OT Abilities

[Royal Prince Xenu]

I would like to ask people who are in a position to know (and there are many on this board) if you could please give feedback on the following:

I'm wanting to know if any of the processes in Scientology as it is delivered produces any measurable "OT Abilities".

Now by "OT Abilities" I actually mean all of the cool stuff that you would expect from a Jedi knight .
- Knocking hats off from 30 feet away.
-Parking your body in the corner and wandering around with FULL perception and in full control
- Reading others thoughts (once again knowingly and purposefully)
- Etc, Etc

I'm not really interested in the fuzzy feelings and vague knowingnesses or things "going right".

I want to know if there were any consistent, duplicatable and measurable results achieved with any processes as developed and used by the CoS.

It would be appreciated if you could put your experience / knowledge in this matter in the reply. (ie "OTVIII Completion", "NOTS C/S", "L's Completion", "Guy who knew a guy who's cousins best friend did it and told him")

This incdent could be classed as "OT" but it came along time after I had left and I attribute the skill to other studies. In Scn terms it was real 8C.

I was doing security in a 24hour fast food outlet (things that make you go MMMM) that was reputedly rough (I had encountered this before), so I was there with another trainee.

A DB (degraded being, dunk bastard, whatever) came in an made a purchase and then sat down. He was taking really too long with his "meal" and discarding bits all over the floor.

My trainee was about to approach him to lead him out of the premises and I stopped him. "First rule. Do NOT engage in conversation with a drunk. You will be stuck there all night. Now watch and learn."

I looked straight at the guy and said in a voice that only my trainee could hear "You were just leaving, weren't you?" I then said to the other guy, "Now watch."

Within two minutes, the drunk tidied up his mess, walked soberly and purposefully out the door and looked around him as the drunkenness desceneded on him again, and he had no idea how he ended up back outside. Then all we had to do was pick a few things up off the floor and get staff to wipe down the table.

Do this count? I'm often invisible to the sensors on automatic doors, or maybe they just don't like me?

 

[Knox Harrington]

Sure. I remember them saying stuff like that. But I've also heard people say they did accomplish some feats after doing some of or all of the OT levels. Advance Mag, too, is full of them.

So for some- and I DON'T mean you, I mean some critics- it's a problem if they slough it off and don't say they can do anything then, if they DO, then that gets laughed at. Stuff from Advance Mag OT phenomena is routinely posted in critical forums and laughed at.

That's b/c alot of the stories in the Advanced mags are preposterous. I'm not saying no one ever had any seemingly supernatural things happen to them. I wrote a couple of my own in a post on here. What I AM saying is that if you are going to CLAIM that you are an OT, please put up or stfu and dispense with the lame excuses. B/c I've had quite enough of sky-high rhetoric and big talk. I would think we all have.

 

[gomorrhan]

I left alt.clearing.technology because the owner was deeply insulting to anyone who thought it was absurd for him to hold the view that you shouldn't have to demonstrate "OT Abilities". He insisted it would be an integrity break and an overt of magnitude to demonstrate such abilities, and that it could, in fact, get the demonstrator targeted for destruction or abuse or whatever by governments or evil spiritual agencies.

I consider that nothing more than a cop-out. I said so, and he assigned me treason. Apparently, he doesn't understand ethics, and doesn't like having his bluff called.

Eternally.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Yes, Homer can be quite insulting. I've experienced that, too.

Sometimes he writes some great posts and there sometimes are others on the forum who are pretty interesting, but in general, a.c.t. has really stagnated. Almost no one posts there nowadays.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

That's b/c alot of the stories in the Advanced mags are preposterous. I'm not saying no one ever had any seemingly supernatural things happen to them. I wrote a couple of my own in a post on here. What I AM saying is that if you are going to CLAIM that you are an OT, please put up or stfu and dispense with the lame excuses. B/c I've had quite enough of sky-high rhetoric and big talk. I would think we all have.

Well, wait a minute. First I see people saying that OTs won't talk about their wins, that much. Then I see that it's sky high rhetoric and big talk. I'd say which one is it, but I know what it is.

They don't really brag, but occasionally someone tries to get them to discuss it. Meaning, the "OT" in the situation isn't initiating the discourse, most of the time. Then, their answers are generally deemed unsatisfactory.

Sorry, but on this one my sympathy's with the OTs bieg examined under the spotlight.

 

[Andrew]

This incdent could be classed as "OT" but it came along time after I had left and I attribute the skill to other studies. In Scn terms it was real 8C.

I was doing security in a 24hour fast food outlet (things that make you go MMMM) that was reputedly rough (I had encountered this before), so I was there with another trainee.

A DB (degraded being, dunk bastard, whatever) came in an made a purchase and then sat down. He was taking really too long with his "meal" and discarding bits all over the floor.

My trainee was about to approach him to lead him out of the premises and I stopped him. "First rule. Do NOT engage in conversation with a drunk. You will be stuck there all night. Now watch and learn."

I looked straight at the guy and said in a voice that only my trainee could hear "You were just leaving, weren't you?" I then said to the other guy, "Now watch."

Within two minutes, the drunk tidied up his mess, walked soberly and purposefully out the door and looked around him as the drunkenness desceneded on him again, and he had no idea how he ended up back outside. Then all we had to do was pick a few things up off the floor and get staff to wipe down the table.

Do this count? I'm often invisible to the sensors on automatic doors, or maybe they just don't like me?

I like you're story.

My original posting was not really concerning the question of whether or not OT Abilities/Paranormal/Psychic phenomena exist or even if people manifest the odd incident whilst on the Bridge.

I was wanting to know if any of the OT levels as they are delivered at the CoS PRODUCE OR RECOVER these abilities.

So far no one has been forth coming with any skills that are recovered/produced by the OT levels consistently and invariably.

 

[Andrew]

I actually thought there would be at least a few posts from people regarding recovered areas of knowledge.

OTVIII is supposed to address whole-track amnesia I believe. If this is accurate I would expect people to routinely recover whole fields of expertise that they were previous unskilled in. i.e. after completing the level they would be able to play musical instruments which they could not previously.

It should be noted that I'm only asking for the mundane here. One could rightly enquire as to knowledge and tech from other civilisations.

 

[OHTEEATE]

Demonstrable OT Abilities

You are hitting it right on the head when you say demonstrable OT abilities, because up to now there has been the excuse used that the pre-OT case diffuses all intention, so that on the "real" OT levels, starting with 8 and going on up with 9 and 10, there had better be some meat delivered to the table. The diners are NOT vegetarians, and are already pounding their forks and knives in unison. Set up with Super Power, with Ideal Orgs all full and cranking up, fully staffed, Flag ready to handle a huge rush, the Freewinds newly scrubbed, it's all going to get stalled out with Anonymous, or money collapse, or war, or whatever. 9 and 10 are the ultimate carrot. I wonder if anybody will ever do those levels?
I'm actually more worried about George Bush bombing Iran than anything the CofS has planned. The Iranians will not go quietly, and China and Russia will not let us take the entire mideast to be our gas station.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

Yes, they sure did keep upping the ante. Remember the story of the First Clear? So they had to keep coming up with reasons as to why the levels didn't do what they were alleged to do.

 

[Cat's Squirrel]

This incdent could be classed as "OT" but it came along time after I had left and I attribute the skill to other studies. In Scn terms it was real 8C.

I was doing security in a 24hour fast food outlet (things that make you go MMMM) that was reputedly rough (I had encountered this before), so I was there with another trainee.

A DB (degraded being, dunk bastard, whatever) came in an made a purchase and then sat down. He was taking really too long with his "meal" and discarding bits all over the floor.

My trainee was about to approach him to lead him out of the premises and I stopped him. "First rule. Do NOT engage in conversation with a drunk. You will be stuck there all night. Now watch and learn."

I looked straight at the guy and said in a voice that only my trainee could hear "You were just leaving, weren't you?" I then said to the other guy, "Now watch."

Within two minutes, the drunk tidied up his mess, walked soberly and purposefully out the door and looked around him as the drunkenness desceneded on him again, and he had no idea how he ended up back outside. Then all we had to do was pick a few things up off the floor and get staff to wipe down the table.

Do this count? I'm often invisible to the sensors on automatic doors, or maybe they just don't like me?

I take my hat off to you there. That's the kind of ability that's really worth having.

 

[Voltaire's Child]

To me this isn't interestingly a question of whether or not alleged OTs are subjected to criticism or whether that criticism is fair. The issue is whether the OTs have the powers they believe they have. This is a matter of fact independent of anyone's criticisms, beliefs or powers.

In my own experience arguing with certain Scientologists on this subject I've often received these stock answers:

(1) "What's true is what's true for you."
(2) "Why are you trying to make me wrong?"
(3) "Don't evaluate for me."
(4) "Don't invalidate my gains."

Here are my stock replies.

(1) See Sporkful #1 in the "Your Story" section. (Tl;dr: if you believe (1) try doing some semantics. Philosophize moar.)

(2) It is not in my power to make you wrong. Nor is it in your power to make yourself right. Whether or not you have the powers you say you have is a matter of fact which we can try to establish (come to know) but cannot directly decide. In other words the question concerning the powers is not open to stipulation (or as you put it "postulation"). We can perhaps discover the answer; we cannot invent it.

(3), (4) There's a difference between questioning and denying. It's possible for someone to issue a denial in the spirit of raising a question. (Denials for the sake of the argument.) Someone who questions whether there are OT powers is not automatically committed to the view that there aren't any.

They do have stock replies, that's true.

But then again, maybe some of them feel backed into a corner. They know they love Scn. They feel they got a lot out of it. They do know that as OTs, they aren't doing or being the things they were promised but they still are glad they did it, they've been indoctrinated into believing that there're reasons why they aren't stable/functioning, etc OTs, like the REAL OT levels start after OTVIII, or it's some failing on their part. And then someone asks them about it.

I guess I could nutshell that by saying that they're being defensive.

I personally wouldn't give any OT too much attention on that score unless they themselves brought up how great it is to be OT. If they do, then I don't feel at all sorry for them if they are asked what they can do or are they fully exterior or whatever and then they feel defensive. But if they aren't the ones bringing it up and someone else is- well, then that someone gets what he or she gets.

 

[DartSmohen]

I left alt.clearing.technology because the owner was deeply insulting to anyone who thought it was absurd for him to hold the view that you shouldn't have to demonstrate "OT Abilities".  He insisted it would be an integrity break and an overt of magnitude to demonstrate such abilities, and that it could, in fact, get the demonstrator targeted for destruction or abuse or whatever by governments or evil spiritual agencies.I consider that nothing more than a cop-out.  I said so, and he assigned me treason.  Apparently, he doesn't understand ethics, and doesn't like having his bluff called.Eternally.

Getting Homer to admit he could be wrong about something; Now THAT would be an OT Ability.

 

[Spork]

They do have stock replies, that's true.

But then again, maybe some of them feel backed into a corner. They know they love Scn. They feel they got a lot out of it. They do know that as OTs, they aren't doing or being the things they were promised but they still are glad they did it, they've been indoctrinated into believing that there're reasons why they aren't stable/functioning, etc OTs, like the REAL OT levels start after OTVIII, or it's some failing on their part. And then someone asks them about it.

I guess I could nutshell that by saying that they're being defensive.

I personally wouldn't give any OT too much attention on that score unless they themselves brought up how great it is to be OT. If they do, then I don't feel at all sorry for them if they are asked what they can do or are they fully exterior or whatever and then they feel defensive. But if they aren't the ones bringing it up and someone else is- well, then that someone gets what he or she gets.

Here's my personal take (warning, I'm about to ramble a bit).

Over the years I've discovered I'm absolute rubbish at having decent conversations with Scientologists (especially ones in my family). I don't think I'm improving either! Clearly it's more than half my fault. I notice that lots of other Anons are so much better at (reasonably) persuasive discussion even with Scientologists they don't even know.

Some of this may be a matter of conversational style, tone and so on. The rest of it probably derives from fundamental philosophical differences, such as an inclination on my part to scepticism, self-doubt and a belief that it's a hallmark of rationality to demand an elevated standard of proof. I would not exactly say that a Scientologist has to be "gullible" to believe s/he has OT powers. I would say that such a person is not referring his/her own "observation" to a very high level of scrutiny. In other words, to me the OT issue isn't only a question of powers, it's a question of methodology; of epistemic scruples; of care and strictness when it comes to investigating and theorizing about the (possible) phenomena. (However certain a person may subjectively feel about having the OT powers, feeling certain isn't the same as actually being certain, and being certain is not a purely subjective affair.)

I find further philosophical differences in background reading. It's easy to find Scientologists who, like Hubbard, have some sympathy for Eastern philosophy (mysticism, Buddhism etc). I'm yet to meet a _single_ Scientologist who has capably practiced Western philosophy in the modern Anglo-American style -- the logically-oriented "analytic" tradition which begins with Aristotle, resumes in earnest with Frege and Russell and is going stronger than ever right now. Nowadays it's a fairly technical area, with the formalization of logic to a mathematical degree of rigour, and the application of the tools of modern logic to clarify theorizing.

A strong strain in this tradition is philosophical scepticism, as prefigured in the late Academy (after Plato), extensively reported by Sextus Empiricus, then picked up by Hume who imparted it to Russell and Wittgenstein. A fair amount of what goes on in contemporary Western philosophy is either scepticism or somebody's answer to it.

I don't think it's a coincidence that nobody (so far as I'm aware) who is seriously interested in this intellectual tradition -- I mean, is actively working in the field -- finds Scientology very attractive. But why is this? There is some overlap in subject matter. Hubbard wrote about traditional philosophical subjects, such as the nature of certainty, truth, the self, how language works and so on. Why do serious philosophers in the analytic tradition follow Plato, Aristotle and their heirs, and not L. Ron Hubbard?

My own view is that Scientology is absolutely hopeless at addressing much of what it would like to have as its own subject. It raises perplexing questions and then issues summary answers in a wholly doctrinaire way, without research or investigation on the part of its students. The standard of proof is abysmal. Hubbard's answers amount to mere unargued dogmatizing. (It doesn't help that they're often poorly stated or incoherent.) When the rare person happens to agree with him ("has observed it personally to be true"), that may help to build consensus -- it adds another dogmatist to the ranks -- but it does nothing to get us closer to the truth.

Some people are attracted to Scientology because they have "deep disquietudes" (in Wittgenstein's phrase): they feel the pull of the "big questions", often with urgency. Jason Beghe relates how he used to gaze into the mirror each morning and ask himself, "Who am I really?" What sort of being am I?

People have deep philosophical questions. Scientology betrays these people by selling them shallow pseudophilosophical answers.

I think that the Scientologists who feel "backed into a corner" by aggressive counterargument -- who feel personally threatened by sceptical inquiry -- are merely experiencing a symptom of Scientology's pseudointellectual betrayal. Hubbard's off-the-cuff (but expensive!) answers to the deep questions are totally unsatisfying to the majority of people who care about those questions and take them very seriously. Despite all the conditioning, committed Scientologists invariably catch a glimpse of this unsatisfactoriness.

 

[Moonchild]

Re. Spork's post no. 133 this thread:

As somebody kindly replied to me in another thread recently...I concur.

In brief, and IMHO, taking the position that the human mind has the potential for both rationality and imagination, I would think the best results in problem-solving may be obtained by a balanced application of these faculties..."a priori" and "a posteriori" thinking in some intelligent ratio.

The construction of such a ratio must surely require the employment of scepticism as an intellectual tool?

Think I'm just agreeing with you here.

 

[dchoiceisalwaysrs]

Hi Spork


I find further philosophical differences in background reading. It's easy to find Scientologists who, like Hubbard, have some sympathy for Eastern philosophy (mysticism, Buddhism etc). I'm yet to meet a _single_ Scientologist who has capably practiced Western philosophy in the modern Anglo-American style -- the logically-oriented "analytic" tradition which begins with Aristotle, resumes in earnest with Frege and Russell and is going stronger than ever right now. Nowadays it's a fairly technical area, with the formalization of logic to a mathematical degree of rigour, and the application of the tools of modern logic to clarify theorizing.

A strong strain in this tradition is philosophical scepticism, as prefigured in the late Academy (after Plato), extensively reported by Sextus Empiricus, then picked up by Hume who imparted it to Russell and Wittgenstein. A fair amount of what goes on in contemporary Western philosophy is either scepticism or somebody's answer to it.

I don't think it's a coincidence that nobody (so far as I'm aware) who is seriously interested in this intellectual tradition -- I mean, is actively working in the field -- finds Scientology very attractive. But why is this? There is some overlap in subject matter. Hubbard wrote about traditional philosophical subjects, such as the nature of certainty, truth, the self, how language works and so on. Why do serious philosophers in the analytic tradition follow Plato, Aristotle and their heirs, and not L. Ron Hubbard?

My own view is that Scientology is absolutely hopeless at addressing much of what it would like to have as its own subject. It raises perplexing questions and then issues summary answers in a wholly doctrinaire way, without research or investigation on the part of its students. :thumbsup

..........................

Spork, you have reminded me of the learning curve that I went through as I darted in and out of the "Great Books of the Western World", especially Plato and Socrates amongst others.

Of course, LRH being a great philospher, Physicist, et al, precluded my need for any further evaluations, as it had all been done and wrapped up. The Bridge had been constructed and was it was only my duty to travel it, arrive at the other end and then assist others across to the land of TRUTH REVEALED.

Freed now , I am interested in travelling the road you mentioned as I want to see what bridge it can build and to where that bridge can lead.

Life is a series of journeys, and it appears scientology was a big detour.

Onward ho, to visit the next destinations.

Do you recommend any tour guides?

 

[Moonchild]

Most of the comments thus far in this thread seem to deal (not unreasonably) with OT abilities in terms of knocking hats off, exteriorisation, placing intentions in others etc.....fair enough.

There's something else I'd like to speculate about, concerning the position we all seem to be in on this planet right now.

One of the reasons (back in my earliest Scn days) that I suspended my disbelief...shelved my doubts and awkward questions, which in retrospect was a grave error and let myself get dragged down the rabbit hole was the promise of escape from the endless merry-go-round of birth, life, death, rebirth...the whole "earthly re-incarnation" bit.

I have a specific personal issue here and I would bet a pizza or two that I'm not alone.

I imagine all of us know what it's like to love someone, and be loved in return. And yet, the other certainty of life in the mortal coil (apart from our grudgeless and willing financial contributions to our respective governments... ) is that sooner or later, that terrible day will dawn when you have to say goodbye...for example to a partner you've spent most of your life with.

And if you accept the "past-life" notions, how many times has this happened in the past? Who was my wife 100 years ago, or 200... 1000...da-di-dah? And I can't even remember their names. I just happen to find that upsetting...the lady I've been married to for upwards of thirty years now; my friend, lover, soulmate and confidante. In my next life, if there be such a thing, presumably I won't remember her name either...let alone our moments of joy and tenderness...those daft comical moments together that people share when they're in love with each other.

Without getting too "wet" about it suffice to say it's an important issue with me; I thought part of the "promise" of Scn was the (eventual) escape from the business of having your memory deleted and being implanted with goals in the between-lives area to keep you busy for the next 80 years or whatever till you go round again...yet again.

I would have thought the supreme OT abilty would be freedom from that process...from the clutch of whatever powers-that-be that keep us on this tread-mill...I mean bugger knocking hats off...who cares?

Don't let me mislead you here; for me mortal life is basically OK, more up than down...substantially-so really, but this thing about separation from loved-ones is a button... a big one.

Is there a point on the Bridge at which one is supposed to be free of all this? Maybe I've just missed it but it doesn't seem to have been mentioned.

Doubtless there are those reading this post more technically-aware than my self to whom the content may seem ingenuous...it's just something I've needed to air for a long time y'know?

I beg your indulgence....

 

[Good twin]

Most of the comments thus far in this thread seem to deal (not unreasonably) with OT abilities in terms of knocking hats off, exteriorisation, placing intentions in others etc.....fair enough.

There's something else I'd like to speculate about, concerning the position we all seem to be in on this planet right now.

One of the reasons (back in my earliest Scn days) that I suspended my disbelief...shelved my doubts and awkward questions, which in retrospect was a grave error and let myself get dragged down the rabbit hole was the promise of escape from the endless merry-go-round of birth, life, death, rebirth...the whole "earthly re-incarnation" bit.

I have a specific personal issue here and I would bet a pizza or two that I'm not alone.

I imagine all of us know what it's like to love someone, and be loved in return. And yet, the other certainty of life in the mortal coil (apart from our grudgeless and willing financial contributions to our respective governments... ) is that sooner or later, that terrible day will dawn when you have to say goodbye...for example to a partner you've spent most of your life with.

And if you accept the "past-life" notions, how many times has this happened in the past? Who was my wife 100 years ago, or 200... 1000...da-di-dah? And I can't even remember their names. I just happen to find that upsetting...the lady I've been married to for upwards of thirty years now; my friend, lover, soulmate and confidante. In my next life, if there be such a thing, presumably I won't remember her name either...let alone our moments of joy and tenderness...those daft comical moments together that people share when they're in love with each other.

Without getting too "wet" about it suffice to say it's an important issue with me; I thought part of the "promise" of Scn was the (eventual) escape from the business of having your memory deleted and being implanted with goals in the between-lives area to keep you busy for the next 80 years or whatever till you go round again...yet again.

I would have thought the supreme OT abilty would be freedom from that process...from the clutch of whatever powers-that-be that keep us on this tread-mill...I mean bugger knocking hats off...who cares?

Don't let me mislead you here; for me mortal life is basically OK, more up than down...substantially-so really, but this thing about separation from loved-ones is a button... a big one.

Is there a point on the Bridge at which one is supposed to be free of all this? Maybe I've just missed it but it doesn't seem to have been mentioned.

Doubtless there are those reading this post more technically-aware than my self to whom the content may seem ingenuous...it's just something I've needed to air for a long time y'know?

I beg your indulgence....

Yes, Moonchild. This really is the elephant in the room when we give up all belief and hope for OT. I find that grasping for substitute philosophy isn't really working for me. At least not yet. I just keep breathing in as much life as I can that is concrete and observably real. Then I remember to breathe out. I just keep experiencing what I'm feeling and trust that things will be okay and continue to get better. Real life is beautiful. Reaching for the fairy tale kept real life beyond my comprehension. Anyway, I ramble on here. I get ya' Moonchild. Thank you for stating the obvious. Maybe the simplicity is the truth. Maybe love does conquer all. I hope so.

 

[Moonchild]

Saintly, psychic, OT- etc- phenomena/abilities/powers- it's all the same thing.

And one thing that those aren't- is scientific.

Fair comment Fluffy. It's just that somewhere or other, in DMSMH or SOS, probably the former, LRH characterises Dianetics as "a precision science" on a par with physics or chemistry. I'm making perhaps the ingenuous assumption that that assessment was meant to apply to Scn. also?

With all the emphasis in Scn. about word-clearing etc., "science" means what it means y'know?

Pls don't take this comment as a "stuff it back to you", that is absolutely NOT my meaning; I'm agreeing with you, just observing the unwitting irony of LRH's description ....

 

[Royal Prince Xenu]

That's b/c alot of the stories in the Advanced mags are preposterous. I'm not saying no one ever had any seemingly supernatural things happen to them. I wrote a couple of my own in a post on here. What I AM saying is that if you are going to CLAIM that you are an OT, please put up or stfu and dispense with the lame excuses. B/c I've had quite enough of sky-high rhetoric and big talk. I would think we all have.

I have read some of the "preposterous" stories in older Advance! magazines, and I liked them. It occurs to me, that if the money hadn't been the priority, and mass culture of "believers" would eventually manifest something of an OT nature.

I have known for years of "Spoon-bending parties" where people bring along their cutlery and chant "Bend, Bend, Bend". The real challenge after achieving metal, is to move to plastic--if you try to fake it, the plastic will snap, and there are people all over the world who supposedly achieve the talent individually.

What I want to know, when reading these sorts of stories, is how come the group doesn't try for James Randi's $1M challenge?

 

[Andrew]

Most of the comments thus far in this thread seem to deal (not unreasonably) with OT abilities in terms of knocking hats off, exteriorisation, placing intentions in others etc.....fair enough.

There's something else I'd like to speculate about, concerning the position we all seem to be in on this planet right now.

One of the reasons (back in my earliest Scn days) that I suspended my disbelief...shelved my doubts and awkward questions, which in retrospect was a grave error and let myself get dragged down the rabbit hole was the promise of escape from the endless merry-go-round of birth, life, death, rebirth...the whole "earthly re-incarnation" bit.

I have a specific personal issue here and I would bet a pizza or two that I'm not alone.

I imagine all of us know what it's like to love someone, and be loved in return. And yet, the other certainty of life in the mortal coil (apart from our grudgeless and willing financial contributions to our respective governments... ) is that sooner or later, that terrible day will dawn when you have to say goodbye...for example to a partner you've spent most of your life with.

And if you accept the "past-life" notions, how many times has this happened in the past? Who was my wife 100 years ago, or 200... 1000...da-di-dah? And I can't even remember their names. I just happen to find that upsetting...the lady I've been married to for upwards of thirty years now; my friend, lover, soulmate and confidante. In my next life, if there be such a thing, presumably I won't remember her name either...let alone our moments of joy and tenderness...those daft comical moments together that people share when they're in love with each other.

Without getting too "wet" about it suffice to say it's an important issue with me; I thought part of the "promise" of Scn was the (eventual) escape from the business of having your memory deleted and being implanted with goals in the between-lives area to keep you busy for the next 80 years or whatever till you go round again...yet again.

I would have thought the supreme OT abilty would be freedom from that process...from the clutch of whatever powers-that-be that keep us on this tread-mill...I mean bugger knocking hats off...who cares?

Don't let me mislead you here; for me mortal life is basically OK, more up than down...substantially-so really, but this thing about separation from loved-ones is a button... a big one.

Is there a point on the Bridge at which one is supposed to be free of all this? Maybe I've just missed it but it doesn't seem to have been mentioned.

Doubtless there are those reading this post more technically-aware than my self to whom the content may seem ingenuous...it's just something I've needed to air for a long time y'know?

I beg your indulgence....

In earlier years I had assumed that the OT levels, specifically OTVIII (at least part of the rundown is geared towards handling amnesia on the whole track) would address this.

In fact the main attribute promoted is "Freedom from the trap" & "Escape the endless Birth-Death cycle".

These are nice phrases but what do they specifically mean? How do you know when you have achieved this? What happens when you do?

Surely as part of achieving this one would regain his whole track memory?

LRH deliberately threw in the nice control point of "You only have this brief breath in Eternity" to achieve the above. (Limited time offer! Sale must end soon!)

Having not done these levels I can only ask the question of those who have.

Have these levels achieved this as an end result?

So far, no-one seems willing to say to much. Perhaps it is fear of ridicule, perhaps they aren't interested in sharing or believe the enquiries are insincere.

From my limited interaction with people on this planet I can't say that I have met someone who has achieved these states as far as I could tell.

By all accounts LRH didn't seem to be living a life that reflected that he had achieved this and he was supposed to be the one marking the path for others to follow. But I wasn't there and I haven't walked the path so I can only guess.

I have no doubt that people have achieved benefits from doing these levels. The question is, "Has the product delivered in any way on the sales pitch?"