard any news that his ideas were less than brilliant in actual practice.

The early sweat program and purification rundown pilot projects were also done on staff. To me it seems obvious that the extreme things staff were required to do were reckless and dangerous. We were lab rats for a moron lost in a fantasy world of grandiose self-delusion.

I've heard of but not seen that niacin/sunburn effect. The idea of course was that niacin would 'run out' radiation, and sunburn is radiation damage to the skin. Now when I think about the 'run out' idea it seems a bit unclear. Running somethng out in the cult meant deliberately 'restimulating' something and then repeatedly having the pc go over it and recount what happened until there was no 'charge' left. This was supposed to result improvement of whatever condition was being addressed.

So if you were running out 'radiation' did that mean that you were fixing the damage caused by the radiation? Otherwise what would be the point? Repeated sun exposure can cause damage to the skin, even skin cancer. So 'running out' solar radiation should have meant that existing damage to the skin was reversed. Did that happen with you when you did the purif?

j

Hi John,

My question which you addressed was to Gadfly but I'm glad you answered it, and thanks. That helps as well. What you wrote regarding the research and testing is what I had figured as well from my readings of people's early history and piecing it together.

My coming out history is only from the beginning of this year. I know you left staff long ago and I have seen your you tubes with Tory, thanks for doing those.

To answer your question on the purif. Yes, sunburns would turn on and look like a t-shirt as I said. I haven't taken niacin recently, but I was taking it about 250mg and sunburn's would turn on. Sometimes just my head and arms turn red, sometimes my legs would turn red. But, the redness is the flush, so I think now maybe it isn't a sunburn turning on and "running out". I guess it's just a damn flush and Hub connected it to radiation as another scam. :confused2:

I'm not attempting to derail your OP here, but I ran across Alanzo's blog today, which I read some of it maybe about 3 months ago. And reading the whole section on Deconstructing scientology (what I link below), wow, things became clearer for me even more in relation to what you wrote to me. I even got to see what Caroline looks like since I listened to Jerry's Dublin talk.

http://alanzosblog.blogspot.com/search/label/How L Ron Hubbard Tricked You


I also watched this you tube vid on Mike. Unbelievable, poor kid gets sucked into the SO at 14 years old, and gets kicked out to the streets, gets disconnected from his parents, OMG, unbelievable. And people are to believe scientology can handle any case, and it's out to Clear the Planet (what a lie). I'm glad Mike is doing well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmdpAQNpdWs&feature=relmfu

 

[Johnd]

I felt somewhat "better" after it, but not that much really.

I have done quite a few fasts, toxin cleanses, and intensive deep cellular cleanses over the years (colon cleanses with lots of psyllium and bentonite, herbs, plant nutrition, with no eating of ANY solid food for 7-14 days). After doing these I feel MUCH better than anything I EVER felt from the "purif".

I recently went back to a total vegan diet with no meat, no dairy, no artificial anything (almost 2 months), stopped smoking weed (going on 6 weeks), stopped coffee, knocked off ALL processed foods of any kind, got back on a decent exercise regimen, and along with daily meditation and "extroverting activities outdoors" (I live in the mountains), I pretty much feel better than EVER in my entire life. I think Gib had it right above. Exercise will help ANYBODY. For the life of me I can't guess how some coffee-guzzling, chain-smoking, meat-eating Sea Org executive, who yells with great emotional volume as a matter of routine, can possibly imagine that he or she is on a "spiritual" path of any sort. :confused2:

These people are intensely deluled.

As a note, when I was a Flag Rep I received surveys to do from INT. The surveys were designed to find out what "buttons" and images the public had deeply and chronically associated with ideas of "cleanliness", "purity", and "health". The picture of the "bubbling brook" on Purif Promo came directly from these survey results. Scientology promo is filled with images designed to create an appropriate "reaction" or "response".

The detoxifying I have done with other programs such as the Clean Me Out Program FAR EXCEEDED anything I got from the so-called "purification rundown". I think that the Purif is just more goofiness parading as "science". Hubbard pushed Adelle Davis in some policies (she died of cancer), and Hubbard had NO IDEA of what leads to health. His simplistic statement that the "spirit heals the body", while ignoring all physical realities, is mindless (and I am someone who probably considers that to be true more than most). :confused2:

On the "feeling" and "maintaining the feeling", whether with the purif or with auditing, what most people fail to notice or recognize is that these experiences all involve a CONTEXT and are RELATIVE. They CAN'T be "constant" because they involved a comparison. The feeling of a blow-out SEEMS major, because compared to feeling "caved in" or "stuck tightly inside" before, well, the CONTRAST manifests as some "major change". But if you are feeling bright, light and sparkly all of the time, there isn't any longer any experience (or need) for "blow outs".

I have zero concern for "blowing out" or "line charging". THAT was a "phase" in my life. It was "back then" when I was somebody else. But, I went through that, and I moved on. Maybe auditing would affect me if I did some more, now, but FIRST, I would have to have the desire to CHANGE something in myself, to achieve something, to handle some problem or ruin in alignment with Hubbard's model of reality. Simply, I had NO INTEREST AT ALL. My model of reality is SO FAR different now than what it was when I was involved with Scn that I doubt anything would "bite". My needle would simply F/N . . . . . . (except on questions like "do you have any bad thoughts about Scientology, LRH or David Miscavige"?)

I haven't at all abandoned a desire to "improve", and I follow my own path these days. This path is so very far removed from almost anything within Hubbard's mindless paradigm. Sure, I would love a world without war, insanity and crime, and I often visualize such a reality in my meditations, BUT, Scientology has no workable methods to ever possibly achieve such a thing. It is a PR SLOGAN. It is BAIT. It is a pretentious ideal bandied about and used as a lure for good-hearted people.

I suspect that most people get dramatic gains, when they do, because they highly resonate with the positive PR and idealistic hype of Scientology (for awhile at least). The person's OWN decency and ideals align with Hubbard's lies and pretense for at least awhile. And, there is no doubt that auditing can and does direct a person's attention at areas that have bothered him or her (at least in this life, and metaphorically, and imaginatively, in so-called "past lives").

ANYBODY will benefit from "self-examination" at some point in his or her life. Things like ARC SW, Life Repair, the grades, and the various flows of Dianetics cause self-examination to SOME degree. A major problem though is that as one clears out some of the garbage, one concurrently absorbs a large amount of NEW GARBAGE in terms of the Scientology concepts and views about a great many things.

I actually have the view that some Scientology processes can and do "work" on some people, especially early on with the lower bridge, but the auditing results also suffer from diminishing returns over extended time. As the gains from the auditing decrease, as the big moments of blow-outs and key-outs diminish, the BELIEF SYSTEM implanted from the indoctrination MUST take over (or one will leave). Also, one can imagine almost anything into (subjective) existence. THAT is part of the reason for the "effectiveness" of Scientology auditing. It actually involves forms of visualization where one is tricked into using his or her creative imagination without knowing what is actually happening. Hubbard learned all this when he dabbled in magick and the occult. He USED this information against, and to manipulate and deceive his followers.

P.S. Yes, I also remember the elastic around the ankles and wrists on the vinyl suits. It got VERY hot inside the suits.

Thanks for all the perspective Gadfly.

I never did much in the way of detox--and I really don't consider the sweat program or the 'Purif' to have been detox programs in any reasonable sense of the word. More of a heat up the body program with light exercise and force feeding of vitamins, minerals and oil.

There may or may not be something about overheating that produces a slightly euphoric state. I don't know. If so, I see nothing wrong with it as long as it's not done too much.

My momentary feeling of 'purification' was completely imaginary--or, putting it another way, self generated. I mention it because it was sort of funny given the name of the 'rundown.' The suggestion is that after you do all this sweating, exercise and force feeding you'll achieve purification. I imagined it very briefly and for me it had little if anything to do with context and comparison and much to do with imagination and suggestion. Post scn I do TRY to control my own imagination.

I'm all for exercise and good diet, though for me it has never resulted in greater happiness long term. I'm happy WHEN exercising, but afterwards have to be doing something I see as productive or creative to feel happy. I know it works for others and that's great.

I used to do 12 to 13 mile runs some time ago, and up to before a recent illness I often did extended hikes with lots elevation gain. I would get sort of euphoric during the hikes, staring in wonder at the terrain, the trees, the weeds, the flowers, the bugs and birds. Part of it though was the fact that for my age I was doing something ridiculous and uncommon.

When I read the phrase 'blow out,' a wave of embarrassment passed through my body. As I recall, I used it only a couple of times, but heard it a lot. 'Blow out' usually meant that someone had had a great burst of euphoria. In the cult it was always attributed to the application of the tech and usually a 'certainty' that yes, it really worked and the future was brilliant if one kept at it. That was the context, the nut shell within which we thought and felt. The embarrassment is due to not wanting to admit that I was so weak in the face of cultic group influence.

I think scientology, cults generally and maybe other harmful groups are mis-attribution machines in this sense: One has a moment of real clarity or insight, or experiences some hyper euphoric state, or a happy state of idiotic certainty, or just has some real or imagined success in life. The experience is due to unburdening to a good listener, to growing up, to trying to understand something, to suggestion, to imagination, to the sudden turn on of some usually dormant emotion, to the 'placebo effect or to some unknown cause. Regardless, the experience is attributed to whatever fraudulent version of 'truth' the group pretends to posess. In scn of course it's the application of the 'tech.' Nonsense of course as people have these experiences outside of scn. I for example have many more moments of clarity and insight than I ever had in scn.

Just by thinking.

Self examination as you put it is far more possible away from controlling groups. In scientology uncontrolled self examination was considered harmful--it was 'figure figure,' self auditing or introversion. I think the early-on 'benefits' in scn are mainly due to several factors:

1. The fact that the patient is TRYING to achieve certain changes.
2. The auditor is usually a trained listener and really is there committed to the patient's betterment. Is an understanding presence.
3. It is helpful to unburden or 'discharge' past traumatic incidents as Freud pointed out. Freud also discussed the idea of 'earlier similar.'
4. Repitition (as in cches, trs 1--4, upper indoc TRs) can lead one into a pleasant light trance.
5. Extreme focus to the exclusion of things not focused on (as in TR0, auditing in general where the patient is constantly and skillfully directed to consider things not in the real world) can lead to a tuned out, serene state in which problems seem not to exist for a while.

My 1--5 is probably incomplete and maybe wrong in some ways, but it's my current understanding.

Some problems with the above: While experiencing these benefits, the person is also being habituated into a state of reflexive obedience. (You're always doing what someone says. Obedience equals reward.) You accept fundamental cult assertions and start thinking with these falsehoods. You develop an addictive (I think) dependence on auditing, training, reading and listening to hubbard and other group activities. And more I'm sure.

Later of course one gets into the increasingly narrow and wrong 'psychoanalysis' of the 'grade chart,' into forced false memory, harmful practices like 'listing and nullling,' and eventually into endless and insane exorcism. So one goes deeper and deeper into a barren and dangerous mine shaft after collecting a few nuggets near the entrance.

The thing that now interests me most is the group psychology of the whole experience--the strange and evil cohesion of the social organism and its ability to override individual will, reason and positive emotion. To me it is very powerful and still somewhat scary. I would like to be able to completely understand it and offer a remedy but at this point can't. I'll try to at least explore this in the rest of my story.

john

 

[lkwdblds]

Thanks for all the perspective Gadfly.

I never did much in the way of detox--and I really don't consider the sweat program or the 'Purif' to have been detox programs in any reasonable sense of the word. More of a heat up the body program with light exercise and force feeding of vitamins, minerals and oil.

There may or may not be something about overheating that produces a slightly euphoric state. I don't know. If so, I see nothing wrong with it as long as it's not done too much.

My momentary feeling of 'purification' was completely imaginary--or, putting it another way, self generated. I mention it because it was sort of funny given the name of the 'rundown.' The suggestion is that after you do all this sweating, exercise and force feeding you'll achieve purification. I imagined it very briefly and for me it had little if anything to do with context and comparison and much to do with imagination and suggestion. Post scn I do TRY to control my own imagination.

I'm all for exercise and good diet, though for me it has never resulted in greater happiness long term. I'm happy WHEN exercising, but afterwards have to be doing something I see as productive or creative to feel happy. I know it works for others and that's great.

I used to do 12 to 13 mile runs some time ago, and up to before a recent illness I often did extended hikes with lots elevation gain. I would get sort of euphoric during the hikes, staring in wonder at the terrain, the trees, the weeds, the flowers, the bugs and birds. Part of it though was the fact that for my age I was doing something ridiculous and uncommon.

When I read the phrase 'blow out,' a wave of embarrassment passed through my body. As I recall, I used it only a couple of times, but heard it a lot. 'Blow out' usually meant that someone had had a great burst of euphoria. In the cult it was always attributed to the application of the tech and usually a 'certainty' that yes, it really worked and the future was brilliant if one kept at it. That was the context, the nut shell within which we thought and felt. The embarrassment is due to not wanting to admit that I was so weak in the face of cultic group influence.

I think scientology, cults generally and maybe other harmful groups are mis-attribution machines in this sense: One has a moment of real clarity or insight, or experiences some hyper euphoric state, or a happy state of idiotic certainty, or just has some real or imagined success in life. The experience is due to unburdening to a good listener, to growing up, to trying to understand something, to suggestion, to imagination, to the sudden turn on of some usually dormant emotion, to the 'placebo effect or to some unknown cause. Regardless, the experience is attributed to whatever fraudulent version of 'truth' the group pretends to posess. In scn of course it's the application of the 'tech.' Nonsense of course as people have these experiences outside of scn. I for example have many more moments of clarity and insight than I ever had in scn.

Just by thinking.

Self examination as you put it is far more possible away from controlling groups. In scientology uncontrolled self examination was considered harmful--it was 'figure figure,' self auditing or introversion. I think the early-on 'benefits' in scn are mainly due to several factors:

1. The fact that the patient is TRYING to achieve certain changes.
2. The auditor is usually a trained listener and really is there committed to the patient's betterment. Is an understanding presence.
3. It is helpful to unburden or 'discharge' past traumatic incidents as Freud pointed out. Freud also discussed the idea of 'earlier similar.'
4. Repitition (as in cches, trs 1--4, upper indoc TRs) can lead one into a pleasant light trance.
5. Extreme focus to the exclusion of things not focused on (as in TR0, auditing in general where the patient is constantly and skillfully directed to consider things not in the real world) can lead to a tuned out, serene state in which problems seem not to exist for a while.

My 1--5 is probably incomplete and maybe wrong in some ways, but it's my current understanding.

Some problems with the above: While experiencing these benefits, the person is also being habituated into a state of reflexive obedience. (You're always doing what someone says. Obedience equals reward.) You accept fundamental cult assertions and start thinking with these falsehoods. You develop an addictive (I think) dependence on auditing, training, reading and listening to hubbard and other group activities. And more I'm sure.

Later of course one gets into the increasingly narrow and wrong 'psychoanalysis' of the 'grade chart,' into forced false memory, harmful practices like 'listing and nullling,' and eventually into endless and insane exorcism. So one goes deeper and deeper into a barren and dangerous mine shaft after collecting a few nuggets near the entrance.

The thing that now interests me most is the group psychology of the whole experience--the strange and evil cohesion of the social organism and its ability to override individual will, reason and positive emotion. To me it is very powerful and still somewhat scary. I would like to be able to completely understand it and offer a remedy but at this point can't. I'll try to at least explore this in the rest of my story.

john

Very fine post John! I really enjoyed points 1 to 5:

On Point #1, "the patient is really trying". This seems simple but it is key. Without a patient's desire to improve, probably no therapy will accomplish much of anything.

Hubbard's drill of finding a person's ruin was a means of getting a person focused on an area of life which needed improving. Ditto for the OCA personality test. IMO, the OCA does have value if done objectively but C of S altered it to make it exclusively a sales tool for use by a registrar. Last but not least was the Grade Chart; If a person did not have a good concept of what his ruin was, the Grade Chart would focus his attention on something that needed improvement.

Points #2 & #3 - "An auditor who is committed and is a good listener" - Whatever wins were achieved in Scientology, this was responsible for the "lion's share" of them. A lot of well intended people who really desired to help others were drawn into C of S and there was enough workability in the beginning courses to aid them in being good listeners.

Also, some people have a natural talent for being a good listener. If a person cares about others and listens to them earnestly and let's them know that they are heard, the person being helped will experience relief through unburdening.

Point #4 - "Repitition" as a light trance. That is a good observation. This effect occurred also in group processing and you see it as well in other fields such as politics and even sports. Crowds chanting, "Yes we Can!, Yes we Can!...." or "4 more Years"... or just repeating a candidate's name, "Mitt, Mitt,..." The Nazi's were masters of this with huge crowds being placed in a trance by repeating slogans such as "Sieg Heil!, Sieg Heil...!"

Point #5 - "Extreme focus". This point, along with Point #1 may have some actual value in being workable technology. Meditation requires this as do things such as playing the piano well, excelling in a sport, etc.

John, you say the list may be incomplete. Three more points just popped into my mind. What do you think of these?

A potential Point#6 - "Providing someone a Purpose". A lot of people who entered C of S and other fanatical groups were adrift in the world, not fitting in, not relating to society, etc. Hubbard provided them with a purpose.

A potential Point #7 - "Believing that you possess superior knowledge". This is key in building a fanatical group. The members have to believe that their leader and their knowledge is superior to any other belief system out there. Hubbard provided the belief of superiority as well as or better than any other leader!

A potential Point #8 - "Having a common enemy to fight". Christianity has the devil, Hitler had the Jews, etc. Hubbard chose Psychiatry to blame for all the ills of the world. This gave Hubbard's followers a common entity to blame their failures on. A fanatical movement absolutely needs this in order to grow.
Lakey

 

[Gadfly]

A potential Point#6 - "Providing someone a Purpose". A lot of people who entered C of S and other fanatical groups were adrift in the world, not fitting in, not relating to society, etc. Hubbard provided them with a purpose.

Lakey

That was true for me at the time. Also,

If you don't have a purpose you become someone else's purpose.

Hubbard figured out how to get a great many people to work for HIS purposes and goals (which weren't the purposes and goals that you were told and PRed with).

 

[Johnd]

John, you say the list may be incomplete. Three more points just popped into my mind. What do you think of these?

A potential Point#6 - "Providing someone a Purpose". A lot of people who entered C of S and other fanatical groups were adrift in the world, not fitting in, not relating to society, etc. Hubbard provided them with a purpose.

A potential Point #7 - "Believing that you possess superior knowledge". This is key in building a fanatical group. The members have to believe that their leader and their knowledge is superior to any other belief system out there. Hubbard provided the belief of superiority as well as or better than any other leader!

A potential Point #8 - "Having a common enemy to fight". Christianity has the devil, Hitler had the Jews, etc. Hubbard chose Psychiatry to blame for all the ills of the world. This gave Hubbard's followers a common entity to blame their failures on. A fanatical movement absolutely needs this in order to grow.
Lakey

On #6, we were definitely given purpose. This I think is a powerful factor for individuals and for groups. Trouble is we were given a false or wrong purpose: clearing the planet was a fictional purpose because the 'erasable reactive mind' hypothesis was wrong. Becoming a demi-god I'm guessing is another fantasy purpose and I'll wager that even if it is possible one wouldn't do it with exorcism.

But thinking I had a good purpose and pursuing it did make me feel better (I think). This didn't last that long as doubt kept showing up about the workability and after a while I just didn't really think we were achieving much. Then the group and all the rah rah took over and it became empty of real enthusiasm and I became more motivated by fear of ostracism, guilt, group approval, blind loyalty, desperation, etc.

On your #7, this was a source of morale early on, but faded just as my sense of purpose faded. It is I think an evil thing if by thinking one has superior knowledge means being 'better' than the non-enlightened. I never felt 'better' than the 'wogs' by the way. Maybe something was wrong with me. To me now superior knowlege just means that I can teach somebody something or do something for someone (like fixing a plumbing leak). That's a source of morale. But to me the sense of ideological 'superiority' was a source of constant stress as I had to maintain a very heavy pretense in the face of contradictory reality.


On your #8 I can only speak for myself. I always found the anti-sp, anti-psych stuff uninspiring. Again, maybe I just wasn't with it. Other people no doubt had other experiences. It's a powerful thing though if you consider history. In a couple of ways: You could really be under attack by a tyrannical power as was say china in Ww2. Propaganda can also create and sell enemies, like, the Jews, the terrorists, the witches, the infidels, the sps, the psychs, the secular humanists, the godless, etc. This is frighteningly powerful and I think deeply evil.

I'm thankful that scientology doesn't have state power. Under a 'scientolocracy' we'd all be in concentration camps or dead.

There is another thing that scientology provided for me that wasn't necessarily good or bad per se: Team spirit, comeraderie. Not good if you're doing something evil, but otherwise a positive thing I guess. I definitely needed and got this initially from scn. It was a huge part of my morale at first.

john

 

[lkwdblds]

On #6, we were definitely given purpose. This I think is a powerful factor for individuals and for groups. Trouble is we were given a false or wrong purpose: clearing the planet was a fictional purpose because the 'erasable reactive mind' hypothesis was wrong. Becoming a demi-god I'm guessing is another fantasy purpose and I'll wager that even if it is possible one wouldn't do it with exorcism.

But thinking I had a good purpose and pursuing it did make me feel better (I think). This didn't last that long as doubt kept showing up about the workability and after a while I just didn't really think we were achieving much. Then the group and all the rah rah took over and it became empty of real enthusiasm and I became more motivated by fear of ostracism, guilt, group approval, blind loyalty, desperation, etc.

On your #7, this was a source of morale early on, but faded just as my sense of purpose faded. It is I think an evil thing if by thinking one has superior knowledge means being 'better' than the non-enlightened. I never felt 'better' than the 'wogs' by the way. Maybe something was wrong with me. To me now superior knowlege just means that I can teach somebody something or do something for someone (like fixing a plumbing leak). That's a source of morale. But to me the sense of ideological 'superiority' was a source of constant stress as I had to maintain a very heavy pretense in the face of contradictory reality.


On your #8 I can only speak for myself. I always found the anti-sp, anti-psych stuff uninspiring. Again, maybe I just wasn't with it. Other people no doubt had other experiences. It's a powerful thing though if you consider history. In a couple of ways: You could really be under attack by a tyrannical power as was say china in Ww2. Propaganda can also create and sell enemies, like, the Jews, the terrorists, the witches, the infidels, the sps, the psychs, the secular humanists, the godless, etc. This is frighteningly powerful and I think deeply evil.

I'm thankful that scientology doesn't have state power. Under a 'scientolocracy' we'd all be in concentration camps or dead.

There is another thing that scientology provided for me that wasn't necessarily good or bad per se: Team spirit, comeraderie. Not good if you're doing something evil, but otherwise a positive thing I guess. I definitely needed and got this initially from scn. It was a huge part of my morale at first.

john

Interesting comments!
On having a purpose, after the first three years, I never believed that it would be possible to "clear the planet". The press on Scientology was very negative and most people I knew, friends and family, were suspicious of it. I got about 10 people to attend intro lectures and none of them signed up.

When the prices started going up 5% a month, I thought that was insane! The prices were already too high for most middle class working people with families to be able to afford.

I was still gung-ho at the time but I remember thinking that this 5% a month thing showed that management has given up on clearing the planet and was hurting for money and just decided to put the squeeze on the existing Scio public.

The comaraderie that you mentioned above was perhaps the most enticing element of anything C of S offered. There were some really fine people who joined up and really wanted to help other people. It was easy to make what seemed like very high quality friends and work with them with a lot of team spirit.

The disconnection policies turned me off to that. People who you knew were decent, well meaning people left C of S and then you were ordered to shun them. Sooner or later, you realize that people who would shun their friends are not really their friends. Real friends stay loyal to their friends in times of difficulty. If your friends would shun you on someone else's orders, they were never really your friends. Realizing that made it easier to walk away from the Orgs.
Lakey

 

[Auditor's Toad]

John I certainly hope to see your collected writings in a book soon.

Your writing style makes for a page turner !