Neuro-Linguistic Programming

[VaD]

NLP is based on Modeling. Which is basically, "do as people who are doing good do"

The creators started following the best Psychologist and people who were having results in every area, from Sales to Magick, And asking them question of how they do that?, being aware of patterns and reasons for the person being that good.

Thats why everything someone does good, others can say is NLP, but in reality is just having some skills. Like the old "obama is using NLP" Well he is, or maybe he is just good at talking, If you watch a Hitler speech you can find NLP all over it.

NLP is heavy influenced by hypnosis, Basically all there is to know about NLP you can find it in hypnosis, the NLP models are more flexible, but still are just Hypnosis. The creators modeled Milton Erickson well enough to reproduce his success.

And most NLP Is just a Model that works, but not necessary truth. Is just good assumptions.

As an example of just things that works read this

http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/nlpfax04.htm

I'd like to thank the OP and everyone who contributed to this thread, with opinions, links etc.
My special thanks to at3ist with his post and link above.

I ran into NLP back in 1995, and found some interesting things to learn. But I got (from someone in Scn) that it was "from Psychs", and thus I forbade myself to look into it or learn anything about it.
In fact, my self-created prohibition to learn anything about it was valid up until today.
I mean now! AFTER I've learned about OT3, Xenu and the fact that Scn tech with its theory are nothing but scam.

Today my curiousity (AGAIN!) overcame my fears of reading and hearing something that would make me insane... (I guess here I agreed being insane after learning what I wanted to learn).
Yet, this gave me another great perspective. Not that I'm all over NLP now but my vision has certainly expanded.
Maybe because I removed another barrier from learning about things and humans.

I guess that Scientologist's mindset makes one still. I mean still about going forward in his learning. It keeps one shut off from fruits of observations that are not per LRH. It keeps one sticking to a certain paradigm.. to a certain principles... One of which is "do not get subverted into something else! Or - you'll die in agony!"

Do I make sense?

 

[VaD]

http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/nlpfax04.htm

Interesting also that I used some NLP principles without knowing anything about NLP... just naturally and without any "second thoughts".

NLP, which had been my Enemy, just like any Psychs were, turns out to be my good friend which can explain to me some phenomena I have experienced and reinforce and help to handle some phenomena that I had trouble with.

I used to think that NLP was ONLY to manipulate people. Now I see that NLP as another way of seeing a man in his relationship with environment.

Any good knowledge can be used for the good or for the bad.. It depends on who owns the knowledge. (Atomic bomb was not created for killing people. Those who made it didn't mean it being used for warfare)

NLP is a good knowledge. And those who put this knowledge together are NOT responsible for the followeres who did, have done and have been doing something ugly with/out of it.

 

[VaD]

Just a thought.
Let's say that basically a person what s/he is. No image, no special scent, no flavor, no nothing special about him.
He wants a successful model for his image, scent, flavor, abilities...
He thinks that by himself he is nothing.

He chooses a state of Clear as a successfull model. He goes for it.
Now, everything else is "for birds".
The ONLY right thing becomes is to follow Hubbard's path (which WILL make him into someone with image, flavor, scent...).

Well, that's modeling. It's not done to one externally. It's done by a being itself. He just chose the path - the path AWAY from being himself, towards "better self" (which, in itself, is an illusion. The Self-illusion).

P.S. Sorry, the connection of above post with NLP is that a person tends to be *somebody* with others. To be oneself (among others) is often unacceptable, unpleasant, stupid, unintelligent, unethical, and generally - not good. Thus, it's better for a person to BE SOMEBODY (who is acceptable, pleasant, smart, intelligent, ethical, nice, sweet...). So, a person models his presense in the community how he wants to be seen, felt as good, pleasant, acceptable....
NLP to me uncovered the essense of necessity of such modeling pretenses.

 

[secretiveoldfag]

So did LRH inhibit contact with psychs (=Evil etc etc) to stop his followers finding out what the tech was doing to them? Considering the tech is based on forms of hyphnosis, NLP, visual stuff, etc etc this was not stupid.

In 1945 he had no objection to psychiatry, was pleading for treatment so a lot changed in the next five years.

 

[at3ist]

NLP is a good tool to learn, read books about it, at the worst you will learn about yourself and others.

Most of this things are about creating models for others and yourself, what I mean by that is that you make someone believe something, then the person follow it, then it does what you tell the person, it will do. (read placebo (read hypnosis), and also know that placebo is not a bad thing, If channeled with good intentions and if the thing you're supposed to do, don't prolong itself for a lifetime).

Also Analyze your life based on what I just wrote, what models are you living on?, what do you think those models will get you?.

Somebody once toll you, it will be good to read, and you're reading right now.

What about the language you speak, How does it make you view of the world?.

So in other words we live in models you like it or not, some of them copied, some of them you make.

 

[RolandRB]

Touch that wall......Thank you. , This TR in particular aims at rewiring the brain so it follows commands more easily with less resistance.

But more so is the "keep it from going away". If you obey that command and think you are keeping a wall from going away then you are a small step away from signing a big value check over to the cult.

 

[programmer_guy]

But more so is the "keep it from going away". If you obey that command and think you are keeping a wall from going away then you are a small step away from signing a big value check over to the cult.

Roland, IMO you should change your avatar.

I know very well what you mean by it BUT 'net surfing passers-by might not understand.

 

[at3ist]

And is probably the other way around, he is the one fucking with people.

 

[VaD]

I'd like to post some excerpts from the following link:
http://www.bradburyac.mistral.co.uk/nlpfax04.htm

3. You cannot not communicate
Commentary: People often imagine that they can avoid personal responsibility by simply saying nothing. This pre-supposition points out that we are constantly communicating, by what we do say, by what we don't say, and by a host of non-verbal signals.
On this basis it may be obvious that there is more to be gained by accepting responsibility for one's actions, than by trying to stay aloof.

4. The meaning of your communication is the response that you get
Commentary: The pre-supposition here is that people will respond to what they think you mean, which may be an accurate or inaccurate interpretation of your intended meaning.
(Please note, a "communication" is the 'whole' message - not only what you said but also all of the accompanying non-verbal signals.).
The value of this pre-supposition is that it points out that if we want people to respond appropriately to what we say then we need to talk to them rather than at them. That is, we need to be constantly aware of other peoples' responses to what we're saying, and adjust our communication accordingly, rather than just assuming that they will have understood what we meant them to understand.

6. Every behaviour has a positive intention
Commentary: This is possibly the most controversial of the NLP presuppositions, since it is so open to misinterpretation.

What we actually mean is that every behaviour has a positive intention, as far as the person exhibiting the behaviour is concerned.
This does not mean that the behaviour is the best possible choice (from an objective point of view). Nor does it mean that the behaviour will have positive benefits for anyone else.
A classic example of what we might call the inverted positive intention is the behaviour of the bullying manager who gains re-assurance from hitting on the people under him/her.

The solution to this kind of inappropriate behaviour is to find a way of satisfying the intention by more acceptable means. A way, for example, of giving the manager re-assurance in such a way that he no longer needs to bully his employees to get it.

7. Every behaviour is appropriate in some context
Commentary: Another way of putting this is: if we adopt a certain behaviour it's because once upon a time it worked. The trouble is that we often go on sing a certain behaviour even though it is manifestly no longer appropriate.
Having said that, if we accept this presupposition then we also realise that the most effective solution is to find a new, more appropriate behaviour rather than holding a lengthy, pointless post mortem over the old behaviour (which is more likely to re-enforce that old behaviour rather than driving it out).

8. A map is not the territory it depicts; words are not the things they describe; symbols are not the things they represent
Commentary: This may well be the single most important pre-supposition in the whole of NLP (originally developed by Alfred Korzybski, the founder of General Semantics).
In very simple terms it means that we are always slightly separated from 'reality'. We draw maps, but the map is not actually the place it depicts and we need to be responsive to what is actually happening around us rather than complaining that things aren't as they "ought to be".
Similarly, we need to understand that words are only a kind of shorthand for the things they describe. To get an inkling of what this means in practice, just look at the words on a banknote. What exactly does "promise to pay the bearer" really mean?
What would an actual pound or dollar look like, as distinct from a coin or bank note which represents or symbolises some financial value?

10. There is no such thing as failure, only feedback
Commentary: When something doesn't go as we planned we tend to see that as failure. Depending on the seriousness of the situation we might then get angry, irritated, sad, depressed, worried, guilty or whatever.
None of which serves any useful purpose.

But what happens if we see the situation as feedback rather than failure. A real life demonstration of how not to do something?
Instead of being wrong we've learned something. Instead of feeling bad we are free to form a new plan of action and try again.

Cosy, rosy-tinted 'positive thinking'? Not exactly.
Edison identified about a 1,000 materials which are not suitable as filaments for a light bulb before he found one which worked and worked well.
A number of best-selling books (i.e. million sellers plus film) were turned down by more than two dozen publishers before they were accepted for publication.
And always remember the poor talent scout at Decca records who rejected the Beatles as having no future in music!

I like those statements. There are more there.
I'll comment from my linguistic point of view how NLP dovetails with my daily life of a teacher later.

 

[VaD]

My comment:

People deal with each other thru words and non-verbal messages.
If one wants to get his idea across, he does it with 1) words, 2) gestures 3) feelngs.
Generally, it's neuro-linguistics. People use it all the time.

"Programming" word is quite unpleasant for many... but don't parents "program" their own children to behave the way they want them to behave?
Programming is not something extraneous to us, humans. We do it (by the powers we possess). - Senior to junior, wife to husband, mother to child, robber to a victim, scientology (authorities) to scientologists...

 

[at3ist]

Internalizing the presuppositions is one of the greatest things you can do in your life. It will serve you in your carer, your relationships and any endeavor you do, I see them as a good attitude toward things.

 

[oneonewasaracecar]

Many NLP processes are very similar to Scn ones, though, especially the earlier creative processes from the 50s, and many of them work quite well.

Neither Scientology nor NLP has subjected themself to peer review. Both NLP and Scientology have trademark protection and secrecy.

Derren Brown (and other skeptics) criticize it for this reason. I have heard Derren Brown say (of NLP) their MIGHT be something there, but nobody knows because it is a closed system.

My guess is that NLP is a money making cult which has just borrowed off of Milton Erikkson (like every most others with 'new' ideas in hypnosis). Hubbard pilfered from Erikkson, including the confusion technique. His lectures are riddled with it.

 

[at3ist]

Theres no secrecy in NLP, just advanced courses, But everybody knows what subjects are covered in them.

Theres a lot of hype, thats the thing. in NLP there are people claiming a lot of stuff that can not be proved, and the NLP system in itself is based on metaphors (aka lies) so go figure.

So you might hear people selling "The LAST technique developed in the field that is so covert and so GOOD, it will double your income in a week" and you go to the seminar and you realize it was just hype. NLP to sell NLP.

NLP is well known and there nothing secret in it (that I know of lol), that you can learn it by books, and theres nothing like in scientology where the books are just adds to the real secret thing. No, in NLP books you find the drills and the exercises to become good at it, If you want mastery you can go to the courses of people who are already mastering it.

 

[VaD]

Models = How to's

Hats, Policies, KRs, Word Clearing methods, Auditing Methods and Styles... they are all models. They are all "How to..."

If a person (even an Ex Scientologist) keeps "strengthening his "postulates" and uses "old hats", he keeps getting nowhere where he wanted to arrive.
Yet, if one concentrates on methods/how to's models, and keeps griddling out those that don't fit him, then finally he gets somewhere... having found those that do get him where he wants.

(good to remember: "People would get way more out of their life if they weren't troubled with great ambitions")

$cn postulates are fixed by Hubbard. Postulates of what you can reach thru Scn are fixed and they are not yours. They are Hubbard's fantasy in action.

$cn tech's (read: methods, models...) are fixed.

Successfull models are the ones each person works out for himself - according to *HIS OWN* goals (dreams, postulates...).

Thus, Scn tech (how to's) is only valid for those who found Hubbard's models successful for themselves.

I didn't.
I have other models that work way better for me.

Ever wondered why there are so many "How to..." books?

 

[VaD]

A ----> B​

That's what person wants.
Let's say that he's a *shy* person.
So he postulated to be *courageous*person. - It's his postulate.

How does he go about it? What are the methods?

Scn says: "The Bridge is THE answer. Just do your steps and you'll get to *B* (BTW, no matter what a person had at his *A*, the *only* answer is "the Bridge!")

Now, NLP says that methods/models are numerous and to your own flavors. It's not a single party line thing. You can take it or leave it. You can choose your objective, postulate with reality, and go for it. You are the one responsible.

Value of postulate

In Scn you get those ideas of being Clear and OT. You get descriptions (definitions) of them that are beyond your dreams.
You transform into a being whose *postulates* now are *no less than being a God-like*.
(Remember point *A*? - A person just wanted to be courageous)

Postulates are OVERestimated, and people believing in things think too much of themselves and their abilities to reach *B*.
They just have no methods and models to reach any *B* they want (especially, with LRH's implanted *B*s).

Otherwise, better abilities can be reached.

 

[VaD]

Postulates/Goals/Dreams vs. Methods/Models/Approaches

We value our dreams and our postulates and our goals very much.
We cherish them.
In fact, we are willing to give everything for them (like Scientologists do).

Something unpleasant to say: we cherish them Too Much!
Seems, we'd rather sit back and postulate than go and do something about achieving something that gets us closer to it.

Worse than that is that the more we sit back the more our dreams grow...

****

Guess what.

Our simple Postulates/Goals/Dreams (those that haven't become infected by others Postulates/Goals/Dreams) are achievable.

And the point is not in thinking of oneself less or cutting down your "initial dreams", but about finding and applying better Methods/Models/Approaches to getting to *B*

***

There is something I discovered about dealing with life further.

It's not our "postulates" we have to be concerned about (especially, when those "postulates" are nothing but indoctrinated idea of "better state").
We have to find our own methods and models that we want to realize and feel ourselves acomplished *B*.

 

[programmer_guy]

Is this used in advertising?

Sex and Death Among the Ice Cubes:
Subliminal Messages in Advertising
http://www.classroomtools.com/sublimad.htm

Like most people, advertisers sometimes like to discuss their work. Reading the descriptions some have given of how particular ads and campaigns were created (caveat: before using this article with your students, review it for age-appropriate language and ideas - a good idea in general, but especially for links in this section of the site), we see that every component of an ad is carefully constructed and placed, sometimes deceptively so. So before automatically rejecting a subliminal explanation for the presence of something, try to find a better one to explain its appearance.

I've titled this section Sex and Death Among the Ice Cubes because it is based in large part on my reading of the work of Wilson Bryan Key. While I do not believe that attempts at subliminal manipulation are as common as Key asserts, I find the contents of a small number of ads impossible to explain reasonably in any other way.

 

[at3ist]

@ Vadim Dolgov

Are you talking about Thelema?

 

[VaD]

@ Vadim Dolgov

Are you talking about Thelema?

I'm not anymore into mystical solutions. Never read Crowley's stuff (except links from ESMB).

I'm more into "positive psychology".

There is an interesting comment from Jeff's blog that falls in line with what I'm for and after. I believe it was written by someone familiar with NLP:

http://leavingscientology.wordpress.com/2010/09/25/the-boogeymen/#comment-5433

Let me quote it here:

Scientology starts with fear. It starts on the boogeyman that you are not as good as other people (ie you are held back by your ruin) and keeps a hold of you with the boogeyman of psychs and media.
It starts with the hook – “We will find your RUIN!
Then we will fix it. Then you will be better than anyone else, Superman!
Fame, fortune, love will all be yours if you can just fix what is wrong with you.”
Then it hooks with a promise of turning average Joe into Super Joe.
Ever noticed how arrogant Scientologists in general are?
They have been fed with the promise, no, the absolute certainty that they are right, they are better, they KNOW. But arrogance is merely the external manifestation of internal fear, fear of failure, fear of not being the best, fear of being found out that they are not indeed superman.
What if the hook was: lets find your GIFT.
Lets not worry about your stutter, or unhappy marriage or dead end job.
Hell 80% of the population probably have similar issues, its pretty much part of the life experience.
Lets find out what truly makes you shine instead, what makes you not just “the stutterer with the lousy marriage and crappy job”, but the man who can make the most amazing ships in bottles; or sings beautifully; or calms abused children with gentle stories told off the cuff.
Some people’s gifts that are less tangible but no less wonderful, the woman who just makes you feel calm and happy, simply by being with her.
So here you are, wondering what makes you unique and special among the billions of us. What makes you superman.
Is it really by finding and fixing or trying to fix a ruin. What actually is a ruin anyway? Its a comparison between you and other people.
But we are not all alike.
We do not all interact with the world in the same way. So who determines the standard of the ideal human? And why would we want to be that standard?
Who sold that standard to us?
Perhaps even on a deeper spiritual level, we chose to experience life through the lenses of the so-called ruin in order to learn and grow. Perhaps its not what we can’t do that makes us; but rather what we can inherently do and be.
Once we understand the fact that we can’t be prima ballerinas when we grew to 5’8 at 12 years of age and blessed with a build like a shotputter, then its time to understand that our gifts will take us onto a different path. Its what gives us those shiny, sparkly moments of joy that helps us cope with the humdrum job or marriage. It may even give shine enough light on areas of our lives that aren’t happy, to allow us to move away from it; but then again, it might not.
No one was promised a perfect life or an easy journey.
We can certainly not pay anyone else for it to happen either.
Its life lottery. Some of us win the jackpot, some of us just get a fleeting thrill when it seems our numbers are going to come up.
Being unhappy, disgruntled, broke, heart broken, depressed is part of the journey of life, just as is joy and peace and contentment. But its all ephemeral, always changing as we interact with the world.
To Scientologists still enthralled with the tech, I ask, would you be reading this if Scientology honestly wanted you to “find your gift” and worked with you to bring it to the fore.
Would you find more joy in life, or maybe just come to an acceptance of your life, if you focussed more on your strengths rather than putting full focus on and try to hammer out your perceived weaknesses?
Bearing in mind some “weaknesses”can never be rectified, so are you on a one way ticket to nowhere, forever focussing on what you aren’t; and rarely focussing one what you are?
If it is giving you great personal pleasure and joy to spend hours of your life auditing out body thetans, then that is wonderful.
I mean that sincerely. Take joy wherever you can.
But if its preventing you from exploring your joy, or finding your gift that brings you joy, then try to remember an earlier time when your life wasn’t limited by manufactured fear, the Boogeyman.

 

[at3ist]

Positive psychology, thats great, tal ben-shahar is a great resource for that subject, check him.

In my bad understanding of Crowley,That "finding your gift" sounds like "Do What Thou Wilt". lol

Like, find what your true *B* is, and get it. Crowley, being a motherfucker aggregates "and fuck anything that gets in your way" and he also had a "bridge" but aimed at finding that "Gift" (again I don't know much about it) apparently that gift is love.

But yes, I agree with you, theres no mystical solution. and there is also no problems (but this one is kind of mystical in a way).