Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
Stennie,
I'm not sure. It may've been because of the kitties.
I'm not sure. It may've been because of the kitties.
OTIII?
- Thread starter Terril park
- Start date
S
Sten-Arne
Guest
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
Sten,
I wrote the above to keep things light. I simply am not going to get into a fight with you about the OT materials or anything else. I like you, I like this board, and I just don't want to do that.
But if you want a serious answer, no, I don't believe in bts. But I think something is there on the OT levels, something that does get reached. Now, exactly what it is or how it strikes any chord within a person when (I personally think) that the stuff about the DC8s and Xenu aren't true- I don't know. I just know that many of us experienced something real.
I was brought up Catholic, as you may remember. I remember discussing literal vs allegorical truth re the bible. Perhaps there's something like that with the OT levels from III to VII.
In any event, most of Scn is about postulates (decisions) and considerations. This interests me far more than some far flung story about volcanos and evil overlords.
I hope that you will not take this amiss. I want to be able to discuss things with you but given what you've been writing, well, I'm avoiding flame wars and "you're deluded" type stuff and anything I see heading in that direction will be deflected with a discussion about kitties.
I wrote the above to keep things light. I simply am not going to get into a fight with you about the OT materials or anything else. I like you, I like this board, and I just don't want to do that.
But if you want a serious answer, no, I don't believe in bts. But I think something is there on the OT levels, something that does get reached. Now, exactly what it is or how it strikes any chord within a person when (I personally think) that the stuff about the DC8s and Xenu aren't true- I don't know. I just know that many of us experienced something real.
I was brought up Catholic, as you may remember. I remember discussing literal vs allegorical truth re the bible. Perhaps there's something like that with the OT levels from III to VII.
In any event, most of Scn is about postulates (decisions) and considerations. This interests me far more than some far flung story about volcanos and evil overlords.
I hope that you will not take this amiss. I want to be able to discuss things with you but given what you've been writing, well, I'm avoiding flame wars and "you're deluded" type stuff and anything I see heading in that direction will be deflected with a discussion about kitties.
Hi Fluffy-one. I don't mind a serious discussion with you about OTIII. I posted on another thread about my experience of auditing the Happiness Rundown. This was a major stepping-stone towards my disenchantment with the tech. What I observered was a certain self-fulfilling prophecy about it. People were told certain things to expect, accompanied by a secret EP, which the promo told them was confidential. They almost always experienced what they had been told to expect and it was almost as if the mystery of the EP caused a vacuum where they originated things that were in the Promo for the rundown. They did also usually voice the secret EP, but also originated the non-secret stuff, in the absence of a published Grade Chart EP.
This made me question the extent that auditing might be hypnotic.
Maybe something is similar about OTIII? People are told it is deadly, they are warned of the consequences of exposure to the materials.
Were the people you know, who saw it on the Internet and got sick, scientologists who'd had auditing or raw public who hadn't?
I wonder if secrecy causes a sort of space or vacuum where the person puts into it what they do know about the subject? This might be why some people got sick, because they were told they would!
This made me question the extent that auditing might be hypnotic.
Maybe something is similar about OTIII? People are told it is deadly, they are warned of the consequences of exposure to the materials.
Were the people you know, who saw it on the Internet and got sick, scientologists who'd had auditing or raw public who hadn't?
I wonder if secrecy causes a sort of space or vacuum where the person puts into it what they do know about the subject? This might be why some people got sick, because they were told they would!
S
Sten-Arne
Guest
Well Fluffy one, we just have to agree to disagree about it all I think. Since I do not believe in past lives or life after death at all, souls, thetans, etc.
Meatball as Homer would call us, but that's alright. I Like you too fluffy one honestly, and I do not want this board to become a flame party either.
However, I will not refrain myself from commenting at times, as you might have noticed.
Peace OH fluffy one
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
I did post something else to you a minute ago, Sten, THEN I saw this.
I would hope you wouldn't leave the forum, but it's yr decision.
I hope I wasn't too mean on that other thread.
FYI, I do think there're other things in life besides Scn that are or may be beneficial...
I would hope you wouldn't leave the forum, but it's yr decision.
I hope I wasn't too mean on that other thread.
FYI, I do think there're other things in life besides Scn that are or may be beneficial...
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
Hey, Lionheart,
Could be fun to really get into a discussion re OT and other auditing...
Romuva,
I do think that Hubbard saw some people get restimm'ed, that he got badly restimm'ed, and he thought that it would happen to everyone.
Like anything else, though, one size does not fit all and it did end up sounding like a boogeyman/voodoo type thing.
I think it didn't start out that way but I think that its current use as voodoo curse may not be unintentional.
Could be fun to really get into a discussion re OT and other auditing...
Romuva,
I do think that Hubbard saw some people get restimm'ed, that he got badly restimm'ed, and he thought that it would happen to everyone.
Like anything else, though, one size does not fit all and it did end up sounding like a boogeyman/voodoo type thing.
I think it didn't start out that way but I think that its current use as voodoo curse may not be unintentional.
Romuva
Patron Meritorious
yeah ,it is a mystery Fluffy with Hubbard.It would of been good if somebody
had really got into his head and saw how he ticked.Maybe somebody
did and one day we'll know more about ole LRH.
I still to this day don't really believe in Scientology and Hubbard but
after being here ,I respect people's right to believe and practice in
Scientology.I'm just not on the COS bandwagon but it doesn't seem
like too many people are anyway.
had really got into his head and saw how he ticked.Maybe somebody
did and one day we'll know more about ole LRH.
I still to this day don't really believe in Scientology and Hubbard but
after being here ,I respect people's right to believe and practice in
Scientology.I'm just not on the COS bandwagon but it doesn't seem
like too many people are anyway.
Some people did, get into his head, I think. David Mayo and Otto Reus for example will have done so to some extent as his auditor and/or C/S. But they seem to be honouring the auditor's code in not disclosing secrets divulged in session, which although maybe inconvenient, is in fact wonderful, isn't it?
An idea I've had to further understand LRH's intentions and motives would be to study, more closely, LRH's affirmations, which are after all his origination of his state of case pre-scn.
Fluffy, I'm game to really discuss OT and auditing - what would you "really" like to say? I think Emma has created a space for us to do so.
Romuva
Patron Meritorious
Yeah,that's interesting Lionheart.
Yeah,It's just me.I have no respect for LRH.I always remember walking
into an org for the first time and seeing a bronze bust and an office set aside
for Hubbard.I remember I said to somebody "Why is that needed?" What's
the story with somebody that needs to be remembered like that?
With pictures and a bronze bust of himself? This guy was supposed
to be a man that solved most of the problems of the universe?
I don't know,I'm just not buying it.
It just reminds me of Lenin's tomb or the North Korean shrine.Just bizarre for me.
and I remember the person's reaction,like there was something really
wrong with me,not Hubbard.Sorry,something is just really wrong there.
I guess that's why I have alot of trouble looking at "The tech" seriously.
and understand people like Sten-Arne and where they're coming from.
I guess I agree with them mostly.
Yeah,It's just me.I have no respect for LRH.I always remember walking
into an org for the first time and seeing a bronze bust and an office set aside
for Hubbard.I remember I said to somebody "Why is that needed?" What's
the story with somebody that needs to be remembered like that?
With pictures and a bronze bust of himself? This guy was supposed
to be a man that solved most of the problems of the universe?
I don't know,I'm just not buying it.
It just reminds me of Lenin's tomb or the North Korean shrine.Just bizarre for me.
and I remember the person's reaction,like there was something really
wrong with me,not Hubbard.Sorry,something is just really wrong there.
I guess that's why I have alot of trouble looking at "The tech" seriously.
and understand people like Sten-Arne and where they're coming from.
I guess I agree with them mostly.
Hi Romuva
Personally I always found the bust and empty office rather made me cringe. I remember the first time I saw the empty office on my first day, I innocently asked if he sometimes came to the org. I didn't know he was banned from England - I was just a simple soul!
I can remember, years later feeling amused by new people's puzzlement over the empty office. That's the closest I got to accepting the nuttyness of it. Underneath I still knew it was nuts.
I personally think you are very wise to have "trouble looking at the tech seriously". I've thought about this a lot since leaving in '82. I don't think the answer is straightforward. I don't think it is absolutely black and white. That would be my point of departure from Sten-Arne's absolute rejection of it.
Fluffy, I'm not sure LRH observed other people's restim by OTIII and used this observation to form his opinion about it. When you listen to RJ67 he seems to have already formed the opinion about the power and danger of OTIII before anyone else had done it.
It did appear that he himself had become restimed by it, like you said and he gave the impression that he thought everyone would be. Although you can't discount the possibility that he was a black magician hypnotist who was cunningly implanting the idea that people would be heavily restimulated by OTII without actually believing the power of the OTIII data himself
It is certainly true that on RJ67 he appears to believe this OTII data himself. He either believed his own tech research or he was a good actor cynically manipulating people's minds. A third possibility is that like his mentor Aleister Crowley he believed in the power to restimulate, that his own black magic possessed and he used this restim power to manipulate people.
Yuk!
Personally I always found the bust and empty office rather made me cringe. I remember the first time I saw the empty office on my first day, I innocently asked if he sometimes came to the org. I didn't know he was banned from England - I was just a simple soul!
I can remember, years later feeling amused by new people's puzzlement over the empty office. That's the closest I got to accepting the nuttyness of it. Underneath I still knew it was nuts.
I personally think you are very wise to have "trouble looking at the tech seriously". I've thought about this a lot since leaving in '82. I don't think the answer is straightforward. I don't think it is absolutely black and white. That would be my point of departure from Sten-Arne's absolute rejection of it.
Fluffy, I'm not sure LRH observed other people's restim by OTIII and used this observation to form his opinion about it. When you listen to RJ67 he seems to have already formed the opinion about the power and danger of OTIII before anyone else had done it.
It did appear that he himself had become restimed by it, like you said and he gave the impression that he thought everyone would be. Although you can't discount the possibility that he was a black magician hypnotist who was cunningly implanting the idea that people would be heavily restimulated by OTII without actually believing the power of the OTIII data himself
It is certainly true that on RJ67 he appears to believe this OTII data himself. He either believed his own tech research or he was a good actor cynically manipulating people's minds. A third possibility is that like his mentor Aleister Crowley he believed in the power to restimulate, that his own black magic possessed and he used this restim power to manipulate people.
Yuk!
Romuva
Patron Meritorious
Lionheart,I know this will sound ridiculous but this is where I would
probably believe in something like scientology.
If a space ship landed tommorrow and an alien or some entity came out
and explained who they were and what they were in a previous lifetime
and explained it was scientology that had got them to this point.
Then I would probably conclude there was something to scientology
and it should be looked at.
Until then,preparing oneself on the OT levels is pretty much equivalent
to what a good christian does to prevent them form going to a so-called
hell.
I really do believe Hubbard knew this and he really felt he would live for
eternity.but did he spend years doing all the necessary steps that he prescribed?
Hey we'll see but I'm not holding my breath
I really don't think that little black kid with T.C. and D.M. is LRH...hey anything is possible but it's doubtful.
probably believe in something like scientology.
If a space ship landed tommorrow and an alien or some entity came out
and explained who they were and what they were in a previous lifetime
and explained it was scientology that had got them to this point.
Then I would probably conclude there was something to scientology
and it should be looked at.
Until then,preparing oneself on the OT levels is pretty much equivalent
to what a good christian does to prevent them form going to a so-called
hell.
I really do believe Hubbard knew this and he really felt he would live for
eternity.but did he spend years doing all the necessary steps that he prescribed?
Hey we'll see but I'm not holding my breath
I really don't think that little black kid with T.C. and D.M. is LRH...hey anything is possible but it's doubtful.
What a great comparison! I agree.
Alan
Gold Meritorious Patron
Sten-Arne is a child.......a spoilt brat......manipulative.....pouting......stamping his feet......emotional blackmailer......"If you don't believe as I do, I'm taking my ball home, so there!"
LRH was a child in many ways........often I would watch him behave like a spoilt brat.......petty.....spiteful.......mean.
As for OT III, everything done connected to that area was pre-meditated. I know this for a fact as he debriefed me on it, personally.
The book cover were whole-track implant pictures.......deliberately put on the covers to restimulate OT III.
The exploding volcano......was used to restimulate OT III.
To undo the Hubbard programming requires for many to find and run Hubbards design for you.
There is a simple way to do this........but it required that you be willing to run his goals and agendas as your mis-owned goals and agendas that you ran on others.
Unless you had very specific goals and a very specific design on how you wanted to create yourself as (identity) when you came in contact with Scio or Hubbards work......you would be cannon-fodder for Hubbards creation of you as (his identity for you.)
Most people are "created as identities" - few create themselves.
This is why "Own Goals" processing disappeared from Scio......it interfered with Hubbards "creation of you as?"!!!!
This is why it so hard to undo yourself from Scio.......you feel as if you are losing part of "you" and leaving it behind......in a way you are........but once you spot the source of how you lost that part of you and how you were being "created as" and how you then "created others as" - then the whole thing undoes.
Sovereignty and self determination means you live and own your own space, own time, own energy and own objects, (games. goals, identities, things, etc.).
Alan
LRH was a child in many ways........often I would watch him behave like a spoilt brat.......petty.....spiteful.......mean.
As for OT III, everything done connected to that area was pre-meditated. I know this for a fact as he debriefed me on it, personally.
The book cover were whole-track implant pictures.......deliberately put on the covers to restimulate OT III.
The exploding volcano......was used to restimulate OT III.
To undo the Hubbard programming requires for many to find and run Hubbards design for you.
There is a simple way to do this........but it required that you be willing to run his goals and agendas as your mis-owned goals and agendas that you ran on others.
Unless you had very specific goals and a very specific design on how you wanted to create yourself as (identity) when you came in contact with Scio or Hubbards work......you would be cannon-fodder for Hubbards creation of you as (his identity for you.)
Most people are "created as identities" - few create themselves.
This is why "Own Goals" processing disappeared from Scio......it interfered with Hubbards "creation of you as?"!!!!
This is why it so hard to undo yourself from Scio.......you feel as if you are losing part of "you" and leaving it behind......in a way you are........but once you spot the source of how you lost that part of you and how you were being "created as" and how you then "created others as" - then the whole thing undoes.
Sovereignty and self determination means you live and own your own space, own time, own energy and own objects, (games. goals, identities, things, etc.).
Alan
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(posh english accent...) As our colonial cousins are disposed to say, "way to go Big Al!"
(don't worry - that's just a mocked-up identity!
)Alan, can I clarify. Are you saying LRH actually told you OTIII was pre-meditatingly created to restimulate people?
I am well aware of his use of "Bank Buttons" on the book covers and a long time ago I decided the OT levels were his case (real or imagined) not necessarily other PCs cases.
I'm wondering if what you are saying here is going further than that. Are you saying he actually told you the whole fear/illness/dreadful importance of OTIII was knowingly made up by him to enslave scientologists? Are you saying he told you he was lying about BTs and the incidents and implants?
I am well aware of his use of "Bank Buttons" on the book covers and a long time ago I decided the OT levels were his case (real or imagined) not necessarily other PCs cases.
I'm wondering if what you are saying here is going further than that. Are you saying he actually told you the whole fear/illness/dreadful importance of OTIII was knowingly made up by him to enslave scientologists? Are you saying he told you he was lying about BTs and the incidents and implants?
Voltaire's Child
Fool on the Hill
Lionheart,
Re auditing, I think that it does help and is effective but that it does not always help every single person and every single situation. I do not believe the tech is always right, that its infallible.
I think that LRH and CofS then and now did and do exaggerate the claims re the effects of auditing.
However, I still think quite highly of it, per se.
It is my speculation that sometimes with some auditing, effects and changes come about serendipitously. IOW, some case gain is made but the reason may not be the one Hubbard thought was the reason. I am thinking of the OT stuff here.
I think there are other good methods out there but that most are not comparable to auditing.
I also don't see anything wrong with using other methods- I just would not ever suggest mixing methods as in doing a bunch of things in the same timeframe.
Re auditing, I think that it does help and is effective but that it does not always help every single person and every single situation. I do not believe the tech is always right, that its infallible.
I think that LRH and CofS then and now did and do exaggerate the claims re the effects of auditing.
However, I still think quite highly of it, per se.
It is my speculation that sometimes with some auditing, effects and changes come about serendipitously. IOW, some case gain is made but the reason may not be the one Hubbard thought was the reason. I am thinking of the OT stuff here.
I think there are other good methods out there but that most are not comparable to auditing.
I also don't see anything wrong with using other methods- I just would not ever suggest mixing methods as in doing a bunch of things in the same timeframe.
Alan
Gold Meritorious Patron
No, he believed what he saw.
No.
No, what I said was he deliberately used the symbols of OT III and the incident to restimulate.
He was adamant that everybody got implanted with OT III.
The problem I had was I did not get OT III.....thus OT III was a delusional event to me. Consequently LRH seemed delusional.
To do CC, OT I, OT II, OT III without getting the actual OT incidents and implants would now act as reverse processing of self implanting myself with the incident and implants as well as any entities I happened to grab hold of.
Definitely invalidative and evaluative SP Tech., that creates a false case and a false present time.:mad:
Alan
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programmer_guy
True Ex-Scientologist
Alan said:
Bent said pretty much the same thing - but in his own words.
(I'll see if I can find it - a quote.)